Will Roy meet Miko?

[Calinero]

Something that I actually just thought of....if someone else has thought of this before, i haven't seen it. Then again, I haven't looked everywhere. So, it's entirely possible.

Is Roy going to meet Miko in the Lawful Good afterlife? I mean, despite her many flaws, Miko did try to be Lawful Good. I'm not entirely sure she would have gotten in, though...if Roy was close to getting filed as Neutral Good, I can't see that Miko would have an easy time of it. But, it remains a possibility...and if Miko isn't in the Lawful Good afterlife, then where is she?

[Surgoshan]

But Miko wasn't Lawful Good. She was Lawful Stupid. *cough*

She might still be waiting in line on the other side of the mountain.

[Glome]

Miko is either in Arcadia or Mechanus. I don't see her making it into Celestia. Order just takes too much precedence for her over good.

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

Soon stated that he and the paladins would usher Miko to her destination
I quote:
"Even now we are fading to the Celestial Realm. We will usher you to your destination as well."
how ever he says she can't become a paladin again.
I quote:
"... No.":smallamused:
however he says Miko's horse, Windstriker, has been waiting for her and will vist her as much as he can. So it's obvious that Windstriker is in the Celestial Realm and since Soon says "He will vist you as much as he is able." I'm guessing that Miko isn't going into the Celestial Realm for reasons such as Soon saying the paladins and him are fading to the realm and they will usher Miko to her destination, not the Celestial Realm. And Soon also says Windstriker will visit her as much as he can. So it's obvious she's not going to the Celestial Realm, however she's going some where that paladins and Paladin Mounts can journey to. I'm guessing she's now in Ysgard (pg. 158 of the DMG).
Rest In Peace Miko
your actions were flawed
but you meant well
*bows head in honor*

[mause]

mmm It's hard to know so lets rise a poll
I think the giant actually read this kind of things

[David Argall]

Is Roy going to meet Miko in the Lawful Good afterlife?

It seems more and more likely we have seen the last of Miko. Any reappearance will have to take quite a few pages, pages that look to have other purposes.

if Miko isn't in the Lawful Good afterlife, then where is she?
She is likely in the LG afterlife. That is a large "area" and there is no need for the two to meet. She fell from being a paladin, not from being LG.

[Half-blood]

Very Doubtful. Even though Miko Made it to Celestia. She Would be on the other side of the Mountain. And I personally Doubt that Roy or Miko would be willing to make A long trip to the other side of the mountain to see eachother.

[Surgoshan]

Roy wouldn't go see her, but I could see Miko going to the other side of the mountain to forgive Roy for all his mistakes and condescend at him about how he should be grateful they let him in after he conspired with etc etc.

[Mr._Michael]

Hey, she's only been there for a couple of weeks... she'll get around to it before the end of the Month.

;)

[Halvormerlinaky]

I'd vote Mechanus as her final destination. She was all about Law, and little to do with Good. That's why she fell from Paladinhood. She placed more emphasis on the letter of the law than its intent, i.e. the good.

[FujinAkari]

It is certainly possible. Miko was Lawful Good for basically her entire life, and only her actions the two days before her death are in question. Of those, very few seem to be chaotic, and almost none seem evil (though one can make a case for attacking Hinjo.)

Thus, I think it likely she ended up in Celestia. As to meeting Roy? Unlikely, at least at this juncture. I think it more likely that she run into Eugene some point after Roy has been resurrected and the two of them get into it, with her demanding to be able to talk to Roy and 'help him' defeat Xykon (in her own twisted definition of help,) while Eugene wants nothing more to do with him.

[Calinero]

If she does end up in the LG afterlife, and does meet Roy, the main benefit that I can see would be that she might not be so self-righteous any more. I'm sure that dying managed to give her some perspective on things....

[hanzo66]

If she does end up in the LG afterlife, and does meet Roy, the main benefit that I can see would be that she might not be so self-righteous any more. I'm sure that dying managed to give her some perspective on things....

Either that or she will be convinced that the gods have damned her to an Evil-aligned plane as punishment and the "Good" imagery around her are merely illusions of some sorts used by the gods to tempt her.


Or something along the lines...

[Tempest Fennac]

While it's probably differenin OotS, don't Paladins usually go to a special part of Celestia which is further up the mountain? She won't be able to go there due to not being a Paladin, but she could end up in a normal part of Celestia.

[The Hop Goblin]

I'm looking forward to Miko getting as brain-fried as Roy's Dad that Roy is in Celestia.

Miko would have an absolute meltdown, that OOTS has managed to fool even the gods. And since the gods are flawed and/or don't know what is right/wrong; then it is up to Miko, in her divine duty vested upon her by some sort of deity above the 12, to set them right.

Miko could very well end up as a "Kefka" type character. Possibly even to the point of wanting to set Snarl free in order to "defeat it" and set the universe aright.

[Tempest Fennac]

I can't see that happening. I'm assuming she realised that she was wrong from talking with Kim Soon just before she died.

[Gamerlord]

how dare you even mention miko the fool she dosen't even deserve to EXIST!

[Zherog]

Soon stated that he and the paladins would usher Miko to her destination
I quote:
"Even now we are fading to the Celestial Realm. We will usher you to your destination as well."

He never says her destination is Celestia. And, in fact, "your destination as well" seems to imply that hers is someplace different.

[R.O.A.]

No, they are in different afterlives. When Roy first dies (#486), he comments on how empty it is in LG heaven, considering the big battle that he was just killed in. He is told that he is there as a worshipper of the Northern Gods - the Southern God's followers (i.e. Miko and anyone else from azure city) are processed elsewhere.
Although they may meet if he goes back up the mountain, I doubt she can go where he is now.

[whitemane]

OK... I guess I'll throw my 2 copper pieces in...

I think that Miko is in Celestia along with Roy. For the longest time before her death, she maintained her lawful-good alignment (otherwise she would've fallen much sooner than she did.) Just because someone is condescending and arrogant that doesn't mean that they aren't a good person, and I think everyone would agree that Miko was honestly trying to be a good person. Along those lines, the celestials obviously put alot of emphasis on the intent of the person when judging them (take a look at the celestial that was evaluating Roy in #490.)

That having been said, I don't think Roy and Miko will ever meet up for a couple of reasons....

1. Miko is on the "other side" of the mountain.
2. Miko's idea of a good time involves meditation, discipline, abstenance and hunger... All things that really preclude interacting with other people. Couple Miko beginning a period of meditation with Post-Mortem Time Disassociation Disorder(PMTDD), and she has probably been sitting somewhere on the other side of the mountain contemplating her navel this whole time.
3. On the off-chance that Miko has decided to cut loose now that she is in the afterlife, what do you think will happen the first time she tries partaking of sensual pleasures? (Yes, I'm assuming that her life of self-denial means that she is rather naive in the area of sensual pleasures.) Now couple that with with the PMTDD, and she might've been in the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands this whole time! (Or at least, the southern gods equivalent of it...)

