Is that even possible?

[paladinofshojo]

Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.

[NoDot]

Sigh.

D&D is a "simulation" (I use that term loosely.) of Heroic Fantasy. Levels allow you to play games ranging through many levels of power.

Think of the characters from a moderate-power (One Guy vs mook army head on, One Guy wins) Heroic Fantasy story. That is the sort of character to which O-Chul should be compared.

[Mewtarthio]

Bear in mind, OotS plays with the hp system quite openly. Rather than interpreting high hit points as being able to turn a lethal blow into a grazing one, it interprets it as being able to survive a lethal blow. Note, for instance, Roy's duel with Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html), in which he impales Miko and only manages to shock her. In the next strip, Miko runs Hinjo through with her katana, causing him to wince.

In short, OotS characters are a lot more resilient than real people.

[NikkTheTrick]

Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.
First of all, read the O'Chul's hitpoints discussion - the OotS world is using D&D rules, not laws of physics.

Killing the jailer was no biggie: he just made him fall and then shark+acid did their job. Also, that did not cost him any HP at all.

Brutally injure shark? He did knock a couple of teeth out, but I would not call that a brutal injury. After alll, the shark did not lose its will to attack him.

Getting close to Xykon... I doubt Xykon was too much afraid of that. In fact, he finds false hope amusing. Especially given that in case of O'Chul he already did that in the throne room. Giving and crushing false hope of the very same person over and over and over again is something Xykon really enjoys. And I really, really doubt that a punch would have any chance of knocking Xykon out. The lich survived Soon himself beating the *censored* out of him for quite a while. A single unarmed strike by a non-epic Paladin would only amuse Xykon.

[Querzis]

People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.

[Chronos]

In fact, by the numbers, the surprising thing isn't that he survived, but that it hurt him so much that a single Ray of Frost (an absolutely pathetic spell, the weakest thing we've seen anyone in the comic cast) was able to take him down.

[Glome]

People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.

You know, that's the one thing that I would have to change. If I were DMing and someone got thrown in Lava, especially if they didn't have any fire resistance, it would be instantly fatal, regardless of how heroic your character may be. There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.

Everything else in comparison is at least plausible giving a finely-tuned killing machine that adventurers are suppose to represent and possible interpretations of hit points. Read some of the stories of medal of honor recipients for example of the type of punishment some people really can achieve. Hell, I knew someone personally who got shot 17 times and survived, and there are even plenty of cases of people surviving free fall. Since we don't know the molarity or type of acid, it's hard to say how dangerous it really was. As for the shark, they lose and regrow teeth all the time. knocking out some of the sharks teeth is nothing, and plenty of people also survive shark attacks.

Taken together, I think it is at least possible for someone to survive O-Chuul's situation. Being submerged in lava though, that's just not humanoidly possible.

[Chronos]

There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.The real question is how someone manages to get submerged in lava to begin with. Lava is a lot denser than flesh, so if a person fell into a pool of lava, they'd float on the surface, with less than half of their surface in contact with the lava. Such a person would obviously be seriously injured, but I'm not sure survival is any more implausible than any of the other things high-level D&D characters (or rare extraordinary real people) survive.

[Kurald Galain]

There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.

Heh. No, as we all know, hit points don't actually represent health, but some kind of agility and morale and luck and so forth to avoid being hit. So even though you appear to be submerged in lava, you actually are, er, not somehow? Because you're all that agile and morale-boosted and lucky and so forth.

[stickygoo]

No.
he would never be tossed in the acid by the hobgoblins, as hobgoblins don't exist, there for he could not have killed either of them. He could not soundly beat the shark because it's not possible for sharks to live in acid. and since there is no acid shark, it's not possible to get the boost of the acid. and he would not get close to smiteing xykon because it's not possible for the dead to walk and it's not possible to channel holy smiting powers. Cockroaches can't talk so the whole thing wouldn't have been arranged. The azure city doesn't really exist there for it's not possible to be held by Team evil.

no it's not possible. happy?

OR, now that i'm done being a wise guy, did you mean is it possible for a D&D character to survive that scenario in a game? I'd say that depnds of the Game Master...

[Craig1f]

The biggest flaw I can see in this comic, is that if I were a DM, and a player opened his eyes while submerged in acid, I would definitely make them permanently blind, removable only after they are restored to full health, and then remove blindness is cast.

