Female Liches

[GrassyGnoll]

So I was cooking up a LN dread necromancer character outline and stumbled upon Evening Glory in Libris Mortis. As the only non-evil deity (and one of three non-evil entities) explored in the book she tied in well for at least a casual interest. Reading through she looked like the standard love/beauty goddess with an undead twist, until I got to that little herald tag, female lich. Have there ever been any examples of loving OR beautiful liches? I've never heard of or seen a picture of a female lich, it just seemed undead scholar/spellcaster was a male dominated job field. How do I handle this unusual combination of compassion and decomposition? (Just thinking about it, that's gotta be one powerful casting of gentle repose to keep a lich nubile)

The character is going to be an orphaned farm boy from a slaughtered village that didn't stay dead. From a very young age onwards he was raised by ghosts and sentient undead caring for the last living thing they knew, until he was "saved" from the village by a retinue of traveling knights. The profile fits in perfectly.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Shirt of Gentle Repose, BoEF. As long as it is always worn, you remain fertile long after death. You don't decay either, just as a bonus, and it's designed for the undead. You lose fertility if you spend more than a couple hours outside it's influence.

[FoE]

The Undying Court in Eberron are somewhat like benevolent liches. They're powered by positive energy instead of negative, and although they're not necessarily friendly to non-elves, they aren't scheming to rule the world either.

[Ascension]

So she's explicitly stated as being beautiful and undead? If they don't state that for certain I'd just assume her to be lovely in that "face only an undead could love" sort of way... i.e. just as decayed as the average male lich.

[Kizara]

See for yourself, there's a description in Libris Mortis.

[Bag_of_Holding]

There's an illustration of Erandis d'Vol in Faiths of Eberron. She's a female half-green dragon elf lich, one of the higher level NPCs in the campaign setting. That'll give you an idea about a female lich without that shirt thingy.

[GrassyGnoll]

The Undying Court in Eberron are somewhat like benevolent liches. They're powered by positive energy instead of negative, and although they're not necessarily friendly to non-elves, they aren't scheming to rule the world either.

Neutral and nonthreatening liches are more readily par for the course. Undeath is a sometimes explored possibility for the shut-in scholar. Plus, I think positive energy "liches" are deathless or whatever they're called in BoED.


There's an illustration of Erandis d'Vol in Faiths of Eberron. She's a female half-green dragon elf lich, one of the higher level NPCs in the campaign setting. That'll give you an idea about a female lich without that shirt thingy.

Google image search doesn't turn up anything. Copyright protected?

[Chronos]

I've never heard of or seen a picture of a female lich, it just seemed undead scholar/spellcaster was a male dominated job field.How would you know? I mean, yes, the skeleton of a female is slightly different from that of a male (mostly in the pelvis), but how many folks are trained enough to tell the difference? And more to the point, when you're dealing with a lich, how much attention are you paying to its pelvis?

[Ascension]

How would you know? I mean, yes, the skeleton of a female is slightly different from that of a male (mostly in the pelvis), but how many folks are trained enough to tell the difference? And more to the point, when you're dealing with a lich, how much attention are you paying to its pelvis?

Isn't it the first thing that you look at when you meet one? If you have the lich-loved feat, that is...

[Jerthanis]

Vol, the Queen of the Undead in Eberron is a female Lich. I don't think it's ever specifically mentioned whether she's attractive or not, but Liches are powerful enough magically to do pretty much whatever they want. Disguise Self or Polymorph is probably sufficient to appear as attractive, even if your natural form has terribly decayed flesh.

[GrassyGnoll]

Vol, the Queen of the Undead in Eberron is a female Lich. I don't think it's ever specifically mentioned whether she's attractive or not, but Liches are powerful enough magically to do pretty much whatever they want. Disguise Self or Polymorph is probably sufficient to appear as attractive, even if your natural form has terribly decayed flesh.

That's plenty good for your average self conscious postmortem individual, but when you're saddled with the job of being the herald of a god of beauty it's considered good form to still fit the bill after a dispel magic or two.

[AslanCross]

Neutral and nonthreatening liches are more readily par for the course. Undeath is a sometimes explored possibility for the shut-in scholar. Plus, I think positive energy "liches" are deathless or whatever they're called in BoED.



Google image search doesn't turn up anything. Copyright protected?

http://www.waynereynolds.com/D&D%20eberron/WOTCGallery2A/FaithsofEberron02.jpg <---winged figure on the upper right.

[Hyrael]

Well, I've always felt that most self-conscious liches would go completely skeletal, rather than try to make their decaying flesh look nice. Its like going bald; you can either tease those last few strands over your pate in a pathetic attempt at a comb-over, or you can shave the lot off and go cue-ball.

A lich that wanted to stay pretty could also imbibe vast ammounts of formaldehyde, or keep a constant Gentle Repose effect on themselves. Or, Polymorph themselves into a less dead form.

