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Calinero
2008-03-27, 08:19 PM
I've been itching for a bit to try out a chaotic evil character, but I am faced with a problem...most of the actions that immediately come to mind when I think of 'chaotic evil' involve doing things that would piss off a lot of the other players, and generally end up with me being a jackass. But, unless I am misinterpreting the alignment (which is entirely possible, I am fairly new), one of the defining aspects of chaotic evil is being able to wreak whatever mayhem you want. How do you do this without making an ass of yourself an alienating the party?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-27, 08:21 PM
Chaotic Evil doesn't mean crazy. It doesn't mean you're willing to do anything. It doesn't mean you don't care about any consequences.

Read Matthew Stover's Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle. Caine, the Protagonist, is... well, most likely Chaotic Evil. He nevertheless manages to be a compelling and even sympathetic protagonist.

EvilElitest
2008-03-27, 08:22 PM
Might makes right. I am strong, and thus i am the right to rule

Just one aspect of CE. It is a rather open alignment to many types of ideals
from
EE

Saph
2008-03-27, 08:27 PM
It's kind of difficult. Chaotic Evil is the textbook 'does not play well with others' alignment. Many experienced players (me included) will flat-out refuse to play in a party with any Chaotic Evil character in the absence of a very good reason, for exactly the reason you've written down - being in the same party with someone whose character concept revolves around 'doing whatever mayhem he wants' is generally not fun.

If you still want to go through with it, my advice would be:

a) Check that the rest of the group's OK with you playing an Evil character.
b) The other PCs are off-limits. Do not kill, attack, or rob them, or do anything else likely to provoke an in-party fight.
c) Restrict your death-and-destruction episodes to situations where they won't cause too much trouble for the rest of the party.

If you do this, they may still not be all that happy with having a Belkar in the party, but they're more likely to put up with it.

- Saph

Nebo_
2008-03-27, 08:27 PM
Chaotic Evil is ok. Just don't be a 'tard and you'll be fine. I've seen some wonderfully played CE characters that didn't go around raping and pillaging, or murdering people because they looked at him wrong.

Calinero
2008-03-27, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the advice! True, I cannot think of many who would be happy with a Belkar in the party....one of the reasons I most respect The Giant is for being able to write Belkar well enough that my Willing Suspension of Disbelief isn't broken by the fact that Roy and co. allow him to stay in the party.

Breaw
2008-03-27, 08:38 PM
Chaotic evil doesn't mean stupid. Chaotic, evil and stupid would be hard to play though.

The nice thing about CE alignment is that you aren't forced to do anything. Good deeds don't disgust you. A LG player really should step in if they see someone being mugged, but there's no reason for you to charge in and break up someone giving food and blankets to the homeless. You'll definitely feel a strong desire to oppose anyone trying to 'control' you, but there's no need to be overt about it.

In fact, your character might have a lot of fun (and you along with him) seeing what you can get away with without your party knowing. You'll need a pretty good group of players to ignore the things that their characters don't know, but they themselves do... but that's another matter all together.

If I can quote Belkar (when describing why he is going willingly with Miko) : "If I can kill it here, I can kill it anywhere."

I wouldn't try it with a pally in the party, but it general it can be a lot of fun to RP. If you do it right you'll have the party defending you if/when the peasants and town guard figure out what you've been up to, at least the first time!

Solo
2008-03-27, 08:38 PM
Jayne from Firefly is arguably Chaotic Evil, but manages to get along with the others.

Most of the time.

Zincorium
2008-03-27, 08:42 PM
Basically, the problems stem from the level of devotion to the alignment and the attention paid to how your actions will affect you.

Realistically, a chaotic evil person is not going to do anything they think will either get them killed, cause a loss of freedom, or impoverish them unless the reward is great enough to justify the risk. A mercenary who collects pay all campaign, while hanging back in the smaller fights, and then deserts the night before the final battle shows this kind of behavior.

A complication occurs when the chaotic evil person has friends in the party. As friends, they're important (if distinctly secondary to the CE person) and generally have some kind of benefits stemming from association. They watch your back while you sleep, they share treasure they find lying around, etc. You'll take small risks to protect your investment and keep them around and happy. But if things get complicated, and you are expected to make sacrifices? Well, you're just not that kind of friend.

People who aren't your friends...

Well, they just don't matter beyond what they can do for you, or what you can use them to obtain. Killing them without reason makes you a psychotic, letting them die because they're not worth the effort to help is chaotic evil. They're not people, not like you and your buddies are people.

It doesn't mean you don't have a touch of class, you might still tip well so your drinks aren't watered down, you might let someone who insults you go with just a glare rather than the beating they deserve, but it's a facade. You'd cut all their throats for the gold in their pockets if you knew there wouldn't be any consequences.

Calinero
2008-03-27, 08:46 PM
Yeah, I can see Jayne as Chaotic Evil....Mal is Chaotic Good. Whatever Jayne is, he's definitely chaotic. Depending on how much you like him, you could argue for either Evil or Neutral for him. It's a shame the show was cancelled before he could be developed more....

I think I'm seeing a common denominator here. I was under a misconception about the class...for some reason, I was thinking of Chaotic Evil as 'go around, being cliched evil and doing mean things for any reason whatsoever!' I forgot to factor in things like self-preservation, and sanity.

Chronos
2008-03-27, 08:48 PM
Jayne from Firefly is arguably Chaotic Evil, but manages to get along with the others.

Most of the time.Eh, I'd be more inclined to call him Chaotic Neutral. He knows he's not good, but he's sort of disappointed in himself for not being good. See the end of the episode "Jaynestown", for example.

Solo
2008-03-27, 08:57 PM
Eh, I'd be more inclined to call him Chaotic Neutral. He knows he's not good, but he's sort of disappointed in himself for not being good. See the end of the episode "Jaynestown", for example.

He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?

The Extinguisher
2008-03-27, 09:01 PM
Don't be stupid evil. You should be fine.

Try being passive agressive chaotic evil. That might be fun.

Dode
2008-03-27, 09:07 PM
You are free, free of all morality or judgment.
Never be bound to a higher authority.
Never be bound to your word.
Never be bound by mercy or friendship.
Never be bound by the rights of others.
Fulfill your destiny no matter what it costs to anyone else.

