OK, Number Crunchers! How many HP DOES O-Chul have?!?!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The final spell to take down O-Chul was Ray of Frost, 0 Level Spell, 1d3 hp damage.

So, how much damage did O-Chul take when they dropped him in? Acid, spikes, sharkbite, more acid, another sharkbite, hitting the ground, and finally the 1d3 Xykon used to win his bet?

[Shades of Gray]

The problem is, all these rolls use dice. It can be anywhere from 10, to something like 80.

[Demented]

Immersion in acid does 10d6 damage per round.
Large sharks do 1d8+4 damage.
That vat looks to be 20 ft. tall. 2d6 damage, or 1d6 + 1d6 nonlethal if jump was deliberate*.

*While deliberate, unlikely to be nonlethal, or O-Chul is probably still in positive hitpoints despite Xykon's Ray of Frost.

[Porthos]

Well, according to some earlier on-the-back-of-a-napkin calculations I did much earlier, I came up with around 145hps. :smallsmile:

I'll edit in the link as soon as I can come up with it.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Don't forget it's an Acidborn shark, from Dungeonscape. It deals an extra 1d6 damage per bite.

[StoryKeeper]

Hmm... if I'm not mistaken, that means he took a minimum of 23 damage +whatever teh minimum damage for spikes is. The maximum damage would have been 99 + whatever the max damage for spikes is.

IF he got dropped to zero by the ray of frost that would put his maximum 99 + max spike damage.

Oh, and I'm assuming that he spent one round in the tank of acid, but I'd have to count up his actions to double check it.

[StoryKeeper]

Hmm... if I'm not mistaken, that means he took a minimum of 23 damage +whatever teh minimum damage for spikes is. The maximum damage would have been 99 + whatever the max damage for spikes is.

IF he got dropped to zero by the ray of frost that would put his maximum 99 + max spike damage + (CON modifier times level).

Oh, and I'm assuming that he spent one round in the tank of acid, but I'd have to count up his actions to double check it.

[Estelindis]

Shark - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm - large or huge?
Large = 1d8+4 damage per bite, average 8.5 (17 for two).
Huge = 2d6+7 damage per bite, average 14 (28 for two).
Personally, I think it's large, but I suppose it could be huge.

Spikes at the bottom of a pit are treated as daggers, each with a +10 attack bonus. The damage bonus for each spike is +1 per 10 feet of pit depth (to a maximum of +5). Each character who falls into the pit is attacked by 1d4 spikes.
Let's say O-Chul falls 20 ft. That's 1d4 x (1d4+2). The average of 1d4 is 2.5, and the average of 1d4+2 is 4.5. Multiply them and you get 11.25. So let's say the average damage O-Chul takes for falling on the spikes once is 11.

Immersion in acid: 10d6 per round, average 35 hp damage per round.

Round 1: O-Chul is thrown into acid, moves (hits bottom) and severs bonds. 35 acid damage applied. Falls on spikes for 11 damage. Total damage so far: 46.
Round 2: O-Chul moves (swims), is attacked for 8 damage (or 14 if the shark is huge, but I'm assuming it's large), and attacks the shark. 35 acid damage applied. Total damage so far: 89.
Round 3: O-Chul moves and gets to the top. He tries to get out, but fails. He is not totally immersed in acid for some time during this round. Does that mean he suffers less damage? I don't know. For the sake of argument, let's imagine he takes the full 35 points of acid damage. Total damage so far: 124.
Round 4: O-Chul goes down a bit, splashes at the shark, goes back up, and is attacked by the shark for 9 points of damage (supposed to be 8.5, but was 8 last time, so let's say 9 this time). We also apply 35 points of acid damage for total immersion. Total damage so far: 168.
Round 5: O-Chul falls 20 feet, suffering 7 points of damage (1d6 per 10ft). If we regard him as jumping deliberately, half of that would be non-lethal. For the sake of argument, let's assume he didn't have much choice as to the exact moment the shark dropped him. Possible round five now, but let's keep going... O-Chul gets up and attacks Xykon, who hits him with a ray of frost. The ray of frost *must* have done either 2 or 3 damage, because if it had only done 1 then O-Chul would have been on 0 hp and capable of one last action. Since the average damage from Ray of Frost is 1.5, let us say it did 2 points of damage. Total damage inflicted: 177.

This leads me to believe that O-Chul has 176 hp. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Didn't know that the acid-breathing template added 1d6 to the shark's bite attack. So now, adding 2d6 damage, for an average total of 7 damage, puts the total damage inflicted at 184, giving O-Chul 183 hp.

PS: Also just realised that I applied damage from 2.5 spikes to O-Chul when he was clearly hit by two. Average damage from two spikes is 9, which is two less than 11 (which I had originally)... So it's 182 inflicted, and 181 hp.

FINAL TOTAL: I now believe O-Chul has 181 hp. :smallbiggrin:

[EscherEnigma]

Hrm... well, we basically have acid damage, shark bite damage, and spike damage.

SRD says total immersion in acid is 10d6/round.

If the shark is basically a huge shark that breathes acid, it's bite is 2d6+7.

Spike traps (from the SRD) deal 1d4+X per spike, and normally 1d4 spikes hit. They also roll to hit the target, so they can crit (which is probably what happened with that chest spike).

So throw it all together, and you have...

Shark damage: 4d6+14
Spike damage: 3d4+3X (with X being between 0 and 5)
Acid damage: 10d6/round

add it together and we have... 4d6 + 3d4 + 14 + 3X + 10d6/round

So how many rounds is it?

[Porthos]

This leads me to believe that O-Chul has 176 hp. :)

He must have leveled up since the battle. :smallwink:

<I'd include my 145hp calculations from the Castle Explosion + Falling damage, but the server is far too slow right now :smallfrown: >

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Immersion in acid does 10d6 damage per round.


Um, where did you get that number? I looked for acid damage, but could only find Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr7AcidFogTrap) @ 2d6/round.

I'm probably wrong, but I'd like to know for sure...

[StoryKeeper]

Hmm... if I'm not mistaken, that means he took a minimum of 23 damage +whatever teh minimum damage for spikes is. The maximum damage would have been 99 + whatever the max damage for spikes is.

