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Tyger
2008-03-27, 07:24 AM
Other than the cost associated with creating them, why do I so often see a bit of hate for the noble scroll?

My wizard in our current campaign has a stock of about 40+ scrolls (mostly utility, but often some combat scrolls as well) in his Handy Haversack. So that means that any scroll he wants, he can get out as a Move Action, then use a Standard Action to cast the scroll. Combine all that with Greater Invisibility, and he's really in no danger and vastly increases his versatility and power. Currently level 11 (7 Wizard / 4 Mage of the Arcane Order) and with the stuff that our DM is known to throw at us, needs the few extras every day.

So why don't more people use them?

Maxymiuk
2008-03-27, 07:28 AM
WBL issues, mostly. If you go blowing all your money on bits of parchment, you won't have enough for your High-Level Wizard Bling (tm).

SamTheCleric
2008-03-27, 07:29 AM
Scrolls are fantastic. And you're exactly right... you should have one for every "utility" spell that doesnt really warrant a slot of memorization... Like Comprehend Languages. :)

I just put the final touches on my 3rd level bard for a new campaign and a good 1/4 of his wealth was spent on scrolls.

Khanderas
2008-03-27, 07:38 AM
My guess would be the Xp cost.
Players can be veeery protective of their precious Xp.

Gold you can get back, you just make two scrolls and sell the other and moneywise, it was free.
Xp, you have to go out and hunt for. And then your teammates level faster then you (oh the horror). Admittivly you get more Xp then them when you are lower level but still, you dont quite catch up.

And bookkeeping I guess.

Tyger
2008-03-27, 07:48 AM
Well, our DM doesn't do the level specific XP thing, so I am already taking it a little slower than the rest of the party, especially as we can not, under any circumstances, buy magic items. Everything we have is either found (not many of those) or crafted by... you guessed it... me. To date, about 8000 XP spent on crafting.

That said, the party isn't over optimized (hell, we have a Monk 6 / Psychic Warrior 6 in the party, and an oversized TWFing Ranger!) so I have to reign the wizard stuff in from time to time so as to not steal the limelight, so its not a huge issue to be lower level than them.

Good to hear that I am not the only one who thinks scrolls are helpful though.

Triaxx
2008-03-27, 07:57 AM
Wizards usually don't, because they are so versatile. A Wizard can prepare a spell for any occasion.

My Sorceror's on the other hand, usually carry a Handy Haversack/Bag of Holding full of nothing but scrolls. Of course because it's full, it requires a Full action to dig out the scroll he wants, and a standard action to use it. (House Rule.) But it means that if he suddenly needs... Cloudkill, which isn't on his known list, he has it.

hewhosaysfish
2008-03-27, 08:00 AM
My warlock character keeps every scroll the party finds. When I have gold burning a hole in my pocket, I buy a couple to cover any obvious gaps in my collection.

And then I never use any of them. I might need them later!
I'm like that.

(Well, I'll often use a Teleport, or sometimes a Plane Shift but then they're bought for a specific need rather than just-in-case.)

If I'd taken Scribe Scroll as my 12 level feat, then I could potentially create scrolls of any an every spell I might need (for knockdown prices) but I felt that was silly.
And took Craft Wondrous Item instead.

Saph
2008-03-27, 08:02 AM
I never really knew why, either. My wizards always carry a stock of 30ish scrolls in their Handy Haversacks, as well.

First-level scrolls are only 25 gp. It's very affordable to have copies of all those situational 1st-level scrolls that you're unlikely to have prepared that morning but now suddenly need (comprehend languages, endure elements, silent image, expeditious retreat, etc).

It's probably just bookkeeping. Most people can't be bothered to trawl through the spell lists finding every useful 1st-level spell and writing it down.

- Saph

Tyger
2008-03-27, 08:06 AM
Hmmm... maybe that's why I like them then... I like book keeping. :smallsmile:

Telonius
2008-03-27, 08:09 AM
Costs in Gold, XP, and most of all time. Not all campaigns are structured so that you can have a day of downtime to scribe a scroll.

Tyger
2008-03-27, 08:30 AM
Costs in Gold, XP, and most of all time. Not all campaigns are structured so that you can have a day of downtime to scribe a scroll.