The_Snark
2008-03-27, 09:12 PM
One of the more successful Chaotic Evil characters I've played was a character seeking immortality. Not in the sense of agelessness—they'd already found that; immortality in the sense of being completely free from the fear of death. The character was more than a little unbalanced, and slightly paranoid; not in the sense of suspecting everyone was plotting against her, but in the sense of knowing (through experience and by way of having seen way too much death in her early days) that eventually, no matter what you did, something was going to get you. To try to avoid that, the character had been essentially shedding various limitations and weaknesses; the need to sleep, a defined shape, aging... the character was basically trying to get rid of everything that limits people.

I hadn't actually set out to make a Chaotic Evil character, but when considering alignment, I decided she was unpredictable and really didn't care about any sort of code, set of rules, or laws, which tends to mean Chaotic to me; similarly, the character wasn't very concerned with the wellbeing of other people. If they weren't doing anything, watch them; if they might be planning something, it was time to start employing mind control, kill someone, or just leave. The character was not incapable of having friends (and in fact was often rather lonely, owing to being an eccentric wandering shapeshifter). It worked well in a party, and it came across very well; she was the party's wild card, with nobody ever quite sure how she'd react to a given situation.

So it's definitely possible. Just make sure that your CE character will have a reason for staying with the group and not backstabbing them, and that they have a reason for tolerating the character, and it can be very interesting.

AslanCross
2008-03-27, 09:16 PM
IMO, a CE PC without being Chaotic Stupid or psychotic would be very similar to an NE PC, except with the minor difference of deriving pleasure from tormenting your so-called friends once in a while.

You keep others around only because they're useful to you. You like tormenting them (ala Belkar) and only help them when it suits your needs. Sometimes you will go out of your way to offend them, but it still is possible to gain your (grudging) respect if the said person shows an admirable quality (shrewdness or strength, depending on your character).

Bishop (CE ranger NPC) in Neverwinter Nights 2 was like that. I hated his guts, but he wasn't a psychotic murderer and had his own struggles despite being a repulsive, chauvinistic, selfish jerk.

TheCountAlucard
2008-03-27, 09:21 PM
I think I'm seeing a common denominator here. I was under a misconception about the class...for some reason, I was thinking of Chaotic Evil as 'go around, being cliched evil and doing mean things for any reason whatsoever!' I forgot to factor in things like self-preservation, and sanity.

Heh, glad to see you've seen the light. Even demons, the shining paragon of chaos and evil, are usually fairly smart about how they go about doing things. If they go on a killing spree, they're gonna do it in a way that doesn't get them killed.

You've got to keep in mind, there are a hundred or more ways to play the same alignment. In my evil campaign, two of my players have made Lawful Evil characters, and they behave in very different ways.

Konig
2008-03-27, 09:22 PM
I personally define chaotic evil is the ultimate 'selfish' alignment. A CE character still isn't, as many have said, stupid. He's his own first priority, but that doesn't preclude working with others. I'd define the mentality as being something like...
I'm evil. That means I sin. I might focus on lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, envy, wrath or pride, or I might embrace all of these sins on a daily basis.
I'm chaotic. That means I prioritize freedom over structure. I change, I adapt, I am more creative than logical, I act by whim rather than long term plans.
I'm an adventurer because it's more money, fame and power than I could get doing a simpler job. Money, fame and power get me whatever else I want.
I adventure with others because adventuring is dangerous, and if I'm in a team of 4, that's just 3 more bodies keeping me alive.
If it doesn't inconvenience me unnecessarily, I help my teammates. If they owe me one, that's a favor I can use later.
A living ally is more beneficial than a dead one.

Proven_Paradox
2008-03-27, 09:24 PM
One thing that I think several people here have said that I disagree with is about chaotic evil and the concept of friendship. Yes, you should be number one, and their needs are secondary to yours, but I see no reason to say that CE characters cannot form bonds of friendship, especially with NE or CN characters who don't mind their occasional destructive acts. After adventuring with the NE rogue for a few months, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the CE barbarian to come to enjoy his company, drink with the man, maybe even come to trust him. He might even put himself at some marginal risk for him (though he wouldn't die for him). Evil doesn't mean friendship is impossible. Just harder. Same for love, actually.

Konig
2008-03-27, 09:30 PM
I agree there. Of course, the nature of said friendship & love would differ somewhat.

A BBEG with a daughter might adore his daughter, but might be cruel to her as a reaction; perhaps attempting to instill the same harsh lessons he believed forged him into the man he is today. He might spoil her, exposing her to a sort of hedonistic lifestyle. He might practice a warped kind of parenting depending on what his particular philosophy or mindset is. An unhealthy heart breeds unhealthy relationships.

Calinero
2008-03-27, 09:39 PM
I vaguely remember one of The Giant's articles mentioning how he completely threw off some players in a campaign he was the GM of, by introducing two main villains who worked together. The PC's tried to play them against each other, not believing that the two could honestly be friends....but they were. It didn't make logical sense, it didn't benefit either of them...but even evil people can have friends.

As for me, though, I think it would be difficult enough to play a CE person without factoring in friendship as well. Trying to make a CE character in love seems far too difficult, at the moment. I'm going to wait until I have more experience (the real kind, not the XP kind!) before tackling anything like that.

Kekken
2008-03-27, 09:50 PM
The online Alignment test is full of questions that can be answered by all sorts of "normal" people.

In fact, just for a test, I decided to try it out with the frame of mind of one of the Fated from Plansecape. In otherwords, "look out for number one, never give or accept charity, and only respect authority so long as it adbvances your own agenda."

I got chaotic evil. Duke Rowan Darkwood, Factol of the Takers, would definatly be Chaotic Evil, and yet he is also one of the most respected (and yes, even admired by many) cutters in Sigil.

So yeah, as long as you're not cliche dancing-in-the-blood-of-infants and summon demons every other day, you should be fine. You're probably best of avoiding an chaotic evil cleric or blackguard, as they are more or less required to be evil for evil's sake, whereas other people can be evil for selfishness sake.

Zeful
2008-03-27, 09:51 PM
Chaotic Evil is the embodiment of narcissism. Everything is about you.

I thought up a Chaotic Evil villain. He had a plan to get the McGuffin and that involved a little risk. He spent time and most of his spell power to defend his body while he magic jar'd into children to further his goals. He thought of every one else as a tool for his sole use.

