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Kabump
2008-03-27, 02:50 PM
Im pretty new to the whole D&D scene, about ready to start up a new campaign after disastrous results on our previous one :) (3 words: bad party balance) This is only my 2nd campaign, so Im not well versed by any means about the game. Im just looking for a little advice about my next character. After the epic failure of our previous group, we are trying for more balance for our next one. In the group we have a sorcerer/thief, a duskblade, and a cleric. I told the group Id play whatever role we needed, and it looks like we need a meat shield.

I had orginally planned to roll a swordsage, as I have been dying to try out the ToB, but since it seems like we need a frontline guy, I have been thinking about either a Crusader or a Warblade. My situation is this: the idea I had in mind is a frontline kinda of guy, and I wanted to be an AoO machine. My vision is to move into the baddies, and keep them locked up so the support can do their thing. grabbing AoOs when I could. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Im not married to the ToB, just had wanted to try it out. Books available are core, PHB2, any complete, and ToB, although if there is something really good in abother book the DM is always willing to look at it. We start at 2nd lvl, ability scores are 4d6 reroll 1s. Multiclass is fine, but the DM doesnt allow spontaneous multiclassing, I have to be able to justify it in the game so Im looking to limit it to 2 or 3 classes if possible. Any advice would be much appreciated!

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-27, 03:13 PM
Well, you may want to look at this, specifically these posts. Note that this is a pretty strong combo.

Zocelot
2008-03-27, 03:15 PM
If you're only second level just play an orc barbarian.

You won't need multiple attacks of opportunity, because as soon as you get one, you can cleave through everyone around you.

Zocelot
2008-03-27, 03:15 PM
If you're only second level just play an orc barbarian.

You won't need multiple attacks of opportunity, because as soon as you get one, you can cleave through everyone around you.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-27, 03:20 PM
BWL has the right idea in those threads.

Crusader is your best choice for AoOs thanks to the Thicket of Blades stance. You don't have that at 2nd level, but being a Crusader still has many advantages (like toughness and in-combat healing). Basically, you'll want Combat Reflexes, plus either Expertise + Improved Trip or the Stand Still feat to keep enemies locked down.

Your two stances should be Martial Spirit (for healing), and Iron Guard's Glare (for control: a big reach plus penalties to people you threaten when they don't attack you is a good way to keep allies safer).


BTW, keep in mind that the Swordsage can do just fine as a front-line tank. AoOs aren't his thing, but he can have a high AC and damage.

Kabump
2008-03-27, 03:36 PM
Well, you may want to look at this, specifically these posts. Note that this is a pretty strong combo.

Now, that does look like a fun build! :smallbiggrin:



BTW, keep in mind that the Swordsage can do just fine as a front-line tank. AoOs aren't his thing, but he can have a high AC and damage.

The AoO was how I wanted to play my tank, not my swordsage so the loss there isnt a big deal. The swordsage I rolled I had envisioned as a skirmisher type, as I had a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers that (as I understand it without having played one yet) lend themselves to moving in, attacking, and moving away again. Basically he would have complemented the rogue very well. The wisdom to AC is very nice, but the d8 hit dice scares me.

I guess the question it comes down to for me is, with the makeup of our group as is (sorcerer/rogue, duskblade, cleric) would it benefit the GROUP more with a tank type or the Swordsage? Not being a veteran of the game made me think in the direction of the tank.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-27, 04:02 PM
The AoO was how I wanted to play my tank, not my swordsage so the loss there isnt a big deal. The swordsage I rolled I had envisioned as a skirmisher type, as I had a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers that (as I understand it without having played one yet) lend themselves to moving in, attacking, and moving away again. Basically he would have complemented the rogue very well. The wisdom to AC is very nice, but the d8 hit dice scares me.
The swordsage can basically be a "skirmisher" (not something most D&D characters REALLY do, as you can move up and then hit, or hit but then move back, but not move in, hit, and move back with any efficiency).