IF he got dropped to zero by the ray of frost that would put his maximum 99 + max spike damage + (CON modifier times level).

Oh, and I'm assuming that he spent one round in the tank of acid, but I'd have to count up his actions to double check it.

[jindra34]

He must have leveled up since the battle. :smallwink:

<I'd include my 145hp calculations from the Castle Explosion + Falling damage, but the server is far too slow right now :smallfrown: >

I would hope someone would level level up if the did that with any frequency for three months.

[Fitzclowningham]

If he is level 11, and maxed Con and rolled all 10s, he'd have 166 hp. A little luck on the die rolls in the tank, and he'd about have used them all. Which is to say I like your math, Estelindis. Chronos on the C&LG thread has the whole thing maxing out at around 108 hp. Since the whole idea of O-Chul is to watch him take incredibly punishing amounts of damage, I like your math better. Also because Hinjo said he was the toughest (?) of them all.

[Estelindis]

If he is level 11, and maxed Con and rolled all 10s, he'd have 166 hp. A little luck on the die rolls in the tank, and he'd about have used them all. Which is to say I like your math, Estelindis. Chronos on the C&LG thread has the whole thing maxing out at around 108 hp. Since the whole idea of O-Chul is to watch him take incredibly punishing amounts of damage, I like your math better. Also because Hinjo said he was the toughest (?) of them all.
Thank you very much! :smallsmile:


Um, where did you get that number? I looked for acid damage, but could only find Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr7AcidFogTrap) @ 2d6/round.

I'm probably wrong, but I'd like to know for sure...
For those wondering about the source of the acid damage info (as well as falling damage, incidentally), check this out: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

[Chronos]

The value I got was 104 ± 8.9. The main discrepancy between my number and the higher numbers in this thread is that I only count two rounds of full immersion plus one round of exposure to acid: Falling is a free action, not a move, and being half out of acid is not "total immersion".

That said, my number does look suspiciously low, especially since Hinjo (who survived a 30d6 Disintegrate) referred to O-Chul as "the toughest of us all".

[Pope Bravo]

I'd guess -9 HP.

[Paragon Badger]

DM: Okay, last thing that needs to be done, Jim... what's your feat selection for O-Chul?
Player: Level 1... Toughness and Toughness.
DM: ............Okay.
Player: Level 3... Toughness... Level 6: Toughness. Level 9: Toughness!

[Theodoriph]

DM: Okay, last thing that needs to be done, Jim... what's your feat selection for O-Chul?
Player: Level 1... Toughness and Toughness.
DM: ............Okay.
Player: Level 3... Toughness... Level 6: Toughness. Level 9: Toughness!



Toughness? Please!

O-Chul's definitely packing at least one of these :smallbiggrin: Maybe more.

*Dwarf’s Toughness [General] (he can take this one from level 6 on)
You are tougher than you were before.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +5.
Benefit: You gain +6 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

*Giant’s Toughness [General] (he'd have to be level 12 to take this one)
You are amazingly tough.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +8.
Benefit: You gain +9 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

*Dragon’s Toughness [General] (well...not this one)
You are incredibly tough.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +11.
Benefit: You gain +12 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.



Edit: Also, O'Chul may have taken 2 character flaws. He could get another 2 feats out of that at level 1.

[Chronos]

Don't forget it's an Acidborn shark, from Dungeonscape.(emphasis mine)

I hadn't realized that there was an Acidborn template from that specific book. I was assuming that it was just a random rule-of-cool acidbreathing shark, but given that there's specifically a template for it, in a book written by "any old hack", that's definitely the correct stats for the shark. So my figures should have at least that 2d6 added to them. Even with only two rounds of full immersion, as in my previous calculation, that brings us up to 111 ± 9.2 .

Theodoriph, don't forget about Improved Toughness, which gives you +1 per HD (better than the ones you posted, and available earlier).

[Theodoriph]

True...but he can only take that one once, right? :) And he can take it at level 1.

So if he takes toughness 3 times, and improved toughness at level 1 (and 2 flaws). Then he takes toughness at level 3. Dwarf's toughness as level 6 and Dwarf's toughness at level 9.

Well if he's level 11...that's 35 hp.

If he's level 12...he can throw in Giant's toughness for 45 hp.

If he then somehow maxed his dice rolls...that's 120 at level 12. And if he rolled a natural 18. That's another 48.

THat would be 213 hp right there.

At levels 4,8 and 12 he would put 1 point into con. That's another 12.

If he has a magic item granting a +3 bonus to con (not unreasonable for his level) that Xykon let him keep for kicks or through ignorance...that's another 24 (249 hp).

[Fitzclowningham]

As a 1st ed. guy who memorized everything, and who has been reading 3.5 like mad to try to stay on top of the comic, I'm going to be really relieved when 4ed comes out and I'm on a level playing field with everyone else in terms of rules geekery.*




*I know, the comic might/will probably stay 3.5. *sniff*.

[theinsulabot]

hold up here, i actually think some of those numbers are still low, that spike IMPALES o-chul, most of what i know about DnD came from you fine folks on these boards, but i seem to remember somebody mentioning impalement has completely seperate rules when that death knight shoved his sword and forearm through the guard captain. if thats true then he may have even higher then previously guessed at.

[Porthos]

Here's my Number Crunching from a few months back that suggests that O-Chul has at least 145 HP.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2892470&postcount=43


The real determiner for O-Chul's survivability was the actual explosion. On that we know next to nothing (what type of damage was it, did it allow a save, how much damage did it do, et ect), so it is almost pointless to debate it. But if we presume the castle had an 1 foot thick masonry wall, then it had 90 hit points, with hardness of 8 (making an affective 98 hp for an one shot affect) and a break DC of 35.

So lets say the blast did exactly 100 points of damage (it's a nice round number :smallsmile: ). Just for grins and giggles, let's have O-Chul fail the save. On the other hand, I'm going to propose that O-Chul got lucky on the 20d6 falling damage and rolled low (avg of 2.25 instead of 3.5). So that's a total of 145 points of damage taken.