Ah yes, that's very true. And one of the first magic items I made was my Quill of Scribing from Complete Arcane. You still pay the XP and GP cost, but the quill does the actual work. So set it before you go to bed, wake up to a new scroll. Sweetness and light!

Person_Man
2008-03-27, 08:32 AM
If its a long term campaign, you don't want to blow money on one use items.

If its a short term campaign, a full caster is already one of the most powerful members of the party. Having a library of scrolls for every possible event sometimes feels like cheating. And in many cases, it just leads your DM to throw more powerful encounters at you.

Having said that, whenever I play a Skill Monkey, I always end up with at least 40ish scrolls and wands by mid levels.

Burley
2008-03-27, 10:20 AM
It's my opinion that there are two items often overlooked by wizards, but save time and money like you wouldn't believe.
The (afore mentioned) Quill of Scribing and the (often misleading) Blessed Book. The Blessed Book (I think) is overlooked so often because it's name implies divinity, not arcana. But, for those that aren't familiar, the Blessed Book is a 1,000 page spell book (1000 pages, people) that negates the gold cost of scribing a spell into your book. Add that with the quill of scribing, and all you have to do is tell the quill "Scribe Ice Javelin" and, for NO cost or effort, it goes to work. You can take a nap, or make soup, or craft some other item (or scroll :smallwink:) during the downtime that you wouldn't have time to do otherwise.

TempusCCK
2008-03-27, 10:37 AM
Actually, in my new campaign we're doing an awesome scroll scribing variant that I think would make scrolls very appealing to most people.

To scribe a scroll you need parchment, a decent quill, and a special ink that you prepare with special ingredients of the spell, and as long as you made enough of the ink, you can scribe many scrolls of the spells. Also, ink recipes can be traded or sold. Now you make an additional very checks, which can be modified by the quality of quill and parchment you have, and that's it.

valadil
2008-03-27, 10:45 AM
I think people shy away from scrolls for two reasons. Laziness and one-time-use-iness. Wizards have enough to keep track of without throwing scrolls in there. Have you ever prepped spells for a level 24 wizard with every core spell? I have. It hurts. It takes longer than the actual gaming session. If I ever play that character again I'm outsourcing. Each party member gets a different spell level to mem for me.

Other than that, people kind of see one time use items as a last ditch effort. You can use that greatsword every single round until the end of the game. That scroll only gets used once and then it's gone, so you better make sure it's worth it. As a caster I'd rather burn through my renewable powers than my finite ones.

To convince myself that expensive scrolls are worthwhile I usually have to look at the game as something that is going to end. Yeah, I can only use that mass fly scroll once, but how often do I really need it? Maybe twice out of those 10 sessions? If it was something that would be useful every day I'd have learned the spell instead. Also, how much loot do casters actually need? You want to invest a lot in an item for your casting stat. Dex and con are nice, but they don't need to be +6 items. Resistance items are nice. Rings of protection and amulets of natural armor can be hand me downs from the fighters. Take your fair share of loot, but trade it in for some consumables. It's not like your money is going anywhere else.

Chronos
2008-03-27, 10:49 AM
It's very affordable to have copies of all those situational 1st-level scrolls that you're unlikely to have prepared that morning but now suddenly need (comprehend languages, endure elements, silent image, expeditious retreat, etc). Since when is Silent Image a situational spell? I always prepare that one. It's just too versatile.

hewhosaysfish, I understand entirely about the hoarder mentality... I'm like that, too. Any game I play (RPG or otherwise), I always end up with a fat pile of consumables that I never consumed. At least you're playing a warlock, though, so you don't need to worry about "wasting" your spell allotment.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-27, 10:54 AM
For low level utility spells, eternal wants ate their niche. For higher level spells, they cost a lot.

Saph
2008-03-27, 11:01 AM
Since when is Silent Image a situational spell? I always prepare that one. It's just too versatile.

A lot of DMs define 'interacting with an illusion' as 'coming anywhere near it', and give the NPCs will saves round after round until they pass. Our usual DM is one of them, which limits the use of illusions.

Re: eternal wands, I always thought they were a waste of money, personally.

- Saph

Frosty
2008-03-27, 11:09 AM
Some eternal wands for good. Like one of True Strike. Especially if you have the Murky-Eyed Flaw.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 11:09 AM
Since when is Silent Image a situational spell? I always prepare that one. It's just too versatile.

