On Rust Monsters

[CockroachTeaParty]

Is there ever an appropriate time to sick a rust monster on your PCs? Although I've always wanted to cackle maniacally as the humble aberration destroyed its weight in precious metal equipment, to me it seems the monster is simply cruel. It appears to be a cheap way to correct mistakes to the wealth by level guidelines, when the PCs manage to take down a high level NPC and get gear that makes them brokenly powerful for their level.

Is there ever a time for using a rust monster? I can only see an encounter with a rust monster ending in anger. Are these creatures simply tools for DM vengeance, punishment, or cruel amusement? Does anyone have any interesting rust monster stories?

For purposes of this discussion, other equipment-destroying creatures are appropriate as well, such as Black Puddings, Folugubs, or even Ethereal Filchers.

[Zincorium]

Rust monsters: There is a time and place for running around naked and beating something with a rock you picked up off the ground.

[Occasional Sage]

Is there ever an appropriate time to sick a rust monster on your PCs? Although I've always wanted to cackle maniacally as the humble aberration destroyed its weight in precious metal equipment, to me it seems the monster is simply cruel. It appears to be a cheap way to correct mistakes to the wealth by level guidelines, when the PCs manage to take down a high level NPC and get gear that makes them brokenly powerful for their level.

Is there ever a time for using a rust monster? I can only see an encounter with a rust monster ending in anger. Are these creatures simply tools for DM vengeance, punishment, or cruel amusement? Does anyone have any interesting rust monster stories?

For purposes of this discussion, other equipment-destroying creatures are appropriate as well, such as Black Puddings, Folugubs, or even Ethereal Filchers.

My group is playing Paizo's Savage Tide adventure path, which includes a rust monster encounter. The combat features waves of bullywugs and, at one point, their pet rust monster; the fight was large, with too many people on each side in too small a space, and everybody jockeying to avoid the rust monster. There are four of us, level five at the time, with about as many NPCs (of slightly lower level).

The fix we found for the r.m. turned out to be disarming the bullywug chief of his greatclub (via the spiked chain specialist fighter), which was picked up by the ranger and used to beat the snot out of the beast. I don't remember what was lost to the special attack, but at most, I think, it was an NPC's armor.

We actually had a great deal of fun with that one. Generally there's a large dose of deus ex in bringing Rusty to the party, but this one was a great experience. I think the PC level is about right, where you can afford to replace things reasonably (ie, still have just masterwork or small-plus equipment) if melee is required, and casters aren't yet the walking deities they tend to become later.

[bugsysservant]

Well, they are nice against a VoP character. *Something* has to make them feel optimized...

[hamlet]

Rust monsters are fine, as long as you realize what they are.

They are not monsters. They are traps masquerading as monsters. Treat them like traps, and suddenly they are far cooler and far more entertaining.

[Number 6]

I think that the rust monster is simply cruel. It should only be used if the players have been given some clue so they can prepare for it.

A lot of the monsters in the old first and second edition monster manuals seemed to be downright sadistic, not to mention silly, and should never be used. If Gygax invented them, his reputation as a killer DM was justified. ("Heh, Heh. Sphere of Anhillation in the statue's mouth. Priceless.")

Remember that monster that looked and felt just like a sword until you used it in battle, then it came to life and bit your hand? How did random evolution ever come up with that one?

How about the leeches that hid in doors and jumped into your ear when you listened at the door?

The mimic was bad enough with shape shifting, then he had to give it the glue attack too.

Also, the jermelaine, super stealthy little runts whose only purpose was to take out sleeping characters.

The plant that looks just like a Beholder but blows up in your face if you hit it with a spell? Sick.

The gelatonous cube that's nearly invisible until you walk into it, then, whoops, you're paralyzed and can't do anything while you're digested, except watch your party kill you while trying to kill the cube.

Finally, the cave fisher. Resoponsible for the second most painful TPK I experienced.