Occasional Sage
2008-03-27, 09:55 PM
Chaotic Evil is as hard to roleplay (well) as Lawful Good, and for many of the same reasons. I have a great deal of respect for your taking this on; like playing a character with a paladin-esque mindset, it's very difficult to do both convincingly and in a way that's fun for the group.

Good luck, and I hope you post about it!

Dark Knight Renee
2008-03-27, 10:35 PM
First off, make sure your party is OK with you playing an evil character. Also, unless you actually plan on being over the top EVIL, make sure you let them know that you aren’t going for over the top, or you’re likely to be rejected out of hand. Don’t even mention that it’s chaotic evil, for the same reason.

An evil character doesn’t have to be out to wreck havoc – he’s out for himself or for his agenda, and lacks morals in achieving his goals. Mr. CE doesn’t, however, have to place himself first. He can easily have someone or something else as his No. 1 priority, and be it a cause, an item, or a person. In an adventuring party, an evil character may be care enough about his friends (party members) to do just about anything for them, even if everyone and everything else is fair game – especially when Good aligned friends aren’t looking, or when those friends are in trouble. If that’s his No. 1 priority, even an evil character can perform actions that appear, on the surface, altruistic. I think that many people forget this.

Vuzzmop
2008-03-27, 10:49 PM
He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?

I believe you may be forgetting that this is one instance, in a universe in which the people within do not have to justify actions and reactions by strict moral and ethical axises. Funny thing is, I don't think Joss Whedon sat down at the script-writing table and thought "hmmm, i wonder what D&D alignment my characters will be today?"

Dark Knight Renee
2008-03-27, 10:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that Jayne does, in fact, fall within the bounds of the Evil alignment. I'm also pretty sure that Mal does a much better job of keeping him in line than the OotS does with Belkar, which severely limits how much of it he actually gets to do and how much of it we see.

Chronos
2008-03-27, 10:55 PM
He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?I'm half-ninjaed (monked?) by Vuzzmop, in noting that that was a single incident, but also note that at the time, he didn't know the whole situation with River. He knew she was crazy, but he didn't know why. Even Simon only found out that they mutilated her brain at the same time that Jayne was turning them in.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-27, 11:10 PM
One thing to notice is that regardless of Jayne's alignment, he and Belkar have one thing in common:

They'd both get into a lot more trouble if they didn't have someone keeping them in check.

Remember, if Might makes Right to a Chaotic Evil person, then someone stronger then them should hold power over them:

So you can play your Chaotic Evil who has his most dastardly actions held of by a strong authority figure. Not that you might not try to betray them if it looks good enough, but you'll do what they want most of the time. (And maybe the Power of Plot will conveniently make your Chaotic side supersede you evil side at just the right moments to keep you working with your party instead of against them, *cough*Belkar*cough* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html))

Jayngfet
2008-03-27, 11:15 PM
adventurer as a profession seems chaotic evil to begin with, there's a whole guild out there, most people just walk into the nearest orc town and burn it to the ground (according to cityscape orc and goblinoid cities are built around this being an eventuality), we can't all save the world from the demonic army hellbent on destruction, some of us belkar for a living.


if they get uppity just inform them of this.

SofS
2008-03-27, 11:35 PM
As everyone has mentioned, there are a lot of ways to play Chaotic Evil. In my opinion, the most interesting aspect of alignments lies in interpersonal relationships. No one is an island, especially if they live and travel with a group, and no ability score can prevent someone from developing fondness and loyalty to the right people. Not knowing your character concept, it's difficult to come up with good ideas, but maybe one of the following hooks will work for you. I'll put down three character concepts that could logically have good friends while still having very little respect for sentient life.


- Consider a character who outwardly fits most of the personality traits that sit well with society at large. He could be witty and urbane, maybe with a bit of an amusing mean streak. He could have a good Charisma, maybe even be an artist of some type. Such a person could be quite respected unless someone saw his dark side. He's good with his fellows, he can entertain and be entertained and experience love. He also actively enjoys hurting and killing people. He thinks it's quite the gas to do someone in and get away with it. As he likes the life he's built for himself, he knows to keep it where he can handle it. A great hero could just be someone who really, really likes to put the hurt on his enemies. His allies might have problems with it, but he's really not that bad, right? He's just a man who deals with things decisively and never looks back. I've been thinking a little bit of Dorian Gray while writing this.

- Maybe you want to play someone who's an open malcontent. She sneers at anyone who wants something from her, thinking of them as weak and needy. She doesn't need society, but society might well need her. She has friends, though. Life gets lonely when you don't care about people, and she's never met anyone quite like the group she's fallen in with. They're not weak; on the contrary, they do the kind of things she thought that only she could do. Maybe she even envies how they can keep a smile and an open heart in this world that she hates so much. Eventually, their trust in her pays off, and she trusts them right back. It's her and her buddies against the world, in her view, and she pities the world.

- Finally, there's the possibility of someone who's more philosophical than convinced. He decided that freedom was the only thing that mattered, far more than some petty lives. Sure, he's no psycho killer; all he wants is to live his way, with no one telling him what to do and his work receiving fair return. No one will leave him alone to do what he knows to be important, though, and he swears that they will never, ever take him alive. As time hardens him and strengthens his will, he becomes aware that there are other self-willed people in the world. He probably has to fight most of them, but maybe there are some who can respect him and be respected right back. If he meets them, he might fight to the death just to keep the only good people he's ever met alive.

The point here is that people that fall into D&D evil are generally at least a bit conceited and at least a bit lonely, in my opinion. They might value allies far more than some do-gooder who can always make new friends. To them, a good person is incredibly precious, and woe betide anyone who tries to break them up.

I apologize if this is just a waste of your time. I hope it maybe sparks off a neat idea for your character.

TheCountAlucard
2008-03-27, 11:46 PM
I wish you the best of luck with your Chaotic Evil character!

Khanderas
2008-03-28, 04:03 AM
Many good points prior to mine.
Me personally I would set a goal of some kind. Be rich. Be powerful. See the world. Whatever.
Then identifying how to achieve that. Adventuring, theft, appropriation and use of a specific artifact, gather favors (and money for bribes for those you didnt get to have favors from).

The evil part comes into what you are willing to do to achive that. If you feel you need to gain a favor of a noble, you can assassinate an illegitimate son of his to cover up a scandal, or help him rout some bandits. Wich of those two dont matter, you pick what give you the most for the least effort (not due to lazyness, but efficiency. Killing a kid takes an afternoon but tha bandit problem can take weeks and is considerably more dangerous).