The thing about Silent Image is that at CL 1 it's almost as good as at CL 20.

The size you need, CL is usually enough, duration concentration so that doesn't matter, if someone is dispelling your illusion you are either doing it wrong or winning an action in combat, and the scroll costs 25gp.

A pearl of power costs 1000gp, that's 40 scrolls. If you cast it twice a day, then for 40 days the scrolls cost just as much, but they also give you one more 1st level spell then you otherwise would have.

Another favorite scroll is at low levels, color spray. 25gp for a scroll that is as good an attack as you have. Color Spray, as long as you make the scroll yourself, thus using your Int mod, has no real disadvantage relative to casting it.

Chronos
2008-03-27, 11:19 AM
A lot of DMs define 'interacting with an illusion' as 'coming anywhere near it', and give the NPCs will saves round after round until they pass.Ooh, that's brutal... I'm glad I haven't had to play under that ruling. Yeah, in that case, illusions are pretty situational.


The thing about Silent Image is that at CL 1 it's almost as good as at CL 20.Yeah, but when you hit CL 20, what else are you going to be using level 1 slots for? Any other first-level spell is either going to have a save DC too low to bother with (considering that you've got a ton of higher-level spells that target the same save), won't have enough of an effect (see: Magic Missile), or you'll want to metamagic into a higher slot (Quickened True Strike). Maybe an Enlarge Person for your Big Dumb Fighter (or a Reduce Person for your skillmonkey), but you've probably Permanencied that by now, and even if you haven't, you probably want it Extended in a level 2 slot.

Saph
2008-03-27, 11:23 AM
Another favorite scroll is at low levels, color spray. 25gp for a scroll that is as good an attack as you have. Color Spray, as long as you make the scroll yourself, thus using your Int mod, has no real disadvantage relative to casting it.

Spells from scrolls or wands don't benefit from feats or a high ability score. Their saving throw is always the minimum it can be (so, 11 for a level 1 spell).

So when picking scrolls, it's better to go for beneficial spells or ones that don't allow a save.

- Saph

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 11:42 AM
Yeah, but when you hit CL 20, what else are you going to be using level 1 slots for?

Grease, Blockade, Expeditious Retreat, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter?

Also, Hoard Gullet is nice.

TempusCCK
2008-03-27, 12:16 PM
Web. I always have Web prepared.

Saph
2008-03-27, 12:25 PM
Actually, Web is one of the spells that's very effective in a wand or scroll, as it's almost as effective on a passed save as a failed one.

- Saph

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 12:40 PM
Actually, Web is one of the spells that's very effective in a wand or scroll, as it's almost as effective on a passed save as a failed one.

- Saph

And it's level 2, which makes me wonder how that statement was supposed to fit into the conversation.

Khanderas
2008-03-27, 12:48 PM
And it's level 2, which makes me wonder how that statement was supposed to fit into the conversation.
You can make wands with level 2 spells. How does it not fit into the conversation ?

Chronos
2008-03-27, 01:43 PM
Grease, Blockade, Expeditious Retreat, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter?OK, I'm not up too much on non-core spells... I'll grant you Benign Transposition and Nerveskitter (I thought those were 2nd level), and I'm not too familiar with Blockade. But a lot of high-level things will completely ignore Grease (anything flying, for starters), and a high-level wizard is likely to have an item that gives an enhancement bonus to speed.

Burley
2008-03-27, 02:27 PM
Benign Transposition is a 1st level spell. Baleful Transposition is the 2nd level. Both are superfun spells. Baleful Transposition actually turned an encounter that should have been EXTREMELY difficult for us into something that was done in two rounds. Our DM shouldn't have let us scout the area.
Benign is fun if you send a familiar into the midst of the enemy camp, and then swap it with your party's Barbarian, with a readied action to KILL!
"Oh, look at the monkey! Monkey, Monkey Monkey!"
~Fizz...Pop~
"Run for you lives!"
:smallamused:

Also, Hoard Gullet, over and over. It's such a wonderful spell, and is one of the few spells I will actually turn into a scroll. At higher levels, you have bags of holding, or enough time to cast it in the morning and be okay. At lower levels, when you don't have the Bag of Holding/Handy Haversack, the Hoard Gullet is really useful for loots, and hiding the McGuffin from baddies. I love it when my level 2 (9 strength) gnome gets to say: "I can carry two hundred poundsh." (He talks like Sean Connery. :smallbiggrin:)

Da King
2008-03-27, 02:43 PM
Web. I always have Web prepared.

Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can....

I have never crafted a scroll while playing a caster, I just hate losing the xp and I usually don't have enough time to craft any magic items. One of the nice things I've heard about 4th ed is that WotC is doing away with expending xp on crafting.

Citizen Joe
2008-03-27, 03:07 PM
Always use the scroll version of spiderclimb. In potion form or regular casting, the recipient has to eat a live spider (well, a spider in the potion anyway). In the scroll form it is just mixed into the ink.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 03:19 PM
You can make wands with level 2 spells. How does it not fit into the conversation ?

Right but the earlier question was "What else are you going to prepare in your level 1 slots?"

If you were saying that you have scrolls or wands of Web, then you should have said that, it's a good contribution, because Web is an awesome spell, even on a failed save. But we aren't talking about what spells to prepare in your slots except level 1 ones. That's why I was confused by what you meant.


OK, I'm not up too much on non-core spells... I'll grant you Benign Transposition and Nerveskitter (I thought those were 2nd level), and I'm not too familiar with Blockade. But a lot of high-level things will completely ignore Grease (anything flying, for starters), and a high-level wizard is likely to have an item that gives an enhancement bonus to speed.

Nerveskitter and Benign Transposition are level 1. Exp Retreat has a better speed increase then any item, and Bockade is an immediate action, create a block of wood, giving you total cover.

Basically, a Tower shield that you can summon as an immediate action instead of a Standard, that doesn't encumber you, and that you can mess up Spellcaster Bob with by dropping it after he's finished his movement, providing full cover so that disintegrate/stun ray/whatever he was going to cast isn't going to do anything.

Chronos
2008-03-27, 03:32 PM
OK, I can see the utility of that, and if I had access to those spells, I would probably prepare them. I'd still prepare at least one Silent Image, but that's largely a matter of taste.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-27, 03:59 PM
Well, our DM doesn't do the level specific XP thing, so I am already taking it a little slower than the rest of the party, especially as we can not, under any circumstances, buy magic items. Everything we have is either found (not many of those) or crafted by... you guessed it... me. To date, about 8000 XP spent on crafting.
Two questions:

1.) If crafting is possible, why would nobody take advantage of this to make money from his skill, i.e. why is nobody selling magic items?

2.) Assuming there's a good answer for 1 (which I doubt), why is he punishing you further by forcing you to lag in levels by not awarding XP by level?

Tyger
2008-03-27, 06:16 PM
Two questions:

1.) If crafting is possible, why would nobody take advantage of this to make money from his skill, i.e. why is nobody selling magic items?

2.) Assuming there's a good answer for 1 (which I doubt), why is he punishing you further by forcing you to lag in levels by not awarding XP by level?

Both excellent questions. The answer I fear, is "because".

No, there has never been a satisfactory answer to why it is impossible to buy magic items. There are mages aplenty, including a nation spanning mage guild that advises the nobility, as well as several well established churches. Note that I also can not sell my magic items crafted for more than half price.

And as for the XP... I can't even begin to guess. And yes, both inconsistencies have been repeatedly brought to his attention, to no avail.

Despite all that, he is, in the most part, an excellent DM with great stories. So its easy to forgive a few inconsistencies.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-03-27, 06:38 PM
I don't use scrolls because I just don't like dealing with one-shot items. Even if I'm in a game where the DM allows magic shopping up the wazoo, I'd rather spend my cash on a permanent item (prefereably one that grants a bonus so I don't even have to think about it). I know that it would make my character more versatile to cart around a Bag of Scrolls (type IV), but honestly my spells known, spell book or spell list is plenty for me to keep track of without extra one-shots. Besides it makes an adventure more challenging if the party spell casters aren't prepared for every contingency under the sun.

TS

Collin152
2008-03-27, 06:38 PM
with a readied action to KILL!


You win. This is the single most awesomest line I've read. Burley Warlock, I hereby award you 12 awesome points and a coke.

AslanCross
2008-03-27, 07:28 PM
The wizard in the group I run didn't use scrolls.

