Can this party take on Asmodeus?

[Frosty]

Or rather, his Aspect as described in Fiendish Codex II? I'm thinking about running a short one-shot adventure of 4 level 20s for my friends. The point is to steal one of the copies of the Pact Primeval (the one in Nessus, the ninth layer of Baator). Asmodeus is away, but his CR27 Aspect is there to guard it, and the party must defeat the Aspect in order to get the Pact. There has been some ideas on the party composition, and so far they're leaning towards:

Cleric 5/Full cast PRC X/Another Full caster PRC
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5
Warblade 20
Spellthief 10/Hellbreaker 10

Can this group composition make it? No candles of invocation or anything like that, and Gate doesn't work because of how Nessus is protected. If you were playing the party, what would your strategy be?

[graymachine]

Are you including any penalties for being on the Plane (visa vi alignments), as appears in Planescapes? I don't think that they really are present in 3.5 (maybe their in the splat books about the Planes, but I can't recall) but I've seen a lot of games incorporate them.

[Frosty]

I believe specific locations on Nessus do bad things to non-evil creatures. I'll definitely take that into account if they go there.

[Kalirren]

Yes, trivially, if they can get Mephistopheles' help. That bugger is always looking for a way to screw Asmodeus. The question is whether they will have to/be able to deal with Mephistopheles afterwards.

If that's not an option, then it's not so trivial. Incantatrix 10 is strong though. I don't know, Cooperative-metamagicked miracle? Lot of options there, find a winning one and you're set.

[Reel On, Love]

Asmodeus is away, but his CR27 Aspect is there to guard it, and the party must defeat the Aspect in order to get the Pact.

...Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5...

Can this group composition make it?

Yes. Yes, it can.

[Frosty]

Come now, Reel on, be serious. You can't just see the word "Incantatrix" and associate that with "win" it doesn't automatically work that wat.

[Mewtarthio]

What do they intend to do if they win? "Hooray, we've just insulted the Overlord of Hell! Let's go off and celebrate and hope he doesn't use is eons of experience and impossibly vast intellect to figure it out and make us suffer so much that we will forget all the good that has ever been and know nothing save pain! Ooh, ale and hookers!"

[Citizen Joe]

Can that team beat an aspect? Maybe.
Can that team get a copy of Pact Primeval? Maybe.
Did Asmodeus intend for them to do so anyway in order to further his goals? Definitely.

[puppyavenger]

Can that team beat an aspect? Maybe.
Can that team get a copy of Pact Primeval? Maybe.
Did Asmodeus intend for them to do so anyway in order to further his goals? Definitely.

Asmodeus, the unhly lovehild of batman and Xantos

[Just Alex]

I dunno, the aspect has the nasty ability to summon any of the other lord's of hell's aspects. That make the encounter pretty damn tough for being 7 levels lower than the cr.

[The_Snark]

What do they intend to do if they win? "Hooray, we've just insulted the Overlord of Hell! Let's go off and celebrate and hope he doesn't use is eons of experience and impossibly vast intellect to figure it out and make us suffer so much that we will forget all the good that has ever been and know nothing save pain! Ooh, ale and hookers!"

My advice would be to move to Celestia, preferably on the sixth layer (that is to say, the hardest one to get to aside from the uninhabited seventh), and never ever leave for the rest of your lives. Make sure you're Lawful Good, and try to find some way to anchor your soul there when you eventually die so that Asmodeus can't claim your soul as recompense for the theft, or some such ploy to inflict eternal torment on you. It's not failsafe, but it's probably the best chance you have.

[AslanCross]

They might be able to take on the aspect alone, but what about the rest of the legions of devils that stand between them and Nessus? I'm pretty sure FCII says that it's impossible to planeshift/teleport into Baator any deeper than Avernus. (that's why demons haven't gotten past the first layer, and they're too disorganized to beat Bel's defense forces there)
They have to go there physically from Avernus.

Then there's the matter of getting out.

[Frosty]

The story goes that the heros have successfully went through the previous 8 layers of Baator already (gaining a few levels on the way, and spending a LOT of exp crafting stuff. They will have about 133% of level 20 WBL). To get out, they'll need to quickly traverse the previous layers...probably by teleporting within the layer and finding the entry point they used earlier.

[Frosty]

Can that team beat an aspect? Maybe.
Can that team get a copy of Pact Primeval? Maybe.
Did Asmodeus intend for them to do so anyway in order to further his goals? Definitely.

They said they hope to catch Asmodeus off guard. Is that possible by RAW?

[Reel On, Love]

Come now, Reel on, be serious. You can't just see the word "Incantatrix" and associate that with "win" it doesn't automatically work that wat.

Actually, it does.

[Frosty]

Actually, it does.

I believe you're confusing Incantatrix with "Druid." One's a metamagic ho, and the other likes animals. There's a difference.

[Reel On, Love]

I believe you're confusing Incantatrix with "Druid." One's a metamagic ho, and the other likes animals. There's a difference.

Incantatrix is the Druid of Wizard PrCs.

[Citizen Joe]

They said they hope to catch Asmodeus off guard. Is that possible by RAW?

Well you just said it:


The story goes that the heros have successfully went through the previous 8 layers of Baator already (gaining a few levels on the way, and spending a LOT of exp crafting stuff. They will have about 133% of level 20 WBL). To get out, they'll need to quickly traverse the previous layers...probably by teleporting within the layer and finding the entry point they used earlier.


The party has been in Asmodeus's domain with all his associated spies for several levels. In fact they have been presumably using materials from Hell in order to make their stuff. I don't see how Asmodeus could POSSIBLY NOT know about their presence. He probably put this crazy idea into one of the player's head from the start and they are just doing his dirty work, killing off various devils that he has a grudge against. I wouldn't even be shocked if, after getting the Pact and 'escaping' if all their carefully crafted items tainted them all. Perhaps they could even 'escape' to Celestia where they shortly discover that their lovely items act as an anchor for a gate so that Asmodeus can wage direct war on Celestia, striking deep in the heart of his enemy.

[Frosty]

One player insists that their Mindblanks will protect them from discovery. I'm not so sure.

[senrath]

One player insists that their Mindblanks will protect them from discovery. I'm not so sure.


The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

It won't. The only way it would protect them is if nothing they encountered had any means of sending communication anywhere.

[Frosty]

Well, they could use disguises, but after the 100th telepathic communication consisting of "Help, we're under attack by 4 devils we've never seen before and we don't know who they work for! They have strange powers normally not found in our ranks!" I think Asmodeus might get suspicious.

[Citizen Joe]

You have to remember that Asmodeus is continually under threat from others. He has multiple layers of protection, detection and contingencies and thousands of years to come up with these plans. He is a master manipulator. It is a cosmic shell game where you think you have a winning option, but you really don't. Asmodeus has already thought of that, countered it, and then twisted it in such a way that all your options end up benefiting him. This can all be done without picking up any dice.

Now, that being said, there is nothing stopping the PC's from winning, it is just that Asmodeus wins as well. I've never really envisioned Asmodeus as the type that wants to kill PC's when he can manipulate them into doing furthering his aims. The PC's only clue would be when one of them gets suspicious and says "Wait. This is too easy."

[Frosty]

So the players (or at least one of the players) is Batman and Asmodeus is Doctor Doom?

[Kalirren]

...Wow, I was totally unaware of the whole "can't teleport past Avernus" thing. I doubt even Mephistopheles would be able to deal with that.

No, no, they can't do it. Not if Asmodeus didn't plan it. Incantatrix, schmincantatrix, I don't care if there's a hundred of him. Asmodeus'll be ready for them one way or another, and he has the strategy of "antimagic fields + epic spells" as a last resort. There's undoubtedly a more elegant, less brute force way, but I just can't be bothered to think of it.

I like the suggestion though, that Asmodeus may very well wish the Pact Primeval to be stolen. (Assuming it's even in physical form. I've never read FCII.)

[Grey Paladin]

They said they hope to catch Asmodeus off guard. Is that possible by RAW?

At least in Planescape, Asmodeus is the source of Law, Punishment, and some theorize, all evil. while not on the level of the creators of the universe (whoever they are, no one is really sure) he was amongst their first (and most powerful) creations in all of existence, conjured to guard the world of mortals. some say that he was to guard it from demons though that hardly makes sense, others claim he was to keep the world from being overwhelmed by Limbo's 'Allfather' rift and Chaospawns, the third 'common' theory, and my favorite, claims that he was to keep the multiverse, a tiny abnormality in the Far Realms, from being reclaimed.

For a reason unknown to all but the most ancient of the gods Asmodeus was one day banished from the Upper Planes and the mortal world he so lovingly took care of and cast down into the then desolated wasteland now known as the Lower Planes, his crash shaped the terrain and the blood from the cursed wound the Creators have inflicted upon him corrupted it.

Until this day his twisted, snakelike (and supposedly endless) body lays in the deepest levels of what is now known as the Nine Hells of Baator, stretching through all of the lower planes, bleeding the River Styx, until this day he hasn't forgotten, until this day he is plotting his revenge upon all of existence for taking his beloved world from him and corrupting his form

Anyone repeating that story about the nature of Asmodeus disappear 24 hours later never to be seen again, no exceptions.

So is it possible to avoid Punishment for breaking a Law from the one who invented both concepts and could likely Solo the modern pantheon?
you decide.

[Frosty]

...Wow, I was totally unaware of the whole "can't teleport past Avernus" thing. I doubt even Mephistopheles would be able to deal with that.

No, no, they can't do it. Not if Asmodeus didn't plan it. Incantatrix, schmincantatrix, I don't care if there's a hundred of him. Asmodeus'll be ready for them one way or another, and he has the strategy of "antimagic fields + epic spells" as a last resort. There's undoubtedly a more elegant, less brute force way, but I just can't be bothered to think of it.

I like the suggestion though, that Asmodeus may very well wish the Pact Primeval to be stolen. (Assuming it's even in physical form. I've never read FCII.)

It is physical. It's trapped in a Ruby approximately 10 tons in weight (lbs) that is so large it can't fit through the doors of the palace.

And they're not fighting the big A themselves. Just his CR27 aspect which does NOT have any epic spellcasting. And the Warblade can end AMFs anyways.

[Grey Paladin]

Asmodeus sees all, Asmodeus knows all, Asmodeus plans, Asmodeus consumes all.

As others have said, the players can do so only if Asmodeus lets them.

[CASTLEMIKE]

As the unquestioned master of Baator, Asmodeus can work nearly any magic within it's boundaries as an act of will. Asmodeus is aware of every plot hatched against him.

Perhaps Asmodeus has healed and the PCs stealing the Pact will be triggering event that starts the apocalyptic struggle between good and evil.