Chaotic means you put yourself as nr 1. And problebly as nr 2 & 3 as well. Your partymembers are nice enough to hang with, but above that, they are useful allies (some call them tools). Helping them means you get favors to call in when you need help, but something you can fix yourself, you do, else you start owing them favors. Killing them gains you a +2 sword and some gold, but hey, you need somone to swing that sword anyway, might as well be somone you trust (and more importantly, that trusts you :smallwink: ) and gold... well sharing is a pain, but patience pays off. Together you can take on bigger fish.

Roderick_BR
2008-03-28, 07:33 AM
The problem with CE is the "E" part. In D&D, being evil means that you DO take delight in the suffering of others.
A person that just doesn't care for others is neutral. A "free spirit", unbound by laws and limits, is CN. If you do get out of your way just to inflict pain (physical or emotional), then you are playing CE.
To be a CE, you need to have a streak of meaniness. You don't need to go on a rampage killing stuff. You can just enjoy killing things a bit too much. You can a "bad boy", and menace people, just to see their scared(or annoyed) faces.
Take Belkar, for example. At one point, he goes trought a whole trouble trying to make Miko fall, instead of "just" killing her off. That's what CE can be.

Khanderas's point on "do ANYTHING to achieve my goals" is a good take on it too.

An example on my group. The party's barbarian was CN. He didn't care for people. He just helped if there had a reward, if his allies (that he respected) convinced him, or if the enemy was someone he hated, or the victims someone he liked ("I didn't really liked those guys in my village, but heck, they are good drinking buddies, so I helped anyway. The elves? Hah, they had it coming.")
At once point, because an old guy refused to give them an information, the barbarian grabbed the old man, slammed him in the ground, and put his axe on his throath, demanding him to talk despite the fact the group was trying to find out who was bullying the merchants into paying for "protection".
I pointed to the player that he was dangerously wandering into CE area. He denied it at the time, but after the session, he admited that he went too far.

Seriously, most groups have no problems with chaotic characters (they actually have problems with lawful ones), the problem is when you want to play the evil part.

Telonius
2008-03-28, 09:12 AM
Remember, "Evil" is not limited to killing/torturing somebody. Theft works just as well. A chaotic evil conman might be interesting to play. Just don't swindle the party - even conmen sometimes work in groups.

Konig
2008-03-28, 10:32 AM
Me personally I would set a goal of some kind. Be rich. Be powerful. See the world. Whatever.

Then identifying how to achieve that. Adventuring, theft, appropriation and use of a specific artifact, gather favors (and money for bribes for those you didnt get to have favors from).

In my mind, a chaotic villain is less about goals. Think of it this way. There's two major types of serial killer...

There's pattern killers; ones who kill according to a methodology. They're dangerous because they plan, they're careful, they apply their knowledge to their crimes. Sometimes they have a theme or an overarching plan. They're eventually caught because they have a pattern, the police figure it out & get ahead of them.

Then there's impulse killers. They don't have a conscious goal, they simply commit murders on the spur of the moment. There's far less of a pattern, simply a trail of bodies that escalates in quantity & extremity. They're eventually caught because they don't plan and tend to make a crucial mistake somewhere down the line.

To me, that's a clear cut difference between a lawful & chaotic villain. The former isn't necessarily better or smarter - he's simply taking a different, slower, more premeditated path. Smart impulse killers have haunted authorities & gone uncaught to this day.

So I'd argue that a CE villain might have more vague wants - he might have a goal of 'getting a lot of money', but I wouldn't take it much beyond that. The how & why of his pursuit of his goals (and even the goals themselves) are apt to change over months or years.


Chaotic means you put yourself as nr 1. And problebly as nr 2 & 3 as well. Your partymembers are nice enough to hang with, but above that, they are useful allies (some call them tools). Helping them means you get favors to call in when you need help, but something you can fix yourself, you do, else you start owing them favors. Killing them gains you a +2 sword and some gold, but hey, you need somone to swing that sword anyway, might as well be somone you trust (and more importantly, that trusts you :smallwink: ) and gold... well sharing is a pain, but patience pays off. Together you can take on bigger fish.

It's important to keep in mind that that mentality is more chaotic evil. Chaotic, by the book, tends to mean a desire & an approach defined by freedom. No restraints, no structure. Evil & Chaotic together tend to exemplify a selfish approach... which doesn't mean he can't work with others.


Remember, "Evil" is not limited to killing/torturing somebody. Theft works just as well. A chaotic evil conman might be interesting to play. Just don't swindle the party - even conmen sometimes work in groups.

Indeed. Other options might be...
A hedonist. Your character overindulges in drugs, drink, quality food, men and/or women. He/she lives for all the pleasures of the flesh, and might adventure solely to retire to the bars or the red light district after a job.
A glutton. This doesn't have to be for food, but it easily could be. A glutton uses far more than he needs. He wastes, and harms/inconveniences others in doing so. A glutton could seek to imbible magical power, dreams, memories (see some outsiders there), or to transcend mortality by steeping himself in elemental or negative energy, potentially tainting the region or requiring the sacrifice of others to do so.
A heretic. Your character disdains organized religions. For every faith, the character has dozens of hard questions. He gets off on making divine casters -- ones who have devoted their lives to a god & have contact with said god on a daily, even hourly basis -- doubt. Even if it's hard to buy the atheist approach in D&D (doable, but hard), even the most lawful gods are unpredictable enough that you have material to work with. (Why does a relatively pacifist healing god like Pelor have so much violence in his mythology? Why do so many of his iconic items hurt more than they heal).
An anarchist. Your character is as the heretic, but rejects government. He encourages others to subvert authority... if society just happens to come crumbling down, what does he mind? He's an adventurer, and is almost better off in a society devoid of structure.
A bully. Your character likes to be top dog, and uses intimidation & brawn to cow others into submission. In a group, he's content so long as he's the de-facto leader (though he might not want any such work related to the job). If he isn't boss, he uses tactics - blatant or underhanded - to make the real boss miserable.
Racist or specist - your character has an irrational dislike of a particular race or species. It might not even be noticeable in the long run, depending on the target(s). If a human despises orcs, she might not even stand out until she slaughters the women & children, or tries to 'make an example' of an orc by leaving him alive, but not in one piece, for his bretheren to find.
Deviant. Check with your fellow characters before pulling this one off. Your character might be a little bit of a jerk, but tolerable. His true 'evil' is in his pursuit of behaviors or passions better left unspoken. The other PCs might just avoid thinking about their does with their caster captive aboleth in their HQ's dungeon. There's something distinctly uncomfortable about a human or half orc barbarian who's more than a little too fond of halflings.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-28, 10:37 AM
I would say, that one way to play a Chaotic Evil type is that they feel free to do anything. They could be a jerk to their team mates, go on a killing spree, and eat babies in the town square.