Until I made him realize that scribing his own is a lot cheaper than buying them, and that the XP lost is negligible when compared to the utility of effectively having extra spell slots.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-27, 07:29 PM
I hate using consumables. In video games I'm more likely to reload a save than I am to continue after drinking a potion. I don't buy/craft scrolls because I have an inherent drive to not use them.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-27, 07:32 PM
Both excellent questions. The answer I fear, is "because".

No, there has never been a satisfactory answer to why it is impossible to buy magic items. There are mages aplenty, including a nation spanning mage guild that advises the nobility, as well as several well established churches. Note that I also can not sell my magic items crafted for more than half price.
This requires an emoticon that this board does not have to properly express my incredulity.

Seriously. If no one else is selling, then should your character decide to sell, he has a monopoly on the market. If no one but the wizards who make magic items can have them due to nobody selling, then when someone does sell it's an incredibly valuable commodity; the price should be through the roof, not cut in half. :smallconfused:

Collin152
2008-03-27, 07:38 PM
This requires an emoticon that this board does not have to properly express my incredulity.

Seriously. If no one else is selling, then should your character decide to sell, he has a monopoly on the market. If no one but the wizards who make magic items can have them due to nobody selling, then when someone does sell it's an incredibly valuable commodity; the price should be through the roof, not cut in half. :smallconfused:

Assuming theres sufficient demand.
Cause, you know, it seems there are no other wizards, with the lack of scroll market and all that.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 07:43 PM
Assuming theres sufficient demand.
Cause, you know, it seems there are no other wizards, with the lack of scroll market and all that.

But he has Craft Wondrous Item, and apparently there is no where in all the universe to buy Wondrous items. So that means that he can set any price he desires, and someone should jump all over this oppurtunity to get a helm of teleportation for 400000gp, since it is apparently the only one in existence.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-27, 07:52 PM
Assuming theres sufficient demand.
Cause, you know, it seems there are no other wizards, with the lack of scroll market and all that.
Let's try this again, this time with emphasis.
Both excellent questions. The answer I fear, is "because".

No, there has never been a satisfactory answer to why it is impossible to buy magic items. There are mages aplenty, including a nation spanning mage guild that advises the nobility, as well as several well established churches. Note that I also can not sell my magic items crafted for more than half price

Rutee
2008-03-27, 07:54 PM
I hate using consumables. In video games I'm more likely to reload a save than I am to continue after drinking a potion. I don't buy/craft scrolls because I have an inherent drive to not use them.

I have this problem too. I've gotten better at it, but it's still around sometimes.

Edit: If most of those Mages are actually Wizards, you probably won't find THAT much demand even /if/ you're the only seller..

Collin152
2008-03-27, 07:55 PM
Let's try this again, this time with emphasis.

And what, you can't buy scrolls from them?
No?
So what, they're all buying their scrolls from you and you alone?

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-27, 08:10 PM
Edit: If most of those Mages are actually Wizards, you probably won't find THAT much demand even /if/ you're the only seller..

And what, you can't buy scrolls from them?
No?
So what, they're all buying their scrolls from you and you alone?
Did you miss the part where he's crafting magic items for the party? It seems to me that if the party wants them, so might other people. This is what we call a market.

Collin152
2008-03-27, 08:27 PM
Did you miss the part where he's crafting magic items for the party? It seems to me that if the party wants them, so might other people. This is what we call a market.

If there are other people what will buy scrolls, its because they can use them.
If they can use scrolls, it is most likely that they are a spellcaster.
If they are a spellcaster, they may make scrolls themselves.
If they are a wizard, they certainly can.
Yet, the only one selling scrolls is the PC?

Rutee
2008-03-27, 08:31 PM
Did you miss the part where he's crafting magic items for the party? It seems to me that if the party wants them, so might other people. This is what we call a market.

Here's the deal; if all Arcane Casters (Or most!) Are Wizards, then there isn't much of a demand for Arcane Scrolls, which means there'll be a low supply of Arcane Scrolls.

drengnikrafe
2008-03-27, 11:58 PM
I didn't bother to read this whole thing (so sue me if I repeat something or attack with a previously identified point) I just want to throw in my two cents.

