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Shatenjager
2008-03-25, 12:00 PM
I'm running a game and I keep wondering what a reasonable AC is for my players.

We're currently level 10 and my front liners are above 30 with their ACs. It's so annoying when I reduce almost all my non-spellcaster encounters to "can I roll some 20s."

They are using spells to keep things this high, so my hope is that if I run them ragged they might find danger eventually, but as it stands I can't touch them.

Also btw I'm running from a module and trying to keep to it as much as possible so I don't want to tailor the enounters too much.

I basically am just looking for feedback as to whether I'm letting them cheese out to an unreasonable degree. I'm not opposed to letting them play what they want as this is our last hurrah of 3.5, but I also want to be able to challange them with something other than spells or amazingly powerful fighters.

Corsec1337
2008-03-25, 12:05 PM
They will fear the touch attack... For it is mighty and ignores that expensive armor...

Seriously though, thats how all of my 3.5 experince has turned into eventually. You will get those silly monsters at the end of the module though that can cause the players jaw to drop when they are getting hit all the time all of a sudden.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-25, 12:11 PM
Brilliant Blade cast on someone's weapon will make the cower in fear. :)

Haakon
2008-03-25, 12:11 PM
Depending on the module, fights against spell casters can rid them all of their buffs. Targetted dispel magics and walls of dispel magic will severely reduce the effectiveness of those spells. I was having similar problems with PC's in a game I was running. Spells and effects that can divide up the PC's can work wonders as well. Walls and minions (or walls of minions!) can prevent the PC's from ganging up on your BBEG and allow you to whittle away on one PC at a time.

Don't forget that monsters can use to "Aid Another" action as well, to provide a +2 bonus to hit, as long as they beat a DC 10 check. With numerous mooks making this check, you can greatly increase the change of hitting PC's. Spells effects like displacement, blur, invisibility and being incorperal can aid you as well, since it allows your larger monsters to last long, in order to hit those high AC's.

Maybe modify some small areas so that they severly reduce their, such as climbing or swimming. I know your PC's probably have access to fly spells at this point, but climbing can severely reduce anybodies ACs.

Have your BBEG cast the same spells and take the same actions. I know it will take alot of book work, but it can be done! Good Luck!

Telonius
2008-03-25, 12:13 PM
Some tactics you might consider...
- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
- Other debuff spells
- Dex-decreasing effects
- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
- Tanglefoot bags
- Exhaustion effects
- Trip them
- Flank them

Person_Man
2008-03-25, 12:14 PM
Other then Polymorph, Divine Metamagic, and occasionally Celerity, I don't ban anything. Players can use any books, and get standard wealth by level. The only catch is that I ask them to make their characters together, so that they're reasonably close to each other in power level.

Besides, D&D is has an endless variety of different things you can target: AC, touch AC, flat footed AC, three different Saves, plus various spells that have no Save whatsoever. Every PC is vulnerable, no matter how many defenses they throw up. You just have to be creative as a DM, and mix up your encounters in such a way that they don't feel that you're picking on them or using your omniscient knowledge to thwart them. (You are, but you need to balance encounters in such a way that it doesn't seem like it).

Admiral Squish
2008-03-25, 12:16 PM
I'm in an ECL 16 campaign, and I have a barbarian/fighter with 40 AC, no spells. I ran through all the CR 16 or thereabouts monsties, and it takes a CR 17 dragon a natural 20 to hit me, with my spells on.
However, I only have about 16 touch AC. 20 with shield on.
I suspect he's going to take advantage of that. A lot.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-25, 12:17 PM
I'm running a game and I keep wondering what a reasonable AC is for my players.

We're currently level 10 and my front liners are above 30 with their ACs. It's so annoying when I reduce almost all my non-spellcaster encounters to "can I roll some 20s."

Hi, welcome to D&D 3.5 :smalltongue:


They are using spells to keep things this high, so my hope is that if I run them ragged they might find danger eventually, but as it stands I can't touch them.

Also btw I'm running from a module and trying to keep to it as much as possible so I don't want to tailor the enounters too much.

Modules are often written, seemingly, by the same people who think Monks are overpowered and that Clerics, Druids and Wizards are totally balanced. They also seem to ignore that there are books outside of Core.


I basically am just looking for feedback as to whether I'm letting them cheese out to an unreasonable degree. I'm not opposed to letting them play what they want as this is our last hurrah of 3.5, but I also want to be able to challange them with something other than spells or amazingly powerful fighters.

I know it seems cheesy and ridiculously broken and it is. It's also how 3.5 just is. If you don't want to significantly change the stuff in the modules, add in a "side quest" that involves the bad guys having hired an Epic Level mage to cast a spell for them...

DM CHEESE
Level: Epic
Effect: Choose target PC Party. All opponents they face gain a bonus of n to their attack rolls. n = whatever it would take to make the roll an 11 or better on a d20.

Shatenjager
2008-03-25, 12:24 PM
Ok. I hear you, and it's good that I can believe my players when they say that this is to be expected.

I already know about most of the tricks offered, but again I am running a module by the numbers and the only person to have dispel magic that has shown up so far was dead by the time they realized it was needed.

Good idea about the Aid Another though.

Oh, and btw I just ran them past some incorporeal touch enemies and they still had to roll a 20 to hit (touch AC of 25 on that guy).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-25, 12:34 PM
How are they above 30 in AC? It does sound oddly high; certainly higher than my players' PCs have gone at mid-levels.

Mithral full plate +3, large shield +3, and Dex 16 makes for AC 29, and is a significant investment. Are they within the wealth-by-level guidelines? In my experience, nothing ruins campaign balance like exceeding WBL. (Meanwhile, toning encounters down is always easy, so being under WBL isn't even a big deal.)

Even when you stay within WBL, it's much easier to keep the game balanced if you hand out magic items (chosen carefully), instead of handing out gold and having a Wal-Magic store in every town. ("For all your magic item and custom crafting needs, 24/7/365; we have all DMG items in unlimited stock, and sometimes waive crafting times!")

