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Frosty
2008-03-26, 11:53 AM
...and I have no idea how to handle that. I mean, I have no idea how to start building one or statting one out. What its capabilities are...how much it would cost...and the game implications of having an air-ship. Can anyone help me out? Now, the characters are high enough level to have Teleport already, so it won't make traveling that much easier, but what do I have to worry about when it comes to airships?

Telonius
2008-03-26, 11:58 AM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37729.html) has some advice on it. Stormwrack and Explorers' Handbook have the stats, so says the thread.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-26, 12:03 PM
ECS uses an elemental air ship 20 miles per hour 92,500 gp market with a crew of 15 and a cargo of 30 tons CL 15 Bind Elemental.

FRCS uses the Halruaan Skyship 400,000 gp market CL 15, Fly and Suspension on a standard sailing ship.

hamishspence
2008-03-26, 12:04 PM
Airship, flying ship, elemental airship, there are a few.

Stormwrack is good for ships in general, accessories, equipment, rules for wind travel, wrecking, etc. Eberron Explorers Guide translates some of this to airships (When bound elemental released by magic, NOT good)

Voyage of the Golden Dolphin (i think that was the name) is an eberron adventure with a sample airship with maps, might be more fun to map out your own.

Arms and Equipment guide, a 3rd ed source that is not hard to update, has airships of the more traditional type: big blimp with propellers.

Shining South has ship that looks like a sailing ship that can fly, main diference being big turtle shells on underside. It is update of Magic of Faerun version.

Ascension
2008-03-26, 12:09 PM
If you don't mind a third-party source, Bastion Press has an entire sourcebook devoted to airships, and they're clearing out their physical stock, so the book itself (not the PDF) is on clearance sale for five bucks here (http://www.dragonwing.net/). I don't own Airships (Yet, that is, I'm planning on ordering it soon.) but I do have their Doom Striders book (which incorporates magically powered mecha into D&D), and it's good stuff, so I expect the quality would be similar.

Five bucks. For a whole sourcebook. Hard to beat that deal.

EDIT: Oh, and they have a free 36 page preview here (http://dragonwing.net/downloads/e-ships.pdf).

LoneGamer
2008-03-26, 12:13 PM
You can also build a flying stronghold with Stronghold Builder's guide and flavor it to be an airship.

SoD
2008-03-26, 12:14 PM
Not sure how much of a help it is, but if you have acess to Dragon 345, that has detail on an airship (and a caravan, and a submarine, and a bit boat).

Frosty
2008-03-26, 12:16 PM
Is it 3.5 or 3.0?

hamishspence
2008-03-26, 12:20 PM
3.5, the last 3.0 Dragon was 309 or 310.

using the stronghold rules (3.0) is an option, but might be best to use them for the inside only, to give you an idea of how much extra you want to spend to make the rooms fit what you want.

Arms and Equipment also has rules for kitting out normal vehicles with flight: magic keel.

Venerable
2008-03-26, 12:22 PM
You may not have to worry about long-term implications of the party owning an airship. In my experience, lighter-than-air craft are distressingly... fragile. Moreso the more common airships are.

Animefunkmaster
2008-03-26, 12:26 PM
An alt to the airship is an effigy of the Elsewhale with the winged template applied. Not so fast but very badass and tons of fun to travel in.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 12:27 PM
Hmm...it seems like too much work. Ok, let's say they're not worred too much about the details of the interior. They basically need it for travel and *maybe* assaulting a city or two. What do I do to come up with reasonable costs and stats just for that? I assume I'll need some AC, DR, possibly enchanted for Energy resistances. I'll definitely ned to brush up on distance rules and how it affects attack bonuses. And I need to come up with weaponry. Spell-turrets or gigantic crossbows...the possibilities...

Fhaolan
2008-03-26, 12:29 PM
Airships, just like large sea-going vessels, spaceships, and even castles and the like, all have the same game issue. It's a huge, costly item that will absorb pretty much the entire party's energy.

