Torture: Fun or Purpose (spoilers)

[Zeitgeist]

Yes, speculation, but I'm curious. Given by what Xykon said at the end of the comic, it seems this dead or alive game that they play has had O-Chul as the main victim multiple or possible all times.

The question is, are they doing it for a purpose (like interrogation) with the added bonus of fun, or for the sole purpose of fun?

I know Xykon would like that kind of thing, but I really find it hard to believe they'd do it repeatedly to the same person for no real reason. I also wonder if he's actually died before, and they raised him just for fun to repeat. Would he even come back? Probably. He seems so determined, he must have a desire to stay dedicated to the city in the life, even if it means pain.

Thoughts?

[Theodoriph]

I can totally see Xykon doing it over and over again for no better reason than his enjoyment. That's completely in character for him. :smallsmile:

[Querzis]

They are definitly not interogating him, just betting on his life. But I dont know why everyone assume O-chul is the only one that had to go through that. They got lot of prisonners and anyone who isnt the «toughest paladin in the Saphire guard» is probably gonna end up dead. They are taking O-chul again and again since hes the only one who actually got a chance of surviving, everyone else is gonna end up dead, its not even a contest.

[kpenguin]

I'm probably horribly wrong, but doesn't the effectiveness of torture come from fear of continued pain or stress? Paladins are immune to fear.

[Querzis]

I'm probably horribly wrong, but doesn't the effectiveness of torture come from fear of continued pain or stress? Paladins are immune to fear.

Yeah but they arent immune to zone of thruth and got horrible bluff check so a cleric of Redcloak level would be able to make O-chul says absolutely everything he knows pretty fast. Torture is a bit useless when you got a high level cleric, you just do it for fun.

[The Wanderer]

Definitely fun. I thought I had was that the idea might even have come from Redcloak, as a diversion to keep Xykon entertained and therefore less likely to randomly kill hobgoblins. (What are the odds of Redcloak appearing in the next comic, sighing, and giving Xykon a lecture about playing nice with his toys? :smallwink: )

[MeklorIlavator]

Yeah but they arent immune to zone of thruth and got horrible bluff check so a cleric of Redcloak level would be able to make O-chul says absolutely everything he knows pretty fast. Torture is a bit useless when you got a high level cleric, you just do it for fun.

You could always remain silent, thus not revealing anything. And its not as if anything would be gained for by him for anything he reveals. In fact, the only way I could see them making him talk is through intimidation/fear, which as said previously, wouldn't work.

[Querzis]

You could always remain silent, thus not revealing anything. And its not as if anything would be gained for by him for anything he reveals. In fact, the only way I could see them making him talk is through intimidation/fear, which as said previously, wouldn't work.

Hum true that. There is still the Brain spider (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Brain_Spider) spell that could achieve that though I'm not totally sure Redcloak got enough levels to cast it.

By the way, I wonder why Xykon and Redcloak had to use the diary to find the gates when a simple Find the path (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Find_the_Path) should be enough (I had completely forgotten about that spell, I just saw it while searching for the brain spider spell.)

[Kurald Galain]

By the way, I wonder why Xykon and Redcloak had to use the diary to find the gates when a simple Find the path (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Find_the_Path) should be enough

Because the throne room (where the gate was found) was warded against scrying.

[David Argall]

Whether Find the Path will work to find the Gate is open to question. the spell finds locations, not objects. So if the gate is ruled an object, which seems correct, the spell fails outright. The spell has a better chance of finding the rift the gate is constraining, but this too can be called an object if you have a hostile DM.

In any case, the spell is of limited time, so it will need a whole lot of castings to find it.

[Callista]

Yeah but they arent immune to zone of thruth and got horrible bluff check so a cleric of Redcloak level would be able to make O-chul says absolutely everything he knows pretty fast. Torture is a bit useless when you got a high level cleric, you just do it for fun.Zone of Truth doesn't force you to say anything. Mind control would be a more logical option.

When you're at Xykon's level, torturing people for information isn't practical anymore. But when you're Xykon, you're evil enough that it's still a lot of fun.

Xykon's options for getting any information O'Chul might have:
1. Dominate Person. Just give the command "Tell me information X", and O'Chul makes a save (because that action is against his nature), and if he fails it, he's forced to spill whatever he knows. Suggestion is another possibility, but if I know Xykon's style, he'd Dominate O'Chul.
2. Hostages. Pick a cute little peasant kid and threaten to dump him into the shark tank instead. Much more effective than dumping the paladin in.
3. Trickery. Xykon's sky-high Bluff is countered by O'Chul's class skill in Sense Motive; but the ranks are still uneven and it'll succeed sooner rather than later. For example, Disguise Person and Undetectable Alignment on a hobgoblin party as Resistance members, stage an escape, and ask your questions under the effect of Charm Person--O'Chul wouldn't tell Xykon anything; but he'd probably be all right with informing people he thought were in the Resistance and his friends besides.
4. Legend Lore and other forms of divination. With O'Chul there, you get a bonus to find the information you want.
5. Kill O'Chul; Speak with Dead.

That doesn't even count psionics into the picture. With a decent psion, it would be beyond simple.