It was true in AD&D and it's true now: be stingy with cloaks and rings of protection.


But like Mr. Friendly said, welcome to D&D 3.5. "Where magic has no appreciable cost."

Chronos
2008-03-25, 12:37 PM
Oh, and btw I just ran them past some incorporeal touch enemies and they still had to roll a 20 to hit (touch AC of 25 on that guy).If it's only "that guy" that has that high a touch AC, then the solution is for the things that use touch attacks to just not target that guy. A touch AC of 25 is probably a monk, which means that the enemies can afford to just ignore him until after they've dealt with everyone else (i.e., the ones they can reliably hit). Even if he's not a monk, unless he's significantly more offensively powerful than the other characters, it's still good sense to save him for last. With the way the HP system works, it's always worthwhile to concentrate on one opponent at a time, starting with whoever has the most offense and/or least defense.

Worira
2008-03-25, 12:39 PM
Plenty of CR10 monsters can punch through AC 30.

Craig1f
2008-03-25, 12:44 PM
How are they above 30 in AC? It does sound oddly high; certainly higher than my players' PCs have gone at mid-levels.

Mithral full plate +3, large shield +3, and Dex 16 makes for AC 29, and is a significant investment. Are they within the wealth-by-level guidelines? In my experience, nothing ruins campaign balance like exceeding WBL. (Meanwhile, toning encounters down is always easy, so being under WBL isn't even a big deal.)

Even when you stay within WBL, it's much easier to keep the game balanced if you hand out magic items (chosen carefully), instead of handing out gold and having a Wal-Magic store in every town. ("For all your magic item and custom crafting needs, 24/7/365; we have all DMG items in unlimited stock, and sometimes waive crafting times!")

It was true in AD&D and it's true now: be stingy with cloaks and rings of protection.


But like Mr. Friendly said, welcome to D&D 3.5. "Where magic has no appreciable cost."

Add in natural armor, ring of deflection, combat expertise, maybe some skirmish, and dodge, and you can get it pretty damn high.

We just had to fight a horizon walker with AC 34 while fighting defensively. It sucked. Fortunately, my barbarian had a +23 to hit at level 9 (reckless rage, animalistic power, bard song, +2 weapon.

If your players are using mostly magic to get their AC up, try taking Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Protection.

As a standard attack, you can dispel all of their AC-granting spells, except for Cat's Grace.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-25, 12:57 PM
Combat expertise is very situational, and it reduces attack bonus; not a problem in itself. If they're pumping up their AC with Combat Expertise, they're not hitting anything. If they've got medium armor, they won't be skirmishing. Dodge adds +1 against one opponent, and is pretty much irrelevant.

At 10th level, WBL is 49,000 gp.

+3 mithral full plate is 19,500 gp, +3 heavy shield is 9,170 gp. That's 28,670 gp just on the armor. A ring of protection +2 puts that to 36,470 gp; an amulet of natural armor +2 hikes it to 44,470 gp, and you can barely fit in a magic weapon. That's AC 33 (with Dex 16, which you probably don't have with standard point buy if you're wearing the full plate).

'course buffs like barkskin help get there, but buffs are easy to deal with.

Frosty
2008-03-25, 12:59 PM
As a DM, what would you do against a PC with 45 Touch AC, 50 normal AC, 27 F, 25 R, 38 W saves, and immunity to Disease and Compulsion (so Power Words are useless)? HP is pretty average.

Target his allies and ignore him? Force Cage?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-25, 01:03 PM
I'd probably hit them with a level-appropriate opponent like the anaxim or a phane.

Craig1f
2008-03-25, 01:07 PM
Combat expertise is very situational, and it reduces attack bonus; not a problem in itself. If they're pumping up their AC with Combat Expertise, they're not hitting anything. If they've got medium armor, they won't be skirmishing. Dodge adds +1 against one opponent, and is pretty much irrelevant.

At 10th level, WBL is 49,000 gp.

+3 mithral full plate is 19,500 gp, +3 heavy shield is 9,170 gp. That's 28,670 gp just on the armor. A ring of protection +2 puts that to 36,470 gp; an amulet of natural armor +2 hikes it to 44,470 gp, and you can barely fit in a magic weapon. That's AC 33 (with Dex 16, which you probably don't have with standard point buy if you're wearing the full plate).

'course buffs like barkskin help get there, but buffs are easy to deal with.

If you're a full BaB class, fighting someone without a good AC (like a barbarian), using combat expertise to deny them hits is worth it, because you'll probably hit anyway.

Don't get Mithral full-plate, get a mithral chain shirt and pump your Dex to 6. Or get padded and get it higher if you can.

Get a two-handed weapon and an animated shield.

This horizon walker would have destroyed my barbarian if I hadn't been rolling extremely well, getting help from a teammate, and burning action points to get blindfighting every round (he had some kinda greater invisibility thing).

His AC was well into the 30s, he had no trouble hitting my character, and I had to roll at least a 12 to hit him on the first swing. With a +23 to hit at level 9, that's a pretty sick AC. Of course, he was at least a level 11 character, probably more.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-25, 01:19 PM
Pumping Dex that high is going to be even further out of WBL. It comes down to the characters apparently being above WBL, which always leads to trouble, or having good buffs, which is easy to deal with.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-25, 01:27 PM
As a DM, what would you do against a PC with 45 Touch AC, 50 normal AC, 27 F, 25 R, 38 W saves, and immunity to Disease and Compulsion (so Power Words are useless)? HP is pretty average.

Target his allies and ignore him? Force Cage?

At what level? Level 6 hit him with Kelgore's Grave Mist then run.

Depending on the level there are lots of things to do, but I bet Kelgore's Grave mist is one of the most useful, Also quite possibly Web.