So, long and the short of it... Yes, I think Miko is in Celestia, but she'll never meet up with Roy because she's too busy having a good time (one way or the other...)

As with all things, your mileage may vary...

[King of Nowhere]

I don't know where Rich sent her, but if Eugene was found worth of the LG afterlife (after the blood oath is fixed), then probably Miko will go there.
If I where called to judge her, I'd send her to celestia, but only after forcing her to "school": her intentions were good, she failed only because she never understood what "being good" really meant. So I'd call someone to give her lessons and put her into particular situations to make her understand her mistakes. Something like

"Miko, being good don't mean just fighting evil. You shouldn't wander around smiting everyone who triggers your detect evil"
:miko: "Clearly, you're an agent of an evil overlord and you're trying to talk me out of my divine mission! Die, spawnling of hell!" Slash! Slash! Slash! Slash! Slash!
"Sigh. That will be harder than I initially tought"

When she finally understand the real nature of good, I'd let her go to celestia.
In that case she is still out of the afterlife, and, knowing her, she will stay for years.

Anyway, it's highly unlikely that Rich did this.

[jamroar]

He never says her destination is Celestia. And, in fact, "your destination as well" seems to imply that hers is someplace different.


Soon is in no position to escort her anywhere else in the planes. From his own words and game rules, they aren't travelling to the afterlife by their own will, they are being dragged there by the weight of their LG karma. How they judge her there is another matter, and Soon is possibly unsure of this.

Although, later strips would indicate somewhat more favorable chances for her than could be expected.


*Groan*

Roy is in the afterlife for worshippers of the gods of the northern pantheon.

Miko for the southern.

This was (deliberately?) shown to be not the case. Roy runs into the Bandanna Paladin on the way up the Mount. They are only in-processed on the other side of the mountain, they share the same afterlife.

[Prowl]

My guess is that she ended up in Limbo. While she may have been LG for most of her life, I would assess that she was borderline on "good" to begin with, and having murdered her own Lord on false grounds could well have kicked her into Neutral along both alignment axes. If not, Mechanus then seems the likely option - with all her appearances in the strip, there's actually very little from her that qualifies as "good"; everything she does that could be construed as good seems to stem from overlawfulness rather than compassion.

[shakes019]

I think it's unlikely that Rich will decide to tell more of Miko's story. The fact that she died at the end of the Soon's Gate storyline suggests to me that Rich intended for her story to end at the same time. The fact that she doesn't get closure with the OOTS doesn't matter to the OOTS, because they did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) get closure with her.

If we see Miko again, I would think that it would either be in a separate story centred on her, or in an epilogue to the main story as a one-off joke.

As to her situation, I believe that she probably went on into Celestia, having earned her heavenly reward. She probably didn't enjoy the assessment process, as she was never penitent, but I think she managed to get through okay.

And I doubt that anyone will be putting any effort into finding her body or trying to raise her at this point.

[Dohmaker]

I'm guessing it really depends on how Soon's speech affected her. He made her realise her faults, and then like all other spirits she'd get her turn having her case checked by a deva.

That part would be far from being pretty. If what Soon said sunk in, she might just be repentant and seeking Roy to ask for forgiveness.

If it didn't, she probably would have started smashing the deva (instead of slashing, they don't seem to have their weapons there) for telling her she was wrong while calling her a devil in disguise.

[Wreckingrocc]

*Groan*

Roy is in the afterlife for worshippers of the gods of the northern pantheon.

Miko for the southern.

Update: Oh, sorry R.O.A., didn't see your comment. Seriously, though, it's sad that only me and him have noticed it.

[shakes019]

*Groan*

Roy is in the afterlife for worshippers of the gods of the northern pantheon.

Miko for the southern.

However, you can see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)that worshippers of the Southern pantheon end up on the same mountain.

[Qov]

I agree that she made the Lawful Good afterlife.

She is annoying, insane and sanctimonious, but the only time she actually broke the law was when she truly believed that it was a false law unjustly promulgated by an impostor. She believed to the end that she was guided by her gods at every step, and she did do the right thing when given the choice between personal vengeance and maintaining her sworn oath to defend the Sapphire. Even though she made the wrong move there.

Her Deva will chew her out for thinking it's all about her, and not checking the facts, but given that her intentions were lawful and good, she passes. Roy will never meet her. It's a big, well-run afterlife and Roy will only meet people that he should meet.

[Wreckingrocc]

Okay, but Roy isn't on the mountain, is he?

[Prowl]

If we see Miko again, I would think that it would either be in a separate story centred on her, or in an epilogue to the main story as a one-off joke.


She's an ideal subject for a "prequel" story on her life and experiences. She must have gone through some interesting times to become the most powerful paladin in Azure City, one powerful enough to subdue a party of six ~14-16th level PCs.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

A few things...

1. The Rage Against Miko posters: Do you hate "Miko," or do your hate your DM's control freak girlfriend who plays a Paladin in your games? :smallannoyed: Some of the folks who hate Miko hate her beyond anything she has done in the strip.

2. As has been said before, Miko is being "processed" in the Southern Kingdoms area of Celestia, so the odds of her running into Roy are slim, but not non-existant. Roy saw another Azure City Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) nearby as he was climbing... But either way, Miko's Processing Officer may have an even MORE difficult task than Roy's did.

3. Miko is Fallen, but she never lost her LG status, as shown in Soon Kim's final conversation with Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Celestia is in layers, with those who barely made the cut at the base of the mountain, next to the Celestial Sea. Non-Fallen Paladins, and the Celestial Stables are up at the top. I see Miko working the docks for a while, maybe gutting angel fish.

4. What's the point of Falling, if a chance at redemption isn't even available? :smallconfused:

And one more thing:

People are making comments that Roy is coming up on 100 strips dead... Miko has also been dead for quite some time, yet she usually gets a new, and hotly debated thread about once a week. Although she is dead, I don't think her story is quite over just yet.

[shakes019]

She's an ideal subject for a "prequel" story on her life and experiences. She must have gone through some interesting times to become the most powerful paladin in Azure City, one powerful enough to subdue a party of six ~14-16th level PCs.

Actually, that's not a bad idea.

[Qov]

Okay, but Roy isn't on the mountain, is he?

He went back to the celestial realm after being disgusted by the psychic. You think he'll just stand at the edge on the cloud forever, or go back through the revolving door and go see his brother?

[Calinero]

I would be interested in what would happen if Miko and Roy met in the afterlife, but I don't think that I really want it to happen. At the moment, Miko has a sort of...resolution. I like the way her character ended up, where I can almost fool myself into thinking she learned her lesson (though I'm sure she hasn't.) If she is shown again as a character, she would be immediately boring unless she retained some of her conflict. I almost want to just let her rest in peace.