Don't forget the pact is enclosed in an enormous ruby that weighs over 20 tons inside the deepest vault inside the copper citadel which was built around the ruby. (The big question is it the real deal or a copy cat artifact?)

That Aura of Submission each round could be interesting with a Greater Dispel Magic messing with the Mindblanks or other protection magics.

[Reel On, Love]

Asmodeus sees all, Asmodeus knows all, Asmodeus plans, Asmodeus consumes all.

As others have said, the players can do so only if Asmodeus lets them.

Wow, is that ever pointless.


Why do game writers even bother with this kind of "haha, Asmodeus wins period, no matter what" crap? It's as bad as the stats for 7th Sea NPCs in the Avalon book (which literally consist of "always succeeds" in a couple of cases).

Why even have Asmodeus? Just to yank players around? "Ha ha, Asmodeus PLANNED IT ALL ALONG. Lulz!"

[Frosty]

I thought thr Ruby is only 10 tons at 20,000 lbs? Do Bags of Holding even go up that high?

On the other hand, the Ruby would make one HELL of a material component or focus.

[Grey Paladin]

Wow, is that ever pointless.


Why do game writers even bother with this kind of "haha, Asmodeus wins period, no matter what" crap? It's as bad as the stats for 7th Sea NPCs in the Avalon book (which literally consist of "always succeeds" in a couple of cases).

Why even have Asmodeus? Just to yank players around? "Ha ha, Asmodeus PLANNED IT ALL ALONG. Lulz!"

"Real life sucks! I can't kill god!!!!"

Not every creature in existence has to exist solely so that the PCs can kill him for 1337 1007 and EXP.

[CASTLEMIKE]

My book says it weighs over 20 tons in the description on page 76.

Since the Pact is a Major Artifact is the Ruby it is encased in a minor artifact after all these millenia and possibly immune to most mundane lesser magics? (You are the DM so it is your call if there are No Shrink Item spells, No Portable Holes........etc.)

[senrath]

"Real life sucks! I can't kill god!!!!"

Not every creature in existence has to exist solely so that the PCs can kill him for 1337 1007 and EXP.

I always kinda figured that you could take down someone like Asmodeus, but only if every single person involved was really far along in epic levels, and you had at least 4 or 5 people doing it.

Edit: Also, who says Asmodeus never slips up?

[Frosty]

Well, I guess you could...Disjunction? Although that miss piss off a deity

Anyhow, what about the actual battle itself? What do you think would be the tacttics the Aspect would use to neutral those 4 dangerous adventures? (Hellbreakers are dangerous right?)

[senrath]

Well, I guess you could...Disjunction? Although that miss piss off a deity

Anyhow, what about the actual battle itself? What do you think would be the tacttics the Aspect would use to neutral those 4 dangerous adventures? (Hellbreakers are dangerous right?)

Although this might not be accurate for the Aspect, I personally would make use of every single trap and protection that Asmodeus put in to the best of my abilities.

[Reel On, Love]

"Real life sucks! I can't kill god!!!!"

Not every creature in existence has to exist solely so that the PCs can kill him for 1337 1007 and EXP.

Ah, yes, of course. I only have a problem with that because I'm a powerhungry munchkin.


Or maybe, just possibly, could I have a problem with it because it's nothing more than a blunt "you lose" card? DM Fiat, Asmodeus Always Wins! So why include him in adventures, then? Ao could always win, too, but he's reserved for a very occasional plot device.

Having an NPC who ACTUALLY WINS, NO MATTER WHAT, HA HA, is exactly the same thing as railroading, which is commonly accepted as bad practice. "But, you see, your victory was really Asmodeus' plan all along." Basically, Asmodeus is the writer-and-DM equivalent of munchkinism.

And it's bad. It's bad for the story. It's bad for the game. Look at this thread--a bunch of heroes alternately tricking and carving their way through the Hells and over, defeating an aspect of Asmodeus, and striking a (minor, but real and heroic) blow against him by seizing/destroying something he values?
That could be some damn fine D&D, right there. Epic, heroic, challenging...
...but, wait, no. Asmodeus Wins, Period! He saw this coming a thousand years ago! You're playing right into his hands!
So much for epic, heroic, and challenging.

To sum up: I don't have a problem with demon lords (or whatever elese) too powerful for the PCs to face until epic levels or even ever (no different from high-level monsters compared to low-level PCs)... but if they're too powerful for your level 30 party, they should be busy with equall cosmic-scale beings, rather than making plans that *involve* your party, or having contingencies for everything your party does. They definitely should be unable on some level to strike against the party directly ("you stole his ruby whatsit! Asmodeus kills you. New characters!"), whether because they don't or can't operate on that fine a scale or because they're busy with their good-aligned equivalents. Epic PCs should be able to win fundamental victories over them through things just *like* wading through defenses to take something they value.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well it is inside a Castle in Hell. Kinda like the Pentagon of Hell. Doubtful the castle is empty. Lots of flunkies and lots of Pitfiends:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend

The occassional MHB Aspect of Asmodeus popping in and out irregularly. Believe Wizard's had another Aspect of Asmodeus web article that is less than the CR27 in FC2 and the MHB Aspect.

[senrath]

Ah, yes, of course. I only have a problem with that because I'm a powerhungry munchkin.


Or maybe, just possibly, could I have a problem with it because it's nothing more than a blunt "you lose" card? DM Fiat, Asmodeus Always Wins! So why include him in adventures, then? Ao could always win, too, but he's reserved for a very occasional plot device.

Having an NPC who ACTUALLY WINS, NO MATTER WHAT, HA HA, is exactly the same thing as railroading, which is commonly accepted as bad practice. "But, you see, your victory was really Asmodeus' plan all along."

Asmodeus is the writer-and-DM equivalent of munchkinism.

I take it that you've either not played Diablo (the original) or didn't like it, considering that's pretty much the plotline. But here's the thing. It's still fun (at least for me and a lot of other people). Do you know why? Because journeys can be fun even if the destination turns out to be horrible. Sure, there are people who would absolutely hate the fact that their great victory wasn't actually a victory, but there are also people who wouldn't care, just because they had fun along the way.

[Grey Paladin]

Senrath:
Look at it this way: The evil Pantheon mostly hates each other, but they all hate Asmodeus for being a Magnificent Bastard and want him dead.

The Good Pantheon, despite often disagreeing with each other, all want Asmodeus dead because without him the lower planes would collapse.

Different legends all claim Asmodeus, alone, fought off Demons (I never understood how that makes sense), Chaos, and The Far Realms, all these primal, powerful forces want him dead (if indeed they are capable of wanting anything)

Yet he isn't.

[senrath]

Senrath:
Look at it this way: The evil Pantheon mostly hates each other, but they all hate Asmodeus for being a Magnificent Bastard and want him dead.

The Good Pantheon, despite often disagreeing with each other, all want Asmodeus dead because without him the lower planes would collapse.

Different legends all claim Asmodeus, alone, fought off Demons (I never understood how that makes sense), Chaos, and The Far Realms, all these primal, powerful forces want him dead (if indeed they are capable of wanting anything)

Yet he isn't.

Yes, but considering that, DM dependent, you can essentially become gods (or possibly stronger than gods) once you reach certain points in epic progression, although you might not be able to kill the guy, you could give him a run for his money.

Not to mention that (again, DM dependent) as far as I can see, there is almost nothing stopping players with insanely massive Spellcraft modifiers from making an epic spell that says something along the lines of "Asmodeus ceases to exist. No save."

[Reel On, Love]

I take it that you've either not played Diablo (the original) or didn't like it, considering that's pretty much the plotline. But here's the thing. It's still fun (at least for me and a lot of other people). Do you know why? Because journeys can be fun even if the destination turns out to be horrible. Sure, there are people who would absolutely hate the fact that their great victory wasn't actually a victory, but there are also people who wouldn't care, just because they had fun along the way.
I don't play Diablo for the *storyline*, no. But a hack-and-slash computer game's storyline is one thing. I expect a lot better out of my tabletop games. Heck, I even expect a lot better out of games like Baldur's Gate.



Senrath:
Look at it this way: The evil Pantheon mostly hates each other, but they all hate Asmodeus for being a Magnificent Bastard and want him dead.

The Good Pantheon, despite often disagreeing with each other, all want Asmodeus dead because without him the lower planes would collapse.

Different legends all claim Asmodeus, alone, fought off Demons (I never understood how that makes sense), Chaos, and The Far Realms, all these primal, powerful forces want him dead (if indeed they are capable of wanting anything)

Yet he isn't.

Then he should quite manifestly be busy with staying not dead and laying plans and contingencies and defenses on the scale of pantheons and primal forces. He should not be interacting with the mortal PCs in any way, shape, or form that's still fundamentally him. The CR 27 Aspect? That's fine. Direct plans for the PCs? Lame.

[Illiterate Scribe]

My advice would be to move to Celestia, preferably on the sixth layer (that is to say, the hardest one to get to aside from the uninhabited seventh), and never ever leave for the rest of your lives. Make sure you're Lawful Good, and try to find some way to anchor your soul there when you eventually die so that Asmodeus can't claim your soul as recompense for the theft, or some such ploy to inflict eternal torment on you. It's not failsafe, but it's probably the best chance you have.

Right underneath the Spire would also work. It would abnegate all your casting, but you're with some of the most skilled anti-deity characters ever, and Asmodeus' attack will be lessened. In fact, this would probably be your best means of attack - Planar Bubble or Precipitate Complete Breach to the Spire, thus negating any of Asmodeus' abilities, and try your luck with the warblade.


It won't. The only way it would protect them is if nothing they encountered had any means of sending communication anywhere.

KILL THEM BEFORE THEY CAN REACT.

Ahem, did my violent side just rise up then?


The Good Pantheon, despite often disagreeing with each other, all want Asmodeus dead because without him the lower planes would collapse.

No. This is precisely why they want Asmodeus alive, and is why they signed the pact primeval in the first place.

Different legends all claim Asmodeus, alone, fought off Demons (I never understood how that makes sense), [/quote]

Only a very small number can actually muster to fight at any one time - indeed, an infinitely small fraction.


Chaos,

Like demons, but more so.


and The Far Realms,

As soon as the Far Realms make an incursion anywhere, they are pretty much by default everyone's business. Plus, their ability to do stuff outside the far realms is very limited.

[Kalirren]

I think the consensus here is that Asmodeus, the master manipulator, is the wrong villain -for a one-shot.- His plans are too extensive, and a one-shot won't be able to unravel them and unweave them successfully.