Many times the 'big item' will become the central, pivotal point of the campaign. Repairs, fuel, whatever will become constantly at the forefront of the characters' minds. It's very important because it's just that big. Every encounter with NPCs will remark, 'Wow, what a big thing you've got there', or 'I worked on one of those once', or 'You got landed with a lemon there...'

If you're prepared for this, and the players understand what they're getting into, this can be fine. Otherwise, they'll get tired of the 'big item' and regret ever getting into it.

elliott20
2008-03-26, 12:32 PM
:thog: Thog not get reference.

hamishspence
2008-03-26, 12:35 PM
it depends how closely you want to stick to WOTC rules.

Stormwrack has its own system for ship to ship fighting. It makes it more abstract and focusses more on boarding actions. Some players do not like this system.

Arms and Equipment guide has more standard rules. A possible alternative.

Basically, a standard ship with flight is simplest.

Heroes of Battle has rules for magic siege engines and ammo. good way to boost a ships powers. Stormwrack has rules for how many of what size you should fit on one ship. Trebuchets on any ship is a bit unreasonable.

Unapproachable East has alternative magic bombards made by the Thayans, but it is probably simpler just to use normal siege engine with enchanted ammunition.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 12:36 PM
they're ok with this kinda stuff. I told them at the beginning of the campaign they'd eventually have a chance to build their own *town* a la Neverwinter Nights 2. I will give them massive wealth (if they can find it) that can only be used to fund construction of towns, airships, etc.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-26, 12:42 PM
Personally, I'd go like this:

1) Use the item creation guidelines to make an item of once-per-day Overland flight.

2) Find the cost of Permanenceing a level 5 spell in XP, convert to gold/find the cost of an at will item of Overland Flight. if you do this, ignore the next step.

3) Multiply the cost of the once per day item of overland flight by either the cost of the permanence in gold, a fraction of it, or just add the cost of the once per day item and the permanence.

4) Multiply by 2 for every size cathegory above Medium you want the item to be able to lift.

5) Add the cost of a normal ship, of any kind. Congrats, with your new Generator of flight, any ship can be an airship. Be sure to guard it, Alarm and Solid Fog work fine in tandem for guarding.


That should work, methinks.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 01:21 PM
Sounds good. The whole thing would probably cost around 100k before weapons and special defenses...

Lairship
2008-03-26, 01:55 PM
Hullo. Spelljammer was a game about airships. Gubye.
http://www.spelljammer.org/rules/

Triaxx
2008-03-26, 01:58 PM
Here's a description of a ship I used once. I don't have the stats for it though:

The Black Light, was very large indeed. Taking up four acres, since the ship was eight hundred feet long, and two hundred feet wide. Five decks hid within the massive super structure. On the lowest level, sat the main engines, sealed off from the rest of the ship, by massive steel bulk heads, the twin crystals were only used to lift the ship into the air, and propel it through the air, but then only in emergency. Normally in air, two solar powered steam engines would provide power to twin turbines running the length of the ship. On the water, or if need be in air, two sails hung on the masts, which were lowered over at the moment. Neither mast was particularly tall, but they provided enough power to pull the ship through the air, or water. As it was, the now submerged turbines did the work.

The rest of the lower deck, was devoted to the storage of the huge seige weapons, that the ship carried. Including four catapults, wheeled for moving by ground forces, were lashed closest to the engines. Forwards of that, twin wheeled battering rams, with over head steel roofs were lashed in place, to either side of a trio of lighter man carried rams. Front of that sat the dismantled trebuchet, a truly huge seige weapon, usually mounted atop the Black Light itself. Forwards of that, sat the hardware for building mangonels, the bridge in the gap between the catapults, and the trebuchet. Constructed on site, of full trees, mangonels were designed for leveling walls, and nothing more. The hardware included specially made buckets, and firing levers, along with very strong steel cable, to hold the arm back. Forwards of that, sat two ballistas, huge, mounted, and wheeled crossbows, that fired entire small trees, usually through several enemy ranks. Forwards of that, sat the Black Light's main weapon. A much larger ballista, specially modified and designed for the ship itself, able to fire massive arrow bundles, as well as larger trees than the smaller ballista. The former could be launched at an upwards angle for hitting troops aways off, and many of them, and also when the ship was in the air. The latter function only worked in the horizontal position, and when the ship was on the ground. It was used for knocking out enemy seige equipment. Hanging from the ceiling, the Black Light also carried a massive gate buster weapon. A long tube hung from the ceiling, and when lowered into place, a spring coiled inside could be winched back. A small steel rod, settled before the plate on the front of the spring, could be fired at extreme velocity, though only on the ground. The rod was used against gates, impacting with enough force to blow through most gates. The bow of the ship, opened with twin clamshell doors, now resting sealed closed against the water.