I'm going to provide two examples for total HP O-Chul might have. One at 14th level and one at 13th. If he is 14th level, and if he rolled high for his HD (say an average of 7 instead of 5.5), then he would have 101 base HP at 14th level (remember PCs have max HP at first level :smallwink: ).

Furthermore, if O-Chul has a +3 CON (not unreasonable since he looks like he sees a lot of combat), then the HP total is raised to 143 HP:

10+13*7+14*3=143 HP (at 14th level)

Alternatively, if he is 13th level and has a +4 CON (suspect, but not unheard of at high level), then he can indeed be 13th level and survive:

10+12*7+13*4=146 HP (at 13th level)

In the first case, the blast and the fall puts him at -2 HP. He makes a stabilization roll and survives. Barely. In the second case, he is standing at exactly 1HP.

There's more analysis at the link (which also shows that the blast could have done up to 200 hps of damage, but O-Chul makes his save), but that's the core of it.

Of course I presumed a low roll on the 20d6 dam due to the fall. If it was the normal average of 3.5 per d6, then that's 20 more points of damage, or approximately 165 hp. Which is more or less what we're coming up with here.

Now how does O-Chul get to 165-175 hp's at 12th-14th level. Well with a high con, the right feats, and lots of good rolls, it's possible. Just goes to show how much fun DnD can be at times. :smallcool:

[factotum]

That said, my number does look suspiciously low, especially since Hinjo (who survived a 30d6 Disintegrate) referred to O-Chul as "the toughest of us all".

30d6 is only an average of 105hp of damage, and Redcloak could have rolled badly on the damage rolls. Or Hinjo might have made his Fort save, in which case he'd only have taken 5d6 damage.

[Kurald Galain]

30d6 is only an average of 105hp of damage, and Redcloak could have rolled badly on the damage rolls. Or Hinjo might have made his Fort save, in which case he'd only have taken 5d6 damage.

No, he definitely failed his fort save there, based on the fact that he was (mostly) unhurt before the spell hit, and extremely wounded (many red lines) and near-unconscious afterwards. That was no 5d6 damage. But Hinjo is quite plausibly higher level than O-Chul, anyway.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Bear in mind that the water may not be acidic.

Yes, I know it's an acid breathing shark. That doesn't necessarly mean it breaths acid all the time or has to live in acid. (Note: I can't check this as I can't access the references for the shark at work - ruddy content filters).

[hewhosaysfish]

Bear in mind that the water may not be acidic.

Yes, I know it's an acid breathing shark. That doesn't necessarly mean it breaths acid all the time or has to live in acid. (Note: I can't check this as I can't access the references for the shark at work - ruddy content filters).

If the shark is not currently breathing acid then what prompted the roach to comment on the the fact that it could? How did the roach know that it could breath acid?

Perhaps, I hear you cry, the roach was metagaming. But then the incredulous comment was surely on the oddity of using such a shark in this death-trap (rather than the oddity of such a shark existing at all). In that case, the response should haver been more along the lines of "We're planning on filling the tank with acid next-time" or "You don't have to change the water as often as you do with the water-breathing kind" or something along those lines.

Also, it's green, rather than blue. Hardly conclusive in the real world (curse reality, always making things difficult for us) but in a stick figure web comic?

[factotum]

Bear in mind that the water may not be acidic.


Then why was O-Chul stunned after falling into the water? The platform can't have been more than 10 feet above the surface, and there's no way a pathetic 1d6 of falling damage would have hurt O-Chul enough to make him sink helplessly onto the spikes at the bottom of the pool!

[Jarwy]

For those wondering about the source of the acid damage info (as well as falling damage, incidentally), check this out: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

That's just silly. According to that set of rules, an unlucky level 1 wizard with constitution 10 could kick it just by standing around out of shade on a sunny day at summer for 1 hour and 10 minutes. :smallamused:

And don't even get me started about sauna... :smallsigh: (damn, we Finnish must've an uber CON to survive that repeatedly)

[Amon Star]

I'd guess -9 HP.

You mean from the Ray of Frost? Even on a crit, it only does a max of 6 damage.
Toughness? Please!

O-Chul's definitely packing at least one of these :smallbiggrin: Maybe more.

*Dwarf’s Toughness [General] (he can take this one from level 6 on)
You are tougher than you were before.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +5.
Benefit: You gain +6 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

*Giant’s Toughness [General] (he'd have to be level 12 to take this one)
You are amazingly tough.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +8.
Benefit: You gain +9 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

*Dragon’s Toughness [General] (well...not this one)
You are incredibly tough.
Prerequisite: Base Fort save bonus +11.
Benefit: You gain +12 hit points.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.



Edit: Also, O'Chul may have taken 2 character flaws. He could get another 2 feats out of that at level 1.

Are those Feats still in 3.5? I haven't seen them.
As a 1st ed. guy who memorized everything, and who has been reading 3.5 like mad to try to stay on top of the comic, I'm going to be really relieved when 4ed comes out and I'm on a level playing field with everyone else in terms of rules geekery.*




*I know, the comic might/will probably stay 3.5. *sniff*.

Not necessarily. Though the change may not be immediate.
hold up here, i actually think some of those numbers are still low, that spike IMPALES o-chul, most of what i know about DnD came from you fine folks on these boards, but i seem to remember somebody mentioning impalement has completely seperate rules when that death knight shoved his sword and forearm through the guard captain. if thats true then he may have even higher then previously guessed at.

Being impaled normally represents a crit or artistic licence. If the first, then that's only another D4+something damage.
That's just silly. According to that set of rules, an unlucky level 1 wizard with constitution 10 could kick it just by standing around out of shade on a sunny day at summer for 1 hour and 10 minutes. :smallamused:

And don't even get me started about sauna... :smallsigh: (damn, we Finnish must've an uber CON to survive that repeatedly)

There are many joys to the D&D system taht don't make sense. i remember the days when the biggest killer of first level wizards where household cats. :biggrin:

[Jarwy]

There are many joys to the D&D system taht don't make sense. i remember the days when the biggest killer of first level wizards where household cats. :biggrin:

It's pretty funny, I have to admit. :smallwink:

[Manga Shoggoth]

If the shark is not currently breathing acid then what prompted the roach to comment on the the fact that it could? How did the roach know that it could breath acid?

