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Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-25, 11:14 PM
Let's say a warforged character has gained Half-fiend template, thus becoming an Outsider rather than a construct. Does it retain its living consturct subtype hence most of its normal traits? Or would it just become an outsider with augmented construct subtype, losing almost all of its original racial traits?

Ruling on SRD seems to indicate the latter, but I just wanted to know what other people thought about 'em.




edit: 'how' not 'out'... :smallredface:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-25, 11:17 PM
Let's say a warforged character has gained Half-fiend templateQuestion. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-25, 11:19 PM
Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Oh well, for argument's sake let's say it has somehow became an Outsider, how about that? :smalltongue:

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:20 PM
Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Constructs are creatures, too.

Subtypes are almost impossible to lose, so you retain the 'living' subtype, against all reason. Unless the template says that you lose all original subtypes, then you keep them.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:20 PM
Question. How? Half-fiend can be applied to a living corporeal creature, not a corporeal living construct.
Small but important distinction.

Living construct.
Half-fiend can be applied to any living creature.
Where is the issue?

Admiral Squish
2008-03-25, 11:23 PM
Oh well, for argument's sake let's say it has somehow became an Outsider, how about that? :smalltongue:

An imp got caught in the gears of the creation forge, and before the artificers could pull it out, out comes our friendly little warforged half-fiend.

By RAW, it would lose all the features of living construct. However, by logic, it would just gain half-fiend traits on top of everything else. Whatever the DM decides.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-25, 11:23 PM
Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:25 PM
Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

No, it isn't. 'Living' is a subtype, not a template. He's asking a question according to RAW, not your RAI. Please don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:25 PM
Living construct is a template that removes many of the benefits/disadvantages of being alive. I'm AFB right now, but I think it removes the ability to add templates. Even if it doesn't specifically, Warforged don't breed. By RAI you would have to do a lot of creative manipulation to explain how you became half-anything.

An Archfiend did it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-25, 11:36 PM
No, it isn't. 'Living' is a subtype, not a template. He's asking a question according to RAW, not your RAI. Please don't make assumptions and try to pass them off as fact.After a quick search for the wording, Living Construct is a subtype that was not accounted for in the original printing of Half-fiend. A Warforged is a construct, and therefore counts as a construct for the purposes of applying templates. "Living Construct", as written, has no effect on whether or not a Warforged is alive other than in the situations that it states.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-25, 11:37 PM
An Archfiend Wizzerd did it.

Fix'd, by an archfiend.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:39 PM
Fix'd, by an archfiend.

Being a wizard doesn't make him any more fiendish, and therefore no more likely to sire a half-fiend...

Mewtarthio
2008-03-25, 11:40 PM
Fiends are avatars of Evil, composed entirely of hatred and destruction. How can they breed with humans?

For another explanation:

Evil Artificers spent a whole lot of money building a construct meant to emulate a fiend.
An unfortunate fiend got his arm chopped off in the Warforged Factory, and it got mixed in with the other stuff.
Magic. They used magic to infuse gunk from the lower planes into a Warforged at its construction.

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:40 PM
After a quick search for the wording, Living Construct is a subtype that was not accounted for in the original printing of Half-fiend.

That's where most of the weird crap in D&D comes from: not accounting for things that are printed later.


A Warforged is a construct, and therefore counts as a construct for the purposes of applying templates. "Living Construct", as written, has no effect on whether or not a Warforged is alive other than in the situations that it states.

Again, Half-Fiend applies to a living creature. What part of "Living" doesn't mean living to you?

Dode
2008-03-25, 11:42 PM
A Psuedonatural Warforged, according to e-tools is an Outsider (Living Construct) and is doable.

A Half-Fiend Warforged isn't.

The difference is that one can be applied to "any living corporeal creature" and the other says "any corporeal creature". I suppose it depends on how literal you take "Living Construct" subtype to be.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:44 PM
A Psuedonatural Warforged, according to e-tools is an Outsider (Living Construct) and is doable.

A Half-Fiend Warforged isn't.

The difference is that one can be applied to "any living corporeal creature" and the other says "any corporeal creature". I suppose it depends on how literal you take "Living Construct" subtype to be.