Change the context up a little bit, make it an extended campagin, get other powers in on it to tell the PC's what they know, ad the PC's could quite potentially unravel and proceed to unweave a substantial chunk of Asmodeus's plans, over time, while keeping a unduly low profile. That preserves the integrity of Asmodeus's character without railroading, without stretching, and without resulting in undue direct involvement between Great Cosmic Forces and the PC's.

As it stands in the OP's scenario, though, I'm still quite sure the PC's are severely disadvantaged.

[Grey Paladin]

Senrath:
Not if Asmodeus did so first :smalltongue:

Counter cheese with cheese, and remember who had planned their revenge since the dawn of time.

Reel On, Love:
This is utterly true. . . as long as they aren't in the same plane of existence as his Head (An old 'epileptic tree' theory says that the only way to kill Asmodeus is to make him eat a truly innocent creature), and are not trying to steal something most of the Thieving pantheon is after.

[senrath]

Senrath:
Not if Asmodeus did so first :smalltongue:

Counter cheese with cheese, and remember who had planned their revenge since the dawn of time.


Like I said, it was DM dependent. Of course, why would Asmodeus make a spell that would make him cease to exist? (sorry, couldn't help that)

[Grey Paladin]

Like I said, it was DM dependent. Of course, why would Asmodeus make a spell that would make him cease to exist? (sorry, couldn't help that)
So you would make this post and I would respond to it, triggering the final contingency that will finally avenge Asmodeus and destroy all of creation out of spite.


Illiterate Scribe: Arm wrestling Cthulu, kicking off demons, and keeping Limbo from overwhelming Law while the Creators were having their delightful celestial tea break is still pretty impressive if you ask me.

Also, remember Asmodeus is far older then most of the gods so it was pretty much he and the Creators versus all the forces of entropy.

[Reel On, Love]

Reel On, Love:
This is utterly true. . . as long as they aren't in the same plane of existence as his Head (An old 'epileptic tree' theory says that the only way to kill Asmodeus is to make him eat a truly innocent creature), and are not trying to steal something most of the Thieving pantheon is after.

No excuses. He's busy paying attention to the far realms. Godly thieves are limited in what they can do because they have to *be gods*, deal with their enemies, etc. I'm not suggesting the PCs should be able to break in, steal a major artifact, keep it, and waltz away, but they should be able to do something that isn't Just What Asmodeus Wanted and hinder him in some way--otherwise, don't run the adventure.

[AslanCross]

Well, they could use disguises, but after the 100th telepathic communication consisting of "Help, we're under attack by 4 devils we've never seen before and we don't know who they work for! They have strange powers normally not found in our ranks!" I think Asmodeus might get suspicious.

I do think that being able to get through the first eight layers of Hell unbidden will let Asmodeus know. He may not know who is causing all the trouble or when they are coming, but the effects of their actions should be able to cause him to think something is wrong.

And managing the Nine Hells, the piece of the multiverse that you conned out of the LG deities is a matter of cosmic significance. Asmodeus has kept the Nine Hells under his boot heel for so long that I'm pretty sure any un-hellish turmoil that's going on past the first layer is going to reach him.

I agree that the "Asmodeus wins no matter what" ending is pretty bad. It's anticlimactic and is not rewarding. Still, I wouldn't put it past his dialogue to attempt to convince the PCs that they're playing right into his hands. He might also offer them jobs as spies in the Prime Material.

Anyway, Asmodeus is likely to fight on his terms, and if the circumstances say otherwise, he will try to tip the scales in his favor. He can summon the aspects of other archfiends, and is likely to do so. If I were to run the encounter Asmodeus would summon an aspect of Glasya and two pit fiends (or if Asmodeus feels they need to learn a lesson in cooperation, Mephistopheles, Levistus and Baalzebul.) He'd be protected---no question that by the time the PCs get into Fortress Nessus, he'd be aware and ready. He'll cast his protective spells before they get there.

...I don't think the PCs would be going to steal the original Pact Primeval, right? Because FC2 mentions that a copy of the Pact Primeval is to remain on Baator at all costs, and if it is to be taken from its place...well, let's say that is a matter of great concern to Asmodeus.

[SadisticFishing]

Remember, the Pact Primeval is not just Asmodeus' item. It's Lawful, Good, and Evil. In fact, it's basically the pinnacle of all three.

Unless the entire party is strongly chaotic, it could be VERY unlike that they would take it.

Other than that, Asmodeus is a kind of odd fight, he has a ridiculous number of abilities, but at that level it's okay.

Personally, I would have the group have to run through all the layers, as quickly as possible, killing all the leaders. Have some sort of plot-reason that they're distracted, such as a Far Realm attack or a Demon assault, or something to do with Slaadi...

Anyways, my plan would be, to run this sesson: They fight all 9 Aspects, one after another, with some Pit Fiends/Paeliryon (sp's), even an Assassin Devil/Assassin or two. Make it a two-shot, and finish off with fighting Asmodeus's aspect.

[Frosty]

Fighting Aspect of Glaysa and Asmodeus would be pretty toutgh...and fun! Maybe they'll fight all but Glaysa's aspect (can't find her) and when they get to the palace, both Aspects are there.

I also like advanced Pleasure Devils. Taking control of PCs is fun.

[Grey Paladin]

Reel On, Love: What I am saying is that the PCs would need an equivalent force backing them up, like an Old One (perhaps The Hunter?) or Ao, Asmodeus can be beaten, but once he is, what is left to be done, really?
you have defeated one of the primal forces of the universe, one Ao- if he cared enough- would have to struggle to defeat and would be as likely to lose as to win, sure, its a good way to end a campaign, but I can't think of anything challenging left to do after that if you like keeping a certain contiunity between your games- at that point Exalted seems like a gritty realistic low powered setting.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Nah, Ao's the least of your worries. Expect Sigil to be a very dangerous place (lol mazed), and, soon enough, the friggin' World Serpent's gonna come a'knockin'. Unless, that is, you take on Asmodeus' mantle ...

[Animefunkmaster]

"Real life sucks! I can't kill god!!!!"

Aren't you happy you play games with the premise of: "No matter how powerfull someone is there is still a slight hope of sucess."

It would be pointless to have beings that win all the time, it would be like playing a game of chess and starting in checkmate. Its all about having fun, its no fun if there is an impossibility of sucess.

[Emperor Tippy]

To the OP: It depends on how cheap the players (specifically the Incantatrix) are allowed to be.

I could solo the entire GreyHawk Parthenon at level 17 with the right Incantatrix build.

-----
Before you enter hell the wizard Shapechanges into a Zodar. You then use your wish SU to wish for a CL 1280 scroll of gate. Shapechange into an (a demon or devil whos name I forget) and use your Item Use EX ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use the scroll. Gate in 16 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons. Order them to follow all your orders for the next 1,280 rounds. Order them to lower all their defenses and not resist any spells you cast on them in any way. Cast a Chained Mind Rape to make them all perfectly loyal to you. Order them to return to your current location as soon as the gate spell it over. Wait for the Gate spell to end. All 16 dragons come back the next round and are permanently loyal to you.

They are all CL 38 Sorcerers with Epic Spell Casting. Break out the epic spellcasting fun. When I'm done with that Asmodeus won't stand a chance of surviving.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Of course all the Pitfiends with Wish 1/year are unable to do similar Wishing feats or simply reversing the PC Wish.

[Reel On, Love]

Reel On, Love: What I am saying is that the PCs would need an equivalent force backing them up, like an Old One (perhaps The Hunter?) or Ao, Asmodeus can be beaten, but once he is, what is left to be done, really?
you have defeated one of the primal forces of the universe, one Ao- if he cared enough- would have to struggle to defeat and would be as likely to lose as to win, sure, its a good way to end a campaign, but I can't think of anything challenging left to do after that if you like keeping a certain contiunity between your games- at that point Exalted seems like a gritty realistic low powered setting.

I'm not talking about beating Asmodeus. I'm talking about doing something on the mortal scale that hurts or inconveniences him.

Edit: also note how Ao *occasionally* intereferes with the gods, and pretty much never with PCs (sure, he sanctions ascensions, but that's it). That ought to be Asmodeus' behavior, too. Instead, Asmodeus is simultaneously a cosmic power apparently on par with Ao (aka Infinitely Powerful) and small-scale enough to care about stuff in the Hells or the material plane!

[Emperor Tippy]

Of course all the Pitfiends with Wish 1/year are unable to do similar Wishing feats or simply reversing the PC Wish.

Not really. Once you get epic magic Wish is small cheese. Not even a minor inconvenience.

[Grey Paladin]

Reel on, Love: Every single good act performed takes Asmodeus one step back in his plan, harming him is both easy and impossible.

Tippy: :smallsigh: RAW, Asmodeus (himself, not the Aspect) has no stats, he wishes you away the moment you enter his realm, much like The Lady of Pain.

Seriously, if you allow cheese like that the gods, given the fact they've [I]written[I] the rules you are exploiting, would exploit them way way way before your character was even born.

Anything you can do, they can do better.

[Citizen Joe]

Or maybe, just possibly, could I have a problem with it because it's nothing more than a blunt "you lose" card? DM Fiat, Asmodeus Always Wins! So why include him in adventures, then? Ao could always win, too, but he's reserved for a very occasional plot device.

Having an NPC who ACTUALLY WINS, NO MATTER WHAT, HA HA, is exactly the same thing as railroading, which is commonly accepted as bad practice. "But, you see, your victory was really Asmodeus' plan all along." Basically, Asmodeus is the writer-and-DM equivalent of munchkinism.



No, it doesn't have to be a "You Lose" Card... although there was a Games Workshop game called Talisman where the end game was hidden ala clue. When you get there, you flip the card to see what you win. One of the 'win' cards was "the void" where you just die... any way you don't have to lose. And you CAN affect things. But Asmodeus can always work what you have done into his plans.

Now, if you REALLY want to win without Mo winning, you have to take a compromise where you accept that the journey is its own reward and not the destination. So when you get there, clear the room, have full access to the Pact... just leave a little postit note saying "Sorry we missed you, we'll be back later"... then walk out. That would throw off Mo more than anything else. Maybe leave one of his cigars burning in an ashtray.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Tippy: :smallsigh: RAW, Asmodeus (himself, not the Aspect) has no stats, he wishes you away the moment you enter his realm, much like The Lady of Pain.

In that case, if he is so omnipotent, then how come he doesn't rule the universe? What about those whom Asmodeus conquered Hell from? What about those seeking to take it from him? Why are they not 'wished away'?

Also, the Lady of Pain does have stats; she was statted out as a 'LN humanoid female'. As such, the WotC charop boards have a build that, barring any particular and specified immunity to it, can kill her.

Also, I *think* that I have a theory of how to kill the Lady of Pain, but that's another thread.