On a side note...
So, there is a Lawful Good afterlife. We all know this. I haven't read all the materials out there, but I'm assuming that there is another afterlife for each alignment. Are they totally separate? Because if they are, that would really suck. Once you die, you can never see any of your other aligned friends, for the rest of eternity? Roy will never see Elan again? Probably not Varsuvius either, since I suspect that he/she is NG. If that is the case, I find it to be quite depressing.

[Qov]

Once you die, you can never see any of your other aligned friends, for the rest of eternity?

Well, there was that evil adventuring party. Maybe you can use plane shift spells to go visiting other alignments' afterlives.

[Glome]

On a side note...
So, there is a Lawful Good afterlife. We all know this. I haven't read all the materials out there, but I'm assuming that there is another afterlife for each alignment. Are they totally separate? Because if they are, that would really suck. Once you die, you can never see any of your other aligned friends, for the rest of eternity? Roy will never see Elan again? Probably not Varsuvius either, since I suspect that he/she is NG. If that is the case, I find it to be quite depressing.

There are actually 13 different planes. Not only ones for each alignment, but for alignments inbetween those alignments. In a system so finally-tuned, I find it hard to believe that Miko would have been considered to have the same alignment as Roy. I'm betting on Arcadia myself. Here's more information
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane

And the planes are connected to nearby planes. So a neutral good character wouldn't have much problem visiting a lawful good character. However, a lawful good and chaotic good character would have problems meeting and a lawful good meeting with a chaotic evil character would be a very difficult meeting indeed. Even then they could probably meet at the Concordant Opposition, where nobody dares try anything lest they piss off the Lady of Pain.

[whitemane]

So, there is a Lawful Good afterlife. We all know this. I haven't read all the materials out there, but I'm assuming that there is another afterlife for each alignment. Are they totally separate? Because if they are, that would really suck. Once you die, you can never see any of your other aligned friends, for the rest of eternity? Roy will never see Elan again? Probably not Varsuvius either, since I suspect that he/she is NG. If that is the case, I find it to be quite depressing.

This has actually been a philosophical concept that has confused me in the real world for quite some time. Using that as a premise and the concept of Heaven and Hell in modern Christian thought, if a very good person marries a very bad person and the two truly love eachother and both die, how can the good person truly be in Heaven when they know that their true love is suffering in Hell? Wouldn't that mean that they were suffering in Heaven with that knowledge?

Of course, this assumes that the laws of reality are the same in Heaven and Hell as they are on Earth....

Speaking from a less philosophical and more game mechanics stand point... If I was GM, I would rule that people residing in most of the planes of "Law" could probably petition their deites to allow for visits to their friends in the other planes. If they also happen to be in the "Good" planes they would probably have a reasonable chance of being allowed the visit unless it was to one of the "Evil" planes of existence. The ones in the "Neutral" (on the Law-Chaos scheme of things) and Chaos planes could probably try and sneak out or find a way to visit them, but if they are in some of the "Evil" planes of existence then they probably are doing so to escape the torment of the plane, not because they miss their buddies.

This message is totally IMHO...

[T-O-E]

She's an ideal subject for a "prequel" story on her life and experiences. She must have gone through some interesting times to become the most powerful paladin in Azure City, one powerful enough to subdue a party of six ~14-16th level PCs.

The party was severely weakened at the time.

Roy had to fight with a club, not his greatsword which he had proficiency in.
V could not cast spells, making him/her useless. Although s/he did cast a fireball, which Miko dodged.
Haley could not use her arrows and was forced to use Elan's rapier.
Elan had a broken arm and could not fight.
Durkon refused to fight.
Belkar was being trampled by Miko's steed Windstriker.

[recluso]

Am I the first to mention that when Miko is in the LG afterlife, she doesn't need to stop climbing at the first tier?

oots#493:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html

"You climb the mountain until you reach the level of enlightenment that you're happy with. Simple, really."

Given that the even Archon isn't allowed to get to the top (True perfect enlightenment, Really?, What's that like, Beats me, I'm not allowed up there) Miko probably won't get there either, but if the climbing every tier takes progressively longer - as I would expect - she is probably still climbing.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I see Miko working the docks for a while, maybe gutting angel fish.


:miko: Knife goes in, guts come out, that's what Celestia Seafood Concern is all about!

Seriously though, Miko is probably not going to want to see any of the Order until she has proof positive that they are on the same side she's on. She was surrounded by almost the entire Sapphire Guard and is probably getting their input on the situation, but I think it would take being able to scry on Haley leading the Resisty (especially the parts where she puts Belkar in his place) to make her opinion on the order do a 180...or at least a 135.

[David Argall]

There are actually 13 different planes. Not only ones for each alignment, but for alignments inbetween those alignments.
That is 16, as is described in DMG.


In a system so finally-tuned, I find it hard to believe that Miko would have been considered to have the same alignment as Roy. I'm betting on Arcadia myself.
The Buxenus layer of Arcadia is not unreasonable. However any detailed listing of personalities can get way beyond 16 types and quite different types can end up in the same category when we then apply a different set of rules.


And the planes are connected to nearby planes. So a neutral good character wouldn't have much problem visiting a lawful good character. However, a lawful good and chaotic good character would have problems meeting and a lawful good meeting with a chaotic evil character would be a very difficult meeting indeed. Even then they could probably meet at the Concordant Opposition,
The main problem here would likely be a lack of will. Going to a particular afterlife would be much like going off to college, or leaving it, or moving... You often resolve to stay in touch, but rarely do so for long. So you will likely just lose touch.

[Lupy]

What if she meets Roy in the tavern of one night Stands... :smallamused:


Seriously though, I think Miko is right where she should be, in Celestia trying to convince someone to let her lead a crusade into the abyss. And I would love a book about what kind of Soulforge caused the most powerful Epic Paladin in the world to go down the long path to Mikodom... I mean, she is the most lawful character we've seen yet, and she has probably killed more evil npcs and characters than anyone else... But how did she get there? I mean, I wana know.

[dworkin]

What if she meets Roy in the tavern of one night Stands... :smallamused:

I agree, Roy gets browbeaten by his family to relax and Miko is letting her hair down for the first time in existence. They meet in the bar which is kept dim to preserve anonymity and eventually realise who they're baring their soul to. Hilarity ensues.

[Dode]

Ahahahahahahahahaha

no.

[Dode]

Oh, and Acheron seems fitting for Miko.

[David Argall]

At this point, there is a very good chance we are not going to see Roy again until he is raised. If he was going to be back on screen, a strip of him asking to view Xykon and then fading to the tank, fits quite well. Since that didn't happen, it seems logical to just leave him on the sidelines.

