O-Chul...afraid?? (Spoilers)

[Resist77]

Right before the shark attacks O-Chul in #542, he closes his eyes and "gulps", apparently bracing himself for the shark's strike, a reasonable action, except for one minor detal....isn't O-chul a paladin and therefore immune to fear?

[Resist77]

In comic 542, immediately after O-Chul gets the acid-shark's attention, we see him bracing himself with his eyes closed, uttering an audible "gulp". This would be perfectly acceptable excluding one minor detail....

isn't O-Chul a Paladin, and as such immune to fear, natural or otherwise?

[Paragon Badger]

Concern, then? :smalltongue:

[Alex Knight]

well, two things.

a.) I've always felt that a Paladin's immunity to fear just means you can't FORCE him to cower in terror or run away. He can still feel fear, it just never takes hold of him.

b.) You don't have to be afraid of being bitten to know that the bite is gonna *hurt*, and nothing about being a Paladin says you have to look forward to getting hurt.

[FujinAkari]

a.) I've always felt that a Paladin's immunity to fear just means you can't FORCE him to cower in terror or run away. He can still feel fear, it just never takes hold of him.

Incorrect as per Miko, see her discussion with Redcloak at the Watchtower


b.) You don't have to be afraid of being bitten to know that the bite is gonna *hurt*, and nothing about being a Paladin says you have to look forward to getting hurt.

Bingo!

[Theodoriph]

You double posted.


The answer is no. Paladins can feel fear. The immunity to fear ability is there to ensure that fear does not have any effect on them. (except in horror campaigns, where there are a couple of ways to circumvent it).

That being said, a paladin for instance can still fear the repercussions of angering his/her deity or he/she can still feel concern for his/her teammates (re: fearing for their safety). He/she can even be nervous (another form of fear) when asking for a date, making a speech, ordering a meal etc.

In short, the Paladin's ability is more of an immunity to any kind of fear that has any "real" consequence (and not just a roleplaying one). :smalltongue:


Having said that...he isn't necessarily gulping because he is afraid. It could just be a gulp of resignation or of preparing to do something unpleasant.

[Alex Knight]

Incorrect as per Miko, see her discussion with Redcloak at the Watchtower


I would counter that Miko, with her typical attitude towards everything, decided that she *couldn't* feel fear, because if she *did*, that would mean she might be wrong, and she's *never* wrong.

And being Miko, she would naturally extend her own feelings to paladins in general, since she was a shining example of paladin-hood (in her own mind).

[Resist77]

ah, I apologize for the double post, I lost my connection right as I hit submit and figured it didn't register

also, good point

[Kekken]

If paladins felt no fear, than thier courage would mean nothing, and they would be emotionless killbots...

[Querzis]

If paladins felt no fear, than thier courage would mean nothing, and they would be emotionless killbots...

...Emontionless just because they cant feel fear???? That doesnt keep them from felling compassion, love, anger or anything else. But yeah their courage means nothing, thats kinda the point.

Seriously, Miko wasnt especially smart but if she says paladins are immune to ALL kind of fear we kinda have to trust her because she should know it a lot better then us. Dont act like its the first time Rich use different rules anyway, Roy isnt even supposed to still have his fighter levels but since he killed in one round an evil adventurer, its obvious he actually does.

Paladins arent supposed to be able to slaughter goblin childrens either. The fact that they did without falling kinda prove Rich use different rules with his paladins.

Just show me a single paladin who seem to fear something in the comic or the books. The only one who ran from a fight was Miko AFTER she lost her power.

[NikkTheTrick]

...Emontionless just because they cant feel fear???? That doesnt keep them from felling compassion, love, anger or anything else. But yeah their courage means nothing, thats kinda the point.

Seriously, Miko wasnt especially smart but if she says paladins are immune to ALL kind of fear we kinda have to trust her because she should know it a lot better then us. Dont act like its the first time Rich use different rules anyway, Roy isnt even supposed to still have his fighter levels but since he killed in one round an evil adventurer, its obvious he actually does.