I, as a usual wizard, don't buy or use scrolls because...
A) They cost money (I'm sitting on a big pile of it, but the last time I made scrolls... they're still sitting in my inventory).
B) I usually prepare all the spells I'll need in a day.
C) I have this nasty thing where... I won't use items. Ever. I play through almost every RPG without using a single one of the most valuable item within it, if it is at all rare.

But, y'know, that's just me.

Tyger
2008-03-27, 11:59 PM
Nope, nothing like that Rutee. My DM is just a bit naff on this topic. Yes, there are wizards, sorcerers and other casters a plenty. Hell, I am a member of the nation spanning wizards guild (game is actually set in G.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series, with the Maesters order being mages). Yes, I can craft wondrous items, magical arms and armor, and scribe scrolls till the cows come home. And no, no one sells magic items.

Despite all this, I can not sell my magic items crafted for more than the 1/2 you can normally sell loot for. No justification from the DM, just "that's the way it is".

I have learned to live with it. It makes no sense, impairs us greatly, and shows a blatant disregard for little things like... reality. :) I know, that's a dirty word in D&D.

Tyger
2008-03-28, 06:51 AM
Here's the deal; if all Arcane Casters (Or most!) Are Wizards, then there isn't much of a demand for Arcane Scrolls, which means there'll be a low supply of Arcane Scrolls.

And actually, that is inaccurate in my experience as well. Scrolls are one of the easiest and most efficient means for prepared arcane spellcasters (like wizards) to learn new spells. More wizards would probably mean more demand for scrolls, not less.

Alas, in this Twilight Zone that I play in, they neither buy nor sell anything of a magical nature.

The DM has a really odd view of economy or something. I understand that its not the point of the game, and that he is probably concerned about balance, but the equipment issue has been my main gripe with his game. ITs wartime, so masterwork and regular equipment cost us double. But when we go to sell equipment, we get half the usual price. Hell, when I Fabricate and then enchant a suit of full plate, you'd think that would be REALLY in demand... but no.

Its a good thing that the majority of his DMing style is great, or this would push me over the edge. But he's a great story teller, and does fantastic plots, so the game is, overall, a tonne of fun. Just a few little things like this that irk me. But c'est la vie, non?

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-28, 10:11 AM
Here's the deal; if all Arcane Casters (Or most!) Are Wizards, then there isn't much of a demand for Arcane Scrolls, which means there'll be a low supply of Arcane Scrolls.
Yes, I grasp that. What does that have to do with wondrous items and magic weapons?

Chronos
2008-03-28, 10:42 AM
Scrolls are one of the easiest and most efficient means for prepared arcane spellcasters (like wizards) to learn new spells.Beg pardon? Of the three methods available for wizards to learn new spells, scrolls are the least efficient. The ones you get for free for levelling up don't cost you anything, and spellbook pages cost less than scrolls.

Tyger
2008-03-28, 11:59 AM
Beg pardon? Of the three methods available for wizards to learn new spells, scrolls are the least efficient. The ones you get for free for levelling up don't cost you anything, and spellbook pages cost less than scrolls.

Sorry, should have qualified that. Other than the two (or four if you took that snazzy feat) freebies you get, scrolls are the easiest way to learn new spells. If you can just buy the scroll, that is a tonne easier than finding another mage, one who has the spell you are looking for, negotiating with that mage to give you access to their spellbook, etc.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-28, 12:13 PM
Sorry, should have qualified that. Other than the two (or four if you took that snazzy feat) freebies you get, scrolls are the easiest way to learn new spells. If you can just buy the scroll, that is a tonne easier than finding another mage, one who has the spell you are looking for, negotiating with that mage to give you access to their spellbook, etc.

So you give up some RPing, and you gain? Less gold? What exactly is the advantage here compared to dealing with the local Wizard's Guild that you may or may not be a part of.

Also, where are you buying these scrolls? The most logical person to buy them from is Wizards who can craft them, which are the same people with spellbooks you can copy from.

And since one of those methods involves him giving up gold and XP for your gold, and the other one involves losing nothing at all and getting your gold, which is a better deal on his part?

axraelshelm
2008-03-28, 03:01 PM
if i pick them up in a dungeon i'll keep them, and exchanging obsolete magical items for scrolls could be great but yeah i hate giving up xps for paper rather than a uber staff of god crushing