[Dervag]

I can't see that happening. I'm assuming she realised that she was wrong from talking with Kim Soon just before she died.Well, I think she at least considered the possibility that she may have been mistaken.


how dare you even mention miko the fool she dosen't even deserve to EXIST!What boots it?


Oh, and Acheron seems fitting for Miko.Why?

[Dode]

Why?It's a place for the self-deluded who like nothing more then mindlessly fighting evil things. Sounds like Miko's version of heaven, really.

[Dervag]

It's a place for the self-deluded who like nothing more then mindlessly fighting evil things. Sounds like Miko's version of heaven, really.I would argue that delusional insanity does not alter one's alignment.

Miko has always attempted to act like a Lawful Good person. She has committed many acts of self-sacrifice for the sake of objectively good ends- running into burning buildings to save people, attacking an entire tribe of ogres at great personal risk to rescue their captive, and so forth.

She has two major strikes against her.

One is that she is an "antagonist" character. The events of the plot have conspired against her so that she ends up fighting the sympathetic characters. Because of this, we don't like her. But that has nothing to do with her alignment.

Two is that she's been driven completely bonkers. I suspect that she was always mentally unstable (her upbringing left her unbalanced) and antisocial in the sense of obnoxious. But recent events have compounded the problem. Think about things from her perspective.

-She is sent to apprehend a group of "dangerous criminals who have imperiled the stability of reality." Now, they may not know what they've done, but Miko does. She has every reason to assume that these are some kind of ferocious cultists trying to open the gates.
-As she tracks them down, she encounters many people who tell her that they've done horrible things to them. Like that dwarven blacksmith.
-She finally runs into them. They refuse to come along peaceably and manage to injure her several times. One of them, who is apparently OK, does surrender and persuades her that they aren't evil. Keep in mind that there are ways to fool a paladin's detect evil abilities. And that one of them is pretty clearly evil, and generally behaves like a psychotic murderer.
-They go through all manner of bizarre misfortunes because (from Miko's perspective) they are greedy foolish people.
-They finally get to Azure City, where Lord Shojo puts them on trial. Meanwhile, the psychotic murder breaks out, kills a guard, and leads Miko through a horribly dangerous chase. Then, Shojo, who to the best of Miko's knowledge is a babbling senile loon, lets them go and starts treating them like favored heroes.
-Miko goes out on a dangerous mission. She is nearly killed. When she comes back, she hears Shojo explicitly confess to having schemed with the Order of the Stick, rigged the trial in their favor. And now he's sending them off to another one of the gates. Oh, and incidentally, he expresses disdain for lawful alignment and paladin oaths while he's at it.

Now, we know what kind of person Miko is, and we know a lot of things she didn't see happen. But Miko doesn't. And if all you knew were the above events, would it be that surprising if you freaked out and decided you were surrounded by an evil conspiracy? Especially when, based on the very words of Shojo and Roy, you are surrounded by a conspiracy?

So she ends up paranoid and absolutely certain that both the Order of the Stick and Shojo are evil. If she were right, her own actions would not be evil at all. But she's totally wrong, mainly because she only ever saw one side of the picture.


To sum it up, I think that Miko has a lot of issues, but is basically lawful good underneath those issues.

[kpenguin]

I would argue that delusional insanity does not alter one's alignment.

Miko has always attempted to act like a Lawful Good person. She has committed many acts of self-sacrifice for the sake of objectively good ends- running into burning buildings to save people, attacking an entire tribe of ogres at great personal risk to rescue their captive, and so forth.

She has two major strikes against her.

One is that she is an "antagonist" character. The events of the plot have conspired against her so that she ends up fighting the sympathetic characters. Because of this, we don't like her. But that has nothing to do with her alignment.

Two is that she's been driven completely bonkers. I suspect that she was always mentally unstable (her upbringing left her unbalanced) and antisocial in the sense of obnoxious. But recent events have compounded the problem. Think about things from her perspective.

-She is sent to apprehend a group of "dangerous criminals who have imperiled the stability of reality." Now, they may not know what they've done, but Miko does. She has every reason to assume that these are some kind of ferocious cultists trying to open the gates.
-As she tracks them down, she encounters many people who tell her that they've done horrible things to them. Like that dwarven blacksmith.
-She finally runs into them. They refuse to come along peaceably and manage to injure her several times. One of them, who is apparently OK, does surrender and persuades her that they aren't evil. Keep in mind that there are ways to fool a paladin's detect evil abilities. And that one of them is pretty clearly evil, and generally behaves like a psychotic murderer.
-They go through all manner of bizarre misfortunes because (from Miko's perspective) they are greedy foolish people.
-They finally get to Azure City, where Lord Shojo puts them on trial. Meanwhile, the psychotic murder breaks out, kills a guard, and leads Miko through a horribly dangerous chase. Then, Shojo, who to the best of Miko's knowledge is a babbling senile loon, lets them go and starts treating them like favored heroes.
-Miko goes out on a dangerous mission. She is nearly killed. When she comes back, she hears Shojo explicitly confess to having schemed with the Order of the Stick, rigged the trial in their favor. And now he's sending them off to another one of the gates. Oh, and incidentally, he expresses disdain for lawful alignment and paladin oaths while he's at it.

Now, we know what kind of person Miko is, and we know a lot of things she didn't see happen. But Miko doesn't. And if all you knew were the above events, would it be that surprising if you freaked out and decided you were surrounded by an evil conspiracy? Especially when, based on the very words of Shojo and Roy, you are surrounded by a conspiracy?

So she ends up paranoid and absolutely certain that both the Order of the Stick and Shojo are evil. If she were right, her own actions would not be evil at all. But she's totally wrong, mainly because she only ever saw one side of the picture.


To sum it up, I think that Miko has a lot of issues, but is basically lawful good underneath those issues.

Most logical defense of Miko I've read so far. Much props.

[Trem]

Shes a murderer, she killed a defenceless innocent. That makes her evil no matter what else. Theres no getting away with murder just because you were trying to do good. Theres simply no way her aligment could be anything but lawful evil after killing shojo so shes whever lawful evil people end up.

[Estelindis]

I would argue that delusional insanity does not alter one's alignment.

Miko has always attempted to act like a Lawful Good person. She has committed many acts of self-sacrifice for the sake of objectively good ends- running into burning buildings to save people, attacking an entire tribe of ogres at great personal risk to rescue their captive, and so forth.

<snip>

To sum it up, I think that Miko has a lot of issues, but is basically lawful good underneath those issues.

Well said. Miko committed an awful crime in murdering Shojo, but the points you've outlined here make a lot of sense and give some helpful insight with regard to her (admittedly quite warped) perspective.