Paladins arent supposed to be able to slaughter goblin childrens either. The fact that they did without falling kinda prove Rich use different rules with his paladins.

Just show me a single paladin who seem to fear something in the comic or the books. The only one who ran from a fight was Miko AFTER she lost her power.
Feeling fear and having one's actions dictated by fear are totally different things. A soldier WILL be afraid before and during the charge, but he still charges. He was not overwhelmed by fear, but he did experience it.

Same with Paladins. Either due to their training or grace of their gods, they can overcome any fear they face. But the fear is still there. And, as far as it influences nothing (like O'Chul's "gulp"), there is nothing saying that fear cannot be visible.

[Querzis]

Feeling fear and having one's actions dictated by fear are totally different things. A soldier WILL be afraid before and during the charge, but he still charges. He was not overwhelmed by fear, but he did experience it.

Same with Paladins. Either due to their training or grace of their gods, they can overcome any fear they face. But the fear is still there. And, as far as it influences nothing (like O'Chul's "gulp"), there is nothing saying that fear cannot be visible.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html

Yeah so once again I'll just believe Miko on that. Its not because its in the rulebooks that its true in OOTS. As a matter of fact, it rarely is. O-chul reaction just seems a proof of this, he didnt hesitate and just gulped when he was about to be bitten by a shark. I dont think anyone who can fear something would act like that.

[MeklorIlavator]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html

Yeah so once again I'll just believe Miko on that. Its not because its in the rulebooks that its true in OOTS. As a matter of fact, it rarely is. O-chul reaction just seems a proof of this, he didnt hesitate and just gulped when he was about to be bitten by a shark. I dont think anyone who can fear something would act like that.
Actually, I think that thats exactly how a character who can feel fear but doesn't let it overcome them would react. If you don't think that, please, give an example of how you think they would react.

[Querzis]

Actually, I think that thats exactly how a character who can feel fear but doesn't let it overcome them would react. If you don't think that, please, give an example of how you think they would react.

Pretty much what Alex Knight said. Its not because you dont fear the bite, or pain in general or your death that you have to look forward to it. Fear is distressing emotion, O-chul didnt hesitate one second when he realized he coudnt get past the tank and is basically very calm and serene in the entire strip despite the pain and his likely death. How the hell is that supposed to be distressed?

Fear isnt simply hating pain but being scared and distressed. O-chul seems in pain and he hate it, he dont like whats happening at all but I really dont see how hes supposed to seems distressed or scared at all.

Though I gotta agree that we see way too much fearless characters in fantasy or movies even if its not supposed to be possible without magic...though I seems to remember there is supposed to be some people who cant feel fear for some reasons. I'm not sure. Anyway, go watch a good war movies, the soldier are trembling, sweating, they got bloody eyes and seems ready to snap at any moment. You can see how much they are scared and panicked on their face but they are still not running away, thats someone who overcome fear. Its not someone who just look slighty annoyed and even bored in panel six when you are in a lethal situation that will likely lead to your death.

The shark also look annoyed and startled when O-chul punch him, but a shark still doesnt fear anything.

[The Wanderer]

Actually, I think that thats exactly how a character who can feel fear but doesn't let it overcome them would react. If you don't think that, please, give an example of how you think they would react.

Swum away from the shark? Kicked it in the nose to try discouraging it?

Staying there when you're already seriously wounded and probably near death and letting a big shark bit and nearly swallow you, banking on the idea that the shark's momentum would carry it to the side of it cage and the impact would force it to let go of you is a whole other sort of reaction.

[NikkTheTrick]

Yeah so once again I'll just believe Miko on that. Its not because its in the rulebooks that its true in OOTS. As a matter of fact, it rarely is. O-chul reaction just seems a proof of this, he didnt hesitate and just gulped when he was about to be bitten by a shark. I dont think anyone who can fear something would act like that.
Fear does not make one hesitate. Being overcome with fear does. There is a huge difference between the two.

Miko was wrong. She made a mistake and that mistake had pretty bad consequences. She believed herself to be the only source of truth (to the point of interpreting gods' will). She would not admit to being wrong. She would not admit to being afraid.