But those would have consequences. Therefore it's better to only be a little bit of a jerk to your team mates, kill when no one is looking, and consume your babies in a way that no one can anything about it.

It's even possible to play a character that psychotic (though probably not with any paragons of justice), but the important thing is to play a smart psychopath. Explain away the disappearance of babies by blaming it on the fairies, or set someone else up.


But, it's probably better to keep things low key. Steal coins from the old blind beggar, kick that annoying puppy, cheat at cards, laugh manically and twirl your mustache.

kamikasei
2008-03-28, 10:41 AM
A heretic. Your character disdains organized religions. For every faith, the character has dozens of hard questions. He gets off on making divine casters -- ones who have devoted their lives to a god & have contact with said god on a daily, even hourly basis -- doubt. Even if it's hard to buy the atheist approach in D&D (doable, but hard), even the most lawful gods are unpredictable enough that you have material to work with. (Why does a relatively pacifist healing god like Pelor have so much violence in his mythology? Why do so many of his iconic items hurt more than they heal).

Er, where's the evil here? This guy just sounds contrarian.

Timmit
2008-03-28, 10:54 AM
He turns in River and her brother into the feds knowing they experimented on her, turned her schizophrenic, and mutilated her brain, and probably would continue to do so,.

Chaotic Neutral behavior?To be fair, that was right after River attacked him with a knife...

Konig
2008-03-28, 10:56 AM
Well, as I see it, if you can inspire enough doubt to shake someone from his life's calling, or if you're actively perverting or defiling a religion, it's congregation or it's relics, then you're getting more evil.

It's a matter of scale. You can have a LG character who's got a hedonistic streak, or a racist CG. Take it in the right direction & you've got evil with definition.

kamikasei
2008-03-28, 11:03 AM
Well, as I see it, if you can inspire enough doubt to shake someone from his life's calling, or if you're actively perverting or defiling a religion, it's congregation or it's relics, then you're getting more evil.

You didn't say anything about "perverting" or "defiling", and I absoultely reject the idea that advocating doubt and questioning is Chaotic Evil. Insisting on needling everyone you meet about the problems with their beliefs is pretty Chaotic, but to illustrate the absurdity of the Evil label consider that you would apparently be "getting more evil" if you convinced the evil cleric that Hextor is not a good target of worship.

Konig
2008-03-28, 11:13 AM
You didn't say anything about "perverting" or "defiling", and I absoultely reject the idea that advocating doubt and questioning is Chaotic Evil. Insisting on needling everyone you meet about the problems with their beliefs is pretty Chaotic, but to illustrate the absurdity of the Evil label consider that you would apparently be "getting more evil" if you convinced the evil cleric that Hextor is not a good target of worship.

As I said, it's all in the direction you take it. The evil in it is about context & flavor.

Convincing the cleric that Hextor isn't a good target for worship would be a (arguably) good act. By contrast, convincing a cleric of Pelor that his god might not be quite as pure as he thinks could be an evil act, especially if you can shake him from his path and deny those in the region his services.

The topic we were addressing was good concepts for CE characters. A con man could be CG, but you're not really arguing the good vs. evil possibilities there. An anarchist, too, could be CG. A bully could be LE. We're not discussing alignment, strictly. We're talking character flavor. That said, a CE character can make a pretty damned flavorful heretic.

Craig1f
2008-03-28, 11:43 AM
I think people are missing three major points when they talk about the way someone of evil alignment should act.

1 - Secret vs Overt Evil.
There's secret evil, and overt evil. An evil character in a party that doesn't know he's evil has a vested interest in keeping his alignment a secret. In this case, blending in may trump the need to commit evil acts. An evil person doesn't feel bad when they commit good acts, unless it requires self-sacrifice. But if you're in a party, and the party is making you rich through adventuring, you have no reason to start killing babies just to retain your alignment. Once you're outed as evil though, you begin to lose the need to hide your alignment, which leads to the second point.

2 - Friends vs Enemies and Neutrals
An evil person does not need to behave brutally to his friends/allies/pack/brothers-in-arms/companions. He has a vested interest in maintaining friends who will look out for him. He should only harm his enemies, and random people. Evil people can have loyalty. However, the Chaotic alignment might conflict with loyalty. CE is hard to play, because they tend to be psychotic. I recommend NE or LE in a party. L-anything is tough to play though, because you basically need rules to govern your behavior. NE gives you more choices.

Anyway, a CE person, who is outed to his party, may choose to act Good in order to maintain those friendships. He may know that the Good guys think they're doing a good thing by keeping him from performing evil. He may intend to do evil acts behind their back, or once they've parted ways. He may even intend to turn on them whenever it's financially advantageous. It doesn't matter, he's getting what he wants for now.

3-Demons and ritual sacrifices aside, evil is more of a "willingness" than a "compulsion"
I hear a lot of talk about Jayne from Firefly. People think he's evil. They think he's evil because he pretty much has no problem killing anyone, turned the Doc and River over to the Feds to be tortured, turned on his old boss, and is pretty much not to be trusted. But for right now, he's fighting the good fight and helping his friends.

Jayne just does what's best for him at any given moment. He doesn't have to constantly kill people. It just means more work, and more cleaning up. He'll do it if it's profitable. He's a mercenary. You don't have to constantly kick puppies to be evil, you just have to be willing to kill someone for the convenience, and turning on people who trust you. If you're trying to sneak somewhere, and some random person on the street sees you, is it easier to kill them or abandon your plan? I think the evil person will say "screw it, he's dead" and the good person will think "damn, I'm spotted. Abort!".

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-28, 12:09 PM
I was under the impression, that the Anarchist/Heretic suggestions were more about possibilities for evil, rather than saying such things are inherently evil.