[Glome]

Hmm, I totally forgot about the density issue of lava. Getting submerged in lava then is a harder trick than it may first appear.

An interesting point about the acid is that it isn't even strong enough to weaken O-Chuul's bonds so that he can break the rope. It actually took using one of the spikes on the bottom of the tank to free his hands. I don't know how strong acid needs to be to cause someone to go blind, but I'm guessing the acid they are using isn't very strong at all.

I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?

[NerfTW]

Getting submerged in lava isn't what kills you generally.

It's the fact that the temperature is high enough to cause your skin to combust that kills you. Getting near enough to the lava to fall in would mean you're already suffering either heat stroke or bursting into flame. It's not like you can hold your hand an inch away from lava and go "aaaaaah, warm".

[NikkTheTrick]

I don't know how strong acid needs to be to cause someone to go blind,

In reality, in case of being actually submerged, weaker than venegar.

[Newtkeeper]

In reality, in case of being actually submerged, weaker than venegar.

Of course, this is the same reality where no creature of a dragon's build could fly, magic is impossible, and gods tend not to interact with mortals.

[dutch508]

Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.

you know this is a cartoon, right?

[Newtkeeper]

you know this is a cartoon, right?

Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.

[Callista]

I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?Wouldn't be surprising.

Let's assume O'Chul is 6 feet tall. From the bottom of the tank to the top of the acid takes almost three of him--so the depth of acid is about 17 feet. From the top of the acid to the top of the spikes is 12 feet.

When you jump off a high diving board--about ten feet from the pool surface--you have to try to get to the bottom of the pool (12 foot depth) if you want to reach it from just the dive. And this isn't a high board--it's only six feet from board to acid surface. Realistically, O'Chul shouldn't have hit the spikes at all.

Conclusion:
1. Weights inside the boots, or:
2. O'Chul deliberately tried to get to the bottom of the tank, and either somehow messed up on missing the spikes, or found it was impossible to miss them.
3. A liquid that's less dense than water. Could be done magically.

[Greg]

That's impossible!!!!! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GwExDG7n7Zg)

[Callista]

I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?Wouldn't be surprising.

Let's assume O'Chul is 6 feet tall. From the bottom of the tank to the top of the acid takes almost three of him--so the depth of acid is about 17 feet. From the top of the acid to the top of the spikes is 12 feet.

When you jump off a high diving board--about ten feet from the pool surface--you have to try to get to the bottom of the pool (12 foot depth) if you want to reach it from just the dive. And this isn't a high board--it's only six feet from board to acid surface. Realistically, O'Chul shouldn't have hit the spikes at all.

Conclusion:
1. Weights inside the boots, or:
2. O'Chul deliberately tried to get to the bottom of the tank, and either somehow messed up on missing the spikes, or found it was impossible to miss them.
3. A liquid that's less dense than water. Could be done magically.

[T.Titan]

People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.

Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.

[NikkTheTrick]

Of course, this is the same reality where no creature of a dragon's build could fly, magic is impossible, and gods tend not to interact with mortals.
The guy was asking about how strong acid needs to be. I explained to him that eyes in reality can be damaged by pretty much any acid.

D&D, however, does not go into discussion of how strong acid is. From what I remember (correct me if I am wrong) acid is just either magical or nonmagical. Since nonmagical acid causes damage upon getting on skin, we have to conclude that it is pretty strong acid (suplhiric, hydrochloric, etc. at significant concentration).

My point was: lack of damage to eyes cannot be explained by weakess of acid. Anything damaging to skin is devastating ot eyes. The only explanation: D&D rules do not require blindness effect, so it is not there.

Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.
With 100% skin damaged, a person is screwed regardless of graft or no graft.

[Chronos]

Since nonmagical acid causes damage upon getting on skin, we have to conclude that it is pretty strong acid (suplhiric, hydrochloric, etc. at significant concentration).Actually, despite hydrochloric being the strongest of the acids, it's actually relatively benign, as far as damage to humans go. I once spilled some highly concentrated HClaq on my hand, and by the time I walked casually over to the sink to wash it off, it had done enough damage to give me a slight itch that lasted for about an hour.

Now, hydrofluoric, that's a different story. You do NOT want to have any contact whatsoever with that stuff.

[Callista]

That's already in the rules, though. If you want to concentrate on something, you have to make a concentration skill check that increases the more damage you're taking. A spellcaster would be pretty much screwed if he were submerged in acid.