I'd have two level 5 Wizards, and level 7 Wizard, Hit him with Web, Vertigo Field, and Solid Fog all in one round. Then kill everyone else while he moves 5ft a round at best. (Obviously you catch about half the party in the effect with him.)

Yakk
2008-03-25, 01:31 PM
Easy trick? Start using defensive combat rolls.

Both sides roll d20. Higher roll wins. Ie, 30 AC is a 10+20. So they roll 20+1d20. The attacker with +10 attack rolls 10+1d20. Defender wins ties. 1s are treated as -10, 20s as 30s.

A defensive roll of 10 or higher means they win. But the total probability works out to 18.5% chance to hit, instead of the standard 5%.

In general, this scales down the importance of modifiers. But it doesn't look like it is just subtracting numbers from the players.

Another rule would be to allow NPCs to take a -2 to damage in exchange for a +1 to hit -- an anti-power-attack.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-25, 01:40 PM
Pumping Dex that high is going to be even further out of WBL. It comes down to the characters apparently being above WBL, which always leads to trouble, or having good buffs, which is easy to deal with.

Not about being above WBL, it's about using your WBL wisely:

Mithril Chain Shirt +1 2150gp
Elf with 18 in Dex, then +2 racial, then +2 points at level
+1 Masterwork Buckler 1165gp
+1 Natural Armor 2000gp
+1 Deflection 2000gp
+1 Luck 2500gp

That's AC 26 with a small part of WBL, add in a casting of Magic Vestments or Barkskin for to get up to the 30s without much Wealth expenditure.

Similar things can be done for other types of characters.

And the OP clearly states that above 30 was using spells, so this is pretty likely.

Don't immediately jump to complaining about Magic Marts just because you hate the idea of a real economy where people can buy things they need. This isn't Wal-Mart, it's the Enlightment where anyone with enough money could pay for someone to make for him crazy device X to test Y. So can any rich person in D&D find a Wizard who will make for him an expensive magical junk thing.

Shatenjager
2008-03-25, 01:51 PM
So yeah, there is a huge magical city in the game so it's not like I can say no without good reason to a reasonable request for an item. The one with truly rediculous AC is a druid/monk who is using shapechange, and spells (such as barkskin) to bring his AC into the stratosphere. The only think I can say is good news about this is that he isn't high damage output but he does an excellent job of putting his large fight form right in the middle of everything and preventing melee opponents from closing with the back ranks.

The other guy is a Abjurant Champion. He's getting almost all of his AC from spells and it's nuts. (yes they stack, yes he has items as well). He's the guy with a stupid high touch attack. His damage output is probably better than anyone else in the party.

I've probably got no problem, as they seem to be having fun. I just like to think that a challenge is more fun than the "you win" game.

Animefunkmaster
2008-03-25, 02:13 PM
Some tactics you might consider...
- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
- Other debuff spells
- Dex-decreasing effects
- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
- Tanglefoot bags
- Exhaustion effects
- Trip them
- Flank them
-Flat Foot them (Surprise Round/grease/marbles)
-Touch Attacks (Grapple works well if your looking for not tailoring the enemies against the pcs)
-Charge Them
-High Ground Bonus (If the enemy can fly that is a sweet +1 for nothing)
-Disarm Attempts (if they lose there weapons whats the point of being untouchable?)
-Rust Monsters (more of a meh for me)
-Antimagic field (goes along with the dispel magic)
-Slowing effects and ranged attacks (Doesn't deal with the high AC but it makes the combat very difficult if they can't move around)
-Wisdom Draining Effects
-Traps (Like fighting in an area where the enemy knows the traps and maneuvers around them while the PCs don't have a clue where they are)
-Buffed up enemies
-Fear Effects
-Invisibility/greater (one time a group of mine had ridiculously AC from a bunch of buffs from an npc, they had to fight an invisible rogue that was flying and it became a standoff of when they could find the square and hit or when the rogue got in a sneak attack... which was actually very fun even though the rogue bit it hard)

Honestly though, once a caster finds a buffed up enemy he should be trying for the dispel check.

Shatenjager
2008-03-25, 02:35 PM
- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
If I get to a point where an enemy has it and reasonable suspects that they should use it I will go hog wild.

- Other debuff spells
Sure, there just aren't a ton of casters harassing the PCs

- Dex-decreasing effects
Sure... More of the same really (or poisons etc, but they knew to prep for that as they did their research on the plane they went to).

- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
Again not alot of casters

- Tanglefoot bags
I've been using spider webs to slow them up, and they work, but I still can't do more than make the combat take longer.

- Exhaustion effects
If they come up, certainly.

- Trip them
Suicidal without the right feats as they will just do a nasty AOO on you.

- Flank them
I do that as much as possible by anything remotely intelligent.

-Flat Foot them (Surprise Round/grease/marbles)
It works, but nothing is packing grease and the druid has a huge spot check.

-Touch Attacks (Grapple works well if your looking for not tailoring the enemies against the pcs)
Provokes and then fails without the right feats. I have tried to do it with things with iterative attacks but that has met with failure (due to combat reflexes).

-Charge Them
It gets done, but but +2 usually takes it down to still needing a 20.

-High Ground Bonus (If the enemy can fly that is a sweet +1 for nothing)
Sure. If it comes up.

-Disarm Attempts (if they lose there weapons whats the point of being untouchable?)
2 problems here. 1st disarming provokes without the right feats. 2nd it just makes them waste an action picking it up. (Sure you get an AOO, but you still need a 20.)

-Rust Monsters (more of a meh for me)
Sir not appearing in this film.

-Antimagic field (goes along with the dispel magic)
Also not appearing.

-Slowing effects and ranged attacks (Doesn't deal with the high AC but it makes the combat very difficult if they can't move around)
So it just makes the game take longer for the NPCs to do nothing. :smalltongue:

-Wisdom Draining Effects
I tried this, but it was with Aleps (sp?) who couldn't land the touch attacks.