The second level was crew quarters, for the five hundred mercenaries, many of which who doubled as crewmen for the massive ship.

The third level held the armory, and storage, packed with spare swords, and arrows, by the hundreds of thousands. Bows, and crossbows hung from racks along the side of the ship, spare strings hanging from long rods, and various components for them stacked in crates, lashed, as with everything else down to the floor. The other side was coated with spare armor, also lashed down, though more to avoid the racket, than worries about them being damaged. The rear carried food stuffs, and supplies for the fletchers, namely wood rods, and chickens. Being the first level out of the water, it's forward doors could swing open, and let out a long boat. It slid out on a long beam, running the length of the ship, and was lowered into the water. Little more than a flat bottomed row boat, it was also kept lashed down.

On the fourth level, it held a marvel of engineering. Four sweep boats. Thirty feet long, each with it's own crystalline drive, they carried two dozen men and a pilot, and could deliver them to other ships, as well as into castles. Agile enough to dodge most cannon balls the boats were also silent, unlike the humming made by the huge crystals of the Black Light, so they were perfect for commando manuevers. Also sitting on the hangar deck of the Black Light, were small fighters, each with it's own crystal, allowing archers to move around freely, and strike at targets on opposing ships, or enemy fortresses. At the back of the level, sat the work shops for the craft smiths, who repaired and maintained the smaller ships.

On the fifth level, separated from the rest of the mostly wooden ship by steel sheets, sat the fire deck. Anything that burned, namely the black smiths forges, the cook stoves, and on rare occasion, the food, was situated here. The forward four hundred feet was taken up by the galley/mess hall. Behind that, the Blacksmiths, and the fletchers sat, making armor, weapons, and arrows. Behind that, the Captain, and First officer's cabin's.

The upper deck of the ship, carried seven covered catapults, one facing forwards, two to each side, and a final pair off the back. Waist high steel plates wrapped the edges of the deck, with several spots where it was higher, for archers to shoot off the deck, though most preferred the enclosed area's in the landing pods. They were enclosed in steel, with arrow slits out the sides. Joke was, it was the safest place to be in a death trap. Since if the ship were to crash, the pods would be crushed from the impact. Thus the reason the engines were encased in steel. Though most of the ship was wood, the outer skin was covered in steel, that offered protection only from flaming arrows. The two masts, when lowered, were rolled off to the sides, and covered in steel, as with the rest to protect them from fire arrows. The main deck, was wet down before battle, because steel was too slick for decking. Grapple anchor points for ship to ship assaults decorated the railing, and safety lines for the archers, hung behind the plates.

The bridge was only raised one step above the rest of the ship, but the captains box was surrounded by more steel, and raised three feet up. It held a duplicate set of controls, that moved in exact sync with those on the deck below it. From those two stations, the entire ship responded. The only parts of the deck, that weren't smooth, were the anchors for the Trebuchet.

It's probably a little larger than you were looking for though.

The average ship of the type I just described is enough to make a druid cry though, since it virtually depopulates an entire forest to acquire the wood to build the hull. The crystals themselves are natural to an out of dimension location. So it could make an interesting side mission to keep them from getting bored.

A search of the Homebrew forum reveals:

Spidaren Airship (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49067&highlight=Airship)

All about airships. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49105&highlight=Airship)

And a topic from the Tears of Blood sub-forum:

Gnome Airships (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12142&highlight=Airship)

Also, look up the Xen'Drik flying boat on Wizards.