Unfortunately, it seems that there is a bit of that in the game as is (Ur-Priest requiring an evil alignment for instance)


That being said, I think those archetypes as evil isn't going to work well, unless "the established order" is inherently something good. In which case there's no point to the Law and Chaos part of alignment. It's also far too simplistic for my taste.

Unless the Athiest or Heretic gets something out of shaking the system, they're not evil. And even then, it would be more likely to be neutral. In otherwords, where is the selfishness to such a degree that it's destructive to others? (Just being a little selfish isn't going to cut it).

Dark Knight Renee
2008-03-28, 12:16 PM
Everyting.

What he said.

Calinero
2008-03-28, 12:46 PM
Hm....a common conflict I've seen here is what really defines the difference between CE and CN. I agree that a CE would be more....well....evil, but to what extent? I don't think they would go out of their way to be evil. That strikes me as a stupid thing to do, in many situations, and I don't want my character to be stupid. I'm thinking this: A CN character does whatever they feel like, as long as it doesn't horribly inconvenience them. If they don't like an authority, then they'll ignore it, but they won't go out of their way to disrupt established laws just because they're chaotic. A CE character would be almost the same, except 'whatever they feel like' tends to involve a bit more violence or cruelty. That doesn't mean they go around eating babies (a popular example), but in a case where it costs them nothing to 'be good,' and costs them nothing to eat the baby, they're probably going to eat the baby.

Telonius
2008-03-28, 12:55 PM
CE vs. CN... using the conman example, a CE conman would bilk the orphanage out of its last penny, if he thinks he can get away with it. A CN conman might only try to cheat the people who can afford it. (Might be a stretch, but a CG conman might only cheat the people who "deserve" it).

Konig
2008-03-28, 12:58 PM
I was under the impression, that the Anarchist/Heretic suggestions were more about possibilities for evil, rather than saying such things are inherently evil.

Unfortunately, it seems that there is a bit of that in the game as is (Ur-Priest requiring an evil alignment for instance)


That being said, I think those archetypes as evil isn't going to work well, unless "the established order" is inherently something good. In which case there's no point to the Law and Chaos part of alignment. It's also far too simplistic for my taste.

Unless the Athiest or Heretic gets something out of shaking the system, they're not evil. And even then, it would be more likely to be neutral. In otherwords, where is the selfishness to such a degree that it's destructive to others? (Just being a little selfish isn't going to cut it).

My thought when I was writing it up (and honestly, if you don't think it works for your character, just ignore it) was the Ur-Priest, which you mentioned, and the Corrupter (Dragon #312, I think), the corrupter being a variant paladin, evil, that instead focuses on disabling & bringing down divine spellcasters & their churches.

I don't personally think selfishness should define 100% of what CE is. I see CE as being free of structure & willing/wanting to sin. With a contempt/derision for the establishment & many of the gods, the CE character might reject them, abuse them or attempt to undermine them out of pettiness or spite.

Think of it more as a racist character who is instead prejudiced & vindictive (the latter of which is important to define the degree of evil) towards religions, rather than a given race or species.

Talya
2008-03-28, 01:15 PM
One thing that I think several people here have said that I disagree with is about chaotic evil and the concept of friendship. Yes, you should be number one, and their needs are secondary to yours, but I see no reason to say that CE characters cannot form bonds of friendship, especially with NE or CN characters who don't mind their occasional destructive acts. After adventuring with the NE rogue for a few months, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the CE barbarian to come to enjoy his company, drink with the man, maybe even come to trust him. He might even put himself at some marginal risk for him (though he wouldn't die for him). Evil doesn't mean friendship is impossible. Just harder. Same for love, actually.


I agree.

Have you read the War of the Spider Queen series of books? Pharaun Mizzrym is the epitome of likable chaotic evil. I think he considered Ryld a friend and genuinely enjoyed his company, as much as spider-kissing Drow can, at any rate. Regardless, that didn't prevent him from betraying Ryld when it came to his own advantage.

Duke of URL
2008-03-28, 01:36 PM
One thing that I think several people here have said that I disagree with is about chaotic evil and the concept of friendship. Yes, you should be number one, and their needs are secondary to yours, but I see no reason to say that CE characters cannot form bonds of friendship, especially with NE or CN characters who don't mind their occasional destructive acts. After adventuring with the NE rogue for a few months, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the CE barbarian to come to enjoy his company, drink with the man, maybe even come to trust him. He might even put himself at some marginal risk for him (though he wouldn't die for him). Evil doesn't mean friendship is impossible. Just harder. Same for love, actually.

Bingo. It's really a "macro" vs. "micro" situation. Evil folks, even chaotic evil folks, can have friendships, relationships, care for their children, etc.

The real definition of an alignment isn't this type of interpersonal relationship, it is how the character will act toward someone he doesn't know, or knows but has no personal relationship with them.

A "good" person will go out of their way to help a stranger in need. A "neutral" will do so if there's something in it for them. An "evil" person will twist the situation to his best advantage (either kicking 'em while they're down or demanding unreasonable rewards for assistance... or both).

StGlebidiah
2008-03-28, 02:29 PM
Dorian Gray! He was definitely plunging into the depths of depravity. And tons of people "loved" him... and tons of people hated him. Good story though.

Just try to be creative. Sow discord while appearing well-meaning. Remember that most good acts can become evil if taken too far, or if a "simple mistake" occurs.

Zen Master
2008-03-28, 02:37 PM
How do you do this without making an ass of yourself an alienating the party?

CE doesn't mean 'instant killing spree at any given moment'. Or for some CE characters it might - those that do not live past puberty, for instance.

Chaotic means among other things that you are impulsive, have little or no regard for rules and laws, and are not generally trustworthy, because you are not likely to feel bound by your own word.

Evil means selfish to the point of hurting others to get what you want - be it yours to take or not.

A guy like that could be your neighbor, it could be your boss at work, it could be you. It does not imply killing sprees, it might even be a pacifist. Maybe not the kind of pacifist who shuns all forms of violence - maybe just the kind that pretends to, and likes others to fight his own battles, possibly without knowing so.

Calinero
2008-03-28, 02:53 PM
Hm....so, Lawful characters are governed by their respect for the rules. Neutral characters are governed by self interest. And Chaotic characters are governed by their desires. Does that seem to be an apt summation?