I like Weapon Finesse-y swordsages. You can also make high-strength, single-big-hit swordsages (in which case the 3/4 BAB is much less of a big deal).
Level 2 is kind of a painful level because if you're going Dex-based, you have to pick between being a Swordsage 1/Fighter or PsyWar 1 and getting Weapon Finesse at level 2 and WIS to AC at level 3, or going Swordsage 2/Fighter or PsyWar 1 or Swordsage 3 and getting WIS to AC at level 2 and Weapon Finesse at level 3.

But basically, you take Shadow Blade for DEX to damage and Adaptive Style, and attack with Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade first, and then other offensive maneuvers (like Shadow Blade Technique and Sapphire Nightmare Blade). Use Child of Shadow stance.
Dex-based swordsages suffer at low levels because Weapon Finesse has a BAB +1 prereq (which is RIDICULOUS, since the class it was primarily MADE FOR doesn't have 1 BAB at level 1). If you can get your DM to let you take it at level 1, you should be fine--there's no excuse for that prereq.

A STR-based Swordsage 2 could also use Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade (greatsword + armor spikes, spiked gauntlets, or even unarmed strike if you take the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation... which can still wear armor, since armor with 0 ACP (like Masterwork studded leather) gives no penalty for not being proficient with it). He'd have WIS to AC, but would have a lower Dex (from raising STR). He'd have more single-hit strikes.


I guess the question it comes down to for me is, with the makeup of our group as is (sorcerer/rogue, duskblade, cleric) would it benefit the GROUP more with a tank type or the Swordsage? Not being a veteran of the game made me think in the direction of the tank.

It sounds like your group would benefit more from an Unseen Seer or a Beguiler, a real caster with some skills to make up for the sorcerer/rogue (who will have neither good spellcasting nor good skills).

Duskblades make great tanks. So do Clerics. You've got "beefy frontline" covered. That doesn't mean battlefield control is a bad idea, mind--battlefield control keeps enemies in place for your front line to bash them. But it does mean that your party doesn't *need* a tank. IMO, you need a competent arcanist more than anything; you could hybridize and work toward making an arcane trickster type, or a gish. But if you want to play a melee type, your options are basically open.

Kabump
2008-03-27, 04:36 PM
I like Weapon Finesse-y swordsages. You can also make high-strength, single-big-hit swordsages (in which case the 3/4 BAB is much less of a big deal).
Level 2 is kind of a painful level because if you're going Dex-based, you have to pick between being a Swordsage 1/Fighter or PsyWar 1 and getting Weapon Finesse at level 2 and WIS to AC at level 3, or going Swordsage 2/Fighter or PsyWar 1 or Swordsage 3 and getting WIS to AC at level 2 and Weapon Finesse at level 3.

That is pretty much how I rolled my Swordsage. This is how I have him at the moment (Stats I had some GREAT rolls on :smallbiggrin: ):

Str: 14 Dex: 18 Con: 16 Int: 12 Wis: 17 Cha: 10

Feats: Weapon Focus(ShadowHand) (from swordsage class), Imp Init, Shadow Blade (human bonus feat).

Studded Leather Armor for an AC of 20, Short Sword for +4 to hit (atm) and 1d6+2(str)+4(dex) dmg while in my Shadowhand Stance (Currently Child of Shadows)

Stances:
1: Child of Shadows
2: Island of Blades (for flanking with zee rogue)

Manuevers:
1:Shadow Blade Tech, Clinging Shadow Strike, Saphire Nightmare blade, Burning Blade, Wind Stride, Distracting Ember (for flanking once I get Assassin's Stance)
2:Counter Charge

Normally, I would take Adaptive Style over Imp Init, but 1) our DM has some funky house rules on Inititive which REALLY increases the usefulness of the feat (essentially a d10 for init rather than a d20) and 2) house rule on Adaptive style to only allow it change maneuvers you have readied but not used. He thinks its much to over powered as it stands now. He hasnt played using the book yet, so this would be his first time seeing a class in action, Im hoping he'll change his mind about how the feat works as we go :) At lvl 3, planning on getting Weapon Finesse, I can wait one level before getting the feat, not a big deal in my eyes.