[Mewtarthio]

The OP already stated "no candles of invocation or anything like that" (ie no cheese) and explicitly stated that gate doesn't work.

I have an entirely different question: Why are they even trying to steal the Pact Primeval?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have an entirely different question: Why are they even trying to steal the Pact Primeval?

For the lulz?

[Eldariel]

It's worth noting that a divine mind works entirely differently from a mortal one so it's possible for mortals to outwit a divinity simply by using processes not available to a divinity that's more or less an embodiment of an idea rather than a working mind. One of the better examples of that is the whole Dragonlance-stuff of Raistlin tricking Takhisis. Of course, Takhisis is nothing compared to Asmodeus, but still, that shows the whole concept of divine mind, no matter how intelligent and wise, not working like a mortal one.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Also, the expedient of working entirely in a time stop allows you to circumvent him, or indeed anything else from detecting you or any of your plans.

[Grey Paladin]

Illiterate Scribe: I was just demonstrating to Tippy the futility of attempting to cheese the gods by following the RAW. .

Asmodeus can only 'wish away' beings in his realm, as to why he hasn't taken over the multiverse? no one knows, likely the same reason The Far Realms didn't close this tiny gap yet.

And if they indeed gave her stats, its their mistake, her original entry mentions, specifically under 'attacks', a long description of her looking at you while you are unable to move and slowly melt out of reality, no mechanics in sight. (BTW I'd love to hear your theory about tLoP, if you aren't going to post it PM it to me)

[Illiterate Scribe]

BTW I'd love to hear your theory about tLoP, if you aren't going to post it PM it to me

I'll post it here tomorrow; it's wildly conjecture-based, revolves around fluff rather than background, but I think it's a little neat, and wraps up some loose ends. It does leave her with a weakness, but it's one that is neatly out of reach. Ahem.

[Frosty]

Bah, I'm sure if the Nameless One leveled up some more he could beat her...eventually :p

[AslanCross]

In that case, if he is so omnipotent, then how come he doesn't rule the universe? What about those whom Asmodeus conquered Hell from? What about those seeking to take it from him? Why are they not 'wished away'?


He is functionally omnipotent in his domain only. He's the paragon of Lawful Evil and depending on your cosmology, the Lawful Evil force of the universe.

Depending on what source you read (FC2 being the most current), Hell was awarded to Asmodeus on contract via the Pact Primeval, as a place to do the nasty business of punishment for those who violate the principle of Law. The Lawful Good gods didn't read the fine print, and so let him do whatever he wanted.

Ironically, Asmodeus in 3.5 is incredibly powerful and yet isn't a deity. I mean, Tiamat lounges in her own litterbox on Asmodeus's doorstep. Hextor got his powers from the Archfiends.

And why doesn't he just wish away Mephistopheles and the others who've been struggling to unseat him?

Their struggling amuses him, would be my guess.

[Hal]

I have no idea what everyone is talking about (being as familiar with D&D cosmology as one can be owning the PHB and DMG), but this kind of stuff is exactly what I started playing D&D for. Invading Hell and thwarting cosmic beings of incredible power?

OP, do you have an open slot in your game? :smallbiggrin:

[Solo]

At least in Planescape, Asmodeus is the source of Law, Punishment, and some theorize, all evil. while not on the level of the creators of the universe (whoever they are, no one is really sure) he was amongst their first (and most powerful) creations in all of existence, conjured to guard the world of mortals. some say that he was to guard it from demons though that hardly makes sense, others claim he was to keep the world from being overwhelmed by Limbo's 'Allfather' rift and Chaospawns, the third 'common' theory, and my favorite, claims that he was to keep the multiverse, a tiny abnormality in the Far Realms, from being reclaimed.

For a reason unknown to all but the most ancient of the gods Asmodeus was one day banished from the Upper Planes and the mortal world he so lovingly took care of and cast down into the then desolated wasteland now known as the Lower Planes, his crash shaped the terrain and the blood from the cursed wound the Creators have inflicted upon him corrupted it.

Until this day his twisted, snakelike (and supposedly endless) body lays in the deepest levels of what is now known as the Nine Hells of Baator, stretching through all of the lower planes, bleeding the River Styx, until this day he hasn't forgotten, until this day he is plotting his revenge upon all of existence for taking his beloved world from him and corrupting his form

Anyone repeating that story about the nature of Asmodeus disappear 24 hours later never to be seen again, no exceptions.



If everyone who tells the story dies.... how does it get around in the first place?


It is possible the story was invented by Asmodeus himself to make himself seem more powerful.

Dun Dun DUN!

[CASTLEMIKE]

-----
Before you enter hell the wizard Shapechanges into a Zodar. You then use your wish SU to wish for a CL 1280 scroll of gate. Shapechange into an (a demon or devil whos name I forget) and use your Item Use EX ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use the scroll. Gate in 16 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons. Order them to follow all your orders for the next 1,280 rounds. Order them to lower all their defenses and not resist any spells you cast on them in any way. Cast a Chained Mind Rape to make them all perfectly loyal to you. Order them to return to your current location as soon as the gate spell it over. Wait for the Gate spell to end. All 16 dragons come back the next round and are permanently loyal to you.

They are all CL 38 Sorcerers with Epic Spell Casting. Break out the epic spellcasting fun. When I'm done with that Asmodeus won't stand a chance of surviving.

In a game where this tactic would work why can't the numerous Pitfiends in Hell who outnumber the PC do the same thing with a wondrous item or something equally bad to the PCs with their Wish 1/year?

[Frosty]

I have no idea what everyone is talking about (being as familiar with D&D cosmology as one can be owning the PHB and DMG), but this kind of stuff is exactly what I started playing D&D for. Invading Hell and thwarting cosmic beings of incredible power?

OP, do you have an open slot in your game? :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, it's not PbP :smallsigh:

And Pit Fiends don't do this because they don't visit the CharOp boards?

[Emperor Tippy]

And Pit Fiends don't do this because they don't visit the CharOp boards?

Neither do I. Gate Rape is my own innovation.

[Citizen Joe]

Neither do I. Gate Rape is my own innovation.
Have you ever actually had a DM allow that?

[Xefas]

As a question only slightly on topic, has anyone here ever used the Gates of Hell third party book in actual play?

Its got a CR 81 Asmodeus with Salient Divine Abilities in it. Just another Avatar, though :smallfrown:

[AslanCross]

As a question only slightly on topic, has anyone here ever used the Gates of Hell third party book in actual play?

Its got a CR 81 Asmodeus with Salient Divine Abilities in it. Just another Avatar, though :smallfrown:

The true Asmodeus in that book is an overdeity. :smalleek: I think it would do well in a campaign where there really are no evil deities apart from the archfiends.

[Da Beast]

My only guides to the 3.X cosmology and Asmodues are the Manuel of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness so I was wondering where are you guys getting all this stuff? These things about Asmodeus holding reality, which is just a little bubble in the Far Realm, together. I've never seen anything to support this so I have to wonder if these things are coming from a source that's campaign specific or if it's even 3.X.

It looks to me like Asmodeus is nothing more than a really powerful (but not godly powerful) and extremely clever devil. And if that's the case I don't see why the PCs shouldn't be able to hinder, or maybe even out right kill him, in some way. It shouldn't be easy; it should probably be the hardest thing they've ever done. But why not? Level 20 characters ought to be some of the biggest, baddest dudes around (provided you don't use epic rules) and making them auto fail is just lame.


If everyone who tells the story dies.... how does it get around in the first place?


It is possible the story was invented by Asmodeus himself to make himself seem more powerful.

Dun Dun DUN!

I like this idea. it plays into Asmodeus being some great schemer, ties up all the loose ends in his mythology, and puts him on a level where the PCs can still oppose him.

Lastly, what is the Pact Primeval?

[Xefas]

My only guides to the 3.X cosmology and Asmodues are the Manuel of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness so I was wondering where are you guys getting all this stuff?

Your information is kind of out of date. Those are 3.0 books. We're talking about the stuff in the Fiendish Codex II, which is 3.5.

[Khanderas]

Wow, is that ever pointless.


Why do game writers even bother with this kind of "haha, Asmodeus wins period, no matter what" crap? It's as bad as the stats for 7th Sea NPCs in the Avalon book (which literally consist of "always succeeds" in a couple of cases).

Why even have Asmodeus? Just to yank players around? "Ha ha, Asmodeus PLANNED IT ALL ALONG. Lulz!"
Maybe Asmodeus is just a plot device. Maybe he is not ment to be killed by a whipppersnapper that lived perhaps 30 years.
Perhaps a being that have survived and winning for untold eons in HELL should be nigh impossible to win against.
This isnt Diablo (the game from Blizzard).

It saddens me that you find it pointless with an encounter that you cannot kill arbitrary.

[Frosty]

Note that we are still talking about killing his ASPECT, which is perfectly within the realm of mortal power to take down.

[Reel On, Love]

Maybe Asmodeus is just a plot device. Maybe he is not ment to be killed by a whipppersnapper that lived perhaps 30 years.
Perhaps a being that have survived and winning for untold eons in HELL should be nigh impossible to win against.
This isnt Diablo (the game from Blizzard).

It saddens me that you find it pointless with an encounter that you cannot kill arbitrary.

Maybe he IS just a plot device.
Blatant plot devices are bad. Especially when they're NPCs.

Did you read the rest of my posts? I'm not suggesting that players should be able to kill Asmodeus. I'm saying that if he's so far beyond them he's just a DM-Fiat Plot Device, then he shouldn't be coming into direct conflict with them. Having everything involving Asmodeus end in "and that was his plan all along! Dance, meat puppets, dance!!" is bad module design, writing, DMing, whatever.

I didn't say the players should be able to kill Asmodeus. I'm saying they should be able to win a small (on the cosmic scale) victory, as mortal actors on a scane too fine for him to involve himself with personally (although one of his Aspects is certainly a fair challenge).


What IS it with people and assuming that everyone disagrees with them is some kind of kill-happy munchkin?

[Frosty]

They probably don't read through all the posts before responding.

[Cuddly]

Just teleport a sword into his heart.

Worked for defeating Tiamat.

[Khanderas]

Maybe he IS just a plot device.
Blatant plot devices are bad. Especially when they're NPCs.

Did you read the rest of my posts? I'm not suggesting that players should be able to kill Asmodeus. I'm saying that if he's so far beyond them he's just a DM-Fiat Plot Device, then he shouldn't be coming into direct conflict with them. Having everything involving Asmodeus end in "and that was his plan all along! Dance, meat puppets, dance!!" is bad module design, writing, DMing, whatever.

I didn't say the players should be able to kill Asmodeus. I'm saying they should be able to win a small (on the cosmic scale) victory, as mortal actors on a scane too fine for him to involve himself with personally (although one of his Aspects is certainly a fair challenge).