[RTGoodman]

The only time I've seen Rust Monsters used is a few weeks ago in our XCrawl campaign. One of the challenges in the Crawl was a 10' deep pit that extended all the way down the hallway and had several (2-3) Rust Monsters in the bottom. The design, I assume, was such that players would have to wait a minute until the monsters were distracted or something and then just try to sprint across.

Of course, we had one archery Ranger and a bunch of people with ranged attacks, so I (the Gnome Wizard) just jumped in a ran across while everyone else was trying to kill them. The DM realized no one was gonna risk anything, so he basically just said, "Alright, it takes a while, but you kill them all. Now just go across." I guess he expected to rust away some equipment... :smallwink:

For suggested encounters, try this. The following trap is from Dungeonscape, so I assume the Giant had something to do with it. The art is priceless:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dungeonscape_gallery/102796.jpg

Now just replace the Owlbear with a Rust Monster, and you'll be golden. And by "golden," I mean "without any players." :smalltongue:

[Blanks]

capture your players. take away all their high end gear.

Let them escape and get new (low end) gear.

Rust monster them and laugh maniacally.

Let them get new gear and rust that as well.

Continue until you get it out of your system.

Let them find their old gear plus something new.

Profit for everyone! :smalltongue:

[SilverClawShift]

Rust Monsters work best when used as a "DANGER: DO NOT ENTER" type monster.

You're right. If the DM throws a monster at us that utterly destroys my armor, shield, and weapon, I'm gonna be a little peeved. Not to mention, it slows the game as we now have to attempt to re-stock our supplies (we could press on, but any halfway intelligent party is going to realize that the warrior needs a breastplate and pointy stick of some kind to help the group).
But if the desperate owner of a silver mine is begging someone, anyone, to help him because a group of rust monsters are running rampant in his mines, attacking workers and destroying equipment... At least we know what we're in for heading down into the pits. We're heading for a rust monster, and anything we don't want ruined is best left with someone trustworthy in town.
In which case, you find a way to subdue the horrible creature and stick it in an ironwood cage built when you found out about this situation. And then you lug the thing around, feeding it cheap goblin short swords to keep it hale and hearty. And then when the blackguard/bounty hunter who's been tracking you for months charges out of the woods for the fourth time, hell bent on cutting off your faces to collect the price on your lives, you make a trip attack to knock the blackguard off his horse and prone, sunder the lock on the ironwood cage, and dimension door a few hundered yards away, just close enough to hear the blackguard curse in rage when his armor turns into dust around him and the rust monster takes a heavy chunk of his HP, softening the sucker up for you to put an end to things once and for all.

Not that that's ever come up.

[Admiral Squish]

On the subject of rust monsters, do alternate materials rust? Adamantium, mithil, cold iron, alcheimical silver, all that good stuff. If it does, is there any way around it asides from a gauntlet of rust?

[sikyon]

Remember that monster that looked and felt just like a sword until you used it in battle, then it came to life and bit your hand? How did random evolution ever come up with that one?


More like how did a random (crazy) mage ever come up with that one?

[Kyeudo]

This is why I like Mundane Crystal. It's almost impervious to most forms of weapon destruction, just because its made of rock.

[Kol Korran]

as a DM, i quite like the rust monster. and no- i don't use it as some sort of terrorising/ punishment tool. but this depends on how you use it, how your players percieves it, and the situation:

- there are many other monsters who do worse when they succeed on their special attacks- medusa and beholder for example, or the recently mentioned on the thread catoblapes? many players seem far too attached to their stuff, then to their characters. ("what, it might kill me? chaaaarrge! what, it might turn my magical armor to scrap? Ruuuuunnn!") strangely, in roleplay sysytem where what you have matters less than what you are, a loss of an item, even a serious item isn't that importent... make the change for your playing group...