But basically, you take Shadow Blade for DEX to damage and Adaptive Style, and attack with Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade first, and then other offensive maneuvers (like Shadow Blade Technique and Sapphire Nightmare Blade). Use Child of Shadow stance.


How does Wolf Fang work with only one weapon? I thought you needed 2 to use it, I must have misread it, Ill go back and check.



Dex-based swordsages suffer at low levels because Weapon Finesse has a BAB +1 prereq (which is RIDICULOUS, since the class it was primarily MADE FOR doesn't have 1 BAB at level 1). If you can get your DM to let you take it at level 1, you should be fine--there's no excuse for that prereq.


/agree on this. Ill have a chat with my DM prior to our next session.



It sounds like your group would benefit more from an Unseen Seer or a [b]Beguiler[/b[, a real caster with some skills to make up for the sorcerer/rogue (who will have neither good spellcasting nor good skills).


Methinks I'll talk with our Sorcerer/Rogue and tell him about the Beguiler, Im not sure he was aware of it (I wasnt really till I just looked it up after reading your post :) ) Looks interesting, and right up the ally of the motive this guy is looking for in his character!



Duskblades make great tanks. So do Clerics. You've got "beefy frontline" covered. That doesn't mean battlefield control is a bad idea, mind--battlefield control keeps enemies in place for your front line to bash them. But it does mean that your party doesn't *need* a tank. IMO, you need a competent arcanist more than anything; you could hybridize and work toward making an arcane trickster type, or a gish. But if you want to play a melee type, your options are basically open.

Clerics I could see, but wasnt so sure about the Duskblade. Ill trust you, as Im still very much a novice at the game :) Thanks for your input, this newbian can use all the help he can get!

graymachine
2008-03-27, 04:46 PM
There are several things you could do depending on how you want to go about your goals. With 4d6 reroll 1s you could turn out a decent monk focused on tripping, not a bad way to go. You could also always go cleric as focus on the combat aspect, assuming the other cleric is focusing on magic. If you can swing a large size type (I don't think you can with only 2 levels, but I'm sleepy and could be wrong) the reach helps control the battlefield, which you could couple with the Large and In Charge feat, letting you basically control enemy charging. It seems you don't have a dedicated arcane caster (sorcerers don't really count and multi-classed ones especially don't count) and that is usually pretty vital. A wizard can control the battlefield very well as long as you pay attention to your build. Other options are floating around.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-27, 05:17 PM
That is pretty much how I rolled my Swordsage. This is how I have him at the moment (Stats I had some GREAT rolls on :smallbiggrin: ):

Str: 14 Dex: 18 Con: 16 Int: 12 Wis: 17 Cha: 10

Feats: Weapon Focus(ShadowHand) (from swordsage class), Imp Init, Shadow Blade (human bonus feat).

Studded Leather Armor for an AC of 20, Short Sword for +4 to hit (atm) and 1d6+2(str)+4(dex) dmg while in my Shadowhand Stance (Currently Child of Shadows)

Stances:
1: Child of Shadows
2: Island of Blades (for flanking with zee rogue)

Manuevers:
1:Shadow Blade Tech, Clinging Shadow Strike, Saphire Nightmare blade, Burning Blade, Wind Stride, Distracting Ember (for flanking once I get Assassin's Stance)
2:Counter Charge

Normally, I would take Adaptive Style over Imp Init, but 1) our DM has some funky house rules on Inititive which REALLY increases the usefulness of the feat (essentially a d10 for init rather than a d20) and 2) house rule on Adaptive style to only allow it change maneuvers you have readied but not used. He thinks its much to over powered as it stands now. He hasnt played using the book yet, so this would be his first time seeing a class in action, Im hoping he'll change his mind about how the feat works as we go :) At lvl 3, planning on getting Weapon Finesse, I can wait one level before getting the feat, not a big deal in my eyes.
With a 14 STR/18 DEX, yeah, you can wait.
Tell your DM that Adaptive Style as it's supposed to work is NOT overpowered, from someone who's used the ToB a bunch of times. Point out that you have to *sit out a round* for it--and if a fight lasts 5 rounds, then you just lost 1/5th of your contribution. In fact, even with Adaptive Style, my Swordsages rarely actually *use* it in combat. The Swordsage's method as written--one maneuver a round, without adaptive style--is absolutely awful without Adaptive Style: ask to change that to "one full round to get all your maneuvers back (but not ready new ones)" at least if he's going to nerf Adaptive Style that way.
With the house rule, you may still want TWF instead of Imp Init (since you'll be TWFing more later), for when you can full attack and don't have a good maneuver/any left.

