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likrin
2008-03-27, 08:43 PM
I’m Designing a character for an evil campaign, and so far we have a Barbadian-bard, a bard that is big in charming (with spells and skills), a ninja, a swashbuckler and a fighter Goliath that specializes in throwing people...ya, and so I realized how unbalanced the team is and wanted to be the healer, but with a twist...
We start at Lvl 4, have 32 points, and a choice of any class, race, as long as they are not uber cheap<I said uber lol) if it is a little cheap, he and I can fix it), basically the campaign is like a thieves guild, evil, and underground, he has said no to some prestige classes, but I don’t really want to prestige class either
Basically here’s my problem, I’m undeceive, I want a warforged Archivist person, but I also love the Artificer and would like to use that too. So far a warforged Archivist-Artificer right, I don’t know what kind of build it would be like, whether it’s balanced (under or over) or if those things even mach together, but it would be cool if they did, I just want a healer with a little spice to it
Basically, any suggestions on the build, or a better one (race-class-prestige class), or any questions on the campaign or on understandig what i said, please answer/ask, this is my 1st form thing so I hope I did alright, lol
thanks

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-27, 08:45 PM
Warforged artificer with some metamagic'd wands of healing can make a fine healer, and buff prodigiously too. While Artificer can become obscenely broken very quickly, if you don't seek to optimise it too much it plays like a slightly less front-line cleric, with a ton more versatility.

AslanCross
2008-03-27, 09:19 PM
That combo certainly plays a lot with versatility. The Archivist spell slots could contain highly situational buffs and divination spells, while the wands and scrolls you craft would give you your offensive side. Wands of Cure Light Wounds are very cheap to make and would serve your healing needs quite well.

Squash Monster
2008-03-27, 09:27 PM
Both classes are caster classes, and thus have exponential power curves that do not play nicely with others. Unless there's some sort of theurge class (I don't think there is) then it just won't work.

So, instead, just to artificer and pretend you're an archivist. Archivists can cast all divine spells and do some really nifty stuff with knowledge checks. Artificers can already cast all the spells, so just make a bunch of +knowledge custom skill items and take the Knowledge Devotion feat from Complete Champion.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-27, 10:10 PM
A single level dip of Artificer really opens up the Archivist class spells for the PC prayer book since the PC is no longer dependent on the DM for acquiring unusual spells he just scribles them himself as an Artificer.

Hario
2008-03-27, 10:28 PM
A single level dip of Artificer really opens up the Archivist class spells for the PC prayer book since the PC is no longer dependent on the DM for acquiring unusual spells he just scribles them himself as an Artificer.

Actually from what I've heard the artificer's spells aren't arcane or divine, they scribe artificer scrolls, they can be used by any spellcaster but cannot be learned from since they are not arcane scrolls or divine scrolls. Of course there is litttle to no way a dm would pick up on this since it makes little to no sence unless you fully read how an artificer makes his items.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-27, 10:50 PM
Actually from what I've heard the artificer's spells aren't arcane or divine, they scribe artificer scrolls, they can be used by any spellcaster but cannot be learned from since they are not arcane scrolls or divine scrolls. Of course there is litttle to no way a dm would pick up on this since it makes little to no sence unless you fully read how an artificer makes his items.

Artificers use infusions. In my example the artificer is making a scroll with the Scribe Scroll feat and his extraordinary class special ability Item Creation which has nothing to do with his infusions.

tyckspoon
2008-03-27, 11:04 PM
Artificers use infusions. In my example the artificer is making a scroll with the Scribe Scroll feat and his extraordinary class special ability Item Creation which has nothing to do with his infusions.

Which leads to exactly what the previous posters said. A scroll's status as arcane or divine depends on whether it was scribed by a divine or arcane caster. An Archivist is neither. When he scribes a scroll, he creates an odd kind of typeless scroll that everybody needs a UMD check to use.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-27, 11:38 PM
Which leads to exactly what the previous posters said. A scroll's status as arcane or divine depends on whether it was scribed by a divine or arcane caster. An Archivist is neither. When he scribes a scroll, he creates an odd kind of typeless scroll that everybody needs a UMD check to use.

I disagree but am curious is you and the previous poster apply that same standard to magic items created by an artificer in game for use by other casters?

tyckspoon
2008-03-27, 11:45 PM
I disagree but am curious is you and the previous poster apply that same standard to magic items created by an artificer in game for use by other casters?

Is that items created solely by the artificer, or where the artificer is working with another caster to create the item? Anything where the artificer is doing all the work himself is going to wind up as 'neither' for situations where it is relevant whether the item is arcane or divine. If he's working with somebody else- say, the artificer provides the feat and the other person provides the actual spell- I would say the end product is actually arcane (or divine) as it would normally be for whoever provided the spell.

Cuddly
2008-03-28, 02:53 AM
He would use UMD to imitate being a divine caster to scribe a divine scroll. Pretty simple concept, really.

Kalirren
2008-03-28, 02:58 AM
I honestly believe that the FAQ which states that artificers create typeless scrolls was not written with this contingency in mind.

Honestly, I have to say that an artificer/archivist -would- be a divine caster and -would- be able to create divine scrolls by using the Scribe Scroll feat, even if he got the feat as an artificer bonus feat. After all, it's not like we say that wizard-clerics who scribe scrolls can only scribe arcane scrolls since the Scribe Scroll feat came as a wizard bonus feat.

This, however, leaves open the question of whether or not an artificer/archivist can scribe a divine scroll of a spell he doesn't -know as a divine spell- yet, to which I would be inclined to answer in the negative.