[Calinero]

Shes a murderer, she killed a defenceless innocent. That makes her evil no matter what else. Theres no getting away with murder just because you were trying to do good. Theres simply no way her aligment could be anything but lawful evil after killing shojo so shes whever lawful evil people end up.

I would hardly count Shojo to be an innocent...sure, he was a good guy, but he had come a bit closer to the gray line than most of the paladins have. And remember, to us it seems like he was doing the right thing. But to Miko, with her rapidly emerging insanity and rigid upbringing, combined with only partial knowledge of the situation, it seemed as though he were deliberately shaking the foundations of Sapphire City and the Sapphire Guard. Now, I'm not saying that justifies what she did. I'm just saying that there might be some leniency for one evil act, done with good intentions, but someone who was not entirely sane at the time, after a lifetime of good deeds(mostly.)

[jamroar]

Shes a murderer, she killed a defenceless innocent. That makes her evil no matter what else. Theres no getting away with murder just because you were trying to do good. Theres simply no way her aligment could be anything but lawful evil after killing shojo so shes whever lawful evil people end up.

Meh, Elan (of all people) was one step away from doing the exact same thing to Haley after coming to the misguided conclusion that she was a traitor, and with even less provocation. Only a deus ex machina prevented a tragedy from happening there.

And before you say he was under magical influence, suggestion can't compel you to perform a particular action, just plant or reinforce a reasonable idea in your mind. That doesn't suddenly make him chaotic evil if he did kill Haley, just tragically gullible.

[MarvinCZ]

I imagine Miko being thrown off the Lawful Good afterlife after strangling her Deva who dared suggest she had been wrong. She only frowned on Soon for that - but who knows what she would be capable of, if she had the strength (and legs). Anyone less revered would not get away with that - e.g. Hinjo.

[Dode]

I would argue that delusional insanity does not alter one's alignment.
Haha, okay.

"Murders helpless old men, but basically LG"

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The party was severely weakened at the time.

Roy had to fight with a club, not his greatsword which he had proficiency in.
V could not cast spells, making him/her useless. Although s/he did cast a fireball, which Miko dodged.
Haley could not use her arrows and was forced to use Elan's rapier.
Elan had a broken arm and could not fight.
Durkon refused to fight.
Belkar was being trampled by Miko's steed Windstriker.

During Round One, that was true... But Round Two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)?

In front of the inn, on a clear, sunny day, V fully charged, Elan in full health, and everyone knowing Miko's tactics from the first fight? The only two "weaknesses" the OOTS had was Roy's Greatclub, and Durkon refusing to fight.

Miko won Round Two, but took MORE damage than in Round One. Somewhere, Rich has a breakdown of Round Two, and how Miko was able to take down the Order a second time, but I'm too lazy to search the entire site.

Roy grumbled about "Stupid Railroad Plots," but Rich's explaination showed that Miko won Round Two fair and square.

[King of Nowhere]

I always tought Miko was stupid in beliving the Order and Sojo evil, but now it makes sense; I'm gonna rise my extimation of her int score.
Oh, wait. She kept her ideas after her fall made clear she was wrong, and against all other evidence, so I'm dropping it again.


Roy grumbled about "Stupid Railroad Plots," but Rich's explaination showed that Miko won Round Two fair and square.


I read that description, and Miko was clearly aided by the master or a great luck; she used stunning kick on Belkar twice, and he (a ranger/barbarian with likely a good con) failed both saves, Windstriker sunder Haley's bow in the beginning, V missed the attack roll for the disintegrate, Elan failed his roll to give V a healing potion while under attack and dropped the potion, and wasted his other actions doing very stupid things, Durkon cast one heal on Roy and the rest of the time tryed diplomacy. All the important rolls ended in Miko's favour. It was a railroaded plot.

[Niknokitueu]

I would hardly count Shojo to be an innocent...sure, he was a good guy, but he had come a bit closer to the gray line than most of the paladins have. And remember, to us it seems like he was doing the right thing. But to Miko, with her rapidly emerging insanity and rigid upbringing, combined with only partial knowledge of the situation, it seemed as though he were deliberately shaking the foundations of Sapphire City and the Sapphire Guard. Now, I'm not saying that justifies what she did. I'm just saying that there might be some leniency for one evil act, done with good intentions, but someone who was not entirely sane at the time, after a lifetime of good deeds(mostly.)
Some leniancy?
It appears... not everyone... agrees with your... analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
She never acted good, only Lawful. She acted exactly according to the tenets of paladinhood. Roy even pointed out that she did not act LG - she took the tenets, and acted on them as if they were canon, without any deviation to consider any possible mitigating circumstances, for either law or good. That is LN to me. And extreme LN at that.

Run into a burning building to save people - she did it because that is what paladins do. She doesn't even like people, let alone regard them as worth saveing.

Rescued a dirt farmer for no personal gain. Yep, guess what. It is what a paladin would do, so she did it. She showed no real compassion for the poor man, which is what all good people would feel whether they helped or not, and what should be the driving force behind a Paladin's actions.

As Rich has pointed out many times, Roy continually acts far more as a Lawful and Good guy than many of the Paladins, who are 'restricted' in their actions by their codes. Up to the last 100 comics anyway... And even now, Rich shows us that Paladins follow their code first, and do what is Honorable/Lawful/Good second. Fight to the death when it is paramount to stay alive to kill more bad guys? Paladin code. Not commit suicide when revealing important secrets could be no more than a failed will save away? Paladin code again.

Face it guys, the only reason Miko was ever LG was that she followed the paladin's code, and they have to be LG in order to remain paladins.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Emperor Demonking]

I think Miko will be in the same afterlife but I hope they don't meet, as Miko had a really good ending.

[Raging Gene Ray]

She doesn't even like people, let alone regard them as worth saveing...

She showed no real compassion for the poor man...


She didn't blatantly display her emotions. Neither do a lot of characters (O-Chul, V), that doesn't mean she didn't feel anything.

Let's look how she, in Roy's words, treated people like crap:

V: Said "Elf, Fireball!" Which, apparently, wounded his ego enough to not only want her dead, but consider he worse than a murderer.

Elan: Got mildly irritated when he couldn't comprehend that having a title 'samurai' doesn't mean having levels in samurai.

Haley: Called her greedy and told her she deserved to lose her voice. This was after Haley refused to pay for the inn out of her own overflowing pockets and convinced Miko to put a strain on her finances. This isn't much better than a filthy rich king shaking down the peasants.

Roy: He admitted that he only followed her in the first place because he thought she would be putting out for him by now. So...not putting out for him?

I wouldn't call that 'treating people like crap.' Wanting to kill someone over it...that does qualify. I deal with worse stuff from friends and co-workers than the Order had to put up with from Miko and have managed to not only avoid wishing them dead, put have even continued to respect them and remain friends with them.