- on the WoTC site, there are some articles about monsters makeover (i think that's how they're called). one of them deals with the rust monster, changing her touch to a "metal weakening" touch (decreasing armor bonus, or weapon damage). you might wish to adopt it to make these guys less problematic.

- rust monsters are unique monsters, and as such should be used in unique situations. i found them especially usefull with conjunction to other creatures, or circumstances. for example:
1) as mounts for goblins wearing leather armor, armed with bows/ javelins/ and lances. (used that as a special cavalry against a warforged unite, in Eberron).
2) while escaping some collapsing dungeon/ fort, the party comes to a fork, one way is longer and perilious, the other is short, but may have several rust monsters present. (an interestign option). the rust monsters are could nicely be linked with stirges for example (who sucks blood of armorless opponents).
3) the monster was domesticated by druids, and helps protects their groves (bringing the "city dwellers" to a more "natural" state).

there are many ways to use this lovely creature, as there are for many other rarely used monsers... just be creative, make it feel a part of the place, and not something the DM just stuck in there, and it will pay off.

[senrath]

I like rust monsters, but mostly only in one of two situations.
1. The PCs were doing something incredibly stupid that lead them to the rust monster.
2. The PCs can either easily win with little to no loss, or they can easily replace/upgrade their gear.

[Occasional Sage]

as a DM, i quite like the rust monster. and no- i don't use it as some sort of terrorising/ punishment tool. but this depends on how you use it, how your players percieves it, and the situation:

*snip*

for example:
1) as mounts for goblins wearing leather armor, armed with bows/ javelins/ and lances. (used that as a special cavalry against a warforged unite, in Eberron).
2) while escaping some collapsing dungeon/ fort, the party comes to a fork, one way is longer and perilious, the other is short, but may have several rust monsters present. (an interestign option). the rust monsters are could nicely be linked with stirges for example (who sucks blood of armorless opponents).
3) the monster was domesticated by druids, and helps protects their groves (bringing the "city dwellers" to a more "natural" state).

there are many ways to use this lovely creature, as there are for many other rarely used monsers... just be creative, make it feel a part of the place, and not something the DM just stuck in there, and it will pay off.

Option #1 is clever, I like the flavor of it. I'm dubious of their utility as mounts in terms of speed and such, but for the cool image WHO CARES? Heck, give them ironwood Horseshoes of Speed and have a real party!

Option #3 is.. brilliant. Kudos!

[Squash Monster]

I threw them at my party in a fair way. The rust monsters were giving a dwarven iron mine a whole bunch of trouble, and the party stepped in to fix things. Since they knew they were going to have an entire adventure based on exterminating rust monsters, they prepared and got a few obsidian blades and left their equipment elsewhere. It made for a pretty good adventure.


I think rust monsters in general are a great idea for a monster, and not sadistic at all. In something other than D&D. D&D's system puts far too much emphasis on items, and rust monsters are far too deadly a foe in such a system. If we were in a medieval setting instead of a high fantasy one, rust monsters would be scary without being utterly devastating.

[Prometheus]

The CR of a rust monster is 3. There is only so much they can lose at that level.

Usually though, I provide an NPC or knowledge check that gives them enough warning describe what the creatures of the area are.

[FlyMolo]

This is why I like Mundane Crystal. It's almost impervious to most forms of weapon destruction, just because its made of rock.
Where are the rules for this? Because now I want a PC dressed entirely in crystal weapons and armor. Best of all, doesn't violate your vow of nudity. :smallwink:

But yeah. Rust monsters shouldn't be able to destroy magic weapons of +2 or better, just make useless for a few minutes. Just because IC) at that level included in the +2 is a charm against rust-monstering, and OOC) That stuff's too expensive.

[Dode]

What happens if a Rust Monster attacks a metallic creature, such as an Iron Golem or Warforged?

[Ascension]

I'm not sure about warforged, but for the iron golem baaaaaad things happen.

Yep, the rust monster is the CR 3 critter that can beat a CR 13 monster.