-Traps (Like fighting in an area where the enemy knows the traps and maneuvers around them while the PCs don't have a clue where they are)
If it comes up.

-Buffed up enemies
They do when they can, but they usually have very little warning.

-Fear Effects
Sure.

-Invisibility/greater (one time a group of mine had ridiculously AC from a bunch of buffs from an npc, they had to fight an invisible rogue that was flying and it became a standoff of when they could find the square and hit or when the rogue got in a sneak attack... which was actually very fun even though the rogue bit it hard)
Sure it's in the same boat as the buffed up enemies though. They are mobile enough that they can get next to a caster in very little time (plus they are in short supply).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-25, 02:51 PM
The problem is your module. A well built Abjurant Champion build could solo 90% of WotC modules no problem. Add in four punching bags and he'd do well, add in decent characters and it's not a challenge anymore.

Modules are built by people who don't understand D&D.

Bring in casters, bring in traps during the fight, bring in spellcasting monsters that hit them with Fear/Fatigue/Exhaustion/Dex damage/Dispels/entangle effects.

You really have to bring these things in yourself, because modules are really built for people who just started playing D&D yesterday, and so decent tactics against well built or well played characters (not and, just or) would result in complete decimation.

Tehnar
2008-03-25, 02:56 PM
Just a reminder, mage armor and grater mage armor do not get their AC increased form levels in abjurant champion (as they are conjurations, not abjurations, and yes its wrong what it says in the book(about mage armor)).

Also unless druid has acces to wild or beastskin armor, I dont know how he can get all that AC. The best thing for AC as a druid was a fleshraker, and i didnt get over 30 at lvl 10, but its dmg pretty much sucked then. Though its still a broken form.


Insead of using monsters from a modules, substitute some similar monsters from the manuals. Make them fear stuff with improved grab. Dragons are also nice, especially in their territory. Fighting a black dragon in a swamp with lots of water for the dragon to dive in and wait for his maximised breath weapon to recharge. Play monsters smart. Anything with more then 10 int should be able to make the same tactical decisions as your players. When generating hordes of treasure, let monsters use them.

Remember more weak monsters are better then one strong one. And the CR system should be eyeballed not precisly calculated..

Adumbration
2008-03-25, 02:56 PM
Should I be concerned by the fact that my character has AC of 40 at level 12?

With a psion? (Of course, to get it up to 40, I need a few rounds to buff up before fight. Otherwise it's just 30. Touch AC is about 20ish. Did I forget to mention 20% miss chance? Quickened Freedom of Movement? Granted, he only has 43 hitpoints, so if anyone does get a hit in, he's a dead fire elf.)

I may have to gimp my character if it looks like he's going to dominate.

EDIT:

For the curious how on earth I got that much AC:

Ring of protection +3
Amulet of Natural armor +3
Dex 16 (+3)
Defending +1 dagger
Ioun stone (+1 AC)
Inertial Armor (+10 to AC for 13 hours with Overchannel)
Force Screen (+10 to AC for 13 minutes)
Concealing amorpha (20% miss chance)

So, I'm looking at AC of 41.

Frosty
2008-03-25, 03:14 PM
You should be concerned that a True-Striked Orb of <whatever> will leave you with 1 hp on average if fired by a level 12 caster. At level 12, he can also Empower the Orb for a pretty much guaranteed kill.

tyckspoon
2008-03-25, 05:41 PM
EDIT:

For the curious how on earth I got that much AC:

Ring of protection +3
Amulet of Natural armor +3
Dex 16 (+3)
Defending +1 dagger
Ioun stone (+1 AC)
Inertial Armor (+10 to AC for 13 hours with Overchannel)
Force Screen (+10 to AC for 13 minutes)
Concealing amorpha (20% miss chance)

So, I'm looking at AC of 41.

I think you have a classic Psionics Does Not Work That Way here. This rule, in particular, gets overlooked by a lot of people who come up with supposedly broken psionic builds..


The more power points you spend, the more powerful the manifestation. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level,

Force Screen augments at 4 points/ 1 AC; you have to be Epic to augment it to +10 (+6 augment =24 extra power points.) Although you can still get it to +7, I think, if you Overchannel.

Skaven
2008-03-25, 05:55 PM
I find an AC of 15+ your level is usually the golden point to aim for as a melee.

GoC
2008-03-25, 06:03 PM
I'd probably hit them with a level-appropriate opponent like the anaxim or a phane.

QFT!



- Trip them
Suicidal without the right feats as they will just do a nasty AOO on you.
Make one of those CO board trip builds that use spiked chain.

In fact make an optimized swordsage or something.

Frosty
2008-03-25, 06:06 PM
QFT!

I am not familiar with those monsters. The PC in question is only level 18. Are anaxims or phanes CR appropriate for level 18?

Bauglir
2008-03-25, 06:21 PM
I begin to feel bad about my character with 37 AC at level 11. Although Arcane Duelist is probably to blame for much of that. Qualifying as a Hexblade is no fun, let me tell you. Got a weak Fort save, though, so it's not like I don't have a weakness.

Those ACs are pretty decent for that level, though. I tend to aim for 10+1.5 times your level when I don't really care about AC but I don't want to dump it.

I agree with everyone who has said that modules are made for new players. An optimized party will breeze through them like nothing else. If you want a quick fix for encounters, just add an arbitrary number to every relevant number. +4 on all saves, +4 to all abilities, +6 to AC, +6 to attack rolls, etc. No rules justification, just a sort of DM fiat to make things a credible challenge. Mind you, those numbers came off the top of my head, and probably are a poor choice for reasons some later poster will no doubt expound upon.

And those monsters will destroy the party, no matter how powerful they are for their ECL. They're from the Epic Level Handbook. You may wish to aim a bit lower if you're going to punish them. This is just an act of DM fiat, not a challenge.

GoC
2008-03-25, 06:23 PM
I am not familiar with those monsters. The PC in question is only level 18. Are anaxims or phanes CR appropriate for level 18?

A Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) is a time abomination (offspring off a deity and the concept of time). They're really really nasty.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-25, 06:52 PM
Plenty of CR10 monsters can punch through AC 30.This is very true, seems to have been ignored in this thread, and can be shown straight from the SRD! The biggest destroyers of 30 AC at ECL 10 are the Dragons.

Adult Black, CR 11, +24 Attack
Young Adult Blue, CR 11, +23 Attack
Young Adult Green, CR 11, +22 Attack
Juvenile Red, CR 10, +24 Attack
Adult White, CR 10, +24 Attack

Of course you say, "Dragons are supposed to have insane attack bonuses," and I say "True, and they are under-CR'd because of this, among other things." Let us look at some other ~CR10 creatures, good outsiders excluded, even though they usually rock the house for their CR.

Delver, CR 9, +17 Slam, +27 grapple
Bebilith, CR 10, +19 Bite +14 Claws, +29 grapple
Triceratops, CR 9, +20 Gore, +30 grapple
T-Rex, CR 8, +20 Bite, +30 grapple
Cloud Giant, CR 11, +22/+17/+12 Morningstar or +22/+22 Slams, +32 grapple
Fire Giant, CR 10, +20/+15/+10 Greatsword or +20/+20 Slams

'K, I'm getting tired of this. I'm just going through the SRD alphabetically. The point of the story is that the CR 10 area is not short of big monsters that hit hard and well and grapple those foolish full plate wearers.

Paul H
2008-03-25, 08:07 PM
Hi

I understand your problem. Difficult to keep the balance between an exciting game & a threatening one.

In one of our local games I have a dwarf Samurai/Kensai with a 'normal' AC of 26, AC 31 with Combat Expertise - but that lowers my attack to +14 with my Katana of broken doomness. In a straight one-on-one fight I normally win - eventually - even though my Gtr Blurring on my Full Plate usually fails.

The problem I usually have is terrain issues. Flying not good. Swimming - in full plate...? Etc. So look for Tactical advantages - narrow corridors so fighters can't enlarge. Use flying creatures, etc.

Or you could provide more challenging opponents.

Druid 7/Mstr many Forms 2/Warshaper 1 is very difficult to kill in Troll form. (Enhanced Wildshape - SpC grants Extraordinary abilities, Warshaper grants immunity to crit/sneak attacks, etc).

LE Warlock 7/Kensai 3 can seriously dish damage if he limits himself to only one attack/rnd.
Wearing Strong Arm Bracers (MIC Pg139) & armed with Unholy Warmace (CW), Warlock can channel eldritch through weapon for 10D6 plus... damage vs Good per hit. 16D6 dam on crit. (Though only one attack/rnd).

These are just two examples - undoubtably far more out there.

Cheers
Paul H

kentma57
2008-03-25, 08:26 PM
If you build a monk correctly they will losse both their armour bonus and their dex mod laugh as their front liners get beat up by monks :smallbiggrin:

ps: use feats from some non-core books, I can't remember what ones though. I have build one before...

mabriss lethe
2008-03-25, 09:23 PM
Introduce a rival adventuring party into the module. make sure to use many of the same tricks the PCs are using. Cause mayhem. rinse, repeat.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-25, 09:38 PM
I am not familiar with those monsters. The PC in question is only level 18. Are anaxims or phanes CR appropriate for level 18?

Well then I'd hit it with a Level appropriate anything, since most stuff that level can probably just ignore whatever damage you deal while firing off, Save or Dies, or attacks that hit often enough for enough damage. I mean at CR +40 to hit isn't too hard to find.

Course, I could just have a Wizard Share True strike with his Familiar, Fire of a Kelgore's Grave Mist, then a Ray of Exhaustion and a Ray of Clumsiness that's a 12-17 point penalty to Dex, for an average of -7 penalty to AC and Exhausted state. Then I could break out the spells of higher then 3rd level.

Or I could just spam Black Blade of Disaster while flying away for DC 32 Fort Save or Die. So that's a 25% chance of dieing each round.

Obviously I wouldn't do anything really mean like Forcecage/BBD unless you had some way of getting out of it.

sonofzeal
2008-03-25, 09:56 PM
Introduce a rival adventuring party into the module. make sure to use many of the same tricks the PCs are using. Cause mayhem. rinse, repeat.
In such desperate situations I prefer to add NPCs that use my OWN tricks, and thoroughly humiliate them that way. Either the game is cooperative, in which case they should be following your direction on what's okay or not in order to promote smooth gameplay.... or it's competitive, and you have every right to do your best to grind them into the dirt with an appropriate CR monster by optimizing it better than they've optimized themselves.

As a DM, you should never, EVER declare war on your players.... but if they declare war on you, and refuse to heed your warnings.... well, DMs are entitled to some powergaming too. :belkar:

Paul H
2008-03-25, 09:56 PM
Hi

This what happens whens it's 2.30am, you can't sleep & are bored stiff......

Druid 9 Mstr Many Forms 3

In Annis Form - Lge Monstrous Humanoid

Str 25 Dex 12 Con 14 (Other stats as yours)

AC 32 ('Sizing' Dragonhide full plate +1, Animated Lge Shield +1, Nat +10, Dex +1, Size -1)
HP 111 (Inc Heart of Earth spell)
DR 2/Bludgeon
SR 19
Imp Grab, Rake, Rend, Darkvision

Long lasting spells running: All last 1hr/lvl

Heart Of Earth
Heart of Water (With 2 'Heart' spells running grants Lssr Fortification)
Enhanced Wildshape
Gtr Magic Fang (+1 all nat attacks)

With Bite Weretiger up (1rnd/lvl)

Str 37 Dex 16 Con 20

AC 37 HP 147

Attacks: (magical)

2 x Claw +20 (dam 2D6+14)
Bite +18 (dam 3D6 + 7)
Rend 4D6+20
Rake

All this without any other buffs/items, etc.