You could easily weaken his resistance with various stat- and save-draining spells.

Zone of Truth and Discern Lies should prevent any attempts at bluffing.

Point being:
If O'Chul knew anything important, Xykon knows it now, too.

Anything he's going through now is Xykon's idea of entertainment--there's no purpose to it other than that.

[Nerdanel]

It's possible that Xykon is intending to turn O-Chul into a death knight or something similar. The shark tank, given its definitely-high challenge rating, would give a good chunk of XP to O-Chul. A series of similar traps would be the fastest possible way of powering up, if they are just barely survivable. And if O-Chul happens to die, the bad guys could just stop the game and turn him into an intelligent undead at the level he had managed to reach. Some other captives may have met that fate already.

If O-Chul has grown powerful enough, it is even possible that Xykon got some XP hitting him with that ray of frost, which would add another level of benefit for him.

Bad for Xykon that undeads lose their constitution score, which means that an undead O-Chul would be a whole lot less durable...

[Grey Watcher]

I figured it's just for fun. As I see it, this game started with an attempt to execute O-Chul in a humiliating and amusing manner. But he survived. When they tried again, he survived again. So now, every so often, they subject him to some crazier, more imporabable form of execution and bet on whether or not he'll survive.

Is there a spell that can restore a person to life and compel the target to come back from the dead? (If memory serves, Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection allow the target simply to refuse to come back.) Or is O-Chul not the only victim in these games? Let's face it, if they keep doing this to O-Chul, and he survives every time, why would Tsukiko bet that he'd die now? (I'm going to assume the wight just bets which ever way his "mother" bets.) Why would the roaches consider Alive (albeit with negative hit points) the longshot?

[Tempest Fennac]

My undertanding is that the victim must want to come back. I would have to agree with your assessment if I'm honest (I assumed they had been gambling with O-Chul's life for a while rather then necesarrily trying to execute him, though).

[Callista]

Is there a spell that can restore a person to life and compel the target to come back from the dead? (If memory serves, Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection allow the target simply to refuse to come back.) Or is O-Chul not the only victim in these games? Let's face it, if they keep doing this to O-Chul, and he survives every time, why would Tsukiko bet that he'd die now? (I'm going to assume the wight just bets which ever way his "mother" bets.) Why would the roaches consider Alive (albeit with negative hit points) the longshot?It could be that O-Chul has surivived the previous attempts with positive HP, having been the subject of a spell like "Hold Person" to prevent escape. The -1 to -9 range is a small part of a high-level character's hit point pool, meaning that as characters get more and more powerful, they are less and less likely to end up alive with negative HP. That means that -1 to -9 is the long shot, the least likely outcome.

A not-quite-resurrection spell exists that, if cast the round after someone dies, brings them back. I don't think it allows you to automatically reject it, though it might have a save... I'm not entirely sure what it's called, though. It's probably clerical, meaning Tsukiko will know it.

[David Argall]

if they keep doing this to O-Chul, and he survives every time, why would Tsukiko bet that he'd die now? (I'm going to assume the wight just bets which ever way his "mother" bets.) Why would the roaches consider Alive (albeit with negative hit points) the longshot?
Presumably each challenge is just a bit tougher. Maybe last time he wasn't tied up when they tossed him in. Or maybe the acid came near the top of the jar and he could get out easier. Or... Anyway, it's a little tougher and so you think he can't make it this time. Alternately, it may be a completely different challenge, which makes it harder to rate the difficulty, and encourages you to think it can't be done.

Alive with negative hp is the longshot because it requires two conditions instead of one. And the added limitation is a major one. O'Chul dies if he stays in the tank and it requires an active effort to get out of the tank, which makes his ability to end up in negative hp distinctly dubious. Indeed, if Xykon wasn't an epic level sorcerer with a well known tendency to kill those who disagree with him, the judge would have likely called it as alive, with positive hp.

[Callista]

Ah. The spell is called Last Breath, and it's a Druid spell. Options include reading a scroll or finding an evil druid. I still don't know whether it has a save.

[Kish]

Why would the roaches consider Alive (albeit with negative hit points) the longshot?
They didn't say "longshot" for the hobgoblin just saying "alive." I'd say they consider "Alive with negative hit points" the longshot because Xykon's the only one who specified anything further than alive or dead.

[SlightlyEvil]

They didn't say "longshot" for the hobgoblin just saying "alive." I'd say they consider "Alive with negative hit points" the longshot because Xykon's the only one who specified anything further than alive or dead.

On top of that, if he hits negative hit points in the tank, he will die, because he'll fall unconscious. It's really hard to find a situation where he survives, but still is unconscious, at the end. Of course, trying to attack an epic-level sorcerer lich after getting out of the tank is a good way to hit negative HP pretty fast.

[Laurentio]

On top of that, if he hits negative hit points in the tank, he will die, because he'll fall unconscious. It's really hard to find a situation where he survives, but still is unconscious, at the end.
Exits the tank with one hit point, falls down, goes negative.
Really improbable? If O-Chun had got a more two damage into the tank, it would had been the true ending. Without Xylon interference.

Laurentio