Elan is Old Europe, Nale is America

[Laurentio]

Before someone kick my butt out of existence, this thread is mostly humoristic in intention. And yes, I'm Old European (italian).

ELAN (the european): traditional, romantic, bound to the past and to the trama (to the point of risking the life for a plot device). Sings a lot.

NALE (the american): modern, pragmatic, inventive but over-the-edge. Will do the same thing Elan do, but using new, inventive and unnecessarily complicated ways. Have a military machine that is powerful as hard to control (Thog).

I won't speak of intelligence. They seems equally idiots to me.
(Extra point for "Durkan is Ireland")

Laurentio

[boomwolf]

While amusing, I seriously doubt it.

[Charles Phipps]

Actually, it's not a bad description.

Maybe because I imagine Nale adopting a fake accent.

[Craig1f]

I see what you're going for, but it's quite a stretch.

[Ziggy's_Roady]

Are ye daft, lad? Durkan is Scotish!

[NENAD]

The parallels are there, but I doubt it was intentional.

It would be more accurate if Nale had won a string of non-stop victories a while back and still hasn't figured out that his winning streaks been broken. Nale, as far as I can tell, has never won at anything.

[Tempest Fennac]

Also, I don't think Nale's Int is that bad; his Wis stat appears to be as bad as Elans is though, which is why all of his plans turn out to be needlessly complicated (combined with the fact that he likes needlessly complicated plans so much).

[R.O.A.]

Are ye daft, lad? Durkan is Scotish!

Aye, he most definatly is. He's no Irish!

[LCR]

I don't know, US-Americans seem a lot more dramatic to me than Europeans ...

[Stiz]

I'd have to say that being loud and annoying is much more of an american trait. I know that I've done my fair share of running though the streets singing at the top of my lungs.

[Felixaar]

^I do the same thing and I'm Australian.

[Paladin29]

Well, I am spanish and I see some parallels between Elan and Don Quijote :)

[Bavarian itP]

Before someone kick my butt out of existence, this thread is mostly humoristic in intention. And yes, I'm Old European (italian).

ELAN (the european): traditional, romantic, bound to the past and to the trama (to the point of risking the life for a plot device). Sings a lot.

NALE (the american): modern, pragmatic, inventive but over-the-edge. Will do the same thing Elan do, but using new, inventive and unnecessarily complicated ways. Have a military machine that is powerful as hard to control (Thog).

I won't speak of intelligence. They seems equally idiots to me.
(Extra point for "Durkan is Ireland")

Laurentio

1.) Elan ist not traditional. He is genre-savvy, but so is Nale. And V. And Roy. And Xykon, the oracle, the demon roaches ...
2.) Elan doesn't look particulary romantic to me. "Wanna make out" was the perfect thing to say at this time, but romantic? His reaction to Haley explicitly stating that she's in love with him doesn't strike me as particularly romantic, neither.
3.) Elan is not "bound to the past" in any way, sorry. He lives for the moment.
4.) Bound to the drama: Yes, of course.
5.) Sings a lot: How is this a specific European trait?

Yeah, you did this for fun, but it is completely wrong nonetheless. You constructed traits of Old-Europe and America and put Elan and Nale in this Procrustean bed. It doesn't work. But don't feel bad, many people do this. The whole idea of an "old" and an "new" Europe exists only because of it.

And I concur to the "equally idiots" thing.

[Laurentio]

Seems that someone got a feeling like "Nale is bad, and America is worse". Not the point, thanks. We are trying to have fun. For deep socio-political geo-reference, please check the other forum. (Which other one? I don't know).

Let's try with: "Nale, like Tom Sawyer, has some of the distinctive tracts that are usually referred to a ipothetical, fictional embodiment of America".
And note that it's not "american" but "America". The country, not the population.
It's politically correct enough? If yes, we can go over.

Durkan is Scotland? I can go with this. But I'd say that Scotland is a little more... er... sore.

EDIT: excellent, Bavarian itP (I read after the post). I disagree on the "not bound to the past". Elan is bound to the past as a class feature: he is a bard. While Nale never learn from past errors (that is a Villain feature, obvioulsy).
Yes, is heeeeeeavly stretched. As I premised, is for fun.