Cheers
Paul H

Adumbration
2008-03-26, 12:21 AM
I think you have a classic Psionics Does Not Work That Way here. This rule, in particular, gets overlooked by a lot of people who come up with supposedly broken psionic builds..



Force Screen augments at 4 points/ 1 AC; you have to be Epic to augment it to +10 (+6 augment =24 extra power points.) Although you can still get it to +7, I think, if you Overchannel.

At least it works for Inertial Armor: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm


Augment

For every 2 additional power points you spend, the armor bonus to Armor Class increases by 1.

Oh, well, I checked, at least you were right about Force screen. So, it's what, AC of 37? 38? Anyway.

Mojo_Rat
2008-03-26, 12:47 AM
Like some of the previous posters have said. It may be your modual. there are plenty of monsters that can hit a 30 Ac easily and many more that can do so at least half the time.

Coincidentally our group is level 10-11ish right now and We faught a cr12 red dragon who was hitting our tank who has an ac of 30 on 3's with the bite. You may just Have to go throught he Modual and examine the stats of all the monsters.

To the 'moduals are made for people who dont know how to play the game' ground to be honest that statement is rather full of it. Many players don't optimize and Moduals have to be written for the average player. IF they were written with Optimizers in mind many moduals would in fact be uncompleteable by normal players.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-26, 12:59 AM
I assume that a good to-hit is equal to Level + 4, +1/3 levels. A useful AC gets hit by that on a 6. Lower than that and you may as well not even be trying. A passable AC gets hit by that on a 11, which is OK for someone who doesn't want to be hit, but is careful not to be hit via tactics (such as being an archer/caster, or using tumble and spring attack, stealth, etc.). Hit on an 11 is my goal for rangers and rogues. A good AC gets hit on a 16 or higher, and that is suitable for tanks. A great AC get hit on a 19, and any higher is kinda pointless. If a 19 misses, a 20 hits whether it should or not, so having a nat 20 to hit AC just increases how much damage you take when you do get hit, or causes you to be ignored entirely, which you don't want if you have that good of an AC. Also, nat 20 to hit annoys me as a DM, which may lead to overcompensation on the part of the monsters.


Don't sacrifice capacity to draw enemy fire for a high AC. If you have a high AC, you want enemies to attack you, because that essentially wastes their action.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-26, 01:13 AM
To the 'moduals are made for people who dont know how to play the game' ground to be honest that statement is rather full of it. Many players don't optimize and Moduals have to be written for the average player. IF they were written with Optimizers in mind many moduals would in fact be uncompleteable by normal players.

You misunderstand, I said or for a reason. Much experience in the game at all is all that's needed to run through most modules regardless of optimization. So far he's apparently had one caster, some CR 3 creatures (granted underCRed at 3 but still) and some Spiders. Whatever else he has facing them, it hasn't been able to hit AC 30.

So that means:
No big Bruisers, No Casters, No special attack type Monsters other then Web and Wisdom drain from a creature that never had a chance.

If your level 11 party is facing CR 3 creatures, yeah that's a module designed to not ever kill anyone.

leperkhaun
2008-03-26, 02:21 AM
Grapple them.

Talic
2008-03-26, 02:36 AM
As a DM, what would you do against a PC with 45 Touch AC, 50 normal AC, 27 F, 25 R, 38 W saves, and immunity to Disease and Compulsion (so Power Words are useless)? HP is pretty average.

Target his allies and ignore him? Force Cage?

If I needed to hit this one? Avasculate a couple times, and then blanket the area with AoE....

or

Trap the soul, on a gem with his name in it. If he touches it, no save, just die. Don't make it impossible to get, the gem does radiate magic, and don't give it to him as change from the belt of strength.

Put it in a questionable location, and leave the aura on. Otherwise, it's totally unfair.

Oh, and only use this if he pissed off a pretty powerful mage. It's a be all, end all. Especially if that mage traffics with devils. The soul trade's a brisk one.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-26, 03:01 AM
If he has a decent offense, Forcecage might be in order (or for you wizards who are thrifty in both gold and spellslots, Solid Fog stops the fighter who lacks Freedom of Movement).

I say get an arcanist to temporarily shut down his WBL with a chain dispel and then throw a Finger of Death at him. That 27 Fort probably drops to the sub 20's, and any arcanist worth his salt at the higher levels can throw around save or dies with a high enough DC to make Mr. Itemless cringe. Throw in Fatespinner levels and make him reroll successful saves if you want to be mean.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-26, 04:45 AM
How are they above 30 in AC? It does sound oddly high; certainly higher than my players' PCs have gone at mid-levels.

Mithral Plate +3, Large Shield +3, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, 16 dexterity = 31 AC.

That's less than 32k gold, possibly a bit higher if they had to buy a dex booster to put their dex that high.

Incidentally, there are ways of penetrating that fairly easily - touch attacks are a good tactic.

However, there are some foes with pretty high to-hits - clay golems have +14, which may or may not be enough. Hill giants are CR 7 and have a +16 and tons of hit points, so you might use them; fire giants have a +20 attack bonus, so they can penetrate even 30 without too much trouble (and they're CR 10). Similar foes are also useful.

You could use grappling opponents, which can negate their AC fairly readily, and you could use NPCs - a level 8 fighter with weapon focus, a magical weapon, possibly a strength boosting item, ect. could very easily have a pretty high attack bonus (+5 from strength (if half orcs or similar), +1 from WF, +1 from weapon, +8 BAB = +15 BAB, could throw two of them at the party)...

Some demons can probably pose a threat. Giant centipedes and other giant animals/vermin often have good to-hit bonuses as well. Large elementals (or elder elementals) have very large to-hit bonuses.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-26, 06:06 AM
The other guy is a Abjurant Champion. He's getting almost all of his AC from spells and it's nuts. (yes they stack, yes he has items as well). He's the guy with a stupid high touch attack. His damage output is probably better than anyone else in the party.