RE. Acid burns: 100% of the body surface can be burned, and you could still survive it even in a magic-free world. Just make sure that a decent portion of that is 1st or 2nd degree burns, from which the skin can still heal, and that your lungs are still working. I wouldn't envy the guy trying to recover from that, though. They don't make painkillers strong enough for burn victims.

Of course, in OOTS-world, you could be healed and survive easily... which is probably why the cleric is there. Theoretically, in D&D you can get mortally wounded thousands of times a day and still survive, given the existence of healing magic. Ouch.

[Superglucose]

The biggest flaw I can see in this comic, is that if I were a DM, and a player opened his eyes while submerged in acid, I would definitely make them permanently blind, removable only after they are restored to full health, and then remove blindness is cast.
Random Speculation (i.e. Rich, go away :smallwink: )

Now here's a random thought: what if O'Chul isn't totally human, what if he's part Aaisimar or something that grants acid resistance?

[Quorothorn]

Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.

Yes, well, we've had people spitted with swords before in OotS and then had them walk away. Heck, by the RAW a melee warrior of Belkar or Roy's power could get dumped in lava for up to half a minute before dieing (assuming mid-to-low rolls on that 20d6/round dmg).

[Jayabalard]

Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.it seems likely that the chance are exactly 1000000 to 1; but then again, million to one chances crop up 9 times out of 10.

[Tass]

Getting submerged in lava isn't what kills you generally.

It's the fact that the temperature is high enough to cause your skin to combust that kills you. Getting near enough to the lava to fall in would mean you're already suffering either heat stroke or bursting into flame. It's not like you can hold your hand an inch away from lava and go "aaaaaah, warm".

Come on, its not that bad. Typical lava is around a thousand degrees, while hotter than ordinary bonfire embers, it will not make you hand burst into flames immediately. You would feel the heat and retract you hand within seconds, if kept there you'd get burns, it would blacken and it might finally burst into flames within several minutes.

Getting into contact with i will give severe burns faster of course. And you are not going to survive long with third degree burns all over you body, but in a world of healing potions and spells, that can be fixed.

Acid is as stated many times, much weaker. Base is much more damaging to flesh. Even concentrated Hydrochloric acid takes minutes to do severe damage. Vinegar would take hours. Eyes are weaker, safety instructions in the lab I sit in now says that it is important to rinse with water within 5 seconds if acid gets into you eye. But it is feasible that O-chul would have just enough eyesight left to locate Xykon.

[Melph]

Funny that you should mention the un-realistic...ness of lava not being instantly or near-instantly fatal in DnD. According to the interwebs, they're changing falling into lava to be an instant death with no save (though it doesn't mention fire resist might change that) in the upcomming edition.

[NerfTW]

Come on, its not that bad. Typical lava is around a thousand degrees, while hotter than ordinary bonfire embers, it will not make you hand burst into flames immediately. You would feel the heat and retract you hand within seconds, if kept there you'd get burns, it would blacken and it might finally burst into flames within several minutes.


2140 degrees farenhiet. Thats' WAY hotter than a bonfire. Remember that it's molten ROCK. This isn't like an oven, which only goes up to a thousand or so. Human skin combusts at 130 degrees farenheit. Keep in mind that all this heat can radiate pretty far. You will start to burn within a few feet.

You would pass out from heat stroke if you got closer than a few feet. Your skin would start to burn very quickly, not in a few minutes. The lava flows people watch tend to have cooled down quite a bit since leaving the volcano.

[Laurentio]

RE. Acid burns: 100% of the body surface can be burned, and you could still survive it even in a magic-free world. Just make sure that a decent portion of that is 1st or 2nd degree burns, from which the skin can still heal, and that your lungs are still working. I wouldn't envy the guy trying to recover from that, though. They don't make painkillers strong enough for burn victims.
There is inducted coma for that.

A acid immerged person, like O-Chun, would be:

deaf (inner ear erosion)
blind (cornea erosion)
skinless (no way you can recover more that a little of skin. Medically, if you lose more that 20% of your skin, it's given for sure that you NEVER regrow all the skin back, or at least a live, "breathing" skin. Final result could vary, depend on acid, concentration and personal regeneration)
poisoned (as acids are usually not edible, and you can't immerge and faint without drinking)
smell-less (as acid in the nose is bad for smelling)
dead (not much for the acid, but for the ENORMOUS metal spike AND acid into lungs)
very, very painful.