What IS it with people and assuming that everyone disagrees with them is some kind of kill-happy munchkin?
Well True. I started to read the thread, came to your post and made my post, and then kept reading... Thought I would edit my post to seem less harsh, but I was not fast enough.
Now I have read it all, and your objection is mainly you dont like the NPC's, any NPC to be a "PC's lose" card, as stated above, the objection is not so much of his unkillable status.

However thats where our agreement ends. I find it to be perfectly justified to have a NPC plot device, chained and confined to Hell, that if challenged in his own domain would simply win. The PC's may win small, lose some or lose everything but in the end Asmodeus would be a magnificent bastard.
If he is smart and powerful enough to stand up to the gods, all of hell and Far realms, a band of mismatched outcasts and oddballs, who lived not a 1/10 000 th of the time Asmodeus has, should not have a decent chance to face his plans.

And if the NPC's are not plot devices, what would ? That leaves only Items and PC's. While the powers he has is almost immesurable, he is chained and confined and quite likly to plot escape (thought that may be a rumor he himself has spread). One of the 777 777 777 keys needed to let him out IS to have a breach of contract perpertrated, a beach of contract being the theaft of the artifact mentioned in this thread. So perhaps he made it juuust hard enough for the PCs to get away with it and some nice purple lootz, but A. don't care about that. The artifact will be returned to him but the attempt of theft of it unlocks one more lock on his way to release.
That release is untold milennia away (so the players wont have to deal really), but he is patient.

That way, Asmodeus wins. And challenges the PC's just well enough (the theft is a breach of contract, but not guarding it properly would be a breach on HIS part, so it IS well guarded), PCs win by getting the mission done, getting loot and fame and women. The loot matters little if at all to Asmodeus, his goal is his freedom.
Asmodeus might still have to keep up appearances, and have the PC's hunted for a while (up to the DM), but in the end he is pleased.


Oh before I finish this way too long post, you say the PC's should win a small battle, too insignificant for Asmodeus to care/notice, but a moral victory nonetheless.
Well... stealing the artifact in his own home would not be something I would call too insignificant to notice.

[AslanCross]

My only guides to the 3.X cosmology and Asmodues are the Manuel of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness so I was wondering where are you guys getting all this stuff? These things about Asmodeus holding reality, which is just a little bubble in the Far Realm, together. I've never seen anything to support this so I have to wonder if these things are coming from a source that's campaign specific or if it's even 3.X.

It looks to me like Asmodeus is nothing more than a really powerful (but not godly powerful) and extremely clever devil. And if that's the case I don't see why the PCs shouldn't be able to hinder, or maybe even out right kill him, in some way. It shouldn't be easy; it should probably be the hardest thing they've ever done. But why not? Level 20 characters ought to be some of the biggest, baddest dudes around (provided you don't use epic rules) and making them auto fail is just lame.



I like this idea. it plays into Asmodeus being some great schemer, ties up all the loose ends in his mythology, and puts him on a level where the PCs can still oppose him.

Lastly, what is the Pact Primeval?

It's from Fiendish Codex II. The Pact Primeval is a deal between Asmodeus and the Lawful Good deities, back from when he still worked for them as an angel. It basically allows him to exercise a lot of authority to fight chaos (mostly the demons) and punish mortals who defy divine law. Since his work got pretty brutal (and close contact with the demons was making Asmodeus and his lackeys more and more like the demons), the LG deities got sick of him and told him to go away. He only said he was doing his job, and used this as an opportunity to propose an agreement, written up in the Pact Primeval. It asked for his own divine realm, where he could exercise unlimited authority to punish sinners, essentially doing the lawful good deities' work for them. A side note here was that he could siphon off the prisoners' souls to empower himself and his lackeys. The LG deities agreed.

Eventually, the LG deities were horrified at what the Hells had become, and questioned Asmodeus why he was deliberately tempting mortals to sin so that he could empower himself (and eventually attain true godhood). He only shoved the Pact Primeval in their faces and told them to read the fine print.

There are three original copies of the Pact Primeval: one in Celestia, one in Mechanus, and one in a well-guarded citadel in the bottom of the Nine Hells. The Pact radiates purest law, good and evil at the same time, and it drives lesser fiends insane just by having them too close. If Asmodeus's copy is removed from the citadel it's kept in...let's just say very bad things will happen. Not only for Asmodeus, but probably for the rest of the multiverse.

The third-party book Gates of Hell makes Asmodeus far, far, more powerful than even FC2's depiction.

[Illiterate Scribe]

The third-party book Gates of Hell makes Asmodeus far, far, more powerful than even FC2's depiction.

Not only that, but Dicefreaks ran him like some sort of DM fiat machine. Let alone all those abilities with DC 99 saves, but, even if you did get past them with careful planning - and you most certainly could - Darkwind and co. were like 'he has entered your time stop lolz'.

'Er, why?'

'hes Asmodeus lol. Take 3dbillion wis damage no save. How dare you find a way to attack him.'

So yeah, fairly unpleasant board, but, with his Dicefreak stats, he still is eminently defeatable, at least in an adventure, even if it's a very slim chance, and provided that the DM's mildly sensible (Asmodeus is not subject to the nullifying effects of the spire, no matter what you say).

The problem was actually getting to him in the first place, since he's hiding in Nessus.

[Xefas]

'he has entered your time stop lolz'.

'Er, why?'

'hes Asmodeus lol. Take 3dbillion wis damage no save. How dare you find a way to attack him.'


"I cast Ray of Frost"
"Bah, I have Protection from Elements on. I'm not effected at all."
"No, that is the unfair! No one should be able to stop a 0th level spell!"
"But I'm using a 3rd level spell..."

"I cast Time Stop"
"I'mInUrTimeStopsTakinAwayYourWinButtonz"
"No, that is the unfair! No one should be able to stop a 9th level spell!"
"But I'm using a Salient Divine Ability..."

[Khanderas]

"I cast Ray of Frost"
"Bah, I have Protection from Elements on. I'm not effected at all."
"No, that is the unfair! No one should be able to stop a 0th level spell!"
"But I'm using a 3rd level spell..."

"I cast Time Stop"
"I'mInUrTimeStopsTakinAwayYourWinButtonz"
"No, that is the unfair! No one should be able to stop a 9th level spell!"
"But I'm using a Salient Divine Ability..."
Good point.
I agreed with the general idea before, but I found this to be a convincing argument nonetheless.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Not really. There are clearly laid out limits to what an SDA can do, and stomping all over the rules isn't one of them. If you give Asmodeus the SDA:Do whatever the hell he wants, then yes, he can do that. But then we've returned to the 'he's an intractable plot device, lol' problem.

[Gorbash]

Just teleport a sword into his heart.

Worked for defeating Tiamat.

You win the internet. Here's a noose. Go hang yourself.


If everyone who tells the story dies.... how does it get around in the first place?

Dies after 24 hours... Plenty of time to retell it to someone else... And doom them for eternity.

[Xefas]

Not really. There are clearly laid out limits to what an SDA can do, and stomping all over the rules isn't one of them. If you give Asmodeus the SDA:Do whatever the hell he wants, then yes, he can do that. But then we've returned to the 'he's an intractable plot device, lol' problem.

How exactly is that different?

The rules for the 0th level spell, Ray of Frost say "You take 1d3 cold damage".
The rules for the 3rd level spell, Protection from Energy say "No, I don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of taking damage like your rules say, I take no damage. Hows about them apples?"

The rules for the 9th level spell, Time Stop say "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds".
The rules for Asmodeus' big Godly God Ability of Godly Godliness says "No, you don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of you being able to take free actions, you take no free actions. Hows about them apples?"

It's exactly the same principle.

[Citizen Joe]

How exactly is that different?

The rules for the 0th level spell, Ray of Frost say "You take 1d3 cold damage".
The rules for the 3rd level spell, Protection from Energy say "No, I don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of taking damage like your rules say, I take no damage. Hows about them apples?"

The rules for the 9th level spell, Time Stop say "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds".
The rules for Asmodeus' big Godly God Ability of Godly Godliness says "No, you don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of you being able to take free actions, you take no free actions. Hows about them apples?"

It's exactly the same principle.

Actually, that is much like the 'Three simple rules' that 4ed is using. So it has simple rules but lots of exceptions. Specifics trump general... and something else.

[Khanderas]

How exactly is that different?

The rules for the 0th level spell, Ray of Frost say "You take 1d3 cold damage".
The rules for the 3rd level spell, Protection from Energy say "No, I don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of taking damage like your rules say, I take no damage. Hows about them apples?"

The rules for the 9th level spell, Time Stop say "You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds".
The rules for Asmodeus' big Godly God Ability of Godly Godliness says "No, you don't. I overrule that rule. Instead of you being able to take free actions, you take no free actions. Hows about them apples?"

It's exactly the same principle.
Not to mention I don't see a problem with an entety that can touch and feel things without being in the same room (often I see God X can touch, hear and smell anything at a distance of 20 miles of Y) to also be able to NOT be put in stasis by a mortal caster.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Not to mention I don't see a problem with an entety that can touch and feel things without being in the same room (often I see God X can touch, hear and smell anything at a distance of 20 miles of Y) to also be able to NOT be put in stasis by a mortal caster.

Common misunderstanding about time stop. You're not putting anything in stasis, it's actually a personal buff speeding you up. Hence 'apparent time', etc.

Does Asmodeus have the capability to say - 'oh yeah, I don't like the fact that you have bull's strength on, and so, without any rules backing this up, it's gone'?

[Kioran]

Common misunderstanding about time stop. You're not putting anything in stasis, it's actually a personal buff speeding you up. Hence 'apparent time', etc.

Does Asmodeus have the capability to say - 'oh yeah, I don't like the fact that you have bull's strength on, and so, without any rules backing this up, it's gone'?

He could hijack your buff - you know, like share spells, but involuntarily. If both of you are sped up, your realtively speed hasn´t changed, meaning your wannabe-Batman-posterior just got pwned.

[Illiterate Scribe]

He could hijack your buff - you know, like share spells, but involuntarily. If both of you are sped up, your realtively speed hasn´t changed, meaning your wannabe-Batman-posterior just got pwned.

As far as I can see, he doesn't have any capability - at least, none that's written down. If he gets things that aren't written down, then, well, you're relying on fiat.

[Citizen Joe]

You should be careful using magic on other planes, particularly time affecting magics. Some planes handle time differently. And you'd look really stupid when you time stop and you actually freeze yourself in time permanently like a statue, forever gazing at the Pact Eternal as an eternal torment.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Does Asmodeus have the capability to say - 'oh yeah, I don't like the fact that you have bull's strength on, and so, without any rules backing this up, it's gone'?