I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:45 PM
I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

Yes, they even get a bonus.

Chronicled
2008-03-25, 11:45 PM
I forget. DO warforged have constitution scores?

Yes, they do. And a Con bonus.

Edit: Gah, I almost beat you to the punch there, Nebo_.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:49 PM
Yes, they even get a bonus.

Then they're alive. Simple as that.

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:50 PM
Nemo_

>.< Nebo. And the _ is silent.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-25, 11:50 PM
Again, Half-Fiend applies to a living creature. What part of "Living" doesn't mean living to you?On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?
Edit:Ninja'd by Dobe.

Chronicled
2008-03-25, 11:52 PM
>.< Nebo. And the _ is silent.

:smallfrown: The letters are so close together... only an "n" to seperate them...

The _ was just for fun. To be fair, I didn't try and speak it aloud.

Nebo_
2008-03-25, 11:53 PM
On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?

No, but nothing does. Humans for example have nothing that specifies that they're living creatures. It's common sense; just like logically deducing that a living construct is living.

Collin152
2008-03-25, 11:53 PM
On a re-read, it doesn't say either way whether or not they count as living for the purposes of templates. They are constructs that "combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures", and the page goes on to list which immunities they do and don't get, but it never actually says if they should be considered living, construct, both, or neither for the purposes of templates or prestige classes. Annoying. Do the Eberron books ever go into more detail?
Edit:Ninja'd by Dobe.

They have a constitution score, and as such are living.

holywhippet
2008-03-25, 11:59 PM
If I was going for an explanation of a warforged who is an outsider I'd say the builder was recruited for the blood war and made an army of them. Most were killed and the builder was assassinated by the other side. The parts used in construction all came from the lower planes which makes it an outsider.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-03-26, 12:05 AM
The Warforged becomes an Outsider[Augmented Construct, Living Construct, Native]. It retains its original traits and adds the Half-Fiend ones.

What's the issue here?

Solo
2008-03-26, 12:22 AM
They have a constitution score, and as such are living.

I'm pretty sure things with Con. scores are living, and things without are dead.

Undead and Golems, for example, have no Con score.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-26, 06:13 AM
I also seem to remember that there's a spell that grants the 'half-fiend' template. I'll look it up.

Edit:Aha, got it - very quickly, as well.

From the Lost Empires of Faerun excerpt on teh web - (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=3)


Nar Fiendbond
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: V, S, M/DF, XP
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Target: One humanoid with Int 4 or higher
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You turn the subject into a half-fiend by imbuing it with the essence of the infernal planes. The subject can have no more character levels than you do, and it must either be willing to undergo the transformation or be restrained in some manner. Upon completion of the spell, the subject can attempt a Will save to avoid gaining the half-fiend template. Failure (or a waived saving throw) indicates that the subject's form visibly changes, gaining physical qualities that show its fiendish nature (horns, tail, wings, and the like). In addition, the subject's type changes to outsider, and the moral component of its alignment changes to evil.

The newly created half-fiend also gains a +4 level adjustment, raising the XP required for it to achieve its next character level. For example, a 5th-level sorcerer who becomes a half-fiend by means of this spell becomes a 9th-level character who needs 45,000 XP to gain his sixth class level.

You cannot cast Narfiendbond on yourself.

Arcane Material Component: Precious gems with a total value equal to the XP cost of the spell.

XP Cost: 500 XP per character level of the half-fiend created.

So there's how we grant our warforged the template.

JBento
2008-03-26, 06:22 AM
Solo is, as usually, right (though unfortunately without the jokingly manner I have come to expect and chuckle with). Presence or absence of a Constitution score is what defines a creature as living or not. This is RAW in Core - it's lurking in the PHB glossary I believe, though I'm AFB right now and can't confirm.

However, I don't think the Half-fiend template can be applied to a Warforged as it states it's an inherited template, and Warforged don't reproduce.

EDIT: @Illitterate Scribe: Target: Humanoid. No warforged allowed.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-26, 06:23 AM
However, I don't think the Half-fiend template can be applied to a Warforged as it states it's an inherited template, and Warforged don't reproduce.

That's what Nar Fiendbond is for.