Ditch Distracting Ember, it's not worthwhile. You're mobile, flanking will be easy. Ditch Wind Stride and, IMO, Counter Charge. Take Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap. You don't need to *have* TWF to use Wolf Fang Strike--just carry a second short sword or dagger! Finessey swordsages really should TWF to take advantage of Shadow Blade (and Burning Blade, and later combos like Pouncing Charge + Dancing Mongoose).
When you hit Swordsage 4, you'll probably want Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw).

Improved Initiative isn't really necessary, even with that house rule--the Swordsage already gets a *great* Initiative.
If you have access to the Strongheart Halfling subrace, that's a better choice than Human, but Human is fine (finesse-y swordsages are feat-heavy).
I recommend taking PsyWar or Fighter 1 (PsyWar if you can get fractional BAB)/ eventually Warblade 1 if you're gonna TWF--you can eventually pick up Iron Heart Aura and Stormguard Warrior. On the other hand, Stormguard Warrior is abuseable. Just.
Aim for Bloodclaw Master, 2 levels of it, at levels 8 and 9. With PsyWar or Fighter 2 by then and BCM 2, you'll get Swordsage 6 at level 10 and pick up Pouncing Charge and Dancing Mongoose at once.

Counter Charge is a nice thought, but I rarely have the room to prepare it. I'd take Moment of Perfect Mind--it'll be useful later, and it'll qualify you for other Diamond Mind maneuvers (like Insightful Strike, which is pretty great when you first get it).

Take Weapon Finesse at third (and TWF, if you took that Fighter/PsyWar level), TWF at sixth (Extra Readied Maneuver if you have it already), ITWF at 9th, Gloom Razor at 12th...


How does Wolf Fang work with only one weapon? I thought you needed 2 to use it, I must have misread it, Ill go back and check.
It doesn't. Get another one. It's not like you're using your off-hand anyway, and you can *hold* a second weapon without TWFing with it all the time. You can even hold it if you don't have TWF.


/agree on this. Ill have a chat with my DM prior to our next session.
Pet peeve of mine, but seriously, WHY ON EARTH would you want rogues to spend the first two levels either not hitting or not getting sneak attack (STR attacks or ranged weapons)? They're going to be finesseing for the next 18 levels! Just give it to'em at level 1! Aaaaugh!


Methinks I'll talk with our Sorcerer/Rogue and tell him about the Beguiler, Im not sure he was aware of it (I wasnt really till I just looked it up after reading your post :) ) Looks interesting, and right up the ally of the motive this guy is looking for in his character!
Beguiler is very good. It's not the most powerful, but it's well above average, and is probably my FAVORITE class. You always have something to do (even against undead and golems--Silent Image, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, etc!), you shine in almost all situations (both combat and non), you crank your save DCs, you have lots of skills (6+INT, INT-based caster) including UMD, you shine in social situations, you can be flashy/stylish and sneaky in turns...

Sorcerer/Rogue sounds like the player wants to play a Beguiler. That's what the class is. Its spell list *really* shines for the first 8-10 levels: Color Spray, Silent Image, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, Deep Slumber, Solid Fog, etc.
Suggestions: take Spell Focus: Enchantment, take Distract Assailant (CAdv? SpC?) for the level 3 Advanced Learning, and take Unsettling Enchantment (CMage) as the level three feat.
Also, look at Mindbender in the Complete Arcane. The class sucks because it loses caster levels (meaning straight-up casters Dominate *better* than it), but the first level is a great dip: you get 100' telepathy (and can take Mindsight from Lords of Madness if you happen to have it) and you delay your second Advanced Learning by a level... meaning you can take 4th level spells with it. Like Shadow Conjuration.
Beguilers are effective and a ton of fun. Can't recommend them enough.