Hinjo may have seen the trial where they were revealed to have defended the gates from the hands of Xykon, but Miko was too busy trying to kill Belkar for escaping, eviscerating a guard, and trying to kill her.

The Order threatened her a second time, even saying that they remained loyal to Belkar. They might have convinced her by saying that Belkar has been a useful tool against evil, and/or that he should be tried first, but they told her that they considered murder to be less mean than wounding their fragile, overinflated egos...at first I thought this was a satirical comment on how sociopathic most adventurers can be, like when my cleric cast Blade Barrier at a group of guards because one of them tried to kill a kitty cat.

After finding out that Shojo had freed Belkar and looked down on the Sapphire Guard, she probably thought that sending her after the Order was a ploy to get her killed. Hinjo might have thought so, too had he experienced how petty they were after the incident at the inn and had to put up with their use of lethal force to resist arrest.

The betrayal she must have felt at believing that the man she had served for most of her life and had acted as her surrogate father had set her up like that must have been a strain on her mind. She was later forced to consider that she had just murdered her greatest ally instead of her mortal enemy so she did what many normal people do: her mind grasped at rationalizations. The fact that Roy cracked jokes about her sex life instead of revealing facts about what was going on must have done absolutely nothing.

I guess what I'm basically trying to say is that if Roy got in by saying his resisting arrest was justified when neither he nor Miko knew it was an improper authority and his real reasons had more to do with sexual frustration, Miko would likely have a chance.

edit: Hmmmm, I promised myself I wouldn't be an essay poster....

[David Argall]

She never acted good, only Lawful. She acted exactly according to the tenets of paladinhood.
This is a determination to avoid the obvious. Miko may well have been more lawful than good, but she was rather clearly both.


Run into a burning building to save people - she did it because that is what paladins do.
Now where is this more than just a charge? Miko doesn't explain her actions much so this seems to be just something made up to make her look bad.


She doesn't even like people, let alone regard them as worth saveing.
Rather obviously, she does regard people as worth saving. That is what she is doing. [Notably, it is deemed especially virtuous to rescue someone you hate, so her dislike of people makes her even further on the side of the angels here.] Moreover, she is doing that instead of the lawful imperative of arresting the criminal.


Rescued a dirt farmer for no personal gain. Yep, guess what. It is what a paladin would do, so she did it.
Again you make a guess as to her motivation, and again, we see no evidence it is accurate. Note that Roy tries to play up to Miko by insisting his motives were due to feelings of good [and not to just boredom]. Again, when we compare Law vs Good, she acts on the Good side. By Law, she had a duty to deliver the prisoners, which was endangered by this side quest.


She showed no real compassion for the poor man, which is what all good people would feel whether they helped or not,
So where do we see this "real compassion" on the part of the other party members? Their behavior seems much the same as her's.


Face it guys, the only reason Miko was ever LG was that she followed the paladin's code, and they have to be LG in order to remain paladins.

Again, this is simply an unsupported charge. To the extent we know her motivations, being a paladin is not her chief motivation. She shows a great desire to defend the gate and a belief that she has a destiny. But about the only time she says she does something due to being a paladin is when she obeys Shojo's order to stop attacking Belkar. The rest of the time, it would seem that being a paladin, while a source of pride, is still only a secondary motivation.

[paladinofshojo]

Doubt that even when the 12 gods had forsaken her that their underlings will take her in with open arms. There's a BIG difference between Miko's and Roy's version of "trying" to be lawful good. While Miko tries to be an overbearing authoritarian who believes that she is the vessel of all that is pure and good *cough* and that those who don't follow her orders to the slightest letter aren't fit to live. She is virtually condemned of the greatest sin, huberus, which caused her to commit downright REGICIDE! She had never taken responsability for ANY of her past mistakes, and had all too willingly blamed them on scapegoats like the OotS. Roy on the other hand is more humble and accepts his own flaws and errors, and would willingly resort to using unorthodox methods to achieve his goals for the greater good.

In short Miko is like Paladin Alexander Anderson from Hellsing
and Roy is like Lady Integra Fairbrooks Wilson Hellsing from Hellsing

Anyone who knows anything on these subjects can plainly see that Miko is a fanatic zeolot who perverts the ways of Lawful Good, and will most likely be sent to the deepest layers of Baator for treason against her liege and lord.

[jamroar]

Doubt that even when the 12 gods had forsaken her that their underlings will take her in with open arms. There's a BIG difference between Miko's and Roy's version of "trying" to be lawful good.

The gods stripped her powers for falling as a paladin, not for being of evil alignment. It's also explicitly stated that the gods have no say who gets into Celestia in the strip where Roy admits he's never had a spiritual calling.

The "big difference" is that Roy hasn't shown himself to be trying to live up to his Lawful Good alignment at all, until recently. (I would say, when he reforges his sword and renews his oath to fight Xykon for the right reasons, not to piss off his father, and getting Shojo to put a leash on Belkar). Hence the "but you're trying" thing.

Miko has never actually stopped trying to act lawful good, even after the gods forsook her and took away her powers.



While Miko tries to be an overbearing authoritarian who believes that she is the vessel of all that is pure and good *cough* and that those who don't follow her orders to the slightest letter aren't fit to live.

Her beef with the OOTS is not that they don't follow her orders (otherwise she'd wouldn't have sprung for the hotel rooms against her better judgement, and simply executed them all in round 2 insteading of taking them prisoner), it's the one fact that they (and Shojo) are harbouring a proven evil psychotic murderer and keeping him from justice. That is a perfectly normal reaction, and rightly repugnant to Good people everywhere (as demonstrated recently by Celia), it's just that her singleminded obsession on this blinds her to everything else.



She is virtually condemned of the greatest sin, huberus, which caused her to commit downright REGICIDE!

Regicide is not inherently evil (Mace Windu trying to kill Palpatine, Germans attempting to assassinate Hitler, et. al), and would in fact be Good had she been correct in her assumptions. It is, however, an Ultra-chaotic act for a sworn liege to turn against her master, and that might have caused an alignment shift, had she not been ridiculously Lawful her whole life.
Mistakenly killing an innocent man on shaky grounds, regardless of social rank, is an evil act, but not an especially and unforgivably evil one (as demonstrated by Hinjo offering the possibility of atonement to Miko, and Elan nearly killing Haley for the same reason).
Either one would have sufficed to make her fall, without actually changing her alignment.



She had never taken responsability for ANY of her past mistakes, and had all too willingly blamed them on scapegoats like the OotS.

True, she has not taken responsibility for her one mistake of killing Shojo. But that affects her chances of atonement as a paladin, not her alignment.