Unless the golem pummels the rust monster to death before the rust monster lands a touch attack on him.

[senrath]

If I remember correctly, it just hurts the warforged really badly, but doesn't outright destroy it.

[Admiral Squish]

Warforged take... 2d6 damage from a rusting attack, reflex half.

Also, iron golem loses it's fists if it attacks the thing. They aren't know for their high reflex saves, after all, and it does say any metal weapon, which I'm pretty sure iron golem's slams count as.

That would make a nice twist, actually. Mad wizard's tower is supposedly gaurded by his iron golem. When the PCs get there they find a pile of orange-ish dust, just when the rust monster comes around the side of the tower, it's mandibles covered in fine orange powder.

[F.L.]

I recall from some supplement dwarven cavalry on rust monsters with hide armor, wooden shields, and stone warhammers.

[Pronounceable]

Rust monster is a relic of the old Gygaxian style dungeoncrawling, like mimic and other assorted you lose monsters. Not that they are bad, but it's rather incompatible with the player friendly attitude of recent editions.

And rust monster predates WBL concept by some decades.

[shaddy_24]

I remember a thread in the wizards boards where people came up with the most lethal, creative and evil (but still survivable) traps they could. The best one I saw? You walk through a doorway. Make a save (Fort or Will, your choice). If you fail, you turn into metal. You gain a huge strength and natural armor bonus, but your speed lowers. The finally?

Rust monsters swarm out of nearby doorways.

[RS14]

I think that with sufficient warning, there is nothing wrong with an occasional Rust Monster. For example, set your encounter in some enormous industrial complex. The players will be able to see rust everywhere, and may well find the Rust Monster before it finds them. Then you can use all sorts of tricks, like collapsing the floor/ceiling/vat wall. :smallbiggrin:

Now the real question: is there ever a real place to use a Rust Dragon? A Wyrmling is CR3, has a rusting bite, a rusting breath attack, and can fly. It seems just cruel. :smalltongue:

[Mojo_Rat]

cnsvnc More or less has it. The problem Is that the new Game is... Well in alot of ways it Coddles players. They are not used to Weapons or armour being destroyed players will often get more upset about item destruction than character death.

So even though for example a Adamantium sword using imp sunder Fighter as an oponent might be a valid oponent most Dm's would be considerd Jerks for using it. Its a problem partially of the modern game design really.

[Swordguy]

I remember a thread in the wizards boards where people came up with the most lethal, creative and evil (but still survivable) traps they could. The best one I saw? You walk through a doorway. Make a save (Fort or Will, your choice). If you fail, you turn into metal. You gain a huge strength and natural armor bonus, but your speed lowers. The finally?

Rust monsters swarm out of nearby doorways.

...duuuude... :smalleek:

And I agree with Mojo Rat. Newer editions (really, modern game design) have made RPGs much more of a power-fulfillment exercise than a serious game based on overcoming difficult challenges. They're both valid ways to play. I just prefer the older game style. I don't feel the need to live vicariously through my PC.

[NEO|Phyte]

This is why I like Mundane Crystal. It's almost impervious to most forms of weapon destruction, just because its made of rock.

Until the DM digs up the psionic version of the rust monster, which targets crystalline items.

[tyckspoon]

So even though for example a Adamantium sword using imp sunder Fighter as an oponent might be a valid oponent most Dm's would be considerd Jerks for using it. Its a problem partially of the modern game design really.

There's a significant degree of difference between sundering and a rust monster, tho. Sundering (at least in the current rules) disallows targeting armor and leaves space for an item to be repaired later on (although it's still damaging to the player, since expensive items are also expensive to fix.) Rust monsters just make stuff gone, short of Wishing it back. If you happen to face more than one at a time, you can end up completely stripped inside of a single turn- weapons, armor, shield, rings, even your cash. Sundering stuff is being aggressive with your players. Siccing rust monsters on 'em is like fighting with Disjunctions at higher levels.