Laurentio

[Mr Horse]

um... I don't... I don't see it.

[pendell]

While I appreciate the contributions of the OP and the other people in this thread, I strongly doubt that backfitting a thinly-veiled allegory on American politics/troop deployments was at all what the Giant had in mind.

Y'know, part of the reason I come here is I am, in fact, a political junkie and occasionally need a break from that ^%##$#$. I don't appreciate seeing it here.

Respectfully,


Brian P.

[BisectedBrioche]

Seems that someone got a feeling like "Nale is bad, and America is worse". Not the point, thanks. We are trying to have fun. For deep socio-political geo-reference, please check the other forum. (Which other one? I don't know).

Let's try with: "Nale, like Tom Sawyer, has some of the distinctive tracts that are usually referred to a ipothetical, fictional embodiment of America".
And note that it's not "american" but "America". The country, not the population.
It's politically correct enough? If yes, we can go over.

Durkan is Scotland? I can go with this. But I'd say that Scotland is a little more... er... sore.

EDIT: excellent, Bavarian itP (I read after the post). I disagree on the "not bound to the past". Elan is bound to the past as a class feature: he is a bard. While Nale never learn from past errors (that is a Villain feature, obvioulsy).
Yes, is heeeeeeavly stretched. As I premised, is for fun.

Laurentio

I would say Durkon is scotland. After all like most fantasy dwarfs he has a scotish accent and scottish sounding name.

Also, what do you mean sctoland is "sore"? :smallconfused:

[Qov]

While I appreciate the contributions of the OP and the other people in this thread, I strongly doubt that backfitting a thinly-veiled allegory on American politics/troop deployments was at all what the Giant had in mind.

I didn't take anything from the original posting about American politics per se. The Old World/New World divide between Europeans and Americans is as old as the American Revolutionary War. It's a stereotype often proudly worn by Americans: the self-reliant upstart doing things his own way, choosing and defending the benefits and disadvantages of an armed citizenry, while the staid Europeans follow tradition. The movie version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen put Tom Sawyer on the team to play this role. If you have come of age in the 21st century, perhaps you don't remember that the international stereotype of the US was not always as it is now.

The singing goes with the emotional openness of Old World men. It used to be that Russian hockey players would kiss their teammate after he scored a goal. Singing and other emotion-baring acts were okay for Europeans, but the American man had to be John Wayne.

In that light I don't think it really fits Nale and Elan. For example, I'd like to mention that Elan doesn't shrink from overly complicated plans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) of his own. But my not agreeing with the OP doesn't invalidate the thread nor make this backfitting. Compare it to the one on what the members of OotS like to read, or what automobiles/Disney rides/trees/zoo animals they most resemble. I was going to say "foods," but that's already been done (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html).

If you don't think it fits, what countries would you assign to the brothers? They sprang from the same source but reared differently, one has talents lying in culture and the other is intent on world domination. I was going to name a couple but now it's hard to name a nation with any history that hasn't had taken a stab at world domination, really. [OMG! Nale is totally Portugal?]

[pendell]

If you don't think it fits, what countries would you assign to the brothers? They sprang from the same source but reared differently, one has talents lying in culture and the other is intent on world domination. I was going to name a couple but now it's hard to name a nation with any history that hasn't had taken a stab at world domination, really. [OMG! Nale is totally Portugal?


Can't, really. Countries are full of all kinds of different people and I don't really see the need to stereotype them.

The brothers remind me more of people I knew in high school/college. Elan is the happy-go-lucky guy that all the girls love but somehow can't stay out of trouble. He nonetheless manages to charm his way out of it. Tom Sawyerish, definitely.

Nale... he really *wants* to be the villain, but he's not. He's the sideshow, and is apparently too into himself to realize that. I equate him with Scott Evil in the Austin Powers movies ... the 'margarine of evil', if I remember the phrase correctly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

So, I'm like Elan?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Paladin29]

It´s infinitely better to be Elan than to be Nale.