Clerics I could see, but wasnt so sure about the Duskblade. Ill trust you, as Im still very much a novice at the game :) Thanks for your input, this newbian can use all the help he can get!
Basically, between Quick Cast and Channel Spell, the Duskblade can pump out a lot of damage. A low-level staple is Blade of Blood + a channeled spell, or a quick-cast True Strike + a channeled spell + full Power Attack. And they have good Will saves, so they're harder to disable than a Fighter.
The Duskblade is a solid offensive melee class.

Frosty
2008-03-27, 05:39 PM
Seriously. Sorcerer/Rogues suck. I mean, look at Nale. he can't even defeat ELAN or all people. Nale totally wanted to be a Beguiler, but probably couldn't because PHB2 wasn't around yet back then.

Kabump
2008-03-27, 06:36 PM
With a 14 STR/18 DEX, yeah, you can wait.
Tell your DM that Adaptive Style as it's supposed to work is NOT overpowered, from someone who's used the ToB a bunch of times. Point out that you have to *sit out a round* for it--and if a fight lasts 5 rounds, then you just lost 1/5th of your contribution. In fact, even with Adaptive Style, my Swordsages rarely actually *use* it in combat. The Swordsage's method as written--one maneuver a round, without adaptive style--is absolutely awful without Adaptive Style: ask to change that to "one full round to get all your maneuvers back (but not ready new ones)" at least if he's going to nerf Adaptive Style that way.

That seems reasonable. I will bring these arguments to him.



With the house rule, you may still want TWF instead of Imp Init (since you'll be TWFing more later), for when you can full attack and don't have a good maneuver/any left.


Not really familiar with how TWF works, so I was kinda shying away from the Tiger Claw stuff and was focusing on Shadowhand/Diamond mind and the single weapon TC moves. With my progression I planned out (I plan my builds out, Im OCD like that :) ), I have the lvl 9 maneuvers for SH, DM, and TC at 20th lvl, while focusing mostly on Shadowhand styles. Althought I have to admit, the Bloodclaw Master PrC looks a lot of fun.



Ditch Distracting Ember, it's not worthwhile. You're mobile, flanking will be easy. Ditch Wind Stride and, IMO, Counter Charge. Take Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap. You don't need to *have* TWF to use Wolf Fang Strike--just carry a second short sword or dagger! Finessey swordsages really should TWF to take advantage of Shadow Blade (and Burning Blade, and later combos like Pouncing Charge + Dancing Mongoose).
When you hit Swordsage 4, you'll probably want Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw).


I was going for Distracting Ember for flanking if i happened to not be near an ally, and thinking of assassin's stance for the 2d6 damage. But if I switch my focus to the TWF (which looks very appealing the more i read), it makes sense to drop these moves.



Improved Initiative isn't really necessary, even with that house rule--the Swordsage already gets a *great* Initiative.
If you have access to the Strongheart Halfling subrace, that's a better choice than Human, but Human is fine (finesse-y swordsages are feat-heavy).
I recommend taking PsyWar or Fighter 1 (PsyWar if you can get fractional BAB)/ eventually Warblade 1 if you're gonna TWF--you can eventually pick up Iron Heart Aura and Stormguard Warrior. On the other hand, Stormguard Warrior is abuseable. Just.
Aim for Bloodclaw Master, 2 levels of it, at levels 8 and 9. With PsyWar or Fighter 2 by then and BCM 2, you'll get Swordsage 6 at level 10 and pick up Pouncing Charge and Dancing Mongoose at once.


Ahh nice I was hoping BCM was gonna come in to play! :smallbiggrin: No psionics, so psy warr is out. So its looking like then, you are suggesting fighter lvl 1, then swordsage then BCM. Is Stormgaurd Warrior really that nice to pick it up? Combat rhythm looks very nice, I have to admit, and Im guessing the reason it works well with TWF is because off the insane ammount of touch attacks you could take.