[Rutee]

cnsvnc More or less has it. The problem Is that the new Game is... Well in alot of ways it Coddles players. They are not used to Weapons or armour being destroyed players will often get more upset about item destruction than character death.


And I agree with Mojo Rat. Newer editions (really, modern game design) have made RPGs much more of a power-fulfillment exercise than a serious game based on overcoming difficult challenges. They're both valid ways to play. I just prefer the older game style. I don't feel the need to live vicariously through my PC.
Your points would be more valid if they weren't quite so smug, perhaps. Though really even then.. gear destruction is so important on a statistical level (As in, the character's ability to handle enemies of a remotely similar CR) that you can't really claim "It's EZ Mode to not utterly decimate player stats like that".

[Khanderas]

I would say that the points are perfectly valid.
Seems everything is being made easy nowadays. Take one level of Wizard and you are immediatly and inherently better then an Adept. Same with Warrior and Fighter. If you dont have enough loot, point to WBL and claim your "rights" to fair loot. If you need to upgrade your +1 sword to a +4 just enter a town and pay the cash at Spells n Swords R us. *shrug*

The only counterpoint that is valid is that the "old" system was, if you wanted it to, quite sadistic.
a) you dont peek around the corner and walk into an ambush.
b) you do peek around the corner and get beheaded by a peek-around-corners-axtrap.


There is amusment to be had how adventurers risk their lives with glee, but facing a rust monster or vampire, and those adventures cry foul or runs away so they wont lose their plate or levels. </end musing>

[Tsotha-lanti]

The rust monster worked great in D&D first edition and in AD&D, where your weapons and armor were equipment, instead of irreplaceable parts of your character that defined your powers and capabilities, the way they are in D&D 3.0 and 3.5.

As a DM, I'm not going to go through the trouble of recalibrating my PCs' equipment after they lose random parts of it to a rust monster, just so they won't suddenly get beat up by previously level-appropriate encounters.


Luckily, there's plenty of d20 games where your character is defined by class and feat choices, instead of your equipment. (Heck, you're supposed to start Conan adventures by depriving the PCs of their equipment. They can rearm themselves off the first enemy they encounter and strangle.)


So Mojo_Rat is right that the problem is with 3rd edition, but wrong that it's about players expecting coddling. The way the game works, you're screwed if you lose your weapons and armor. If characters weren't so equipment-dependent, rust monsters (and all the million other situations where PCs would reasonably lose their equipment) wouldn't require a second thought.

[Kioran]

Your points would be more valid if they weren't quite so smug, perhaps. Though really even then.. gear destruction is so important on a statistical level (As in, the character's ability to handle enemies of a remotely similar CR) that you can't really claim "It's EZ Mode to not utterly decimate player stats like that".

It just isn´t easy mode because gear has become an integral part of the character - characters are nowadays expected to be capable of doing things that require them to be spellcasters or have magical equipment - which you then can´t destory without "crippling" them. Which hurts RP, badly, because you neither disarm, nor capture them, nor give them new motivation making the rich adventurers dead broke. I´m not saying that´s the usual modus operandi, but occasionally can make for a nice plot. Having made gear sacrosanct and the DM not putting himself above that is, in a sense, bad for the game.

P.S.: The above qoutes weren´t that smug at all. They could be interpreted in several different ways, and interpreting them as intentionally offensive or such is somewhat passive aggressive.

[Swordguy]

Your points would be more valid if they weren't quite so smug, perhaps. Though really even then.. gear destruction is so important on a statistical level (As in, the character's ability to handle enemies of a remotely similar CR) that you can't really claim "It's EZ Mode to not utterly decimate player stats like that".

What do you expect to find when you're primed to take offense at anything that doesn't involve your favored style of gaming? Seriously - I've watched it in over about a dozen threads over several months now. Honestly now, what part of "They're both valid ways to play" did you misunderstand?