Oh good, I'd been thinking about taking that class.

Shatenjager
2008-03-26, 11:12 AM
You misunderstand, I said or for a reason. Much experience in the game at all is all that's needed to run through most modules regardless of optimization. So far he's apparently had one caster, some CR 3 creatures (granted underCRed at 3 but still) and some Spiders. Whatever else he has facing them, it hasn't been able to hit AC 30.

So that means:
No big Bruisers, No Casters, No special attack type Monsters other then Web and Wisdom drain from a creature that never had a chance.

If your level 11 party is facing CR 3 creatures, yeah that's a module designed to not ever kill anyone.

I hear what you're saying. It's not that I've only had one caster, only one caster who had dispel magic prepared. Big Bruisers, sure I've seen them, they do ok, but not spectacularly. I just feel like it would be nice to feel like the scrubs can do something. They are in a place right now that if they make too much noise a drow patrol (EL 11) is supposed to come and investigate. They are actually considering just trying to farm drow for minor magical gear. (Yes if they even started trying this I would feel fully justified writing up an elite patrol built to make their lives miserable.)

Is it just a problem with 3.5 that EL is not a good measure of how hard something is? According to XP EL9 and CR9 should mean the same thing. This doesn't seem to be true with groups of smaller enemies.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-26, 11:30 AM
Is it just a problem with 3.5 that EL is not a good measure of how hard something is? According to XP EL9 and CR9 should mean the same thing. This doesn't seem to be true with groups of smaller enemies.

That isn't true for Monsters. EL is not a factor. CR is.

Try this: Halk Dragon Drow Monk 1=EL 6 CR=4.

Brown Bear EL=9? CR=6.

Don't base things on EL, use CR. And my point was just that modules are like that. CR 3 creatures against a level 11 party is silly. I wouldn't run a module with my group, most of which can't optimize themselves out of a paper bag.

Example characters include:
Half Celestial/anything
Gargoyle of some kind (+4 LA, 4RHD and apparently defining abilities are flying and DR magic plus some weak natural attacks.)
Warmage with 16 Cha 16 Int at level 12 (before items thank God)
Warmage with 18 Int 14 Cha at level 12.
Elven Rogue, Dex based, Weapon Finesse, TWF. Most unimaginatively stock character ever, also one of the most powerful in the group.

I have to drag them kicking and screaming to play a caster that isn't a warmage. When I was really busy with course work for a while I ran a couple modules. I ended up redoing half the monsters/fighting in different places/changing monster tactics/slapping on templates left and right because they were trouncing the whole thing.

This was Warmage, Warmage, Rogue, Half Celestial Cleric. (As things progressed, and he got to about ECL 12, which is to say Cleric level 8 he started to out damage the rogue.)

The_Werebear
2008-03-26, 11:52 AM
Another idea for puncturing the AC- Replace some of the more powerful monsters that are having trouble hitting with a horde of weaker foes. It is the same CR to run into 60 goblins rather than an elite Drow Patrol. However, With that many dice being rolled, there will be natural 20s. Also, it is kinda scary to see that many crossbows pointed at you. Nothing is quite so intimidating as the DM asking for every D20 on the table, looking at the pile, and saying "not enough" with a sigh.

The really ironic thing- Many powerful builds are designed to deal massive damage to one foe/tie down a few foes/weaken a few enemies very badly. There are fewer popular spells that can deal with crowds of enemies (Black Tentacles Aside).

Frosty
2008-03-26, 12:03 PM
A FIREBALL typically does the job. Protection from Arrows, windwall, hell, any of the Fog spells really. 60 goblins with crossbows is not a huge deal.

The_Werebear
2008-03-26, 12:34 PM
A FIREBALL typically does the job. Protection from Arrows, windwall, hell, any of the Fog spells really. 60 goblins with crossbows is not a huge deal.

But who takes Fireball in a Batman Build? Fog spells cause problems, but again, most of them are going to miss anyway.

Windwall, sure. Then it becomes the goblin wave rather than goblin massed crossbow volley. That, or then they wheel out the balista. And you can always have it backed up with a wizardly leader who can throw out that dispel magic when needed.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 12:48 PM
One goblin wizard? Hey look, now the group has a target! Off the enemy wizard, and the fight is yours. Wands of Fireball are fairly common. Have your rogue/bard/beguiler UMD it if they have to. Level 1 goblins will die to a minimum level CL5 fireball. There's also Kelgore's Grave Mist, and lots of spells that stay round after round and do damage. Whelming blast is also good as a cone if they're bunched.

If the goblins aren't bunched and they aren't all fighting at the same time...then the fighter should have no problem mopping up level 1 goblins that aren't mobbing him all at once. Or hell, a few points of DR and the party can ignore the crossbow fire.

There's a reason Belkar didn't get exp for killing all those Hobgoblins.

The_Werebear
2008-03-26, 01:13 PM
Or, y'know, you can always have them serving as fodder for the real threat too. And I was wrong on the number of goblins. If my calculations are correct, then it should be closer to 100 goblins for a CR 10 encounter. Imagine that coming from all three tunnels of a fork in a dungeon, or from the woods. It would be capable of probably requiring the burning of the prescribed 1/4 of resources for an encounter that the DMG suggests.

Fireball is never high on anyone's priority list. Even wands. I have never seen anyone carry one. And the only person I know who took fireball took it only because they were using it to clear rubble and intimidate foes, and he was a flame based wannabe warmage sorcerer. In any case, I said that there aren't many powerful spells are area of effects. Not that there are none. And they can always come from multiple directions.

The reason that I suggested it in any case was not because it would be an unstoppable juggernaut of power that would destroy the party utterly. I put forward the idea because it is A) a change from the normal structure, where the challenge is more "less bigger monster" than "more smaller monsters" and B) it is a different way to hit a higher AC; rather than a few big accurate attacks, you try massed volleys, a tactic that the party is often unprepared to handle based on the fact that many builds tend to prepare for the bigger monsters.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 01:20 PM
Well, I guess if you can make them expend enough resources, then giving them exp is fine too. Although tunnels are even easier to deal with in terms of battlefield control imo.