Counter Charge is a nice thought, but I rarely have the room to prepare it. I'd take Moment of Perfect Mind--it'll be useful later, and it'll qualify you for other Diamond Mind maneuvers (like Insightful Strike, which is pretty great when you first get it).


In my build, I pick up Insightful Strike at lvl 5 :)



Take Weapon Finesse at third (and TWF, if you took that Fighter/PsyWar level), TWF at sixth (Extra Readied Maneuver if you have it already), ITWF at 9th, Gloom Razor at 12th...


Think ill do fighter 1 for bonus feats, then swordsage from there for those feat progressions. Question about Blade Meditation. Was thinking of picking it up. If i DONT do TWF, is it as good a feat as it seems? My original plan was focusing on SH moves, so I took Blade Med (Shadow Hand). With the TWF chain, doesnt seem like enough feats to pick it up however.

On another note, Stances. Gonna want to stay in a SH stance for Shadowblade I imagine in combat, but any good stances that are worth picking up for situational usefulness?



It doesn't. Get another one. It's not like you're using your off-hand anyway, and you can *hold* a second weapon without TWFing with it all the time. You can even hold it if you don't have TWF.


Interesting, was not aware of this :smallbiggrin:



Beguiler is very good. It's not the most powerful, but it's well above average, and is probably my FAVORITE class. You always have something to do (even against undead and golems--Silent Image, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, etc!), you shine in almost all situations (both combat and non), you crank your save DCs, you have lots of skills (6+INT, INT-based caster) including UMD, you shine in social situations, you can be flashy/stylish and sneaky in turns...
...
Sorcerer/Rogue sounds like the player wants to play a Beguiler. That's what the class is.
Beguilers are effective and a ton of fun. Can't recommend them enough.


Looks like im campaigning for my friend to play this instead of sroc/rogue :D And yes, this class sounds EXACTLY what he wants to play.

Thanks for taking the time to banter with me, lots of good info and things to think about!

Reel On, Love
2008-03-27, 07:12 PM
That seems reasonable. I will bring these arguments to him.
Hopefully he'll be reasonable, but sometimes people aren't.


Not really familiar with how TWF works, so I was kinda shying away from the Tiger Claw stuff and was focusing on Shadowhand/Diamond mind and the single weapon TC moves. With my progression I planned out (I plan my builds out, Im OCD like that :) ), I have the lvl 9 maneuvers for SH, DM, and TC at 20th lvl, while focusing mostly on Shadowhand styles. Althought I have to admit, the Bloodclaw Master PrC looks a lot of fun.
TWF with two light weapons works like this: you take the TWF feat, and you get an extra attack with your off-hand weapon on a full attack. All your attacks are at -2. (It'd be -4 main hand/-4 off hand if you were using two non-light weapons, like longswords.)
Improved TWF means you get a second attack, just like an iterative attack (so, at -5), for your off hand. Greater TWF gets you a third one (at -10, and therefore not necessarily worth taking--each feat in the chain gets smaller benefits, sadly.

The 9th level Tiger Claw maneuver has a DC based on Strength, so it won't do you too much good (although you could be using it for the 20d6--but then, keep in mind it's a full-round action). It's a lot better to have Swooping Dragon Strike, which has a Stun DC based on your jump check, denies them their dex to AC, and adds 10d6 damage.
The Shadow Hand maneuver is fun, but the save would get made a lot.

As a swordsage, you can cherrypick the best stuff from a bunch of schools.


I was going for Distracting Ember for flanking if i happened to not be near an ally, and thinking of assassin's stance for the 2d6 damage. But if I switch my focus to the TWF (which looks very appealing the more i read), it makes sense to drop these moves.
Frankly, flanking should be relatively easy to achieve almost all the time, and Distracting Ember is one round. It wouldn't be worth preparing.


Ahh nice I was hoping BCM was gonna come in to play! :smallbiggrin: No psionics, so psy warr is out. So its looking like then, you are suggesting fighter lvl 1, then swordsage then BCM. Is Stormgaurd Warrior really that nice to pick it up? Combat rhythm looks very nice, I have to admit, and Im guessing the reason it works well with TWF is because off the insane ammount of touch attacks you could take.
If you take 1 level of fighter, take 2 (or 1 Fighter, and eventually 1 Warblade)--when you're a Martial Adept, levels in all other classes count as 1/2 for your initiator level (so a Swordsage 11/Warblade 4 would have a Swordsage IL of 13 and a Warblade IL of 9, and would be capable of learning appropriate-level maneuvers).