Aquillion
2008-03-28, 05:23 AM
There was an errata; I don't want to bother looking it up, you can do that yourself. But it says, basically, yeah. Artificers make untyped scrolls that can never be learned as spells by anyone (period), nor used by anyone without a UMD check.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-28, 09:00 AM
I agree with Cuddly. There are arcane and divine scrolls until wizard's creates a spell list of typeless artificer spells like they do for other classes.

Similar to the Spellpool for the MotAO and not learning free arcane spells for a wizard. It can be sidestepped with a Ring of Theurgy. Call spell. Cast spell into Ring of Theurgy. Scribe Spell from Ring of Theurgy.

likrin
2008-03-28, 03:29 PM
Thank you all for your comments, definitely helped
Helping to answer the problem with Artificers from what I have experienced, Wizards and Archivists can’t learn from Artificer's scrolls, I was told, because their scrolls were only meant to be used as magical objects, like rods or wands, and since you can’t learn spells from wands, u wouldn’t from those scrolls...
even if you could, a good DM wouldn’t allow it, or a good player wouldn’t take advantage of such loopholes since they make the game less fun for the party, but that is just me :smallsmile:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-28, 05:39 PM
Thank you all for your comments, definitely helped
Helping to answer the problem with Artificers from what I have experienced, Wizards and Archivists can’t learn from Artificer's scrolls, I was told, because their scrolls were only meant to be used as magical objects, like rods or wands, and since you can’t learn spells from wands, u wouldn’t from those scrolls...
even if you could, a good DM wouldn’t allow it, or a good player wouldn’t take advantage of such loopholes since they make the game less fun for the party, but that is just me :smallsmile:

Only if by "Good DM" you mean powertripping Jerk.

What is it with everyone and "Good DMs" sole job being to shutdown players.

How is it not fun for the party for an Archivist to get access to the spells he wants? That's the point of the Archivist class. Archivists are Clerics with lower BAB/HD and spells from other lists. Getting spells from other lists is fundamental to being an Archivist instead of a Gimped Cleric.

A good player might want to, I don't know, play the class so that he can have lots of cool spells from different books. Similarly a good DM might relish the fact that an Archivist can get some spells that he wants without having to give a list to the DM of spells he would like to "Find."

likrin
2008-03-28, 10:38 PM
Well, you are only looking at it from "you vs. the DM" but its not only you in a game, and if you are playing with other casters, you being able to do every divine spell makes it seem like some other characters are insignificant, but I see what you mean, it isn’t about you fighting the DM, its about fighting and coexisting in the world created by the DM
I just don’t like the thought of a cleric, druid, and Archivist playing and the Archivist is casting the same spells as both, at the same caster level and making the other two people give up and make a new character (though it is rare and far between to find those three classes in the same party)
but I have a wizard in another game I’m playing (she pregnant too, lol) and it is a pain to get so many spells, but I love the fact that rather then just having all the spells I can learn right at my fingertips, I can interact with the world to find the things I need, cause I know that in real life I cant just learn advanced mathematics buy salving the problem, and then learning to salve it afterwards

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-29, 12:02 AM
Well, you are only looking at it from "you vs. the DM" but its not only you in a game, and if you are playing with other casters, you being able to do every divine spell makes it seem like some other characters are insignificant, but I see what you mean, it isn’t about you fighting the DM, its about fighting and coexisting in the world created by the DM
I just don’t like the thought of a cleric, druid, and Archivist playing and the Archivist is casting the same spells as both, at the same caster level and making the other two people give up and make a new character (though it is rare and far between to find those three classes in the same party)
but I have a wizard in another game I’m playing (she pregnant too, lol) and it is a pain to get so many spells, but I love the fact that rather then just having all the spells I can learn right at my fingertips, I can interact with the world to find the things I need, cause I know that in real life I cant just learn advanced mathematics buy salving the problem, and then learning to salve it afterwards

1) Clericzilla and DMM, Wildshape and companion. An Archivist doesn't replace other divine casters.

2) Does that mean two Clerics can't play in the same party? They both have the same spells.

3) Archivists and Clerics and Druids all perform different functions, and the primary limiter in everything is actions not spells you could possibly cast if you had prepared them that day.

Cleric: I feel so useless because the Archivist could cast Heal as a 5th level spell. Oh well. *Charging Power Attack for 300 damage* I wish I wasn't so obsolete.

Aquillion
2008-03-29, 11:13 PM
Only if by "Good DM" you mean powertripping Jerk.No, by "Good DM" he means knows the errata for the books in use (http://cityoftowers.net/Files/Eberron_Errata04282005.pdf):


Page 32: Artificer—Item Creation
Magic items created by an artificer are considered neither arcane nor divine.
Archivists are only able to learn spells from divine scrolls, and an artificer's scrolls are never divine. (Likewise, wizards, who can only learn from arcane scrolls, can't learn artificer spells either... and nobody can cast them without using UMD.)

An Artificer who has used the book can go to neither heaven nor hell...

TheCountAlucard
2008-03-29, 11:30 PM
An Archivist is neither.

An Archivist is a divine caster. Did you mean to say Artificer?

turkishproverb
2008-03-30, 12:48 AM
Only if by "Good DM" you mean powertripping Jerk.

What is it with everyone and "Good DMs" sole job being to shutdown players.

They are the same people who think the players are "competing" and that the party cleric shouldn't be willing to heal or buff other members of the group.

tyckspoon
2008-03-30, 02:27 AM
An Archivist is a divine caster. Did you mean to say Artificer?

*facepalm* Indeed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-30, 03:31 PM
Errata - Artificer class items created by an artificer are considered neither arcane or divine.

Almost 5 full pages (pages 29 - 33) devoted to the Artificer class in ECS not including the pages devoted to infusions. Hard to belief Keith doesn't have a handle on the game mechanics involved with the class and forgot to include that single sentence.