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-28, 03:13 PM
I don't personally think selfishness should define 100% of what CE is. I see CE as being free of structure & willing/wanting to sin. With a contempt/derision for the establishment & many of the gods, the CE character might reject them, abuse them or attempt to undermine them out of pettiness or spite.

What I was going to write got a little to close to violating the religion policy. So I decided not to go in that direction. (Nothing nasty, don't worry :P)

I'm not really convinced that it's especially evil, or could make much sense, unless evil itself is a corrupting force, (like radiation, not "actions leading to a slippery slope" corruption). If it's corruption though, the fact they're undermining order isn't really the point of the character.

Unbalanced emotions are appropriate for any evil, especially Chaotic, but emotions themselves shouldn't be evil. Or even unbalanced ones.

Attacking order out of pettiness doesn't make any sense, except if your character is a strawman for someone else's argument. And that's not an appropriate PC.

This isn't meant to be flaming or anything, I can see how this might be interpreted as hate filled and dripping with venom, but that's not the intention. I just don't think either archetype works, as is. They are used as evil archetypes, but that was mostly for political reasons.

And I don't think anyone wants to cheapen evil by using it just to describe "the other side".

Roderick_BR
2008-03-28, 03:14 PM
Hm....a common conflict I've seen here is what really defines the difference between CE and CN. I agree that a CE would be more....well....evil, but to what extent? I don't think they would go out of their way to be evil. That strikes me as a stupid thing to do, in many situations, and I don't want my character to be stupid. I'm thinking this: A CN character does whatever they feel like, as long as it doesn't horribly inconvenience them. If they don't like an authority, then they'll ignore it, but they won't go out of their way to disrupt established laws just because they're chaotic. A CE character would be almost the same, except 'whatever they feel like' tends to involve a bit more violence or cruelty. That doesn't mean they go around eating babies (a popular example), but in a case where it costs them nothing to 'be good,' and costs them nothing to eat the baby, they're probably going to eat the baby.
For fun, of course.
That's a good (evil?) take on it. A CN will just do what is better for him, with little regard to authorities and/or with impulsiveness. He'll not get out of his way to help or hurt people.
A CN will do the same, except that hurting people is considered the easiest(or even first) option.
A CG character will help the guy mugged by the bandits, or look for help.
A CN will just walk away, or look for help. In any case, if he does help (himself, or looking for help) he'll do so if it brings him some benefit.
A CE will not join the bandits (not always), but will stay away, like the CN. After all is done, and the bandits are gone, he'll check if the victim doesn't have any coin the bandits missed, and maybe even kick the guy (to see if he's alive). He's already almost death, why not have a litle fun?
Or, using a comic book example, from DareDevil. Some guy steals the victim's money, then starts to beat him up, the victim asks "I already gave you all my money, what more you want?" and the guy, swinging a baseball bat at the victim replies "have some fun". That is being CE, ir NE, at best. (for lulz, DareDevil shows up at the exact time, beats the bandit up, hogtie him into the bat, and throws him into the police office. Some heroes can be a bit sadistic sometimes "for fun" too).
Thing is, a CE will not start to kill everything that moves (unless that's what he likes to do), but will often do "evil" things, to get a chuckle out of it. Sometimes he doesn't even need to kill thing, just being a horrible jerk is enough sometimes. "Will mommy be okay?" "Don't worry, kid, I'm sure the orcs found your mommy tasty enough."

Severus
2008-03-28, 04:00 PM
Chaotic evil isn't chaotic stupid.

Chaotic evil in its purest form is a sociopath. he doesn't care what anybody things. But not caring doesn't mean he doesn't understand consequences. He may find this tavern keeper annoying and want to kill him. But he's not going to do it in front of a bunch of witnesses that will get him killed in turn.

He might even find that you need to work with a group and obey rules to get something you want. The point being that it is his desire for the thing that makes him 'obey'. He sees no intrinsic value in other people or their desires or society's laws. They are merely impediments to fulfilling his desires.

He could be a very smooth friendly, go-along and get-along kinda guy who everybody thinks is good... who has been robbing and killing people discretely for years.

wodan46
2008-03-28, 04:11 PM
I once heard a fairly good summary of the axes. Keep in mind that no character acts always one or always the other.

Good=Value others over self
Evil=Value self over others
Chaotic=Value local over global
Lawful=Value global over local

I suspect that many people go through their entire lives being Neutral Evil, but they don't get killed by adventurers for XP. They're just the selfish worker who values their gain above others, and slacks off and takes credit for other people's work.

As for D&D, a chaotic evil character generally has 2 central attitudes:
1. They generally do actions for their own gain.
2. They are willing to do such actions outside the channels given by society.

A Chaotic Evil character might not have any problem about killing someone, but they don't just go around killing people for the hell of it. Most won't do it unless they actually have a reason to do it, and a belief that they can get away with it.

Chaotic doesn't mean you have to be ruled by your emotions and do the first thing that pops in your head without planning, and Evil doesn't mean you spend all day kicking puppies. In the real world, such things are more complex, and the same can be true for a D&D character, if you so choose.

The_Snark
2008-03-28, 04:39 PM
Hm....a common conflict I've seen here is what really defines the difference between CE and CN. I agree that a CE would be more....well....evil, but to what extent? I don't think they would go out of their way to be evil. That strikes me as a stupid thing to do, in many situations, and I don't want my character to be stupid. I'm thinking this: A CN character does whatever they feel like, as long as it doesn't horribly inconvenience them. If they don't like an authority, then they'll ignore it, but they won't go out of their way to disrupt established laws just because they're chaotic. A CE character would be almost the same, except 'whatever they feel like' tends to involve a bit more violence or cruelty. That doesn't mean they go around eating babies (a popular example), but in a case where it costs them nothing to 'be good,' and costs them nothing to eat the baby, they're probably going to eat the baby.

I think it's hard to establish a general rule about what is Chaotic Neutral and what is Chaotic Evil, but for your character, I'd use the following guideline: Do you have standards?

In other words, are there things you won't do? I played a changeling con artist, for example, who really didn't care much about stealing from other people (not friends, but everyone else was fair game) or messing with their minds. Violence, on the other hand, rather shocked her, which gave her an amusing moral high ground when speaking with the party paladin.