Perhaps, I hear you cry, the roach was metagaming. But then the incredulous comment was surely on the oddity of using such a shark in this death-trap (rather than the oddity of such a shark existing at all). In that case, the response should haver been more along the lines of "We're planning on filling the tank with acid next-time" or "You don't have to change the water as often as you do with the water-breathing kind" or something along those lines.


Nope: the roach is commenting on the existance of the shark - read its collegue's response.


Also, it's green, rather than blue. Hardly conclusive in the real world (curse reality, always making things difficult for us) but in a stick figure web comic?

In a word: Algae.

We used to have a fish tank. Used to spend ages scraping the stuff off the glass...


Then why was O-Chul stunned after falling into the water? The platform can't have been more than 10 feet above the surface, and there's no way a pathetic 1d6 of falling damage would have hurt O-Chul enough to make him sink helplessly onto the spikes at the bottom of the pool!

Where does it show him being stunned? Closing your eyes on entering water is a reflex action. His eyes are open in the next panel.

(And in real life hitting water from a height of a few feet could stun if you hit at the right angle. From 10 feet you would have a serious risk of injury - belly flopping, anyone?)


There are many joys to the D&D system taht don't make sense. i remember the days when the biggest killer of first level wizards where household cats. :biggrin:

I remember an AD&D campaign where a first(/second?) level magic user's familliar was a cat. Someone stabbed it and the permanent hit point loss took him to zero or negatives...

[Ascension]

That doesn't necessarly mean it breaths acid all the time or has to live in acid.

Actually, it does. The acidborn template takes away the ability to breathe water... so unless the shark is holding its breath the entire time, that's acid.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, it does. The acidborn template takes away the ability to breathe water... so unless the shark is holding its breath the entire time, that's acid.

Oh come on, everybody knows that a green liquid can only be acid, just like a red liquid can only* be lava :smallbiggrin:


* except in that one Simpsons episode

[Manga Shoggoth]

Actually, it does. The acidborn template takes away the ability to breathe water... so unless the shark is holding its breath the entire time, that's acid.

Fair enough. As I said, I can't access the documents at work on account of an overzealous content filter that screams "Inappropriate browsing" at nearly every interesting site in existance. How it has missed banning OOTS I do not know...

[Begle1]

Wasn't he impaled by two spikes? One went through his abdomen, but another one went through his foot. In D&D they can both do the same amount of damage.

[Alex Warlorn]

Wouldn't that mean that O-Chul is around level 18? To have an average of 184 HP?

[Draz74]

Wouldn't that mean that O-Chul is around level 18? To have an average of 184 HP?

O-chul probably has 20 Constitution and rolled really high on his hit dice (overall). And possibly has taken some Toughness feats too. There's nothing "average" about his ability to survive damage, as demonstrated earlier when the castle blew up.

[Craig1f]

O-chul probably has 20 Constitution and rolled really high on his hit dice (overall). And possibly has taken some Toughness feats too. There's nothing "average" about his ability to survive damage, as demonstrated earlier when the castle blew up.

O-Chul has taken "Badass" as a level 6 feat.

[Theodoriph]

Are those Feats still in 3.5? I haven't seen them.

They're in "Master's of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids and Rangers", though the feats can be taken by anyone who meets the requirements.

[Chronos]

O-Chul has taken "Badass" as a level 6 feat.Correction: Goodass. He is a paladin, after all.

[Estelindis]

Wouldn't that mean that O-Chul is around level 18? To have an average of 184 HP?
Not necessarily...

We know that O-Chul is lower level than Hinjo, who in turn is lower level than Miko was. "Class and Level Geekery" put Miko between 14th and 16th level. Hinjo is at least 11th level, since he has three attacks, and using Miko's level as an upper limit he could really be anything up to 15th and still be lower than her. Realistically, though, Hinjo has not been outstanding in combat. I don't think we can put him higher than 13th. (I mean, the PCs were 13th at the time of Hinjo's fight with Miko - witness Vaarsuvius's caster level with the giant soldiers - but at that level Roy kicked Miko's butt, whereas Hinjo was quite summarily whupped.) So let's say O-Chul is 12th or lower. Possibly 11th at the time of the battle but levelled up once during captivity? Or, more pessimistically, maybe he's still around 10th level.

Now, let us imagine that O-Chul maxed out his Con at first level (18), and raised it by one point each at levels 4 and 8. (Doesn't matter whether he reached 12 or not, because it wouldn't affect his overall modifier.) That would give him 20 Con, which is +5 hp per level. Let us also imagine that he has taken the Improved Toughness feat, which adds another hp per level. I do not think either of these assumptions are especially unreasonable, given his reputation as being the toughest paladin in the Sapphire Guard.

Now, working under these assumptions: if O-Chul is 10th level, he will have a minimum of 79 hp (10+9+60), an average of 119 hp, rounded down as always (10+49.5+60), and a maximum of 160 hp (10+90+60).

If O-Chul is 12th level (again, with 20 Con and Improved Toughness), he will have a minimum of 93 hp (10+11+72), an average of 142 hp, rounded down as always (10+60.5+72), and a maximum of 192 hp (10+110+72). This means that, if he was lucky with his hp rolls, he could conceivably have enough to take all the damage dished out in my rather generous estimate (generous from the point of view of rounds of full immersion, anyway).

If O-Chul were 18th level (ditto re. stats and feat), he would have a minimum of 135 hp (10+17+108), an average of 221 hp (10+93.5+108), and a maximum of hp 288 hp (10+170+108).

In order to have an average of 184 under these assumptions, he would have to be... (184 - 16 = 168... and 168 % 11.5 = 14.6...) ...14th or 15th level. Now, whoever said people don't use maths in real life? :smallbiggrin:


Correction: Goodass. He is a paladin, after all.
You, sir, are a legend! :)

[Twilight Jack]

I'm going to slot O-Chul at a measly 10th level, with Toughness and Improved Toughness as Feats and a maxed out Constitution score with increases at levels 4 and 8. That scores him 10d10+63, which averages out to 123 hp. But really, who in their right mind thinks O-Chul has anything resembling "average" hit points?