But as this is D&D, I trade all with "Very fine, just a little annoyed and maybe -1 to AC?"

Laurentio

[T.Titan]

With 100% skin damaged, a person is screwed regardless of graft or no graft.

That does depend on how much dmg there was (1st degree, 2nd etc.).



Yes, well, we've had people spitted with swords before in OotS and then had them walk away.

Well as long as no important organs where pierced that is not very deadly (i recall seeing a video of someone doing that to themselves once...).
But my point was that surviving a bath in an acid vat isn't that much more realistic them lava...

[Glome]

There is inducted coma for that.

A acid immerged person, like O-Chun, would be:

deaf (inner ear erosion)

That depends on whether it can eat through your skin in time, which I get to later.


blind (cornea erosion)

True, as pointed out to me earlier, even a relatively high PH will do this to you.


skinless (no way you can recover more that a little of skin. Medically, if you lose more that 20% of your skin, it's given for sure that you NEVER regrow all the skin back, or at least a live, "breathing" skin. Final result could vary, depend on acid, concentration and personal regeneration)

Given the limited time he was in the tank of acid, I don't think this would happen. Who hasn't spilled Hydrochloric acid on themselves in lab for the amount of time that O-Chuul has been in that pool? And that caused some minor irritation at most. Also, again the acid can't be that strong if it didn't burn through or weaken the rope or the wooden plank dangling above the tank for who knows how long. Of course the magical nature of healing in DnD makes such issues irrelevent. It's also interesting on another note how a couple people such as Evil Knevil or Jackie Chan have managed to break every bone in their body and keep going (not at once of course). On the other hand, there is no mechanism that would normally allowing them to recover from burn damage.



poisoned (as acids are usually not edible, and you can't immerge and faint without drinking)

Depends on the acid. I should point out that the most easily produced acid in the middle ages would have been hydrochloric acid, which is relatively non-toxic. It would also make more sense that a shark could survive in hydrochloric acid than in say, a more toxic type of acid.



smell-less (as acid in the nose is bad for smelling)

Agreed, acid would probably burn your nose hairs off. I don't know whether they would regrow or not.



dead (not much for the acid, but for the ENORMOUS metal spike AND acid into lungs)
very, very painful.

There is no reason to believe that he got acid in his lungs, if he did he probably be dead. And someone can be punctured by a spike and survive, (assuming they avoid breathing in the acid). But I agree, should someone inhale acid, it would probably kill them considering your lungs have the consistency of tissue paper.

And if if given the choice between stepping on lava or taking a bath of acid (assuming that someone concocted a worse fate if I didn't do either of those two things to me), then I take the bath of acid every time.


But as this is D&D, I trade all with "Very fine, just a little annoyed and maybe -1 to AC?"

Laurentio

True, DnD is pretty simplified for such effects. Even the realistic effects of normal temperature exposure often don't get played in game.

[King of Nowhere]

An interesting point about the acid is that it isn't even strong enough to weaken O-Chuul's bonds so that he can break the rope. It actually took using one of the spikes on the bottom of the tank to free his hands. I don't know how strong acid needs to be to cause someone to go blind, but I'm guessing the acid they are using isn't very strong at all.

Acid takes some time to react; once in the lab I tried to oxidate zinc pellets in hot concentrated hydrocloric acid and it took hours. Different acids act faster, but it will take a lot of minutes to break a rope.


Since we don't know the molarity or type of acid, it's hard to say how dangerous it really was.

The biggest flaw I can see in this comic, is that if I were a DM, and a player opened his eyes while submerged in acid, I would definitely make them permanently blind
A person soaked in concentrated acid would survive for several minutes. That is the time it takes for the skin to melt (depends on acid and temperature), then you die of bleeding (or poisoned because the acid anters in your blood, wichever comes first). Even the eyes would take some time to stop working. The problem is, once the skin has been subjected to acid for some time, it necrotize, but the effects don't appear immediately, so O-Chul would become blind some minute after his bath. And he will die horrible death in a few days if not subjected to magical healing.


I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?

Actually, every strong acid I know has a greater density than water, so O-Chul couldn't have reached the bottom.