There's no smug meant there - you're reading stuff into it. Again.

Anyway, gear destruction is something I like to use to highlight the fact that the entire current model of D&D is broken - the idea of "you aren't your gear" is one that I'm seriously looking forward to in 4e. Rust monsters in earlier editions were something put there to keep fighters in check...IIRC there was something similar that ate spells per day to keep casters in line, though it's not nearly as famous. A good DM will have the rust monster target items in the general order of "least sentimentally valuable to the PC to most valuable". So, if the PC has been doing the whole "carry my ancestral sword and armor set" for the last 9 levels, it's bad form to have the RM eat that first off...even if it's the largest set of metal on the PC. Have the RM eat a belt or something to give the PCs a chance to use those "shucking armor quickly" rules while they frantically look for a stick to beat the thing to death with. After the first meal (which is several rounds, since it rusts the target and then eats it on the spot as it's given attack pattern), the gloves come off and the RM will go after the largest food source regardless of its value. Again, having it eat the proceeds allows the PCs time to react to it. Dropping the party fighter into a 30' pit full of rust monsters, while vastly amusing, is dirty play, unless the PCs have an idea beforehand they might run into rust monsters.

Has anyone ever sicced a RM on a Kensai? Did the player cry after the RM ate their pretty weapon (and requisite XP sink)?

[JBento]

I generally disagree with Swordguy - not on principle (which would just be jackass'd) nor because he's necessarily wrong. We just tend to have diametrically opposed viewpoints.

But this time, I have to partially agree with him (DAMN YOU, Swordguy, for having a logical, undeniable argument:smallwink: ). 3.X D&D is, in survivability terms, "you are your gear". If you don't have the right amount amount of gear (and the right KIND of gear at that) you're either dead or cowering in a corner, praying to the whole pantheon that stuff ignores you (unless you're a full spellcaster, in which case you can be so overpowered anyway that low gear only prevents you from, say, owning encounters 4+ CR above you singlehandedly).

The "character features trump gear" is one of the stuff I most look forward to in the up-coming 4E. That, and the fabled "class balance" - IF WotC can pull it off (though this may be putting too much faith on the guys who came up with Complete Champion, Serpent Kingdoms and Diplomacy - oh gawds, Diplomacy).

[Ascension]

I personally think anti-magic fields are a much more fun and balanced form of player-screwing. If you think they've got too many magic items, don't let the rust monsters eat their stuff, stick them in an AMF and let them fight with masterwork weapons for a while. Oh, and without their mages. I'm definitely planning at least one AMF-based encounter for whenever I DM sometime in the future.

...that being said, I think I'm going to go with the crowd and say that rust monsters are justifiable if you give your players plenty of advance warning. Like say they've been warned about a group of gnomes who like building golems to protect their stuff, but the door to their armory just has two big piles of rust next to it... That's when they start hiding all their metal. If you're feeling especially nice, let them be confronted by some fleshy guards who have wooden weapons on them, so they can loot some anti-rust-monster gear before heading in.

[Draz74]

Where are the rules for this? Because now I want a PC dressed entirely in crystal weapons and armor.

The XPH and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/specialMaterials.htm).

[BardicDuelist]

Well, personally, we play D&D a little differently than I have experienced in other places. We stick between Lv. 1-10, which helps to maintain game balance. We also don't use PrCs (this is all with my primary group). And I do everything I can do make it a game where people are not dependant on their equipment (other than to use as tools).

That being said, my players are used to Dispel Magic being spammed on them, rust monsters eating their stuff, and traps that screw with them. We like to focus on roleplaying and strategy, not combat with large numbers (either damage or DCs). I guess it helps that they are all people that learned on 2ed (except myself).

Now, this isn't the "right" way to play, and I enjoy playing other ways as well. It's just how we play. In that type of game, rust-monsters and spellthief enemies are very useful and viable. In the "standard" way people "seem" to play D&D, they are pretty sadistic.