---

That out of the way, I have to ask, do you tend to play Monty-haul style? I tend to dump mountains of useless trash on the players, thousands of rusty Goblin swords, bow heaps by the hundreds, pack trains worth of arrows, not to mention every monster with the swallow ability tends to yield mountains of garbage. Skeletons, armor, weapons, items. And they have to pick up and carry it back to 'civilization' to get rid of it, and get gold. Or is everything in a conveinent carry size piece?

Deep dungeoneering? Or are they likely to try and rope onto the statue outside the temple gates, and fly away with it? (Woo, Van Damme reference) Deep Dungeons mean they might have to make multiple trips to pack everything out, even if you only give small amounts of loot.

Are they all mounted? If so, you probably need room for, and a method to carry those mounts. (Of course a Halfling Paladin's War Riding Dog is much less hassle than a Goliath's elephant.) Be sure to build it big enough that the party can be comfortable moving around on it.

---

Fighting other airships:

Ship to ship is hard already. Airship to airship is trickier. If you arm your ship with wizards you have some advantages in different propulsion methods. Flying into an acid cloud with cloth sails is a Bad Idea. Solid Fog makes you a sitting duck. And any type is vulnerable to the ever handy Call Lightning.

Cannon's are good ship to ship weapons, they don't even have to be spell turrets. Complete Arcane introduced spell tiles which cast as soon as they break, so you could load those with fireballs and send mass numbers through the air at opposing ships.

Fighting from airships:

Against ground target's is not as hard as it seems. As you mentioned range is weird when it comes to adding height to the mix. But even a catapult can be calculated easier if it's mounted on the airship and fired from ground level. When the enemy comes out to smash the catapult's you just lift into the air, and move to a new spot. I think the range increment increases with height, though I don't know where the table is found. Archers would also get a boost, so if you put a dozen or so of them on the ship you've got the advantage of high ground. Ballistae are harder to work with though, since unless you aim down, they end up with a massive range, since the degrade of the arc is a long time coming, but you'd have to fire months before you got there, to actually hit the town.

sikyon
2008-03-26, 02:18 PM
I suggest custom rocketship! (not my idea)

Regular boat.

Permanent wall of fire on a cylinder of iron (wall of iron in a cylinder shape with another wall of iron as backing). Or buy the thing.

3 create water automatic reset traps. 1 of them is used to cool the iron and keep it from melting, the other two send water into the cylander. The water will evaporate and expand, being forced out.

Congratulations. You now have a steam rocket engine.

2000XP for the Wall of fire, 200 GP for the walls of Iron (that's 4 walls of iron) and as create water is level 0, I do believe that's 0GP/XP cost for the traps.

Strap it onto the ship and you're good to go!

Frosty
2008-03-26, 02:33 PM
Well, everyone in the group has a bag of holding, so up until now, loot has not been a problem.

Person_Man
2008-03-26, 02:41 PM
I miss Spelljammer and Dark Sun. I hope they get supported in 4th ed. I wonder, who owns the rights?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2008-03-26, 03:39 PM
I havn't read through the whole thread and don't know if it's been mentioned, but(assuming they lack the appropriate Dragonmark) ECS lists an airship as 100,000 gp. That's 90,000 for the ship itself and 10,000 for the magical wheel that lets anyone pilot it.

Frosty
2008-03-26, 04:05 PM
I actually like the idea of trapping an air-elemental to power a ship. It'll be a great sidequest to go trap one.

ColdBrew
2008-03-26, 04:45 PM
I highly recommend looking at the Stronghold Builder's Guide when constructing a large base. Great rules for material cost, specialized rooms, etc. Also the Landlord feat, which is almost invaluable when trying to build something.

Chronicled
2008-03-26, 10:46 PM
ECS uses an elemental air ship 20 miles per hour 92,500 gp market with a crew of 15 and a cargo of 30 tons CL 15 Bind Elemental.

It's actually 92,000 gp, and is found in the Explorer's Handbook.