Also, we do have evidence of other paladins expressing quite a bit of fear when running away:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

[The Wanderer]

Also, we do have evidence of other paladins expressing quite a bit of fear when running away:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

Even if the dwarf is a paladin, (which he may be, or it may be Teevo branching out on what to record), he's not an Azurite, or of the Sapphire Guild, thus there's no reason that the 12 Gods would remove his fear as Miko claimed they did with her.

And since I just did a long debate on this recently, I recall lots of evidence for the Sapphire Guild lacking fear, including: a bunch of low level paladins facing an epic or near epic lich/sorcerer and not a single one hesitating or running, (or even trying a tactical retreat to regroup) even after the bouncing ball of insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Hinjo's complete lack of fear while facing an undead spellcaster and multiple ninja at once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), Lien's lack of fear at fighting overwhelming hobs alone with no one backing her up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Hinjo leaping into the middle of hundreds of foes in an attempt to attack a spellcaster of a much higher level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html), Thanh fighting alone against dangerous undead after the order to retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html), and O-Chul's actions in the most recent comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html). (And there's some other small stuff I could cite with Hinjo, Thanh and company, but I think that's enough).

Also, for all that people are making of the gulp before the shark attacked him, they seem to be missing the fact that two panels before that, after having made his way to the surface, he deliberately dived back into the acid and deliberately attracted the attention of the shark so it would attack him. You can argue all you want about keeping a cool head under pressure, but it takes more than a cool head to take a gamble like that in the hopes that it will lead to you getting out of the tank.

So yeah. Azure paladins are either the hardest bastards in the conceivable universe, (each and every single one of them) or there's something else going on. I lean in the direction that they really have had fear stripped away.

[Kurald Galain]

Also, we do have evidence of other paladins expressing quite a bit of fear when running away:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html

That's not fear - that's proper munchkinny concern for one's magical equipment.
:smallwink:

[Estelindis]

I would like to make a brief comment here, as I think the Aristotelian model of virtue is quite helpful when it comes to fear.

In brief: a virtue is a moderate balance between two extreme vices that are the opposites of each other. So courage is a virtue, balanced between the opposite vices of cowardice and foolhardiness. Cowardice is not having backbone - allowing fear to overcome oneself to the point of losing all resolve. Foolhardiness is refusing to consider the realities that inspire the feeling of fear as having any bearing on oneself, and recklessly throwing oneself into danger irrespective of the consequences for oneself or anyone else. Courage is feeling fear but not allowing oneself to lose heart, looking at the dangers and making a realistic assessment of one's abilities, putting oneself on the line in spite of the expectation of suffering - and I think that's what O-Chul is doing. I have always preferred to think of a paladin's abilities in this respect as divinely-inspired *courage* - not an inability to feel fear, which would really make courage unnecessary.

As for what Miko said on the subject, I loved her as a character but I would not regard her assessment of paladinhood as realistic (considering that she fell and seemed not to understand what she had done wrong). O-Chul, Hinjo, Lien, and Thanh all seem to be more sensible in this regard.

[NikkTheTrick]

And since I just did a long debate on this recently, I recall lots of evidence for the Sapphire Guild lacking fear, including: a bunch of low level paladins facing an epic or near epic lich/sorcerer and not a single one hesitating or running, (or even trying a tactical retreat to regroup) even after the bouncing ball of insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Hinjo's complete lack of fear while facing an undead spellcaster and multiple ninja at once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), Lien's lack of fear at fighting overwhelming hobs alone with no one backing her up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Hinjo leaping into the middle of hundreds of foes in an attempt to attack a spellcaster of a much higher level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html), Thanh fighting alone against dangerous undead after the order to retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html), and O-Chul's actions in the most recent comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html). (And there's some other small stuff I could cite with Hinjo, Thanh and company, but I think that's enough).