Stormguard Warrior is very nice, precisely because you can turn your later iterative attacks into touch attacks, which means that instead of likely missing they'll add damage next round. If you fit Combat Reflexes in, you can use Stormguard Warrior that way, too (Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard Warrior are a ridiculously powerful combination, but feat-intensive).

Another advantage of Warblade is some Warblade maneuvers. Time it right and you can pick up Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics (qualified for by the White Raven stance you pick up too) all with 1 level of Warblade. That level would be coming post-level-10, though (or early on, and you can get Iron Heart Surge, say, via one of those items from the ToB--Crown of the White Raven, Iron heart Vest, etc.

An "ideal" progression looking at it from level 20 is something like Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage +1/Warblade +1/Fighter +1/Swordsage rest. You actually get 16 BAB (for four iterative attacks) that way, too.
However, this involves having a slower maneuver progression than normal Swordsages, which can be frustrating in play--and you aren't likely to play to 20 if you start at 2. Something like Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/BCM 2/Swordsage rest would work out better from 2. In fact, you can pretty safely dispense with the non-Swordsage levels. You just won't be able to pick up IHA->Stormguard Warrior, might get some feats a little later than otherwise, etc.


In my build, I pick up Insightful Strike at lvl 5 :)
It's a good choice. You'll want Mind Over Body, too.
Other maneuvers you should pick up are Searing Blade (for TWF--if you take Fan the Flames, that qualifies you, and you can later trade Fan the Flames out once the 6d6 isn't impressive).


Think ill do fighter 1 for bonus feats, then swordsage from there for those feat progressions. Question about Blade Meditation. Was thinking of picking it up. If i DONT do TWF, is it as good a feat as it seems? My original plan was focusing on SH moves, so I took Blade Med (Shadow Hand). With the TWF chain, doesnt seem like enough feats to pick it up however.
Blade Meditation isn't really a worthwhile feat in any case.


On another note, Stances. Gonna want to stay in a SH stance for Shadowblade I imagine in combat, but any good stances that are worth picking up for situational usefulness?
Hunter's Sense gets you Scent for finding invisible opponents, but you mostly want to do that in combat. Hearing the Air could be useful out of combat (blindsense). Honestly, I'd just stick to Shadow Hand stances: take Child of Shadow and Island of Blades, then pick up Assassin's Stance, and then, well, see from there. The remaining ones aren't too useful, but Dance of the Spider can be fun if you get it early enough, and you can always get other stances (like Hearing the Air) and not use them often.


Looks like im campaigning for my friend to play this instead of sroc/rogue :D And yes, this class sounds EXACTLY what he wants to play.

Thanks for taking the time to banter with me, lots of good info and things to think about!
No prob. The Beguiler definitely fills a popular niche and does it well.

Kabump
2008-03-27, 08:26 PM
Hopefully he'll be reasonable, but sometimes people aren't.


He's very reasonable. Ive talked him into allowing my Monk to take Imp Natural attack (Yes, I know monks suck. :) I came to D&D from NWN, where monks were actually really good!) as well as even letting me use ToB to begin with hehe.



TWF with two light weapons works like this: you take the TWF feat, and you get an extra attack with your off-hand weapon on a full attack. All your attacks are at -2. (It'd be -4 main hand/-4 off hand if you were using two non-light weapons, like longswords.)
Improved TWF means you get a second attack, just like an iterative attack (so, at -5), for your off hand. Greater TWF gets you a third one (at -10, and therefore not necessarily worth taking--each feat in the chain gets smaller benefits, sadly.


Ahh ok, seems worth taking for boosts then, more attacks with the bonuses and what not. Sounds fun!