Collin152
2008-03-26, 10:51 PM
I actually like the idea of trapping an air-elemental to power a ship. It'll be a great sidequest to go trap one.

Gotta catch em all.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-26, 10:59 PM
It's actually 92,000 gp, and is found in the Explorer's Handbook.

Thanks for the catch it's also 92,000 gp in ECS (Must have been thinking about that super rad paint job the air ship's belonging to adventurers get).

Ascension
2008-03-26, 11:07 PM
Thanks for the catch it's also 92,000 gp in ECS (Must have been thinking about that super rad paint job the air ship's belonging to adventurers get).

If you paint it red it goes three times as fast!

Hal
2008-03-27, 12:25 AM
I'm of no use on mechanics or stats, but I can help you brainstorm about in-game consequences.

I hope you have a very pressing plot laid out for your players that they are desperate to follow, because otherwise the sudden ability to explore with almost no boundaries can become a headache very quickly. Unless you're okay with railroading, in which case you don't have a problem.

You'll need to decide how common airships are in this world. Fairly common? They're probably going to have conflicts with other people who own them. Rare? Most towns probably won't have ports for them and will be freaked out about the highly mobile warship that comes sailing into the area.

Do any of your players' characters have any skill in piloting an airship? If not, they'll have to hire a crew. Consider statting out various crew members and giving the players a choice of who to hire (Captain, pilot, etc.). There are certainly useful feats for crew members in Stormwrack, and each person could have an associated sub-plot if the players hire him. For example, one might attract pirates, while another attempts a mutiny, while a third tends to pilfer, etc.

Finally, I've always tried to GM with the philosophy, "Let your players do cool stuff." If you've played FFX, let them assault those cities similar to how the characters in FFX did. Wicked cool.

Kalirren
2008-03-27, 01:01 AM
I ran a very fun and meaningful Eberron campaign which started out with a bunch of 6th-level characters stealing the world's first airship, a relic of an NPC-turned-deity from the previous campaign, from a museum in Sharn. (Actually, they boarded it and used it to escape when the museum was bombed, subsequently claiming salvage rights. The mayor of Sharn teleported onto the ship with heavy guards, just to prove he could arrest them at whim, only to personally shout down the high priest of said deity and let the party -have- the damned thing in return for indefinite, unofficial service to the Crown.) Of course, they couldn't -sell- the thing because it was an unmistakable divine relic.

Regarding campaign management issues resulting from the airship and its associated transport potential, I had originally conceived of and designed the campaign as a huge exercise in geopolitics, anthropology, and history with power and adventure woven in at every level, so it worked. The airship gave me an easy way to go from continent to continent and maintain continuity.

But you really have to be prepared for them going to random-arse corners of the world. I never had to deal with that in a bad way, since the major direction-setter of the party was very positively goal-oriented, and tended to stick around to build standing and connections wherever he went, even when I kicked him out of Xen'drik and set him scurrying to the North Pole. But if you are DM'ing what I envision as your average group of psychopath PCs, you might have a lot more trouble up your sleeve. Sooner or later someone's going to get pissed enough at them to send a group up to capture the ship and throw the party into the slammer, and you have to be prepared to throw this at them and not expect the PC's to win.

All in all, it's a worthwhile experience for the group, especially if they're ready for it. I would advise that you spend a little time trying to make up a globe for your world. It can easily become relevant.

DarknessLord
2008-03-27, 01:06 AM
If you paint it red it goes three times as fast!

I believe it only accelerates 3 times faster, and either way, it has to be done by a blond physic pretty-boy.

Ascension
2008-03-27, 01:20 AM
I believe it only accelerates 3 times faster, and either way, it has to be done by a blond physic pretty-boy.

Ehh, they keep retconning what exactly made Char special. At one point it was said that the only reason he accelerated more quickly than a normal Zaku was by kicking off of space debris, or something like that... Regardless of the reasons why, red to me will always mean 3x!

If any of your characters wears a mask, remember that it adds additional situational modifiers.

Frosty
2008-03-27, 02:13 AM
Red means our Trukks go Fasta!