JBento
2008-03-26, 06:24 AM
That's what Nar Fiendbond is for.

Expected that: Previous post edited :smallsmile:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-26, 06:33 AM
Excellent point. But, at least it gives a backgroundy explanation as to how it might be possible; given that fiends can possess, say chairs (Fiend of Possession PrC), it would certainly be feasible for them to bond with a warforged.

JBento
2008-03-26, 06:40 AM
You don't have to go that far. Fiends can possess creatures and, as such, they can possess Warforged. No need to bring in the idea of the chair you sit in is, indeed, a demon... waiting... listening... plotting... getting sat on... hmmm... on second thought, I'll just possess the lovely lady's nightgown, if you don't mind :smallwink:

Doesn't one of the Fiendish Codices give the rules for possession? I have the faintest of ideas that if it gain total control, it can alter the host. Can it alter it enough to warrant the template?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-26, 06:48 AM
Leaving aside your nightdress fantasies (:smalltongue: ), it can certainly grant the host increased or decreased ability scores, and the picture given for the PrC class in the FF does certainly look a little fiendish.

Arbitrarity
2008-03-26, 06:49 AM
Fiend Folio has the Fiend of Possession PrC. It can take over its host for a few rounds, but only on a failed save (which it can force an attempt at each round). After 3 consecutive successful saves, it has to wait 24 hours before trying again. It also gets a few other things, like virtual enhancements, (wow, a +5 flaming vorpal weapon? Isn't that epic?) ability boons, and of course, object possession.

Solo
2008-03-26, 05:42 PM
Solo is, as usually, right (though unfortunately without the jokingly manner I have come to expect and chuckle with).



To be fair, Collin pointed it out first.

Of course, this just means he gets to share in my glory of me being right.

ps. I can't joke all the time. Then you'd just take me for granted

EvilElitest
2008-03-26, 05:43 PM
Living construct.
Half-fiend can be applied to any living creature.
Where is the issue?

the lack of reproductive organs?
from
EE

Solo
2008-03-26, 05:46 PM
the lack of reproductive organs?
from
EE

Don't ask how it happened. It was probably very messy.

As in the fiend injecting his essence into the Warforged at the moment of creation, if you know what I mean.

Collin152
2008-03-26, 05:47 PM
the lack of reproductive organs?
from
EE

It's a godamned demon. He can have sex with a door and produce viable offspring if he wants to.

Citizen Joe
2008-03-26, 07:12 PM
Aren't the Inevitables essentially Outsider Warforged?

Collin152
2008-03-26, 07:13 PM
Aren't the Inevitables essentially Outsider Warforged?

Constructs, I do believe.

Zincorium
2008-03-26, 07:33 PM
Inevitables are Constructs with the (extraplanar) subtype. Like the various nightshades are undead with the extraplanar subtype.

According the monstrous manual, the half-fiend warforged would be an Outsider (augmented construct, living construct, native) with outsider traits and construct features.

How living construct interacts with this... no freaking idea, since it basically overrides almost all the traits of it's type, and as far as I can tell, creatures never lose subtypes.



On a different but similar note, what do you guys think about a warforged taking the dragon disciple prc and calling himself a dragonforged? Over the top? Against the rules? Am I the only one who thinks that would be even slightly cool?

Collin152
2008-03-26, 07:42 PM
On a different but similar note, what do you guys think about a warforged taking the dragon disciple prc and calling himself a dragonforged? Over the top? Against the rules? Am I the only one who thinks that would be even slightly cool?

Best use of Dragon Disciple ever.

Jothki
2008-03-27, 12:38 AM
On a different but similar note, what do you guys think about a warforged taking the dragon disciple prc and calling himself a dragonforged? Over the top? Against the rules? Am I the only one who thinks that would be even slightly cool?

Only if it replaces its head.

Ascension
2008-03-27, 02:19 AM
Slightly cool? That would be awesome. Totally awesome.

I don't really like the Eberron setting, but if I ever get roped into playing in it, I'll be sure to remember this concept. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I have a friend back home who's playing a gnome bard/dragon disciple. Not optimized, but funny as all get out.

Chronicled
2008-03-27, 03:43 AM
You know, this would be really nice to mix with Alter Self...