The 9th level Tiger Claw maneuver has a DC based on Strength, so it won't do you too much good (although you could be using it for the 20d6--but then, keep in mind it's a full-round action). It's a lot better to have Swooping Dragon Strike, which has a Stun DC based on your jump check, denies them their dex to AC, and adds 10d6 damage.
The Shadow Hand maneuver is fun, but the save would get made a lot.

As a swordsage, you can cherrypick the best stuff from a bunch of schools.


Hmm, i guess I was just caught up in the "insta-kill" mentality. Plus the SH 9th level just sounds so damn cool! Oh well. Time to re-read all the moves and find the best ones I suppose :)



Stormguard Warrior is very nice, precisely because you can turn your later iterative attacks into touch attacks, which means that instead of likely missing they'll add damage next round. If you fit Combat Reflexes in, you can use Stormguard Warrior that way, too (Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard Warrior are a ridiculously powerful combination, but feat-intensive).

Another advantage of Warblade is some Warblade maneuvers. Time it right and you can pick up Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics (qualified for by the White Raven stance you pick up too) all with 1 level of Warblade. That level would be coming post-level-10, though (or early on, and you can get Iron Heart Surge, say, via one of those items from the ToB--Crown of the White Raven, Iron heart Vest, etc.


Thats quite a combo, reading up on all those. Seems out of place tho, IMO, for the flavor of the TWF build. Maybe thats just me, however for another character...



An "ideal" progression looking at it from level 20 is something like Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage +1/Warblade +1/Fighter +1/Swordsage rest. You actually get 16 BAB (for four iterative attacks) that way, too.
However, this involves having a slower maneuver progression than normal Swordsages, which can be frustrating in play--and you aren't likely to play to 20 if you start at 2. Something like Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/BCM 2/Swordsage rest would work out better from 2. In fact, you can pretty safely dispense with the non-Swordsage levels. You just won't be able to pick up IHA->Stormguard Warrior, might get some feats a little later than otherwise, etc.


Probably gonna just drop the Warblade. The fact that my build is not maximised isnt gonna kill me, especially since i need to be able to ROLEPLAY my multiclass choices. Limiting it to fighter/swordsage/BCM makes it easier on me :) However I had a question about the BCM. Seeing as how Im only grabbing 2 levels, I assumes its for the Superior TWF ability of the class. However, the text reads "Starting at 2nd level, when you attack with two daggers or Tiger Claw weapons, you do not take the –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons." Seeing as how I need to be using SH weapons for Shadowblade, I was planning on using Short Swords, but that doesnt seem to be covered by the text. Daggers seems to be the only overlap, and those seem so... small and pointy :)



It's a good choice. You'll want Mind Over Body, too.
Other maneuvers you should pick up are Searing Blade (for TWF--if you take Fan the Flames, that qualifies you, and you can later trade Fan the Flames out once the 6d6 isn't impressive).


Got MoB at 6 :smallbiggrin: And Fan the Flames: 6d6 ranged touch yes please! :)



Blade Meditation isn't really a worthwhile feat in any case.


Any particular reason why? I would think if you use the focused school a lot, another +1 to hit and the increased DC would be nice. Is it just a matter of in reality not as effective as you would think? I can imagine with TWF, I wouldnt have the feat free spot really to take it, but a non-twf build I would think it could be useful.



Hunter's Sense gets you Scent for finding invisible opponents, but you mostly want to do that in combat. Hearing the Air could be useful out of combat (blindsense). Honestly, I'd just stick to Shadow Hand stances: take Child of Shadow and Island of Blades, then pick up Assassin's Stance, and then, well, see from there. The remaining ones aren't too useful, but Dance of the Spider can be fun if you get it early enough, and you can always get other stances (like Hearing the Air) and not use them often.


I had me picking up Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, and Assasin's Stance for combat use. I have myself picking up Hearing the Air for noncombat. I Figure swift action to change stances, just keep that up not in combat and should i get in combat just switch to shadowhand stance. Dance of the Spider Id like just to climb around on walls for to pull pranks ( my SS will be chaotic good, and will like to pull pranks :D )



No prob. The Beguiler definitely fills a popular niche and does it well.

I told him about it, he seems intrigued to say the least :)