Put me down for hit points in the 140~ range. That's enough to survive the acid, the shark, and the spikes, but just barely. Also, it perfectly accounts for the explosion + the fall of three months prior.

[Estelindis]

The value I got was 104 ± 8.9. The main discrepancy between my number and the higher numbers in this thread is that I only count two rounds of full immersion plus one round of exposure to acid: Falling is a free action, not a move, and being half out of acid is not "total immersion".

That said, my number does look suspiciously low, especially since Hinjo (who survived a 30d6 Disintegrate) referred to O-Chul as "the toughest of us all".
Whatever about falling being a free action, there are other ways of observing the transitions between rounds. For instance, we see three wounds appear on O-Chul in panel 6, as he sinks through the acid: one on his head, one on his chest, and one on his hip. (First round of acid damage.) In panel 8, two more wounds appear on his head that were not there in panel 7 and look to be nothing to do with the spikes he's landed on. (Second round of acid damage.) As he swims away from the shark in panel 13 (first panel of the second page, we see some more wounds appear: one on the top of his head, which wasn't there when he was bitten by the shark, and one on his other hip. (Third round of acid damage.) I'm not too sure after that (he does spend a while not totally immersed, plus at this point he's got so many wounds it's hard to keep track). But it's a start at an alternate method of tracking, for what it's worth. Another one might be to look at the shark's actions: e.g. in the first round, he's chomping on the goblin, in the second he's attacking O-Chul, etc.

[Twilight Jack]

Whatever about falling being a free action, there are other ways of observing the transitions between rounds. For instance, we see three wounds appear on O-Chul in panel 6, as he sinks through the acid: one on his head, one on his chest, and one on his hip. (First round of acid damage.) In panel 8, two more wounds appear on his head that were not there in panel 7 and look to be nothing to do with the spikes he's landed on. (Second round of acid damage.) As he swims away from the shark in panel 13 (first panel of the second page, we see some more wounds appear: one on the top of his head, which wasn't there when he was bitten by the shark, and one on his other hip. (Third round of acid damage.) I'm not too sure after that (he does spend a while not totally immersed, plus at this point he's got so many wounds it's hard to keep track). But it's a start at an alternate method of tracking, for what it's worth. Another one might be to look at the shark's actions: e.g. in the first round, he's chomping on the goblin, in the second he's attacking O-Chul, etc.

I'm in agreement that O-Chul appears to spend a total of three rounds taking full damage from the acid.

[Kurald Galain]

O-Chul, described as the toughest paladin in the Azure Guard, could easily have a 20 constitution (18 natural, +2 level). And why not? Not every NPC paladin prioritizes their stats in the most optimal way for dealing damage.

Toughness is such a sucky feat that it really doesn't make much of a difference here. But 9d10 + 60 does, on average, surpass Chronos's 104 damage.

[renfrow]

One thing that is somewhat 'unrealistic' in this scenario is the fact that acids are water based, unless they are pure. Pure sulphuric acid is almost twice as dense as water, hydrochloric acid (not found pure, as it is a gas, hydrogen chloride mixed with water) at 40% is 20% denser than water, nitric acid 50% denser, acetic acid same density. So... even were he flung into the water like a spear he should have only sunk so far and jetted up to the surface. With proper timing, bending his body as he enters the vat, he should have gone only 2-4 feet down... No way should he have gotten close to the spikes, let alone been pierced completely through the torso.

Tom.

[Callista]

Don't see why this shouldn't be a water based acid. For simplicity, in D&D any liquid (barring things like tar and lava) has the same density as water anyhow. (Same rate of movement = same density.)

[T.Titan]

Let's say O-Chul falls 20 ft. That's 1d4 x (1d4+2). The average of 1d4 is 2.5, and the average of 1d4+2 is 4.5. Multiply them and you get 11.25.

Wait:

Falling into Water

Falls into water are handled somewhat differently. If the water is at least 10 feet deep, the first 20 feet of falling do no damage. The next 20 feet do nonlethal damage (1d3 per 10-foot increment). Beyond that, falling damage is lethal damage (1d6 per additional 10-foot increment).

Seeing how the acid was a liquid in which a shark could swim pretty well why would the fall do any dmg?

[Estelindis]

Wait:

Falling into Water

Falls into water are handled somewhat differently. If the water is at least 10 feet deep, the first 20 feet of falling do no damage. The next 20 feet do nonlethal damage (1d3 per 10-foot increment). Beyond that, falling damage is lethal damage (1d6 per additional 10-foot increment).

Seeing how the acid was a liquid in which a shark could swim pretty well why would the fall do any dmg?
That damage wasn't for falling, point blank. It was for falling on spikes. (As you can see in the comic, that clearly injured O-Chul.) The reason falling distance is important here is because it modifies the damage done by the spikes when one falls on them.

[Theodoriph]

Of course...the water (acid) would slow his fall quite a bit by the time he hit the bottom, so the norm for falling damage onto spikes doesn't apply.

[Estelindis]

Of course...the water (acid) would slow his fall quite a bit by the time he hit the bottom, so the norm for falling damage onto spikes doesn't apply.
Kindly show me the rules to support this, if you please. :smallsmile:

[Theodoriph]

I don't believe there are any rules for falling onto spikes 18 feet beneath the surface of acid. The DM would have to come up with some numbers. Personally, as a DM, on spikes that deep and from the height he was dropped, I'd rule no damage.

Of course O'Chul did purposefully come into contact with the spikes to try to sever his bonds, so I might assign 1-2 damage (maybe 1d4 subdual) for accidentally nicking himself in the process since spikes aren't designed to cut through things. :smalltongue:

That being said, assuming that falling through water onto something is identical to falling through air would be the height of silliness. Anyone who's ever been in a swimming pool or a lake knows that.