Actually, despite hydrochloric being the strongest of the acids, it's actually relatively benign, as far as damage to humans go. I once spilled some highly concentrated HClaq on my hand, and by the time I walked casually over to the sink to wash it off, it had done enough damage to give me a slight itch that lasted for about an hour.
Now, hydrofluoric, that's a different story. You do NOT want to have any contact whatsoever with that stuff.
Actually, hydrocloric is not the strongest acid, because HBr, HI and HClO4 are stronger (I wasn't sure of their english spelling). Hydrofluoric is not even a strong acid, but is nastier because of the fluorine ion. Even solphoric and nitric acid are much worst for the skin. Anyway, that couldn't be hydrochloric or hydrofluoric, because they are volatile, and the two hobbos would have been dead from acidic vapours inalation. Even Tsukiko would suffer severe lungs problem. I would quote for solphoric or nitric, but they have a density of about 1,8 and 1,6 g/cm3 so O-Chul could have never drop into these.


Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.
Yeah, how true. O-Chul needs a new skin in a couple of days. In the real world, we have no means to save him. With magical healing, it's different...

[Theodoriph]

It depends on molarity of the acid. HCL can be really weak or really strong.

No offense to any of you who spilled it on you, but school labs (even university and college labs) don't allow students access to the really cool stuff.

[Chronos]

No offense to any of you who spilled it on you, but school labs (even university and college labs) don't allow students access to the really cool stuff.True, but "the really cool stuff" can be here defined as "stuff other than HCl". No matter how much you concentrate it, hydrochloric acid is never going to be all that dangerous on contact.

Actually, hydrocloric is not the strongest acid, because HBr, HI and HClO4 are stronger (I wasn't sure of their english spelling). Hydrofluoric is not even a strong acid, but is nastier because of the fluorine ion.I was aware that HF is not very strong (in terms of pH), but I didn't know about those acids stronger than HCl. In any event, the point is that the danger of an acid is not determined solely by its strength.

[tiercel]

Meh, I just figured this was just one more piece of comedy/kicking-butt reference to the Power of Hit Points; in the case of O-Chul, he appears to have approximately as many hit points as Bruce Willis' John McClane.

[Callista]

Stomach acid is almost all hydrochloric acid, a pH of maybe 1... If you've ever thrown up with a relatively empty stomach (because otherwise it's diluted by food/drink), you know it's caustic stuff, but it's not going to kill you. Although if you have, I don't envy you the experience. Food poisoning is very not-fun. I had a sore throat for days afterwards.

Hmm... another common experience: Battery acid. About 33% sulfuric acid. Not nice to get on your hands, but once again survivable, especially if the point is to survive for thirty seconds rather than days.

In general, when it comes to damage, D&D is battle-oriented, not medicine-oriented. Poisons act instantly rather than causing effects that show up over hours or even days, as they realistically would. People are either able to fight or unconscious.

(I generally let PCs talk on negative HP. It's more dramatic that way. Actually, I let dead PCs have a few minutes to be "beyond hope of magical healing" but still alive, unless they were totally nuked. It's annoying when the PCs heal the mortally wounded guy who gives them a tantalizingly brief scrap of information before expiring. And it's nice to have an enemy who doesn't just die silently and suddenly; I prefer at least some of them to do things like cursing at the PCs. Seriously, dying is part of D&D; it needs more flexibility.)

Something like acid damage is pretty typical of the system. You end up with acid that kills right away--rather than causing injury that kills a few days later. Same goes for fire. Same goes for battle wounds. D&D isn't really meant to be realistic that way; it started out as a war game, a tactical exercise, and only evolved into role-playing after people figured out (relatively early, granted) how much fun it is to pretend to be the knight who slays the dragon. (Or the dragon who slays the knight, depending.) D&D heroes are generally pretty badass thanks to that system. Wounds don't slow them down until they're actually unconscious, and sometimes not even then; pain has to be really severe, usually magical, before it affects their ability to fight. They can walk through fire and survive. It's not surprising that a swim through acid won't be lethal, either.

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

I'm guessing it was DM cheating :smallwink:

[Arkenputtyknife]

Stomach acid is almost all hydrochloric acid, a pH of maybe 1... If you've ever thrown up with a relatively empty stomach (because otherwise it's diluted by food/drink), you know it's caustic stuff, but it's not going to kill you.
It's dilute hydrochloric acid. Concentrate it, and its pH doesn't change but its dangerousness very much does.


Hmm... another common experience: Battery acid. About 33% sulfuric acid. Not nice to get on your hands, but once again survivable, especially if the point is to survive for thirty seconds rather than days.
I've had concentrated sulphuric acid on my hands in chemistry class. There was a sensation of warmth followed by a rapid dash to the nearest faucet to wash it off. No harm done, no scars, but the idiot who spilled the stuff (wasn't me) got an earful.