Once again, all those are examples of SG Paladns not allowing fear to overwhelm them, not that they did not feel fear at all. Just like a soldier who charges into hopeless battle, Paladins in the throne room fought to the last (which was not the way they expected since they ended up slaughtering each other, but this is not their fault). That does not mean they did not feel fear. That means they did not let fear overwhelm them.

[The Wanderer]

Nikk, if it was one or two cases I would agree with you. But with all those and more, especially the incredibly rash and foolhardy nature of some of these acts, as much as I hate to give Miko credit for anything, I think she might actually have been right here. (Like the old saying about how even a stopped clock is right twice a day :smallwink:).

[NikkTheTrick]

Nikk, if it was one or two cases I would agree with you. But with all those and more, especially the incredibly rash and foolhardy nature of some of these acts, as much as I hate to give Miko credit for anything, I think she might actually have been right here. (Like the old saying about how even a stopped clock is right twice a day :smallwink:).
Or, it might have been so that gods protect SG paladins from effects of fear.

Feeling no fear at all does not sound paladiny to me. How can one protect weak if he cannot feel fear himself?

Magical protection against effects of fear seems a lot more reasonable explanation than outright inability to it.

[Callista]

I would like to make a brief comment here, as I think the Aristotelian model of virtue is quite helpful when it comes to fear.

In brief: a virtue is a moderate balance between two extreme vices that are the opposites of each other. So courage is a virtue, balanced between the opposite vices of cowardice and foolhardiness. Cowardice is not having backbone - allowing fear to overcome oneself to the point of losing all resolve. Foolhardiness is refusing to consider the realities that inspire the feeling of fear as having any bearing on oneself, and recklessly throwing oneself into danger irrespective of the consequences for oneself or anyone else. Courage is feeling fear but not allowing oneself to lose heart, looking at the dangers and making a realistic assessment of one's abilities, putting oneself on the line in spite of the expectation of suffering - and I think that's what O-Chul is doing. I have always preferred to think of a paladin's abilities in this respect as divinely-inspired *courage* - not an inability to feel fear, which would really make courage unnecessary.

As for what Miko said on the subject, I loved her as a character but I would not regard her assessment of paladinhood as realistic (considering that she fell and seemed not to understand what she had done wrong). O-Chul, Hinjo, Lien, and Thanh all seem to be more sensible in this regard.QFT.

Miko was totally adamant that she was perfect; not admitting she feels fear would be right in line with that. She had probably convinced herself, by that point, that she really didn't feel afraid. Miko is a better personification of extreme Law than she ever was of a Paladin--remember what kind of creatures are "always lawful"? Inevitables. Creatures without emotion of any kind... basically intelligent constructs, following a command tirelessly. You need emotion to understand and empathize with your fellow creatures; and that means that emotions are a part of having a Good alignment. (They're part of Evil, too, depending on how they're used.) In extreme Chaotics, the emotions take over, and the person is driven by them. If you want to be Lawful *and* Good, you have to keep your emotions in balance--control them, use them for your purposes.

Take fear from a Paladin completely, and you end up with somebody who begins to be less and less capable of empathizing with people who do feel fear. That's dangerous. Even if you keep everything else, fear is probably the most powerful negative emotion possible, and if you don't feel it, you become detached from the people you're trying to help.

The infliction of fear is at the heart of evil. It would greatly hamper a paladin if he could not be reminded of what he's fighting. Many more paladins would follow Miko's path if they couldn't feel fear.

[Cestrian]

The thing is we've had nobody within the comic say anything contrary to Miko's statement. On panel we've only had two characters discuss the fact that Paladins don't feel fear as if it was gospel and no other characters comment on it. So I see no reason to assume they were wrong or even that there's any ambiguity. There's no narrative point in having a character give exposition that isn't true and then have no-one call them on it. You might as well not believe every bit of exposition in the strip like why Sabine hooked up with Nale for instance.