Yes FC2. Page 73 as the undisputed master of Baator, Asmodeus can work nearly any magic within it's boundaries as an act of will.

[Xefas]

Does Asmodeus have the capability to say - 'oh yeah, I don't like the fact that you have bull's strength on, and so, without any rules backing this up, it's gone'?

Umm...can't you just cast Dispel Magic to get rid of Bull's Strength? Or any other personal buff for that matter? Why shouldn't Time Stop have a higher-level counter as well?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Umm...can't you just cast Dispel Magic to get rid of Bull's Strength? Or any other personal buff for that matter? Why shouldn't Time Stop have a higher-level counter as well?

Exactly - it needs a roll. When, pray tell, will you be dispelling the timestop? Especially since it would be cast before heading off to Baator.



You should be careful using magic on other planes, particularly time affecting magics. Some planes handle time differently. And you'd look really stupid when you time stop and you actually freeze yourself in time permanently like a statue, forever gazing at the Pact Eternal as an eternal torment.

Does Nessus affect time thus? Nooo ...


Yes FC2. Page 73 as the undisputed master of Baator, Asmodeus can work nearly any magic within it's boundaries as an act of will.

As reflected by his Godly Realm

Godly Realm
Each deity of rank 1 or higher has a location that serves as a workplace, personal residence, audience chamber, and sometimes as a retreat or fortress. A deity is at its most powerful within its godly realm. A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment. The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane).

Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers. A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.

In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.

A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.
Once a deity sets the conditions in its realm, they are permanent, though the deity can change them. As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes. Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them. During this time, the deity must spend 8 hours a day on the project. During the remaining 16 hours of each day, the deity can perform any action it desires, so long as it remains within the realm. The astral links, planar traits, and terrain remain unchanged until the labor is complete.


and Alter Reality

Alter Reality
Prerequisite
Cha 29.

Benefit
This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at least a standard action.

Notes
The deity can duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action. The duplicated spell has no material or XP component, and the DC of its saving throw (if one is allowed) is 20 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier.

The deity also can duplicate a spell with any metamagic feat (so long as the metamagic feat is available to characters of 20th level or lower). This use of the ability requires the deity to rest for 1 round for each level that the feat would normally add to the spell. It still takes a standard action to use this ability, so there is no point in using the ability to duplicate a quickened spell.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent. The rest requirement varies with the effect: 10 minutes per level of the effect times the number of subjects affected, 10 minutes per total Hit Dice of creatures affected, or 10 minutes per 10-foot cube affected. Use the highest applicable value.

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period), except that the items last one day per rank.

The deity also can create permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.

The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed..

So, he can muck us about inside his plane. No matter. We wait until he opens Hell's Mouth somewhere, enter timestop, greater teleport to Hell's Mouth, and lob through our means of attack. I'd say that covering him in Quintessence, thus excising him from time, would work.

[Khanderas]

Common misunderstanding about time stop. You're not putting anything in stasis, it's actually a personal buff speeding you up. Hence 'apparent time', etc.

Does Asmodeus have the capability to say - 'oh yeah, I don't like the fact that you have bull's strength on, and so, without any rules backing this up, it's gone'?
I had considered that, but thought since you are unable to affect other objects and creatures while in the time stop I thought of it as a stasis type.
Fair enough though that time stop increases your personal time, no worries.

I would go right back to mentioning his realm is fully bent to his will, is trapped beyond belief with contingencies on more contingencies and Asmodeus possessing deity ranks. A spell that is so common as a haste on speed that is known as time stop would be guarded against. How ? Don't ask me, I'm only mortal. But the contract he used to trick the gods would certainly be guarded against any mortal magic and problebly against most things a deity can do as well.

The Bull's strengh has already been adressed. But yeah, his domain, his rules. Greater dispel, no save, no escape. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Actually, it's definitely guarded against deities, but would Asmodeus really consider mortals a threat? I'd wager not so it's fully possible that there's nothing in place for weaklings.

[Grey Paladin]

Frosty: The Lady of Pain is theorized to be one of the old ones

To these who have asked: I am getting my info from Planescape (2E), to these who have asked- like any significantly powerful foe it is highly likely 3E dumbed him down into a level X bag of EXP.

Scribe:
You keep ignoring Asmodeus's Intelligence score and capabilities, as well as his Domain (Any time someone even thinks of breaking a Law, he knows).

Anything you have planned, he would have crafted a contingency for before you've even figured out how to execute it, any cheesy trick (if you allow them) you can think of, he has exploited before your culture's Pantheon were even born.

If cheese works, creatures infinitely smarter then you would have abused it to hell and back before you've ever thought of it- it is actually better for the players that cheese wouldn't exist because their opponents would be able to utilize it far better then they due to existing much longer.

Not to mention getting the Spellkey so your magic will work *AT ALL* for a realm like Nessus is an epic quest all on itself.

Eldariel:
Look, if you (likely possessing an INT score of around 10) have figured out mortals can do this, what's the chance a 60+ INT paranoid critter, the Incarnation of the alignment all lawyers share, a being that has existed before most gods, haven't figured it out and countered it?

[Ascension]

If cheese works, creatures infinitely smarter then you would have abused it to hell and back before you've ever thought of it-

So are you saying that Pun-Pun works for Asmodeus? :smallbiggrin:

I personally agree with the school of thought that beings like Her Serenity, Asmodeus, and the like, can and should remain statless. there's stil a reason for their existence even if you can't beat them... they exist so that you can avoid them. The Lady of Pain is there to keep epic wizards from saying "I'm gonna take over Sigil for the lulz!" "She" is there to keep the players from totally destroying the setting.

[Khanderas]

Actually, it's definitely guarded against deities, but would Asmodeus really consider mortals a threat? I'd wager not so it's fully possible that there's nothing in place for weaklings.
When mortals fancy themselves able to teleport / gate into his private sanctum and steal the contract he made with the gods... yes.
In the countless millenia he has worked and schemed virtually undefeated, he is very well aware that the small things can be the most important ones.

Heck how do we not know that one of the properties of his sanctum is "whenever a living mortal being enters, put him / her / it in stasis until I can get proper time to deal with the intruder". Then, since time stop apparantly is a haste boosted to heck, entering the sanctum will still Stasis the intruder by devine (local) law. Until Asmodeus walks up to the unfortunate soul, Greater-dispel-all-you-got (godversion) and starts the interrogation.
Mind you, Asmodeus is a busy godling, perhaps you will be in stasis for 10 000 years. Hopefully your mental faculties also were stasied, or you are in for a loong wait.

Now that is a SIMPLE defense I cracked up a minute. Asmodeus would do this and worse in the time he been around with an intellect far beyond me and you.

[Khanderas]

So are you saying that Pun-Pun works for Asmodeus? :smallbiggrin:

I personally agree with the school of thought that beings like Her Serenity, Asmodeus, and the like, can and should remain statless. there's stil a reason for their existence even if you can't beat them... they exist so that you can avoid them. The Lady of Pain is there to keep epic wizards from saying "I'm gonna take over Sigil for the lulz!" "She" is there to keep the players from totally destroying the setting.
Thank you. Atleast one more who "gets it"

[Grey Paladin]

I recall that the creator of the Lady has once said (and later denied he has ever said so due to fan backlash, but heh) that The Lady *is* Plot Device Incarnate, Either an Old One who found Reality somewhat charming and decided to keep it alive (much like a plant or a pet) or the creation of the Creators, a neutral force more powerful then any of them created to keep them from destroying Creation should one decide to rebel- no one really knows.

[Frosty]

If Asmodeus was only confronted by mere mortals, then yes. However, what's to say that other powerful divine forces aren't at work, lending their help tot he mortal heros? they couldn't directly get to the Pact themselves, bu they can give the mortals a layer or protection that makes most of the nastiest salient/divine crap not work on them. As in, Big A is away, and his Aspect actually has to use *gasp* mortal magic to try to stop the intruders because Pelor, Ehlonna, Kord, Baccob, and other deities decides to give divine protection to the PCs. Or hell, his Aspect has an epic Ruby Rod that does a ton of damage. The good ol' smack down is not beyond the Aspect.

Still epically difficult, and the PCs are racing against time to get to the Pact before Big A has time to get back to take care of this intrusion personally.

[CASTLEMIKE]

If Asmodeus was only confronted by mere mortals, then yes. However, what's to say that other powerful divine forces aren't at work, lending their help tot he mortal heros? they couldn't directly get to the Pact themselves, bu they can give the mortals a layer or protection that makes most of the nastiest salient/divine crap not work on them. As in, Big A is away, and his Aspect actually has to use *gasp* mortal magic to try to stop the intruders because Pelor, Ehlonna, Kord, Baccob, and other deities decides to give divine protection to the PCs. Or hell, his Aspect has an epic Ruby Rod that does a ton of damage. The good ol' smack down is not beyond the Aspect.

Still epically difficult, and the PCs are racing against time to get to the Pact before Big A has time to get back to take care of this intrusion personally.

It's your game as the DM. Mostly boils down to how Asmodeus is ranked in your campaign and which source books you are using and there are a lot of them.

Is he a Non-Power DR0 or just an Immortal, a DR1 Incarnate of Evil comparable to the BoED Incarnates of Good, a Demi-Power 1 - 5 (Dieties and Demigods), a Greater DR16+ or Over-Power DR21+? as one of the primal forces of law responsible for the creation of the D&D multiverse (Guide to Hell (One of the great secrets) GtH has gotten passing nods from quite a few later source books)? I favor the later.

His rank determines how effective other Powers will be interfering with his realm.

[Gorbash]

Frosty, I don't get you. You open a topic asking people for their opinion if the party *can* kill Aspect of Asmodeus, they give you 4 pages of reasons why they CAN'T do it, and then you go argue with us that they can... Why open the topic if you still think it's possible?

[Grey Paladin]

If Asmodeus was only confronted by mere mortals, then yes. However, what's to say that other powerful divine forces aren't at work, lending their help tot he mortal heros? they couldn't directly get to the Pact themselves, bu they can give the mortals a layer or protection that makes most of the nastiest salient/divine crap not work on them. As in, Big A is away, and his Aspect actually has to use *gasp* mortal magic to try to stop the intruders because Pelor, Ehlonna, Kord, Baccob, and other deities decides to give divine protection to the PCs. Or hell, his Aspect has an epic Ruby Rod that does a ton of damage. The good ol' smack down is not beyond the Aspect.

Still epically difficult, and the PCs are racing against time to get to the Pact before Big A has time to get back to take care of this intrusion personally.