As you play d&d, you realize that there aren't rules for a lot of things that come up.

For example, there's no rule concerning death by overeating after freeing starving slaves from the cruel clutches of <insert monster>. Yet, in reality, numerous people would die after being freed and gorging themselves.

You just have to improvise, and come up with something that makes sense. :P

[Estelindis]

Personally, I thought those spikes looked pretty painful, so I'd stick with the damage. :smallwink: But you're right, it does look like a DM call!

[Theodoriph]

As an aside, I don't really think they're spikes :P

Spikes are generally conical. O'Chul broke his bonds by rubbing them against the side of a "spike". For that to happen, there would have to be an edge. So it's more likely that those "spikes" are blade-like as opposed to traditional spikes.

[Yendor]

On the other hand, he does take falling damage from falling out of the tank.

Looks like he made a Tumble check, though, so it'd be non-lethal damage.

[Superglucose]

That's just silly. According to that set of rules, an unlucky level 1 wizard with constitution 10 could kick it just by standing around out of shade on a sunny day at summer for 1 hour and 10 minutes. :smallamused:

And don't even get me started about sauna... :smallsigh: (damn, we Finnish must've an uber CON to survive that repeatedly)

Holy crap... according to those rules I must have the CON of a god or some major bonuses to my fort save. Two-a-days, half in pads (afternoon) each something like 4 hours, wearing heavy clothing, AND strenuous activity. I didn't get heat stroke. Granted afterwards I was exhausted... but that was more a function of running into huge dudes for eight hours that day than anything the heat did. Someone needs to write new heat rules.

[carbonfury]

Is there any possibility O-chul has an interesting past and picked up Damage Reduction somehow?

like maybe O-chul was a barbarian up to 7th level giving him better average HP and DR 1/-

Just a thought...

[Skaven]

However his fortitude save was low enough to fail the save on a liches paralysing touch. DC16

Lets say he's a 10th level Paladin.

Thats a +7 to fort save right there alone.

Lets assue he number crunched max Con, 18. +2 from level up, thats a +5, he now has a +12 fort save. however lets assume he didnt min-max and took 16, he's still tough. 18 with his level ups. +4.. +11 fort save total.

lets say he has 14 Cha, he's a Leader in the Sapphire guard, he's got to have a strong personality. +2 to saves from that so..

+13 fort save. He must have rolled a 1 or 2 on his fort save on the paralysing touch. he must have a sizable con to have taken all that damage. I actually lean towards the 20, but 18 is also feasable. Must have taken the improved toughness feat too.

[Kurald Galain]

However his fortitude save was low enough to fail the save on a liches paralysing touch. DC16

That's not DC 16, that's DC 10 + half his HD + his charisma modifier. According to the geekery thread, that makes at least DC 29.

[Person_Man]

We should also consider that if O-Chul was part of an Epic level battle and survived, has been prisoner all this time, has had the chance for innumerable Skill encounters, has been put through numerous death traps, and has survived/beaten all of them (to be cruelly struck down by Xykon or some other minion). So he's most likely gained a ton of experience, perhaps more then any other OotS character. So he might have started around level 12ish, but he's obviously way past that now.

Also, where the heck is his Mount? Perhaps he took one of the Paladin variants, like charging smite or divine spirit?

[Porthos]

So he might have started around level 12ish, but he's obviously way past that now.

Yep. O-Chul's been riding an XP machine right now. I bet Xykon wishes that there was some way for him to get rid of that XP O-Chul's been earning.

If only there was a way. :smallamused:

[Person_Man]

We should also consider that if O-Chul was part of an Epic level battle and survived, has been prisoner all this time, has had the chance for innumerable Skill encounters, has been put through numerous death traps, and has survived/beaten all of them (to be cruelly struck down by Xykon or some other minion). So he's most likely gained a ton of experience, perhaps more then any other OotS character. So he might have started around level 12ish, but he's obviously way past that now.

Also, where the heck is his Mount? Perhaps he took one of the Paladin variants, like charging smite or divine spirit?

[Electric_Monkey]

I wonder if O-Chul might have levels in some kind of Prestige Class like Dashing swordsman that grants a circumstance bonus on escaping from contrived deathtraps - maybe Gritty Brawler? I wonder what that class would be like.

[Prowl]

I suspect that O'Chul has something special about him that makes him abnormally - perhaps supernaturally - tough. He takes the explosion of the Azure City gate - which tore an undamaged Miko right in half - point blank, then gets tossed by the force of the explosion what must be a clear half-mile to the tea party, then probably sustains a small amount of additional damage from Haley and Belkar's escape sequence.

I'm not enough of a rules nerd to have any good suggestions on this point, but this seems to be a case of something more than just a large number of HP.

Keep in mind that O'Chul - according to Roy's father - was not the highest level character involved in the battle, Roy was. If we figure Roy was about 16th level, O'Chul would be max 15th level, and even if we add a ton of constitution bonuses to him, he'd have to have consistently rolled very high on HP to get the kind of numbers needed to sustain the damage he's taken outright.

Perhaps there is some form of damage reduction involved here.

[Chronos]

I suspect that O'Chul has something special about him that makes him abnormally - perhaps supernaturally - tough.Of course he does, he's a paladin. They all get supernatural bonuses to their survivability.


I'm not enough of a rules nerd to have any good suggestions on this point, but this seems to be a case of something more than just a large number of HP.It seems to me to be exactly a case of a large number of HP. What about it seems otherwise?


Keep in mind that O'Chul - according to Roy's father - was not the highest level character involved in the battle, Roy was. If we figure Roy was about 16th level, O'Chul would be max 15th level, and even if we add a ton of constitution bonuses to him, he'd have to have consistently rolled very high on HP to get the kind of numbers needed to sustain the damage he's taken outright.Why do people keep bringing this up? Eugene was lying, just like he always does. The highest level good character on the battlefield was Soon Kim, and we don't really have any evidence on whether O-Chul was higher or lower than Roy. We know that he's lower than Hinjo, since Miko refers to Hinjo as the second-most-powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard, but we don't actually know what level Hinjo is, either. But even if O-Chul was lower level than Roy (who is known to have been 13th level then, not 16th), it's still quite plausible for a 10th or 11th level paladin with above-average HP to survive everything we've seen. Yeah, he had to have had lucky rolls on his Con and HP, but we already know that, because Hinjo says he's the toughest member of the Guard.