That isn't to say CN characters can't be violent, or that CE characters never have standards. The stereotypical CN barbarian doesn't have any problems with violence, and it's easy to imagine CE people being disgusted with certain types of crimes. But in general, a CN person ought to have slightly higher standards, something to differentiate them from "will do just about anything if it benefits self". Perhaps the barbarian believes it's disgusting to lie, cheat, or poison an enemy, believing that it's cowardice to strike at an enemy so sneakily. Maybe they don't much care about society as a whole and don't have a lot of trouble with violence, but would still shun the company of bandits and murderers, or try to hunt them down (and possibly turn them in for a profit.) Maybe they're just normal people who don't much care for being tied down. If a CN character is cheerfully and utterly without standards or limits, they're really not CN anymore; they're Chaotic Evil.

Mut
2008-03-29, 04:22 AM
Coming at this from a different angle: The key thing is that the other players have to have fun when you're playing the chaotic evil PC. Their characters don't have to. So, if you can, go for an evil character concept that is entertaining. Think of movie villains or anti-heroes who have great screen presence or who are fun to hate.

Along similar lines, see if you can think of ways to act nasty that aren't going to box the other players in. For example, if you're sarcastic and generally verbally abusive, that can be pretty brutal for the characters on the receiving end -- but there's no mechanical effect and it's not an automatic party-breaker in the way that drawing steel on another PC is. (You have to be careful not to push the PCs so far that they draw on you, of course. Unless that's also part of your evil plan...) A little goes a long way here -- the players will remember the zinger insult and forget the ten minutes you were quiet -- so don't overdo it. it's also better if your aggression is worked out on NPCs that the rest of the party doesn't like (there're always a couple), rather than other PCs, babies, puppies, etc. Or, going in a very different direction, you could play a character who's evil but kind of dumb. Then it becomes a game with the other players: how are they going to trick your PC into not doing that bad stuff this time?

Oh, and plan ahead a bit for the inevitable time when your character steps over the line and gets himself into trouble. ('Cuz, you know, it's going to happen sooner or later. Weapon-toting sociopaths tend to have short lifespans...)

RyanM
2008-03-29, 12:34 PM
I'd say that for a chaotic evil chararcter, there's really 3 more axes that define your character: Impulse control, intelligence, and malevolence.

Belkar is pretty obviously low control, low intelligence, moderate malevolence.

Malevolence is going to be one of the more fundamental traits. That's really what defines the type of evil the your character is. An extremely malevolent character will be like an evil cleric, someone who puts harming others above all else, including their own welfare. Very low malevolence is someone who is merely a sociopath; they have no compunctions against killing, even torture and other "evil" acts, if it furthers their own goals, but they don't particularly enjoy "evil," either. In the middle is someone who still looks out for number one, but genuinely enjoys "evil," rather than merely being ambivalent to it.

Low malevolence is going to get along with the party best, since you'd have no real desire to do "evil" things, just to do whatever is most expedient. Medium would be more fun to play, though (at least for me. Fried babies are delicious!). High malevolence, you could probably only get away with in an evil campaign.

Impulsiveness and intelligence are pretty self explanatory in how they affect your style of play.

NamelessArchon
2008-03-30, 01:25 PM
I've seen several references above to "Thou Shalt Not Play A CE Cleric" in a PC party. While doing so with a paladin in the group might quickly result in friction and/or party disintegrations for obvious reasons, must it be the case for all CE clerics?

I ask because I've been considering my house rule forbidding E characters of any sort. For the mature RPers of the group, it's probably not needed, and I'm quite sure I can squash the less mature ones. So, if I'm interested in allowing my players to expand their experiences, and to tell stories with some anti-hero elements in them, I need to consider what happens when CE characters are added to the mix. While the consensus is that CE characters can be added if played maturely, CE clerics seem to be less so.

I would think that a CE cleric is ideally suited to "get a pass" from the party, since you're the one typically responsible for patching the party up after the latest round of BadGuyDuJour_01 chewed them up. Sure, if you're out trumpeting the glory of EvilBadGod_01 to everyone you meet and sacrificing sentients along the way, you're going to rub your group raw pretty quickly, but couldn't you be a little more low-key in your faith?

However, my question is this:
Is it feasible to play a CE cleric in a non-evil party (ala Belkar the Cleric) without deviating too much from your CE alignment or having your group lynch you for the good of all?

Any ideas on how a player would work that out, if the goal was to actually play that character and not just screw up the gaming session?

Taking the Realms as an example for a moment, it's well known that people make prayers to the evil gods as warding off of evil. To Umberlee before a ship voyage, to Beshaba to ward off bad luck in business. Does a setting where this is the case make it easier to tolerate a cleric of an evil deity in the party?

Thoughts?

Zincorium
2008-03-30, 01:49 PM
@nameless:

I'm assuming you're playing in FR based on the dieties, yeah?

The problem with evil clerics is that they are, with no exceptions and no counterbalance, serving deities that fundamentally don't like people's lives and happiness. Paying lip service to an evil goddess who could utterly destroy your life is one thing, serving them is tantamount to stating that when they destroy people, that's what should happen.

Nevermind the fact that most clerics of evil deities wouldn't be allowed to hide their faith, and you're asking the PCs to accept a walking landmine into their ranks.

The healing argument isn't any good either, as evil clerics don't get to spontaneously heal, and therefore they'd have to pray to an evil god to heal non-evil members of the party, which isn't likely in character.

Finally, as to the 'couldn't you be a little more low key in your faith?'.

Not and realistically be a cleric. Remember, this is FR, everyone is a worshiper of some god, you have to really stand out in your faith and piety to be granted powers beyond the general favor everyone else gets.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-30, 02:43 PM
A Chaotic Evil Cleric could get along with the rest of the party, with a few reasonable assumptions.

That character is allowed to be secret, can do whatever they want with their powers, and doesn't necessarily have to believe in the same agenda as their Dark God.

Rather, it's a relationship of convenience, or ignorance. Sure the guy gets all sorts of magical power, but the god is getting something out of it too. More power in the form of followers, sacrifices, or simply as a consequence of channeling the magic he has given. Maybe he "gets the guys soul". It can even be a great deal for the Cleric. Sure he goes to place with a lot of fire when he dies, but even then, they may well be able to continue doing whatever they want. Evil is about easy answers after all.

You've got to admit that it makes more sense to do what nightmarish entities ask of you if the consequences are more beneficial than negative.

Cleric who "made a deal" works better than Cleric who chooses to get "beaten up for no reason". (I mean by their god, not by adventurers)