[Kai Maera]

[QUOTE=pendell;4111475]Can't, really. Countries are full of all kinds of different people and I don't really see the need to stereotype them.
QUOTE]

Your political correctness makes reality cry.

Countries act in certain ways, usually in accordance with the manner of their current leadership. The people in a country, sad to say, don't really matter when it comes to how a country is seen.

Haley is many things inside, but only one person outside. She is not an elf because her intelligence is, a goth because her self loathing is, etc.

So along those lines, I'd say that Roy is probably the better example for America at the moment -- strongest power, waning as other have their go.

Elan is pretty Swiss methinks, due to his singing and trained ability to use a weapon that he has used like 3 times total.

Nale is so German it hurts, though. Since both countries came from the same mixing of people-groups, that's cool.

[Paladin29]

I am not an specialist in Germany, bu germans appear to me as honest and direct people... these aren´t Nale characteristics.

[Kai Maera]

I am not an specialist in Germany, bu germans appear to me as honest and direct people... these aren´t Nale characteristics.

Sorry for the mispell, jeez. He's so Germany* that it hurts.
And if you argue that Germany is honest and direct, you need a history book.

[King of Nowhere]

It´s infinitely better to be Elan than to be Nale.

Uhm, I'm lucky to be like Elan...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! (2)

[Paladin29]

Well, I don´t think I need a history book, my education in that field of knowledge is pretty good, in fact i must add that we must analyze the people of the country not the politics of that country. However if you want to explain why Germany as a political being (don´t go beyond 1848) is dishonest and indirect i´ll be glad to listen.

[Emanick]

I agree with you, Paladin (though I could argue that 1870 qualifies as "old" Europe). However, I don't think Nale is blunt enough to be German. Germans strike me as straightforward, which Nale certainly is not.
Wait, never mind. I'm agreeing with you on that too.:smallbiggrin:

[MrEdwardNigma]

Before someone kick my butt out of existence, this thread is mostly humoristic in intention. And yes, I'm Old European (italian).

ELAN (the european): traditional, romantic, bound to the past and to the trama (to the point of risking the life for a plot device). Sings a lot.

NALE (the american): modern, pragmatic, inventive but over-the-edge. Will do the same thing Elan do, but using new, inventive and unnecessarily complicated ways. Have a military machine that is powerful as hard to control (Thog).

I won't speak of intelligence. They seems equally idiots to me.
(Extra point for "Durkan is Ireland")

Laurentio

Europeans might be like that in Italy, but not over here...

[The Hop Goblin]

And it just so happens that Elan is a 'good guy' and Nale is a 'bad guy'. Huh... not so subtle there, chief.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

See, when I read this I thought the OP was making a reference to the Nabokov novel Lolita, because one way of interpreting it is as Old Europe (HUmbert Humbert) debauching Young America (Dolores, otherwise know as Lolita). Or the reverse, with America, that little tart, seducing Old Europe.

I wondered, What has that got to do with Nale and Elan? My curiosity was piqued.

Needless to say, the actualy content of the post was deeply disappointing.

As an American, I find the equation of my homeland with the villain to be more than a little offensive. As someone who enjoys what Old Europe has brought to the world in terms of art, I'm offended by finding it equated to Elan. If you have to contort things to get them to fit your metaphor, your metaphor doesn't work.

[Paladin29]

Well, well, this topic is getting too serious (and I am guilty of that too), I don´t think Laurentio tried to offend anyone, all of us are here to get some fun, the metaphor was wrong, i agree, but the intent was right (he give more virtues in his description to America than to Europe, at least in my point of view).. i´ll continue with the metaphors... Hinjo is like Spain, idealistic but with a sense of humour and knows how to fun (I love my country.. i know :P)

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

Well, well, this topic is getting too serious (and I am guilty of that too), I don´t think Laurentio tried to offend anyone, all of us are here to get some fun, the metaphor was wrong, i agree, but the intent was right (he give more virtues in his description to America than to Europe, at least in my point of view).. i´ll continue with the metaphors... Hinjo is like Spain, idealistic but with a sense of humour and knows how to fun (I love my country.. i know :P)

I was being a little tongue in cheek myself.