[Alfryd]

If only there was a way...
Umm... wights?

If O-Chul is 12th level (again, with 20 Con and Improved Toughness), he will have a minimum of 93 hp (10+11+72), an average of 142 hp, rounded down as always (10+60.5+72), and a maximum of 192 hp (10+110+72). This means that, if he was lucky with his hp rolls, he could conceivably have enough to take all the damage dished out in my rather generous estimate (generous from the point of view of rounds of full immersion, anyway).
Do bear in mind that the likelihood of getting maximum rolls on all HD after 12 levels is pretty well infinitesimal. 170 HP after 12 levels would require minimum average rolls of 7 or 8 out of 10. I'm not trained in statistics, but I did some brute-force number crunching on the simpler case of only 6 rolls, and got about a 5% chance of making the cut, which would get worse with extra dice. To give O-chul a 10% chance of having 170 HP, I'm guessing he'll need an effective con bonus per level of +8 or more.

That's not DC 16, that's DC 10 + half his HD + his charisma modifier. According to the geekery thread, that makes at least DC 29.
Oh, yeah... I missed that.

[Estelindis]

Do bear in mind that the likelihood of getting maximum rolls on all HD after 12 levels is pretty well infinitesimal. 170 HP after 12 levels would require minimum average rolls of 7 or 8 out of 10. I'm not trained in statistics, but I did some brute-force number crunching on the simpler case of only 6 rolls, and got about a 5% chance of making the cut, which would get worse with extra dice. To give O-chul a 10% chance of having 170 HP, I'm guessing he'll need an effective con bonus per level of +8 or more.
I do realise that. :smallsmile: I'm just saying that, if all other things are average, then O-Chul will need to have done better than average in order to survive, and that doing that much better is at least possible (albeit unlikely). If I'm wrong on the number of rounds of immersion - if he only took three rounds of 10d6 and one of, say, 1d6 for partial immersion (hey, I don't make the rules) - then that would make it 150 points of damage inflicted on him. That's not too far off an estimate of 142 HP on average at all. :smallwink:

[Theodoriph]

Umm... wights?

Do bear in mind that the likelihood of getting maximum rolls on all HD after 12 levels is pretty well infinitesimal. 170 HP after 12 levels would require minimum average rolls of 7 or 8 out of 10. I'm not trained in statistics, but I did some brute-force number crunching on the simpler case of only 6 rolls, and got about a 5% chance of making the cut, which would get worse with extra dice. To give O-chul a 10% chance of having 170 HP, I'm guessing he'll need an effective con bonus per level of +8 or more.

Oh, yeah... I missed that.


Actually, they're not infinitesimal. Since O'Chul is an NPC, the DM could have simply given him max for every roll. The joys of making NPCs tougher without actually increasing their given CR. Of course...it's horribly mean...but some people like being mean =).

5% is a bit high =D I mean his chances of getting 10 two times in a row without DM fiat are already 1%.

[Darkness_Elemen]

Do bear in mind that the likelihood of getting maximum rolls on all HD after 12 levels is pretty well infinitesimal. 170 HP after 12 levels would require minimum average rolls of 7 or 8 out of 10. I'm not trained in statistics, but I did some brute-force number crunching on the simpler case of only 6 rolls, and got about a 5% chance of making the cut, which would get worse with extra dice. To give O-chul a 10% chance of having 170 HP, I'm guessing he'll need an effective con bonus per level of +8 or more.

Statistically: odds of getting a 8, 9, or 10 on a d10: 3/10.
Odds of getting all 8, 9, or 10s on 2 d10 rolls: (3/10)^2=.09 or 9% *
Odds of getting all 8, 9, or 10s on 12 d10 rolls: (3/10)^12=.000 000 531)
Odds of NOT getting the above: .999 999 469 (the complement, it's important)
Selection bias: Odds of 100 paladins ALL NOT getting all 8, 9, or 10s on 12d d10 rolls: (.999999469)^100 = .999 947 or 99.9947%
Translation: It is staggeringly unlikely that O-Chul could get all 8s, 9s, or 10s for his HP rolls. Hinjo specifying that he was the toughest Paladin in the Saphire Guard doesn't help much.

What would it take to make it work?
How about for 7, 8, 9, or 10? 99.83% chance of it not happening.
6 or greater (average 8)? 97.58% chance of it not happening, or a 2.41% chance it does. Still too low.
5 or greater (average 7.5)? 19.5% chance of it happening.
4 or greater (average 7)? 75.2% chance of it happening.
If we assume the Saphire Guard actually had 200 Paladins we get a 35% chance of at least one Paladin rolling an average of 7.5 HP for 12 levels, or a 93.8% chance of at least one Paladin rolling an average of 7HP per level for 12 levels.
Translation: Given that O-Chul was identified as the toughest Paladin in the Guard, it is not that hard to believe that he rolled an average of 7-7.5HP/level.

(The final formula, by the by, is: Odds of AT LEAST ONE Paladin out of 100 getting rolls of x or greater on a d10 for y levels is = 1 - (1-(p)^y)^100, where p = (10-(x+1)) /10.
__________________________________________________ _______

Unrelated note: If he ever ran across a Manual of Bodily Health, O-Chul could have more than a +5 bonus from Con. Also, when the castle blew he may have had an item equipped that gave a bonus to Con.

*number of different cases on a roll of 2d10: 100
cases where only 8, 9, or 10 was rolled
8 8
8 9
8 10
9 8
9 9
9 10
10 8
10 9
10 10
nine cases out of 100 total = .09 or 9%, so my math checks out.

[Estelindis]

Wow! That was rather impressive. :smalleek: :smallsmile:

Okay, everyone: the real number-cruncher has just arrived in the thread! :smallbiggrin:

[Alfryd]

Statistically: odds of getting a 8, 9, or 10 on a d10: 3/10.
You are correct. Mea culpa.