Sounds good, let me suggest something:(nearly) all the gods, for once, united, would set up a trap of epic proportions to trick THE Trickster into, somehow, making him lower his defenses and leave the defense of Hell to his legions and Lords while he is off, of course, the moment the PCs manage to steal the Pact and flee to Sigil(after, one by one, conquering/facing each level of hell) and all the gods turn to destroy the now greatly weakened Asmodeus, reduced to a mere Greater Deity, . . their nature kicks in, the evil gods attempt to backstab their temporary allies, the Celestials do the same, and a big free-for-all breaks, Asmodeus uses the opportunity to flee back to his realm where hs is relatively safe, while he himself is now (compared to his previous form) pathetically weak, his old traps and contingencies are still up and prevent the gods from destroying him.

Asmodeus writes down four new names into his black list, and lays down in the deepest pits of hell, bidding his time before he will get his revenge upon the creators, the gods, and four adventurers . . .

[Frosty]

Frosty, I don't get you. You open a topic asking people for their opinion if the party *can* kill Aspect of Asmodeus, they give you 4 pages of reasons why they CAN'T do it, and then you go argue with us that they can... Why open the topic if you still think it's possible?

I was asking from a purely mechanical standpoint based on the statblock of his Aspect as printed in the FC2. Forget the crap about being a deity. Just assume it is random powerful monster encounter for the players. Do you think 4 level 20s could defeat that was my original question. All the other discussions going on was just a deviance from my original question. Granted, the discussion is fun, but it is not my original question.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Depends on how easy you make it for the PCs in Hell.

[Citizen Joe]

Properly optimized, some characters can have an effective level significantly higher than their stated level. Likewise, some players are boneheads while others are strategic geniuses. Once you start throwing around epic level characters it really is a crapshoot.

[Frosty]

Which is why I restrict levels to 20. I don't really do epic rules. Players will keep on getting bonus feats and lots of wealth instead of getting more levels. Possibly bonus skill points as well.

[BadJuJu]

Well you just said it:


The party has been in Asmodeus's domain with all his associated spies for several levels. In fact they have been presumably using materials from Hell in order to make their stuff. I don't see how Asmodeus could POSSIBLY NOT know about their presence. He probably put this crazy idea into one of the player's head from the start and they are just doing his dirty work, killing off various devils that he has a grudge against. I wouldn't even be shocked if, after getting the Pact and 'escaping' if all their carefully crafted items tainted them all. Perhaps they could even 'escape' to Celestia where they shortly discover that their lovely items act as an anchor for a gate so that Asmodeus can wage direct war on Celestia, striking deep in the heart of his enemy.

That is an awsome plot hook for a game.

[Zen Master]

Did you read the rest of my posts? I'm not suggesting that players should be able to kill Asmodeus. I'm saying that if he's so far beyond them he's just a DM-Fiat Plot Device, then he shouldn't be coming into direct conflict with them. Having everything involving Asmodeus end in "and that was his plan all along! Dance, meat puppets, dance!!" is bad module design, writing, DMing, whatever.


In my book, when going up against someone who is famously uber-intelligent, ancient beyond belief and powerful even when compared to Gods, heroes should be well aware of the very high risk of failure.

Naturally, the adventure itself should be designed to be challenging, but should plot a possible course to success.

Now, in all honesty, Asmodeus likely has planned everything from the outset. Planted the seeds of the plan in the minds of the pc's, to further some wicked plot he hatched himself.

However, the pc's need to discover this fact. Say they capture a mewling imp who overheard Asmodeus plotting it all, and confesses everything to save itself.

This discovery naturally needs to come too late. You cannot easily foil the plans of someone like Asmodeus.

So the final chapter of the adventure needs to look somewhat like this:

Asmodeus has tricked the pc's into stealing the Pact, because that will free him of the obligation he is under for at long as he holds it (figure out your own reason why this is desirable to him). When the Uberclock (which keeps all time in the multiverse) strikes twelve, the pact is officially void, since it is no longer in it's place. The only way to restore it in time is for one of the pc's to bring it back in person - but that will trap the unfortunate volunteer in the very heart of Baator, forever.

Tough luck. The pc's win, Asmodeus loses, but victory comes at appreciable cost. And what foiled Asmodeus was that he himself didn't count in self-sacrifice in his plans - something rather alien to him - thus giving the pc' an opening.

Now - that's not the greatest plot ever conceived, but it's just the bare bones.

[Arbitrarity]

Y'know, not having FC2, I can't say much about Asmodeus' Aspect.

But. At least it's not the dicefreaks "avatar" of the Overlord of Hell (or so sayeth the fluff). Because this thing (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf) is scary.

He may not be totally "defeats everything", but then again, he's also CR 81.

[GoC]

My advice would be to move to Celestia, preferably on the sixth layer (that is to say, the hardest one to get to aside from the uninhabited seventh), and never ever leave for the rest of your lives. Make sure you're Lawful Good, and try to find some way to anchor your soul there when you eventually die so that Asmodeus can't claim your soul as recompense for the theft, or some such ploy to inflict eternal torment on you. It's not failsafe, but it's probably the best chance you have.

Unless one of them gets to 21st level, gets epic spellcasting, goes back to the material plane and ascends to greater deity status in the 24 hours such things normally take. Epic Spellcasting is that broken.

[Frosty]

I guess that'd depend on how much kicking the crap out of Asmodeus's Aspect will give them in terms of xp.

I wonder what the PCs would want to do with the Ruby Rod of Power.

[Grey Paladin]

Unless one of them gets to 21st level, gets epic spellcasting, goes back to the material plane and ascends to greater deity status in the 24 hours such things normally take. Epic Spellcasting is that broken.

Thus the reason the gods would abuse it way before you and stop this from happening . . .

[GoC]

Thus the reason the gods would abuse it way before you and stop this from happening . . .

Which doesn't happen. Thus: divide by cow error.

[Frosty]

Cow? Are you saying there's some sort of secret power that cows have? that there is a secret demi-plane where the mightiest of cows are led by a cow royalty, waiting to wreck havoc on adventurers?

[CASTLEMIKE]

I wonder what the PCs would want to do with the Ruby Rod of Power.

They could make it personal by sticking it someplace the sun doesn't shine. (Possibly a cave on Mount Celestia)

[Eldritch_Ent]

Cow? Are you saying there's some sort of secret power that cows have? that there is a secret demi-plane where the mightiest of cows are led by a cow royalty, waiting to wreck havoc on adventurers?

I'm sorry Frosty, there is no cow level.

Second of all, since Asmodeus is epic, I'm sure he has "Spell Stowaway: Time Stop", among others.

Third, A lot of this argument just comes down to "How powerful is your Asmodeus?", as earlier stated. Since you apparently want your PC's to be able to strike a blow for good, (I'm with others saying character as a plot device is bad. Don't just say "Haha, it's what he wanted all along!"... That's metaplot railroading.), you should probably be able to let them get in without too much hassle. (Relatively speaking.)

But I digress. Finally, Since you're going by the level 27 avatar, I'd say he's fairly possible to beat with that team. (Though remember, ECL is meant to be a fair challange for a group of 4 for the same level, so they'll need some serious gear to bring them up to par. +7 Isn't even 50/50, IIRC +5 is a "You'll win... With 1 character alive with 1 hp left... If you're lucky.)

They could probably do it, though, if you let them have cheese.

[Frosty]

Well, I *am* giving them more than normal WBL, and they do have an Incantatrix. The spellthief is thinking about switching to a Crusader/Bard combination of some sort.

Maybe I should allow cohorts as well, although they may be liabilities. Still, Incantatrix cohorts to give you free metamagic? Yes please.


I'm sorry Frosty, there is no cow level.
Woot! someone else who remembers starcraft!

[Hal]

Y'know, not having FC2, I can't say much about Asmodeus' Aspect.

But. At least it's not the dicefreaks "avatar" of the Overlord of Hell (or so sayeth the fluff). Because this thing (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf) is scary.

He may not be totally "defeats everything", but then again, he's also CR 81.

While that's scary, this Wiki site (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating) with NPC encounters has some terrible NPCs statted out. Such as Bahamut, at CR 107.

They also have a Star Turtle statted out at something like CR 84 million. It's ridiculous. I'd love to know how they came up with that number.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Woot! someone else who remembers starcraft!

Is this another joke? I mean he are talking about the Master of Hell here.

[Frosty]

Yes, but the quote is a cheat from starcraft.

[Alleine]

IIRC, the deities that signed the Pact Primeval weren't all that interested in being intelligent and suspicious when dealing with Asmodeus. They had no reason to think he would turn Hell into what it was, after all, he HAD kept his word in everything he had done previously.

The reason Asmodeus has "thwarted" the gods all this time? They need him and they know it. Or rather, they want him and don't want to acknowledge it so they let him get away with his schemes. If Asmodeus and his ilk just randomly poofed out of existence, demons would have a field day that initiated the beginning of the end for the universe. The gods of Law don't want that to happen, and they also don't want to have to begin fighting the demons themselves when there is someone already doing it.


As for the OP: you might wanna make it clear that its a BAD thing for pretty much everyone to remove the PP from Nessus, but if the PC's are intelligent and prepared they totally ought to be able to put up at least a good fight against the Aspect.

[senrath]

Yes, but the quote is a cheat from starcraft.

It's a cheat from Starcraft, but it is a reference to Diablo.

[Gorbash]

Although, cow level actually exists...

[Frosty]

Although, cow level actually exists...

In Diablo?

[FlyMolo]

While that's scary, this Wiki site (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating) with NPC encounters has some terrible NPCs statted out. Such as Bahamut, at CR 107.

They also have a Star Turtle statted out at something like CR 84 million. It's ridiculous. I'd love to know how they came up with that number.

That is truly the best thing I've seen. 201 thousandHD? Yes please.

And with 201 thousand hd, Plus a silly number of templates.... welll. 84 million is a little low. But at that level, there's really no point. Anything likely to get hit by A'Tuin is basically a planet.

[Eldritch_Ent]

In Diablo?

Diablo 2- Beat the game, go back to that difficulty, mix Wirt's Leg and tome of "town gate" in teh cube. Voila, cowlevel

[Agrippa]

Y'know, not having FC2, I can't say much about Asmodeus' Aspect.

But. At least it's not the dicefreaks "avatar" of the Overlord of Hell (or so sayeth the fluff). Because this thing (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gth669h/TGoH/TGoH9.pdf) is scary.

He may not be totally "defeats everything", but then again, he's also CR 81.

You should wait for Dicefreaks Demogorgon. In terms of power he's the Asmodeus of the Abyss. He just lacks the authority. Then you the Seventh Virture, Gabriel and Sanoi. Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, respectively.