Now if you want some serious danger, try hydrofluoric. You won't find it in chemistry class; it's too dangerous. Get it on your skin and you're going straight to hospital for some serious and unpleasant treatment. Unlike other acids, it penetrates rapidly and causes deep burns, and can kill in surprisingly small quantities. It dissolves glass and metals very quickly; my brother used to have to periodically inject some of the stuff into the rubber tubing of some of his laboratory's equipment (for cleaning), and the biggest problem he had was injecting it before the needle dissolved.

[NikkTheTrick]

Now, hydrofluoric, that's a different story. You do NOT want to have any contact whatsoever with that stuff.
It is far less corrosive than HCl. It is a nasty poison, but not a dangerous acid. The bottle I worked with read "irreversible skeletal changes". If memory serves me right, Fluorine displaces Calcium from the bones. And it is very readily absorbed through the skin. I don't know if it can start a gangrene or not. I can only imagine an MSDS sheet saying "in case of contact with a finger, chop off that finger" :smalleek:

Now, THAT would work well as a torture for O'Chul: dump him in HF and bet on how long he lasts untill getting unconscious. That done, heal him up and repeat with a different poison.

[Arkenputtyknife]

It is far less corrosive than HCl. It is a nasty poison, but not a dangerous acid.
Remember that the HF sold as rust removers and for similar purposes is dilute. The stuff my brother worked with was concentrated. Since he worked with it on a regular basis for several decades, I'm inclined to believe him.

While its danger as a poison was my main point, it's stretching things to say that it's not a dangerous acid. It differs from other acids in that it attacks things that other acids don't normally touch, such as glass (do not store in glass bottles!) and oxides, so it's used for things like etching glass, removing rust, purifying silicon and uranium, and cleaning the muck out of expensive chemistry lab equipment — things where regular acids aren't so great.

It's particularly insidious towards flesh, because the fluorine acts more like a catalyst than a reagent, with an effect like a chain reaction: “Fluoride ions penetrate and form insoluble salts with calcium and magnesium. Soluble salts also are formed with other cations but dissociate rapidly. Consequently, fluoride ions release, and further tissue destruction occurs.” — eMedicine (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic804.htm). The result can be horrible: “Hydrofluoric acid (HF) differs from other acids because the fluoride ion readily penetrates the skin, causing destruction of deep tissue layers, including bone. Pain associated with exposure to solutions of HF (1-50%) may be delayed for 1-24 hours. If HF is not rapidly neutralized and the fluoride ion bound, tissue destruction may continue for days and result in limb loss or death.” — Environmental Health & Safety (http://ehs.unc.edu/pdf/HydrofluoricAcid.pdf). Think about that next time you're reading the warning label on the bottle.

One treatment for an HF spill, if it's caught quickly enough, is to inject a barrier of calcium gluconate gel under the skin. I'm told that it's not a pleasant experience.

I don't have much faith in Wikipedia, but its article on HF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid) is informative.

[Tass]

Okay, I've got to set a few things right.

By the STRENGTH of an acid one means its pKa which is NOT the same as pH. Dilution and concentration won't change pKa.

The pH will depend BOTH on strength AND concentration. But pH pretty much loses its meaning for concentrated acids.

Hydrochloric acid is a very STRONG acid, but it can only be made up to 35% concentration, making it relatively harmless over a period of tens of seconds. Stomach acid is several times more dilute.

Sulphuric acid is a bit weaker yet still very strong, its potency comes from the fact that it can be made to a concentration of virtually 100%

Acetic acid is so WEAK that even at 100% concentration it is relatively harmless.

Hydroflouric acid is weak when in water, but is extremely toxic.

One of the strongest acids known is the so called "superacid" HSbF6



2140 degrees farenhiet. Thats' WAY hotter than a bonfire. Remember that it's molten ROCK. This isn't like an oven, which only goes up to a thousand or so. Human skin combusts at 130 degrees farenheit. Keep in mind that all this heat can radiate pretty far. You will start to burn within a few feet.

You would pass out from heat stroke if you got closer than a few feet. Your skin would start to burn very quickly, not in a few minutes. The lava flows people watch tend to have cooled down quite a bit since leaving the volcano.