Roy on the other hand is more humble and accepts his own flaws and errors, and would willingly resort to using unorthodox methods to achieve his goals for the greater good.
Roy isn't that much more humble either. He makes up poor excuses point by point when directly called on them during his review, instead of admitting his mistakes. Only in the case of abandoning Elan, for which there is really no excuse, does he admits wrongdoing.

[Underground]

If she does end up in the LG afterlife, and does meet Roy, the main benefit that I can see would be that she might not be so self-righteous any more. I'm sure that dying managed to give her some perspective on things.... I believe that exactly that isnt the case, and that exactly that is the reason why she ended like she ended.

[hamishspence]

Regicide (tyrannicide?) can be good, depending on the circumstances. It might be remembered that most pre-modern history tends to portray tyrannicide as not wholly good: French Revolution, English Civil War, and many more.
Killing people other than the target by using an indiscriminate method? Dubious.

Killing a helpless target? again dubious. Mace's actions, going by the novelisation, were skirting the dark side. He was arguing "ends justify the means" and losing control of his temper. Of course, Palpatine was faking helpless. Still, because of this behaviour, Palpatines claims that the jedi were setting themselves above the law appeared justified. The real issue shouldn't have been: "Palpatine is a Sith," but" Palpatine has conspired with the Separatists."

[Calinero]

I don't think this is as simple as "she committed regicide, she's evil!" Intent has to be considered. Sure, we know that she's wrong, but did she know that? In her perspective, she was striking down a corrupt tyrant who was attempting to subvert the Sapphire Guard from its intended purpose. Of course, she was flawed in her viewpoint, but it seems that this would simply imply that she isn't very good at being good. And they don't penalize for inefficiency.

[Flickerdart]

I think that Miko could very well be stuck outside the walls, like Roy's father is. Which means that she could potentially meet him, and they could discuss in great detail all of Roy's flaws. I'd say that makes for a fun filler comic.

[hamishspence]

Often Miko has god reason for believing something, but constructs a chain of less logical conclusions from that belief, and acts on them and these precipitous acts are the problem.

she's not good at being good, but there is a difference between inefficiency and outright vengefulness, and she crosses that line a lot.

Keeping a baddie alive for investigation has the advantage of opening the possibility of finding out what crimes he has done that you don't know about.

[Renegade Paladin]

Haha, okay.

"Murders helpless old men, but basically LG"
Oh, what a resounding rebuttal. I am stunned by your witty rhetoric, and gladly concede that Miko was the worst being to exist since Lucifer himself. :smallannoyed:

Seriously, is that the best you can do? First, she killed one old man, not multiple ones, and secondly she had every reason to believe that Shojo was a traitor, as you would know had you bothered to address the remainder of Dervag's post. Was killing Shojo wrong? Yes, it was. Does this shift her alignment enough to send her to Acheron? Ummmm... How 'bout no?

I'm going to take a flying leap here and state the obvious: The Order of the Stick has done far, far worse than Miko. Vaarsuvius wished her dead because, oh no, her ego was bruised! What a horrible injury she inflicted upon her! Belkar's evil is measured in kilonazis, so I don't think I have to go into much detail. Haley's more concerned with treasure than people's lives. Roy abandoned Elan to death at the hands of the bandits because he was mildly annoyed. Up until she killed Shojo, you can't possibly make any sort of case that she was morally worse than the Order, and even then it's difficult.

[Calinero]

I agree, mostly. People tend to hate Miko because she is always in opposition against the protagonists, but that really is not her fault. She is just doing her job, at first. Later on that is debatable, but I personally doubt that she is entirely mentally stable. She has some issues going on. In my opinion, she i an essentially good person who is quite a bit too rigid, and is mentally unstable. And yes, she's made a few bad choices. But so has everyone, really.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I like and don't like Miko. I like that she's a compelling character who raises a lot of questions about what lawful and good mean. I don't like her because she's basically a personification of Jack Thompson with that whole, if you don't completely agree with everything I say you're evil, vibe.

So I like her complex moral issues; I don't like that it's more helpful to argue with a stone wall then her as that eventually gets on my nerves.

She's one of Rich's best characters, though, and had an excellent and fitting end.

[Calinero]

She's one of Rich's best characters, though, and had an excellent and fitting end.

Oh, I totally agree that she's a great character. I don't think that can be contested. What's contested often is whether people like her or not. I think the fact that she's such a great character means she probably won't come back--coming back for more stretched out subplots would only weaken her as a character, unless there was a very compelling reason for her return.

[Dode]

Oh, what a resounding rebuttal. I am stunned by your witty rhetoric, and gladly concede that Miko was the worst being to exist since Lucifer himself. :smallannoyed:

Seriously, is that the best you can do? First, she killed one old man, Yeah about here is where I stopped taking this post seriously. Only killed one old man.


Yes, it was. Does this shift her alignment enough to send her to Acheron? Ummmm... How 'bout no? For reference, the sort of rebuttal I should strive for: "NO IT ISN'T"

I'm going to take a flying leap here and state the obvious: The Order of the Stick has done far, far worse than Miko. Vaarsuvius wished her dead because, oh no, her ego was bruised! Wishing murder: Worse then actual murder.

Up until she killed Shojo, you can't possibly make any sort of case that she was morally worse than the Order, and even then it's difficult. Too bad for you we're arguing in linear time, and this is after she killed a helpless old man. Feel free though to dig up some comic strip where V thought a mean thing, which in your mind blows murder out of the water.

[Dode]

I think that Miko could very well be stuck outside the walls, like Roy's father is. Which means that she could potentially meet him, and they could discuss in great detail all of Roy's flaws "hook up" and spend eternity in a sweaty mess. I'd say that makes for a fun filler comic.
Fixed for Eugene pimpocity.

[Theodoriph]

So where do we see this "real compassion" on the part of the other party members? Their behavior seems much the same as her's.

Actually, Haley shows compassion with regards to that particular quest. If you remember that her father is similarly being held captive by a monster, her lines make it quite obvious that she feels for the dirt farmer and his wife.


That being said, I agree with you about Miko being LG.

[David Argall]

It is reasonable to say Haley shows compassion, but by the same standards, so does Miko.

[Theodoriph]

I'd disagree. Haley is thief. Miko is a paladin. Haley's dialogue demonstrates her compassion because it runs contrary to what she should do. Even Roy thought so (since he didn't know about her father). Miko is a Paladin...her dialogue demonstrates her doing exactly what she is supposed to. It's her job to protect those farmers. So the levels of compassion demonstrated are vastly different (i.e. there is actually some shown by Haley whereas for Miko, the simplest explanation is that she is supposed to do things like that, no compassion required).

[David Argall]

This logic says the most compassionate classes can't show compassion.

[FujinAkari]

Yeah about here is where I stopped taking this post seriously. Only killed one old man.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that murder is an evil act, despite it being the foundation of D&D.