[Frosty]

Really, anything over CR 40 might just as well be unstatted. I don't realyl see how players would interact with it in combat in a meaningful way.

[SilverClawShift]

Really, anything over CR 40 might just as well be unstatted. I don't realyl see how players would interact with it in combat in a meaningful way.

Well, even if the first person to act wins the fight, you still need to stat out initiative... :smallamused:

[GoC]

While that's scary, this Wiki site (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating) with NPC encounters has some terrible NPCs statted out. Such as Bahamut, at CR 107.

They also have a Star Turtle statted out at something like CR 84 million. It's ridiculous. I'd love to know how they came up with that number.

I have a lot of trouble with the Lavos monster in that site. For one thing it's power is massively overestimated (DR 3426? Really?) and the world the game takes place in is only 40-50 kilometers or so in diameter. Even going by in-game stats Lavos only has two thousand or so hp.
And then there's a 20 megaton nuke only doing 260d6 damage?! I calculated the damage a 1 megaton nuke would do to someone standing next to it by looking at the depth of the crater formed and calculating how many hp of damage it inflicted in that direction. I got 2.5 billion points of damage. Then I used the average kinetic energy of an arrow to calculate how many arrows of energy the nuke blasts. I got 5 billion points of damage.
Either way 260d6 is beyond ridiculous.:smallannoyed:

tl; dr: Lavos stats caused by severe case of fanboyism.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well, even if the first person to act wins the fight, you still need to stat out initiative... :smallamused:

So in other words, Wizards still win. Yay Wizards. Bes init since the hummingbird Familiar and still getting better.

[Eldariel]

I have a lot of trouble with the Lavos monster in that site. For one thing it's power is massively overestimated (DR 3426? Really?) and the world the game takes place in is only 40-50 kilometers or so in diameter. Even going by in-game stats Lavos only has two thousand or so hp.
And then there's a 20 megaton nuke only doing 260d6 damage?! I calculated the damage a 1 megaton nuke would do to someone standing next to it by looking at the depth of the crater formed and calculating how many hp of damage it inflicted in that direction. I got 2.5 billion points of damage. Then I used the average kinetic energy of an arrow to calculate how many arrows of energy the nuke blasts. I got 5 billion points of damage.
Either way 260d6 is beyond ridiculous.:smallannoyed:

tl; dr: Lavos stats caused by severe case of fanboyism.

That's totally not correct:
-Lavos's first form has first those combat modes for a total of about 30000 HP, then the main Lavos for about 10000 HP (with it being doubled in Ocean Palace). His second form (the robot) has about 10000 HP on each arm (first has a bit under and the stronger arm has about 13000) along with 20000 HP on the body; the damage to the main body is reduced before hands are destroyed so effectively it has the combined HP of all those. Third form humanoid has only 10000 HP, but the Core has 35000 HP or so. If we count all that together, while it doesn't have as much as they've given it (and Chrono Trigger HP is about 10 times the D&D HP; level 1 characters start with about hundred), we get 40000 HP for the first form, 40000 HP for the second form and about 45000 HP (disregarding the left bit) HP for the third form for a total of 125000 HP. Of course, it would make sense to make the shell a separate opponent and give the core its own stats (or treat the shell as an intelligent item that acts at its own initiative and makes the wearer invulnerable).

-By most accounts, the planet is supposed to be about the same as ours in size, although only having two relevant continents. It's just compressed for ease of the in-game experience. So Lavos effectively annihilates about 150 000 000 square kilometers worth of land, assuming that the land-to-sea ratio of the planet is about the same as ours. That does take quite some damage, especially since it killed basically all vegetation while at it. Since the attack deals about 160 damage to Magic Resistance 99 character, the actual damage it deals before reductions is about 15000. 260d6 is understating it. Of course, that's two volleys (when it uses Destruction Rains from the Heavens, the attack has two separate 'rains'), so one Rain would deal mere 7500 damage. D&Dified, it would be about 750 damage, which is a pretty good estimate for 260d6, which has the estimate value of 910. Note that effectively Lavos does the whole Rain in one action (it's one turn he spends on it), so I think a case could be made that he could make two attacks at the same target with it.

-DR is a bit hairy since CT uses a percentage-based DR system while D&D uses a hard number; the DR it has (discounting the effective damage block that can only be bypassed by destroying other parts first) definitely does cut easily 3000 damage off the average attack, since it about halves the real damage that would be dealt and 3000 is pretty standard towards the end of the game. However, in D&D terms, that should only be about 300 or so and the DR should be dependant on the attacker. Besides, Lavos's most important defense is the HP anyways. I'd assume they opted for the huge DR because of the apparently-impregnable shell.

[Cuddly]

So in other words, Wizards still win. Yay Wizards. Bes init since the hummingbird Familiar and still getting better.

There's that one epic feat that let's you go first in initiative. Supreme initiative or something.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

There's that one epic feat that let's you go first in initiative. Supreme initiative or something.

And what are the rules for if two parties have it? And is there any reason a Wizard can't take it?

Wizard Init at 20:

Aggressive + Hummingbird + Races of Wild Sub levels + Improved Initiative + Divine Insight + Nerveskitter + Dex
2 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 9 + 5 + Dex = 28 + Dex.

[Cuddly]

And what are the rules for if two parties have it? And is there any reason a Wizard can't take it?

Wizard Init at 20:

Aggressive + Hummingbird + Races of Wild Sub levels + Improved Initiative + Divine Insight + Nerveskitter + Dex
2 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 9 + 5 + Dex = 28 + Dex.

My bad; it's a divine feat. If the wizard has divine ranks and 29 dex, then he can qualify for the feat.

[Mewtarthio]

As for the OP: you might wanna make it clear that its a BAD thing for pretty much everyone to remove the PP from Nessus, but if the PC's are intelligent and prepared they totally ought to be able to put up at least a good fight against the Aspect.

But would that really do anything? There's a copy in Mechanus, too, and that place is so utterly Lawful that I doubt there's any chance that anyone could claim it's a forgery. And if you stole that Pact, they'd be able to compare the Pacts in Celestia and Nessus to rebuild it. The way I see it, you'd have to steal or destroy the Pact in Mechanus and one of the other Pacts, and you'd have to do it fast enough that no one can react in time to stop you or rebuild the missing Pacts, if you wanted to throw the cosmos seriously out of whack.

Unless, of course, the PCs just want to humiliate Asmodeus and/or make everyone get all scared.

[Prometheus]

Perhaps it is a double trick. Asmodeus lets them do this because he thinks it is further his goals, but really, the PCs have to use this opportunity to their advantage by surprising Asmodeus under his assumption that they don't know that this is what Asmodeus thinks is to his advantage. Of course, for such a masterful plan they'd need the help of another God. Mephistopheles?

[Frosty]

Perhaps the good deities have found a way to contain the demonic hordes, and din't need Asmodeus anymore. so, it is time to steal one of Asmodeus's sources of power...that Pact.

[GoC]

That's totally not correct:
-Lavos's first form has first those combat modes for a total of about 30000 HP, then the main Lavos for about 10000 HP (with it being doubled in Ocean Palace). His second form (the robot) has about 10000 HP on each arm (first has a bit under and the stronger arm has about 13000) along with 20000 HP on the body; the damage to the main body is reduced before hands are destroyed so effectively it has the combined HP of all those. Third form humanoid has only 10000 HP, but the Core has 35000 HP or so. If we count all that together, while it doesn't have as much as they've given it (and Chrono Trigger HP is about 10 times the D&D HP; level 1 characters start with about hundred), we get 40000 HP for the first form, 40000 HP for the second form and about 45000 HP (disregarding the left bit) HP for the third form for a total of 125000 HP. Of course, it would make sense to make the shell a separate opponent and give the core its own stats (or treat the shell as an intelligent item that acts at its own initiative and makes the wearer invulnerable).
You mention the conversion factor from CT to D&D hp but don't use it.
The site also statted out only the first "real" form and that's the one we're talking about. Ordinary people in D&D have 2 hp. Ordinary children in CT have 60hp. This gives the form of Lavos statted out on the site a total of 333hp. Compare that to the 200626hp listed.


-By most accounts, the planet is supposed to be about the same as ours in size, although only having two relevant continents. It's just compressed for ease of the in-game experience. So Lavos effectively annihilates about 150 000 000 square kilometers worth of land, assuming that the land-to-sea ratio of the planet is about the same as ours. That does take quite some damage, especially since it killed basically all vegetation while at it. Since the attack deals about 160 damage to Magic Resistance 99 character, the actual damage it deals before reductions is about 15000. 260d6 is understating it. Of course, that's two volleys (when it uses Destruction Rains from the Heavens, the attack has two separate 'rains'), so one Rain would deal mere 7500 damage. D&Dified, it would be about 750 damage, which is a pretty good estimate for 260d6, which has the estimate value of 910. Note that effectively Lavos does the whole Rain in one action (it's one turn he spends on it), so I think a case could be made that he could make two attacks at the same target with it.
Supposed to be the same size?!:smallconfused:
Look at the (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/563538/28980) maps. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/563538/28979)
Even the bridge is to scale!
Are you agreeing with the site saying that Lavos is TWO MILES LONG?
Also ordinary human girls have magic resistance 7 so magic resistance isn't amazing. Unfortunately as D&D doesn't have such mechanics lets just focus on the things that are definitely wrong.
There are two Apocalypse from the Skys. One is the one he used on Apocalypse day, the other is the one used against Chrono&co. If it wasn't that way then Chrono's battle was pointless as the world gets destroyed anyway.


-DR is a bit hairy since CT uses a percentage-based DR system while D&D uses a hard number; the DR it has (discounting the effective damage block that can only be bypassed by destroying other parts first) definitely does cut easily 3000 damage off the average attack, since it about halves the real damage that would be dealt and 3000 is pretty standard towards the end of the game. However, in D&D terms, that should only be about 300 or so and the DR should be dependant on the attacker. Besides, Lavos's most important defense is the HP anyways. I'd assume they opted for the huge DR because of the apparently-impregnable shell.
In my first game Chrono survived the initial attack in the ocean palace and so I tried out both Chrono's attack and Lucca's little bomb (I was using an emulator so I could retry). They both dealt damage (about 150 or so) so it's safe to say that it's not DR but extra hp. It's impossible to become immune to an attack that does 100+ damage in CT. That's the rough equivalent of a normal sword swing in D&D. I think it's safe to say that a nuke would do at least some damage.
I also don't recall any regeneration in CT. IIRC only the final Lavos form healed itself. Lavos should have extra hp not DR. About 3000hp (10x modifier) should do the trick.

btw: Magus is the coolest.:smallcool:

[Frosty]

Cyrus is cooler!