Thats what I said. 1000 degrees. (Is Fahrenheit still used :p) Ceramics are burned at that temperature (my girlfriends mother lives from making pottery) and Iron are worked at such temperatures too.

130 degrees Farenheit? Yeah dessert people are known to spontaneously combust on the hot days :p.

Seriously though, the dangerous distance depends heavily on the amount of hot stuff as well as the temperature. No one could walk casually around a meter from a big pool of molten rock, or sit and roast sausages over it, I agree. But if there is not so much of it then you can move in and out of the "hot zone" quickly (put you hand an inch from it, go "ouch its hot", and quickly retract it. The point is the human body contains a lot of water, which has a very high heat capacity, so it take a certain amount of time to heat up and damage.

[NikkTheTrick]

Remember that the HF sold as rust removers and for similar purposes is dilute. The stuff my brother worked with was concentrated. Since he worked with it on a regular basis for several decades, I'm inclined to believe him.

While its danger as a poison was my main point, it's stretching things to say that it's not a dangerous acid. It differs from other acids in that it attacks things that other acids don't normally touch, such as glass (do not store in glass bottles!) and oxides, so it's used for things like etching glass, removing rust, purifying silicon and uranium, and cleaning the muck out of expensive chemistry lab equipment — things where regular acids aren't so great.
By dangerous acid, I meant burning the skin, which strong acids do. HF is a weak acid: it does not dissociate as readily in water as hydrochloric or sulphiric acids.

Action of fluoride ion, I'd rather cause poison. In fact, as long as you manage to get a salt of fluoride, dissolve it and then get it on skin, it will do the same damage without having ever been made an actual acid. Therefore, "meh" acid but a nasty poison.

[Cuddly]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_the_shark


It's supposed to be preposterous.

[Sofaking]

I think you all have it wrong. Clearly that tank is filled with Mountain Dew and the acid they speak of is simply citric acid and thats why he survived.

[chibibar]

The thing about HP is that.... it is NOT really = life points. HP basically represent how skillful you are in surviving in the world.

A person like myself can't survive very well in a war zone due to lack of training and being TOTALLY out of shape. (15 years ago maybe) I might survive a small fight (depending on the fight) so that is my HP (would be low)

now take a season fighter who has been fighting for about 20 years... this same person in terms of age, built etc etc can probably take on a whole lot more people and fight longer (higher HP)

Now... the physics, in D&D it is up to the GM, but if a GM can't figure out or don't want to deal with it, there are rules that help GM figure out what happen and such. Don't Forget that O'Chul is a paladin. We have a basic template of a paladin that has special powers BUT we don't know ALL the powers of OoTS paladin :) so it is possible for O'Chul to survive the acid pool.

[bairen]

Back when I worked in a chem lab, I once had my hand soaked in concentrated nitric (over 18 molar). Strong stuff. Strong enough for the skin on my hand to fall off in a grotesque way over the course of the next week or two. And yet, not strong enough for me to immediately notice something was wrong. It wasn't until a few minutes later I noticed the stinging. Acid will mess you up, but it really doesn't work like most people think.

And I can't think of an acid that color.

[Qov]

Seriously, Lime Juice or Mountain Dew are the best nominations so far. Mountain Dew is dyed yellow where I live, but that doesn't meam it's not another colour in Rich's market.

[Sofaking]

Seriously, Lime Juice or Mountain Dew are the best nominations so far. Mountain Dew is dyed yellow where I live, but that doesn't meam it's not another colour in Rich's market.

Yeah, I think Mountain Dew in Canada is messed up. Didn't they stop selling the stuff with caffeine in it?

[Qov]

Yeah, I think Mountain Dew in Canada is messed up. Didn't they stop selling the stuff with caffeine in it?

I don't think Mountain Dew in Canada has ever contained caffeine. Not in decades, anyway. Canadians expect our caffeinated beverages to be brown.

[Ulrichomega]

Mountain Dew without caffiene? Blasphemy! That's the only reason I drink it...

Also, Xykon, wanting to win with his bet, might have put a silenced, stilled, spontaneous, whatever acid resistance spell on him before he fell! I would if I were an epic level lich.

[Darkhands]

Human skin combusts at 130 degrees farenheit.