Odds of getting all 8, 9, or 10s on 2 d10 rolls: (3/10)^2=.09 or 9% *
Yes, but O-chul doesn't need to get ALL 8s/9s/10s, since a low roll here and there can be made up for by high roll elsewhere. (This is why getting average HP remains a 50% chance regardless of how many dice are rolled, even though average results or better on any single die are only 50% thesemlves.) It's just that the more dice you roll, the tighter the probability distribution becomes, so that anything much outside of average HP becomes very, very unlikely once many dice are being rolled.

So there's a flaw with your analysis here. I wrote a little java program that systematically goes through every possible permutation of dice results and returns the probability distribution across all totals, but with 12 10-sided dice there are 1 trillion permutations, so it would take about 2 days to run. I'm sure there's some statistical theorem which would give the result in a snap.

Actually, hang on:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/torben_rpg_dice.html

Well, the average of a d10 is 5.5, and the variance is (1 + 4 + 9 + 16... + 100 = 385) / 10 - 30.25 = 8.25. So the variance of 12d10 is 99, and the spread/standard deviation is 9.95, approximately. Which... tells me nothing, since I don't know how to relate standard deviation to the proportion of a normal distribution above a certain threshold. Oh well. Can't say I don't try.

[Nerdanel]

But most of the paladins in the Sapphire Guard are low level and died quickly. The only known paladins of at least 10th level were Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul, and POSSIBLY Lien.

So O-Chul only really has to beat Miko and Hinjo and at most a handful of other paladins in hitpoints to be designated the "toughest". Miko (the most powerful paladin) had levels in monk which has lower hitdie than paladin. Hinjo in all likelihood was only few levels higher than O-Chul. O-Chul being the toughest doesn't require any unlikely feats of rolling. A really good constitution score is the most likely explanation, possibly reinforced with feats like Improved Toughness.

[Eric]

Well, the average of a d10 is 5.5, and the variance is (1 + 4 + 9 + 16... + 100 = 385) / 10 - 30.25 = 8.25. So the variance of 12d10 is 99, and the spread/standard deviation is 9.95, approximately. Which... tells me nothing, since I don't know how to relate standard deviation to the proportion of a normal distribution above a certain threshold. Oh well. Can't say I don't try.

You'd assume that it is a normal distribution.

IIRC, three SD's away is near 1%. Four is near .1%. If there are 10,000 paladins, you may see one get something like 45HP more than average. Add to 99 and you get 144HP. Add 60HP from 12xCON bonus (5) makes it 204HP.

Of course, most of those paladins don't get to roll that many d10's, so you're looking at maybe 3SD's away for O'Chul, giving you 99+30+60=189HP. You could convolve with the "normal" distribution based on the damage potential of three rounds in acid and so on (BTW I'd rule that the falling damage is negated by counting the falling on the spikes as normal, swings and roundabouts) to get the probability of *just* surviving and then take the expected value of that.

[Alfryd]

You'd assume that it is a normal distribution.
Well, n dice do approximate progressively narrower bell curves, so, yes.

If there are 10,000 paladins...
It's implied that most of the sapphire guard's members died during the battle of azure city, so I would be shocked if there were much more than, say, 500 members.

[Eric]

Well, n dice do approximate progressively narrower bell curves, so, yes.

It's implied that most of the sapphire guard's members died during the battle of azure city, so I would be shocked if there were much more than, say, 500 members.

Well about 1-in-500 chance would be 3SD's away, confidence limit of 0.997300203937, so that's 1-in-370 chance. If we reduce it by 1SD because there are more low level paladins than high level ones, that would take it down to a little under 180HP (edit: 2SD's is a little worse than a 1-in-20 chance, if the levels go up at a power law then that would tell you how many d10's you'd have to roll for the sapphire guard and would dell you whether O'Chul was a small enough sample of them for a 1/20th chance to happen with a reasonable probability).

[Chronos]

...and the variance is (1 + 4 + 9 + 16... + 100 = 385) / 10 - 30.25 = 8.25.Useful shortcut: The variance of a single n-sided die is (n2 - 1)/12. So the variance of 1d10 is (102 - 1)/12 = 33/4 = 8.25, just as you said.

[Sc00by]

If O-Chul was a fighter for 12 years, does that make any difference? I'm guessing that he culd have many more toughness feats at the very least? Though I suppose that as the HD is the same (d10) it's not going to make too much difference.

Shame he wasn't a barbarian for 12 years isn't it? That would've made somewhat of a difference...

[Chronos]

Him being multiclassed does at least mean that his Fortitude save is going to be a bit higher than it would be otherwise. But that wouldn't have made a difference in the shark tank (aside from possibly a save vs. massive damage, but that's unlikely in the first place, and an easy save for him in the second place).

[Greg]

He could have taken the improved toughness feat from Complete Warrior/MM3. +1HP/level is still useful.

[squid96]

I'm not going to bother doing the math but all I know is that he has a lot of hp! I have a lv 7 paladin with like 60 hp and he would die in like, one round.

[curtis]

BTW, using Estelindis's numbers, I make it anything from 58-314 hp.

Also I bring you a definitive answer.





























O-Chul has a lot of hit points.

[Khanderas]

O-Chul has a lot of hit points.
(brings out a pen and paper and writes it down..)
a... lot... of... hitpoints.
(puts paper in his filecabinet)

[hamishspence]

thing is, the combination of falling + liquid + spikes is not listed in DMG. Closest approximation I can find is Dragon Magazine 295 (3rd ed) which has rules for moats with spikes in, modifying effective distance fallen by depth of water. But then, it also said spikes deeper than 10ft below surface do not endanger falling creatures.

with rounding, it could be a 20 ft fall, with 10ft (actually slightly more) of acid, with spikes ending 10 ft below him, so first 20ft of fall does not do falling damage, and only d4 damage per spike, d4 spikes. And he takes 20ft of falling damage when he climbs out of the tank.

so its spike damage only, acid damage, shark bites, 20 ft fall from tank (looks rather less than 30 ft) and d3 ray of frost damage.