[Callista]

We wouldn't be questioning it if those minor signs of fear weren't showing up in various paladins. There's Miko's "no fear" exposition on one side, and ambiguous evidence that could point to just "no fear effects" on the other. D&D rules don't give us any real answer, because fear without fear effects is pure RP and thus up to the DM and players. So I'm picking the choice that seems most realistic: Keep the paladins aware of their mortality; give them fear, but give them the ability to ignore it if necessary. It's the best way to handle the problem of fear, if you want to create a holy warrior who's at the same time compassionate and courageous.

[Estelindis]

QFT.

Why, thank you. :smallsmile:


There's no narrative point in having a character give exposition that isn't true and then have no-one call them on it. You might as well not believe every bit of exposition in the strip like why Sabine hooked up with Nale for instance.

I would disagree in calling Miko's declaration that the Twelve Gods have caused her not to feel fear "exposition." I more see it as her way of justifying her recklessness as part of their holy mandate - something she very much needed to do, as I think that her brashness was an effort to hide her inner insecurity from the world and from herself.

Think about it. Redcloak says (in #372) that Miko is "immune to the fear that [she] might be wrong." Now, Redcloak is hardly an impartial narrator. But doesn't his criticism agree with what Soon says (in #464)? "True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. You have done none of this." So, in effect, we have Soon agreeing with Redcloak's criticism of Miko's comment about her fearlessness. Ultimately, I think the claim she was making tells us more about her personality than about the workings of the OotS world (and thus isn't exposition as such - more like flavour text).

[T.Titan]

Nikk, if it was one or two cases I would agree with you. But with all those and more, especially the incredibly rash and foolhardy nature of some of these acts,


Oh, so not being afraid makes one a certified idiot?! No being afraid to die shouldn't make one suicidal IMO.

[Emanick]

Why, thank you. :smallsmile:



I would disagree in calling Miko's declaration that the Twelve Gods have caused her not to feel fear "exposition." I more see it as her way of justifying her recklessness as part of their holy mandate - something she very much needed to do, as I think that her brashness was an effort to hide her inner insecurity from the world and from herself.

Think about it. Redcloak says (in #372) that Miko is "immune to the fear that [she] might be wrong." Now, Redcloak is hardly an impartial narrator. But doesn't his criticism agree with what Soon says (in #464)? "True redemption demands that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. You have done none of this." So, in effect, we have Soon agreeing with Redcloak's criticism of Miko's comment about her fearlessness. Ultimately, I think the claim she was making tells us more about her personality than about the workings of the OotS world (and thus isn't exposition as such - more like flavour text).

I agree. If every paladin had that problem, then redemption would be impossible and thus a nonentity, assuming Soon, probably The Authority on paladins, considering that he's both epic-level and, judging from his lack of anger at Miko considering her HUGE blunder, a particularly 'stable' paladin, knew what he was talking about.
Miko, on the other hand, DID show fear. Remember? "By the gods! I must hurry back to save Windstriker!" In #379 or so, I believe. Just look at her expression and tell me that actually isn't fear. "Concern" is a stretch there. :smallsigh:
Remember that Windstriker is the sole character Miko has never been shown to have any friction with, unless you consider her telling him that he might want to cut back on Holy Oats friction. Her mount is considered, by Wikipedia at least, to be her only shown friend.

[Cestrian]

Well redemption is for ex-Paladins who presumably have their fear returned to them when they fall.

Plus the idea that the removal of fear extends to emotional matters and so leads too massive over confidence is a completely unsubstantiated guess by Redcloak. Who both hates paladins and by his own admission hadn't heard about the fear rule until Miko mentioned it. Honestly if I'm going to doubt one thing from that strip it wouldn't be what Miko says.

[Estelindis]

Well redemption is for ex-Paladins who presumably have their fear returned to them when they fall.
But that's not what Soon is saying at all. If you see the parallels between Redcloak and Soon's comments, you will realise that Soon is effectively saying that Miko still doesn't experience any fear or doubt that she could have been wrong - but, if she did, she could be redeemed. As it is, she can't be redeemed because of her inflexibility.