Craig1f
2008-03-26, 02:33 PM
I find an AC of 15+ your level is usually the golden point to aim for as a melee.

My 2 cents below

Barbarian In Rage:
AC = 10 + level(you're going to get hit a lot. It comes with the class. If you can get the AC higher, by all means do. But you're probably a low-dexterity, light-armored combatent)

Non-melee combatents (spellcasters):
AC = 10 + level (focusing on deflection bonuses and anything that raises your touch AC). Any full-BaB class will hit you if they want to. You want to deny iterative attacks and power attacks when possible. You want to focus on deflection bonuses so that other spellcasters have a somewhat difficult time hitting you with ranged touch attacks.

Non-barbarian melee(Fighters, Duskblade, Cleric, anyone wearing full plate):
AC = 15 + level (you need the extra AC to tank by not getting hit)

Dexterous elusive fighter (Scout, Rogue, Abjurant Champion, Dervish, some Fighter Builds, anyone using combat expertise):
AC = 20 + level (opponents should have a difficult time hitting you. Anyone without full BaB and a decent STR score will find it impossible to hit you without a nat 20)

Shatenjager
2008-03-26, 03:00 PM
I can pretty safely say that the majority of the party could SOLO 100 goblins with Crossbows. (At least either of the two that I'm worried about).

Perhaps damage spells aren't high on your lists, but the wizard of the group is using a reserve feat for infinite small fireballs (meaning he always has fire spells memorized).

The druid has the same ability actually.

The Abjurant Champion might be challanged, but he would kill them 3 or 4 per round. More if he decided to take a nuke spell (and knowing the player it's a possibility).

The only people that would possibly hurt are the people that seem to be built reasonably.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-26, 04:34 PM
That isn't true for Monsters. EL is not a factor. CR is.

Try this: Halk Dragon Drow Monk 1=EL 6 CR=4.

Brown Bear EL=9? CR=6.

I think you're getting ECL and Encounter Level mixed up. One CR X creature is an encounter of level X +/- 1.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-26, 05:10 PM
I think you're getting ECL and Encounter Level mixed up. One CR X creature is an encounter of level X +/- 1.

Then why on Earth are we talking about EL at all? EL equal CR in every situation, they are two names for the same thing. And what on Earth did the person I was replying too mean when he said EL whatever =CR?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-26, 07:15 PM
May I suggest against the 100 man encounter, purely for logistical reasons? All the rolling, and the damage-keeping... Unless one of those mob rules that I haven't learned cuts down bookkeeping sufficiently and still makes it a worthwhile encounter, just make sure the Drow ask their friend Mr. Red Dragon to deal with the adventurers.

Avor
2008-03-26, 07:32 PM
So, your AC is stupid? Ok, how's your will and reflex save?

AC means you dominate melee, and that's it.

The_Werebear
2008-03-26, 09:34 PM
May I suggest against the 100 man encounter, purely for logistical reasons? All the rolling, and the damage-keeping... Unless one of those mob rules that I haven't learned cuts down bookkeeping sufficiently and still makes it a worthwhile encounter, just make sure the Drow ask their friend Mr. Red Dragon to deal with the adventurers.

Actually...

Mobs and swarms are a great idea for this. Your AC doesn't matter, if it rolls over you, you start getting eaten. And they are a bitch to kill.

GoC
2008-03-26, 10:17 PM
One goblin wizard? Hey look, now the group has a target! Off the enemy wizard, and the fight is yours. Wands of Fireball are fairly common. Have your rogue/bard/beguiler UMD it if they have to. Level 1 goblins will die to a minimum level CL5 fireball. There's also Kelgore's Grave Mist, and lots of spells that stay round after round and do damage. Whelming blast is also good as a cone if they're bunched.

If the goblins aren't bunched and they aren't all fighting at the same time...then the fighter should have no problem mopping up level 1 goblins that aren't mobbing him all at once. Or hell, a few points of DR and the party can ignore the crossbow fire.

There's a reason Belkar didn't get exp for killing all those Hobgoblins.

I've got an idea!
8 level 6 artificers. They all dual-wield wands of orbs of cold that they quicken and maximinize using metamagic spell trigger!
That's 8*2*(6d6+6*6)=912 damage.
Distribute it among party members as needed.

zerombr
2008-03-26, 10:42 PM
I believe that ultimately a reasonable AC is one where you can hit it half the time, ie your BAB +10, a good AC is when you can hit it 1/4 of the time. but if I need flanking, five buff spells and three tricks to hit you once, then you're just too much.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-27, 01:36 AM
Then why on Earth are we talking about EL at all? EL equal CR in every situation, they are two names for the same thing. And what on Earth did the person I was replying too mean when he said EL whatever =CR?

No, it doesn't. According to the table, and like I said, a single CR 6 opponent can be EL 5, 6, or 7. Four CR 4s and two CR 6s is EL 10.

I don't know what Shatenjager was on about. EL has nothing to do with XP calculations (although it generally ends up around the same amount, but again, CR X can be EL X-1 to X+1); it's used for treasure and to plan the encounters in an adventure (10% EL <X, 20% EL ?, 50% EL X, 15% EL X +1 to +4, and 5% EL X +5, per DMG page 49).

I find it usually works as a guideline, although since I like to actually challenge my players, I use their level as the minimum EL, and put the "climatic fight" at X+4 or X+5.


The DMG does acknowledge that a bunch of low-CR enemies won't be worth anything, and it's pretty obvious. 10-12 CR ½s are EL 5 to 7? As if. A 5th-level party will wipe them out with one spell, and will definitely not take any damage. At 5th level and above, PCs can destroy nearly any amount of low-hp mooks without any significant effort.