The sauna I was in last week was about 138, and I'm still here. :smallwink:

[Chronos]

On the subject of lava, the color at which an object glows from heat depends only on the temperature. So red-hot lava is the same temperature as a red-hot stove burner (provided that they're the same shade of red), and something (anything) which is white-hot or blue-hot is hotter than anything that's red-hot. Now, you certainly don't want to touch anything that hot, but you can put your hand a few inches away from it without dying.

And laying aside the real-world geekery for a moment and returning to D&D geekery, by the rules of D&D, it's quite plausible for O-Chul to have survived (especially since we're told that he's unusually tough), with no need for cheating on the part of the DM, Xykon, nor anyone else. The stuff in the tank is acid. We don't need to know what kind of acid, because the rules don't distinguish: It's acid, and therefore it does 10d6 damage a round for full immersion. A moderately high-level character like O-Chul, with d10 hit dice, a high Constitution score, and maybe a feat or two spent on increasing HP, can indeed, by the rules of D&D, survive (barely) a few rounds in a tank of acid, a couple of bites from a shark, impalement on spikes, and a 20-foot fall.

[Craig1f]

It was citric acid. O-Chul's immune system is now in top shape, and his Fort Save has a +4 circumstance bonus.

[Laurentio]

The sauna I was in last week was about 138, and I'm still here. :smallwink:
MAYBE the very high umidity was a factor? You'll find hard to lit a match in such an enviroment.
BUT, at 138 F (that is almost 60 C), skin won't burn if not after a long time. 60 C, not even a paper sheet burns.

Laurentio

[Glome]

On the subject of lava, the color at which an object glows from heat depends only on the temperature. So red-hot lava is the same temperature as a red-hot stove burner (provided that they're the same shade of red), and something (anything) which is white-hot or blue-hot is hotter than anything that's red-hot. Now, you certainly don't want to touch anything that hot, but you can put your hand a few inches away from it without dying.

While that maybe true for the examples you cited, it's not always the case that color reflects the temperature of the object. Otherwise, lasers wouldn't work and certain compounds wouldn't burn with colors unrelated to their actual temperature.

[Chronos]

I was assuming a blackbody, which is a very good approximation for most solids and liquids (such as molten lava and stove burners), as well as very thick gasses (such as the bulk of a star).

[NerfTW]

The sauna I was in last week was about 138, and I'm still here. :smallwink:

I completely stand by my typo.


Now I'm going to go watch people in Arizona burst into flames. :P

[Catskin]

Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.

I think you're right. Don't swim in a pool of acid with acid swimming sharks and expect to cast smite evil on a lich immediately afterwards.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I'm thinking it's because OOTS is based on D&D, and not RPGs. In D&D you get to add to your HP total nearly every other week, while, let's say GURPS, is more "realistic."

In D&D you can leap down a 100' cliff, bounce off the sharp rocks below, and leap into a fight with a dozen warriors still win the battle.

GURPS (at least 3rd Ed), one good sword blow could kill the average "hero," so games like that focus on talking your way out of trouble, instead of fighting your way INTO trouble!

Meh... It's been years since I fooled with GURPS, my memory is probably faulty. I'm sure the Steve Jackson fans will be along shortly to pummel me about my head and shoulders with the rule books shortly. :smallbiggrin:

[Waspinator]

About the lava thing:

It's important to remember that there is no universal standard for lava temperature. The type of rock sets a minimum melting point and maximum vaporization temperature at standard conditions, but you'll still probably have a wide temperature range between those two points.

[kenjigoku]

I completely stand by my typo.


Now I'm going to go watch people in Arizona burst into flames. :P

Yeah, happens every week here. I am afraid to go outside, it's why I play DnD!

[Saco de Carne]

Sometimes the Giant likes to make fun of D&D Rules :smallwink:

[Emanick]

2140 degrees farenhiet. Thats' WAY hotter than a bonfire. Remember that it's molten ROCK. This isn't like an oven, which only goes up to a thousand or so. Human skin combusts at 130 degrees farenheit. Keep in mind that all this heat can radiate pretty far. You will start to burn within a few feet.

You would pass out from heat stroke if you got closer than a few feet. Your skin would start to burn very quickly, not in a few minutes. The lava flows people watch tend to have cooled down quite a bit since leaving the volcano.

Actually, no, human skin combusts at somewhere in the 300s-400s, if you mean spontaneously catching fire. Heck, 138 degrees Fahrenheit has been recorded on the surface of Earth.
Human beings are a lot more resilient than some people in this topic seem to think, on rare occasions. One woman fell more than seven miles without a parachute without dying.