Plus the idea that the removal of fear extends to emotional matters and so leads too massive over confidence is a completely unsubstantiated guess by Redcloak. Who both hates paladins and by his own admission hadn't heard about the fear rule until Miko mentioned it.
Firstly, I have already said that Redcloak is not a reliable narrator. However, the fact that Soon pretty much agrees with him shows that it he doesn't seem to be making a blind strike in the dark here.

Secondly, I have felt for a long time - way before this comment from Redcloak - that most of Miko's problems were rooted in the way she experienced and dealt with emotion. This is something that can be observed just from her conduct. One doesn't have to be an evil cleric of the Dark One to believe it...


Honestly if I'm going to doubt one thing from that strip it wouldn't be what Miko says.
Eh? Bit of a straw-man argument there. No one says you only have to doubt one thing from that strip.

[Cestrian]

But that's not what Soon is saying at all. If you see the parallels between Redcloak and Soon's comments, you will realise that Soon is effectively saying that Miko still doesn't experience any fear or doubt that she could have been wrong - but, if she did, she could be redeemed. As it is, she can't be redeemed because of her inflexibility.

I agree with that completely. I just don't think it's relevant as a) Soon is talking specifically about Ex-Paladins not current paladins and b) I personally think you can be fearless and still admit that you're wrong. I don't think they're mutually exclusive options.


Firstly, I have already said that Redcloak is not a reliable narrator. However, the fact that Soon pretty much agrees with him shows that it he doesn't seem to be making a blind strike in the dark here.

Secondly, I have felt for a long time - way before this comment from Redcloak - that most of Miko's problems were rooted in the way she experienced and dealt with emotion. This is something that can be observed just from her conduct. One doesn't have to be an evil cleric of the Dark One to believe it...

Again I agree with you. But Redcloak specifically links this emotional inflexibility to the lack of fear and Soon doesn't. It's that link I disagree with not the inflexibility itself. Soon is specifically talking about Miko's weaknesses while Redcloak is generalising those weaknesses to include all Paladins and so blaming the Paladin model for them. I don't think you have to reject Miko's 'fearless' claim to reject Redcloak's argument. You obviously do, which is fair enough.


Eh? Bit of a straw-man argument there. No one says you only have to doubt one thing from that strip.

I know. I was just commenting that you seemed to agree with Redcloak's theory (assuming the information he was working with was correct) and so disagree with Miko's information. I ,on the other hand, agree with Miko's information and disagree with Redcloak's reasoning i.e that lack of fear automatically leads to inflexibility and over confidence. So we're both doubting one thing but they're different things.

[Estelindis]

Well, in that case, Cestrian, I think we can pretty much agree to, erm, agree. :smallbiggrin:

It did bother me at the time that Redcloak was pretty much applying his argument to all paladins, wholesale, and I would not agree with that line of reasoning at all. I only thought it was an astute observation with regard to Miko. :smallsmile:

[Theodoriph]

Miko demonstrated fear. She was concerned about her horse after being hit out of the tower. Concern is simply one form of fear. She feared for its safety. She was also a god-fearing individual.


There's a reason it's called Aura of Courage and not Aura of Amygdala Suppression or somesuch.

[Theodoriph]

If I may be glib:

Perhaps Miko herself had a brain lesion that prevented her from feeling fear.

That would slot in well with what we know of her:


She wouldn't have feared being alone, so she wouldn't have worked to ensure a steady supply of treasure type-O. Check.

She wouldn't have feared losing control, so she wouldn't take the necessary steps to prevent that and would thus be more likely to snap. Check.

She wouldn't have feared failure, so she wouldn't have taken as much time to plan and consider all options and as a result, make a giant mess of things. Check.

She wouldn't have had a fear of dependence, so she may have relied on others to help define her life, and guide her and her actions. Check.


Hey...what do you know. Maybe Miko couldn't really feel fear :smallwink:

But I'm sure the Paladins not suffering from mental illness can :smallsmile:

[Corsair]

The concept of a character class being totally uncapable of feeling fear, in any setting, is a horrifyingly bad idea. Everything that is done has somewhere in that enormous stack of bricks, fear. Fear of death. Fear of failure. Fear of pain. Fear of fear. Fear of Spiders. Just because we have one example, doesn't prove jack squat. Remember, Rich made Miko as an example of every way NOT to play a Paladin. She's hardly an example to look up to. Now, we've never had sequences where a Paladin has actually said "I'm scared" but we have had...