I feel the need to speak up for the country of my birth when I feel that it's being unfairly and innacurately stereotyped, however. I love my country too, and I'm not ashamed of that in the slightest, though there are those at home and abroad that might tsk tsk me for that. Perhaps that's made me a little defensive.

[Kai Maera]

See, this is why threads that should get locked are great! Everyone learns something new about themselves and Xykon becomes mentally associated in readers' minds with Cuba.

[rosebud]

This thread is apropos of nothing, of course. But Elan strikes me as more American than European.

Elan: Always has a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). That's so American/Disney.
Nale: Always thwarted. More Sartre existentialist.

[Paladin29]

Sartre philosophy don´t define Europe, existentialism has its time, but was a very short time in the history of european thinking. I allways see Europe much more optimistic but pragmatic. However I agree you that Elan with his innocence is more american, and Nale with his pragmatism is more European, but for example if i´ve an option I´ll choose Roy for America (strong leader and protector, LG of course) and for Europe.. I don´t know, perhaps a NG character...

[krossbow]

Would that make Belkar Germany?

[Paladin29]

Well, when i think of Belkar the country that comes to my mind is Venezuela XD

[T.Titan]

I'd have to say that being loud and annoying is much more of an american trait. I know that I've done my fair share of running though the streets singing at the top of my lungs.

No dude, that's being drunk, not american...

[zuzak]

I have three words for Germany's straightforwardness: "Otto von Bismark." He was a little sneaky. Also, Germany isn't nearly as agressive as it's claimed to be. WWII was caused more because of the Treaty of Versilles than anything, but I'll stop talking about history now.

More on topic, the "old" seems more important than the "Europe" in "Old Europe." America had Romantisism too.

[Klose_the_Sith]

^I do the same thing and I'm Australian.

You bring much shame to my country

[Laurentio]

After neglecting this post for a long while (I traveled to Finland, where internet was less accessible to me than at home), I almost felt in in. Not many posts, but good ones.
I'm totally in for changing my opinion. I agree that some of the major traits of Elan are the eternal search for the happy end, and the "you can change things" attitude (see the Trial at Azurine City). If most people here see it more like America, I have to agree.
Protective Roy, still America? Ok, but isn't he too much cynical? I don't really know America that much to say.

We will have to divide America for this two characters... east coast and west coast? Too ignorant to know.

Laurentio

Disclaimer: this writer has no major prejudice against countries or people, and is more prone to take a grunge on a country for reason like food. Don't eat in Finland. Really.

[pendell]

Well, thing is both are representative of different facets of America. We're the country that invented both Superman and Goofy, after all.

And there's more to us than that, also. Brittany Spears, George Bush, Chuck Norris, Larry Niven, Pixar Studios are all American.

In fact, if you've watched Pixar's "The Incredibles" , you can see both the traits -- protective of the weak and a zest for fun -- in the same package, even in the same characters.

This is why I resist reducing a nation to a single trait or two. Because there's a lot , -- A LOT -- more to any country than besides the one stereotypes. Germans don't just produce good cars. They're also food and Berlin and heavy metal and dance and a hundred other things, as one example.

But if I had to pick one thing -- one thing -- to represent the genius that is America, it would not be Roy, or Elan.

It would be the OOTS as a whole.

One of the keys of the OOTS is it's very uniquness -- every character is a different race, sex, or species from every other. They are each a different class from each other. They are often radically different alignments. Lawful Good, Neutral Something, Chaotic Good, and Chaotic evil are each found in their ranks.

And yet the all somehow pull together, for the good of each other and the world as a whole. And so, on the whole, they are a force for good. They stumble, and they mess up, and they burn down taverns, but on the whole the world is a better place because they are together.

Which perfectly sums up the original Motto of the US -- E Pluribus Unum, out of Many, One.

I'm sure that someone's going to tease me for spouting politically correct rubbish. But IIRC the very phrase "PC" is, in fact, an American invention :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.