The fact that Miko killed someone is irrelevant, the only questions is "Was it justifiable?" We can see from the Deva interview that Roy only got in serious trouble over abandoning Elan. All other questionable actions were more-or-less ignored since he had reasons for them.

Did Miko have reasons? Yes, she had a LOT of them.

Thus, no, I very much doubt this single action is enough to change her final destination.

[Theodoriph]

This logic says the most compassionate classes can't show compassion.


Not at all. But doing one's duty isn't the same as showing compassion, and doing her duty is all Miko is shown as doing in said plot line.

In fact I'd argue the fact that Miko said something about "sacred duty" and "righteous causes" instead of something like "Poor woman, I should help her." demonstrates a decided lack of compassion. She wasn't doing it because she cared, but because she felt that the gods wanted her to (which would incidentally be completely in character for her).

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah about here is where I stopped taking this post seriously. Only killed one old man.
Don't blame me. You're the one who used the plural. If you don't wish to be corrected, don't screw up.

For reference, the sort of rebuttal I should strive for: "NO IT ISN'T"
Well, it's not. If it were, every single D&D character pretty much ever rolled would be headed straight for Nessus. The alignment system is based on the assumption that the characters are going to be killing their enemies, and adjusts accordingly. Miko had many excellent reasons to conclude that Shojo was her enemy. Therefore, one can reasonably conclude that, while it obviously broke the paladin code, it was not likely enough to actually change her alignment to lawful evil.

Wishing murder: Worse then actual murder.
Given the motives involved? Gee, a bruised ego vs. HIGH TREASON. I wonder which seems a more compelling reason to wish someone dead.

Too bad for you we're arguing in linear time, and this is after she killed a helpless old man. Feel free though to dig up some comic strip where V thought a mean thing, which in your mind blows murder out of the water.
No, it doesn't; I simply dispute that what Miko did was cold-blooded murder. She had an explanation that, while wrong, was 1.) entirely too easy to come to given the information she had at hand (note that Hinjo came to it as well; he just reacted differently) and 2.) a plausibly justifiable motive to execute Shojo, since otherwise he could use his power over the courts to exonerate himself. Was she wrong? Absolutely, but given her motives, it is not the sort of thing a reasonable DM would shift alignment two whole steps for.

[Dode]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that murder is an evil act, http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/images/smilies/headpat.gif

[Dode]

Don't blame me. You're the one who used the plural. If you don't wish to be corrected, don't screw up.

Well, it's not. If it were, every single D&D character pretty much ever rolled would be headed straight for Nessus. Well I don't know what sort of heroes that you play in your game, but I've never seen a helpless-old-man killer in a D&D game who claimed to be anything other then evil. So the elaboration of your "NO IT ISN'T is still flawed.


Given the motives involved? Gee, a bruised ego vs. HIGH TREASON. I wonder which seems a more compelling reason to wish someone dead. Wishing murder: worse then actual murder. http://www.schachcomputer.info/forum/images/smilies/headpat.gif


No, it doesn't; I simply dispute that what Miko did was cold-blooded murder. She had an explanation that, while wrong, was 1.) entirely too easy to come to given the information she had at hand (note that Hinjo came to it as well; he just reacted differently) and 2.) a plausibly justifiable motive to execute Shojo, since otherwise he could use his power over the courts to exonerate himself. Was she wrong? Absolutely, but given her motives, it is not the sort of thing a reasonable DM would shift alignment two whole steps for. Yes, she does evil things out of rash, poorly thought out decisions and flat-out ignorance (see also: cutting up that gem that blew up the city) . I'm not debating that. Still evil though, and belongs in Acheron where Miko's behavior is the norm/won't get everyone around her killed.

[Healer Hobo]

Oh, what a resounding rebuttal. I am stunned by your witty rhetoric, and gladly concede that Miko was the worst being to exist since Lucifer himself. :smallannoyed:


First: Wow. You could actualy read his grammar? You must be the king of grammar.

Second: I love you. Marry me?

On topic, yeah, I'd think it funny if Miko did indeed meet Roy in the afterlife. As one person said, both not even realizing it was the other.

[David Argall]

Well I don't know what sort of heroes that you play in your game, but I've never seen a helpless-old-man killer in a D&D game who claimed to be anything other then evil.
This is an artifact of the game being essentially a fighting game. Killing the helpless old man is just too easy. Not even a CR1/4.
Once we switch to a D&D world, we expect to see cases where that helpless old man is publically executed for various crimes and the PCs are not supposed to be concerned at all. They may well have been involved in bringing him to justice.


Wishing murder: worse then actual murder.
It can be so morally, and as noted, Miko has several of the elements that can make it so.

Miko is guilty of murder because she is mistaken about her "facts". She means no harm to Shojo beyond that that would be justified if she were correct. She accused Shojo of planning harm to many, and that there is no way to prevent that harm besides killing him. If we accept these fantasies as facts, her action becomes entirely non evil.
By contrast, let us assume some of the speculation about her motives was correct, that she killed because of a personal sense of betrayal, a wish to hurt him for hurting her. We call the wish evil even before she carries it out.

So we find that in some cases that wishing murder is morally worse than the actual crime.


Yes, she does evil things out of rash, poorly thought out decisions and flat-out ignorance (see also: cutting up that gem that blew up the city) . I'm not debating that. Still evil though, and belongs in Acheron where Miko's behavior is the norm/won't get everyone around her killed.
Now Miko might actually enjoy Acheron, but that is merely an accident of the description. In some versions of D&D, CG heaven also contains a continual battlefield.

But our list of evil deeds by Miko is distinctly short. Killing of Shojo and attempting to kill Hinjo. That's about it. [No, the destruction of the Gate is not evil. It may well be wrong-headed, but we get the agreement of all authorities in the comic that destroying the gate is the morally superior action in certain conditions which Miko felt with good reason applied to her case.]
The sins on her record are far from small, and her contrition for them is speculative at best, but Miko also has a long record as a paladin, and that puts a lot of good deeds on the table even if we can't see them.
The closer we put her to LG heaven, the better it fits the facts we know.

[Calinero]

Hm....I see that this thread has turned into a debate over the merits of Miko. To be honest, that's fair, because this is a thread that essentially debates what afterlife Miko deserves to get into. However, please try to keep it professional....no personal attacks on grammar. Keep it to a discussion of Miko and her merits--or lack thereof, if you please.

[LibraryOgre]

I get the feeling she's in Arcadia, as was mentioned earlier. She lived her entire life in the service to LAW and Good. She felt that she was doing good, and usually did so (she was, after all, a Paladin or Monk for all but a few days of her adult life), but her emphasis was more on duty than on the balance of the two. Arcadia is a LG with an emphasis on Law, which seems appropriate for how she lived her life.