The previously linked to encounter between Lien and the horde of Hobgoblins. Why did she attempt an intimidate check? Logically, because she was afraid of engaging that whole group. Furthermore, immediately after losing her spear, she takes a step back with a rather...panicked expression on her face. And Panic is simply another arm of that many-tentacled beast, Fear.

[Jayabalard]

Paladins are by definition Courageous.
A man who is fearless cannot be courageous.
If Paladins were fearless, then they couldn't be corageous, so Paladins are not fearless.
Since Paladins aren't fearless, they can feel fear.


Paladins are immune to the effects of fear, even though they feel fear.
Paladins face their fear; they permit it to pass over them and through them; And when it has gone past they turn the inner eye to see its path; Where the fear has gone there is nothing; Only they remain.

[Corsair]

Furthermore, it has been more or less explicitly shown in the strip that everyone is capable of Fourth-Wall Breaking, Referencing the comic or the rules, and, most importantly, munchkinnery. As the rules themselves are not clear, it could be interepreted as the Paladins literally having no fear. Thus, Miko has no fear because she THINKS she has no fear.

[bibliophile]

The definition of courage is not,not being afraid but being afraid and acting anyway. The paladins do feel fear, they just have divine help in managing it. Miko's "exposition" of her fearlessness can't be taken at face value. Miko is not the wisest or most stable paladin. Remember, she thought the gods had a plan for her, even after she fell. She is not the most reliable source.

[Roc Ness]

This forum reminds me of when I found the way to a supervillain guy.

My friend said "I found a really complex stratagic plan."

Other friend said "wouldn't it be easier to keep restarting till we beat him?"

I said "but we'll never beat him cos if we don't have a proper plan we fail"

Friend 1 "yeah, we have a plan, which is to make him think that were not scared enough to think that we need a plan so we ruin his plan that would ruin the plan he expected us to make"

Other friend "but wasn't charging at him with a horde of nondescript bounty hunters our original plan to corrupt his plan"

Friend 1 "Yeah and he'll expect that and he knows we will expect him to know that so he will expect us to make a plan to counter his plan, which he would expect"

Confusing, isn't it :smallamused:

In the end me and friend 1 visited evil guy and played dumb till he let slip a weakness which we did our best to exploit.

Maybe this forum thread could stop running around in circles found find a way to a definite answer

(i didn't make friends up. this annoying argument was real)

[MR.PIXIE]

Incorrect as per Miko, see her discussion with Redcloak at the Watchtower


Well... she wasnt mutch of a paladen anyway.

[hamishspence]

"and they shall know no fear" Space Marines.

There are ways of punching through a paladins immunity to magical fear. the dread witch prestige class in Heroes of Horror can generate fear spells at high level that can even affect paladins.

The words "I fear" and "i'm afraid", can be used in metaphorical ways, or when one is concerned for the lives of others rather than oneself. Hinjo appeared alarmed at the sound of the exploding Azure City gate, because he knew it signified a major problem. "I fear something terrible has happened" would be an appropiate phrase.

Paladins can run away without having actual fear per se. (Origin of PC's, elan and his employer fleeing the dire wolves)

"the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

i consider the immunity to fear to be more a matter of the paladin not being afraid for his own skin. He can still be worried about the consequence of an event, even driven by that worry. If he discovers due to his actions a monster was unleashed, he will be worried that people will be in danger, and feel the need to solve the problem.

Then of course there is awareness of imminent pain, which I think applies to O-Chul's situation. Its not "erk, scary monster" its "this is going to hurt" and bracing himself for pain.

[Qov]

O-Chul wasn't afraid at all. He was just pausing to gulp down some of that acidic green Mountain Dew, hoping the caffeine hit would help him through those last few inches to smite Xykon.