[Kalirren]

Why certainly, I can think of examples of loving, beautiful, and female liches. The first lich character whom I played was a changeling name Jade who identified female. She had a home, an adopted daughter, and was able to maintain a small remnant of the mutability of her body, which made for some interesting visual effect together with her sense of style and her charisma (while she wasn't wearing her crown of disguise, that is.) She held a very successful political career, eventually becoming co-regent of New Cyre after Prince Oargev bit the dust. She never lost touch with the interests and perspectives of the common folk, which made her a superb administrator in the rebuilding effort. Unfortunately, it also made her an unfortunately carefree director of national intelligence. The Chamber eventually fired her from that post. I think Jade could be considered all three; loving, beautiful, and female.

The man with whom she held a relationship (after they both had become liches, no less) was a Karrnathi necromancer from the Blood of Vol. Their cooperation and relationship proved essential to the Reformation of that organization in our campaign subsequent to Vol's destruction.

So yes, liches, even if their backgrounds lend themselves towards evil, can easily feel the need for companionship and acceptance both among their own kind and within society at large. If vampires can be loving and beautiful, as they are often caonically portrayed, then why not liches?

[Mr. Friendly]

http://www.waynereynolds.com/D&D%20eberron/WOTCGallery2A/FaithsofEberron02.jpg <---winged figure on the upper right.

*sees pic*

*considers taking the Lich-Loved feat*

[Tsotha-lanti]

Evening Glory is Neutral, hence any liches worshipping her are presumably more or less Neutral. It's no weirder than the well-established good arch-liches of Faerûn. (Who, I think, don't decompose? And baelnorns - elven liches who are usually good, sometimes neutral - probably don't rot either.)

The neutrality is already a pretty big departure from standard lichdom, so a personality that suits Evening Glory doesn't seem like a stretch. (I'm not sure "compassionate" would be an appropriate trait, though. Evening Glory is the deity of preserving love eternally by making it undead. While that's Neutral enough - since you're not supposed to murder and re-animate your lover - it's more creepy or insanely obsessive than anything else.)

I'm not sure where compassion would come in with female liches, other than that. A male and female lich worshipper of Evening Glory are probably going to be a lot more alike than a male lich worshipper of Evening Glory and your standard evil lich (of either gender).

The reasons liches are rarely depicted as female are probably obvious enough.

Anyway, considering undead continue to move despite lacking anything that would allow them to do so, I don't see why you'd assume that they decompose further, either. If your magic can kill you, put part of your soul in a phylactery, and re-animate the body for you to inhabit and use, stopping it from ever rotting should be a breeze. (After all, a 5th-level wizard can do that - and more - for 5 days per 3rd-level spell slot, at no cost.)


Also, since when are Anne "A. N. Roquelaure" Rice and White Wolf "vampire canon"? Yeesh. (Granted, Stoker's Dracula had that obsessive romance thing, but it's on a gothic horror level.)

[Kami2awa]

Any lich should be able to research a spell that disguises its undead nature; after all they are all ridiculously high level casters. If you can mask the smell of decay Alter Self should do it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

GW example:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/tombkings/artwork/images/art14.jpg

[senrath]

So yes, liches, even if their backgrounds lend themselves towards evil, can easily feel the need for companionship and acceptance both among their own kind and within society at large. If vampires can be loving and beautiful, as they are often caonically portrayed, then why not liches?

But isn't the process of becoming a lich described as something so horrible that only those truly evil would ever go down that path?

[Cuddly]

Anyway, considering undead continue to move despite lacking anything that would allow them to do so, I don't see why you'd assume that they decompose further, either. If your magic can kill you, put part of your soul in a phylactery, and re-animate the body for you to inhabit and use, stopping it from ever rotting should be a breeze. (After all, a 5th-level wizard can do that - and more - for 5 days per 3rd-level spell slot, at no cost.)

The sort of rot the undead experience may be a product of negative energy, rather than micro-organisms. Since growth and positive energy are linked, then decay and negative energy could also be linked.

The rot smell is the undoing of life due to negative energy.

Or something like that.

There's a spell in LM, I think, called disguise undead. Like +10 to disguise their undead nature.

[Dhavaer]

But isn't the process of becoming a lich described as something so horrible that only those truly evil would ever go down that path?

It isn't really described at all, IIRC.

[Telonius]

Even Xykon has friends. Being horribly, irrevocably evil doesn't mean that you can't like the people that like you.

[senrath]

It isn't really described at all, IIRC.

I think it's mentioned in the description of liches in the MM.

[Yeril]

Hmm, I remember webcomic with a friendly male lich, who had reached a point in his unlife where he got bored with adventuring and arcane might, and just wants to sit in his tower reading romance novels and having a cup of tea.

Hmm, the comic had a mindflayer, a psyco elf barbarian, and a chaotic horny halfling monk who would hit on anything with a wisdom score.

Mindflayered I think. Fairly decent comic.

[Khanderas]

Hmm, I remember webcomic with a friendly male lich, who had reached a point in his unlife where he got bored with adventuring and arcane might, and just wants to sit in his tower reading romance novels and having a cup of tea.

Hmm, the comic had a mindflayer, a psyco elf barbarian, and a chaotic horny halfling monk who would hit on anything with a wisdom score.

Mindflayered I think. Fairly decent comic.
yes. Mindflayed
the comic is discontinued now though.

[Mr. Friendly]

But isn't the process of becoming a lich described as something so horrible that only those truly evil would ever go down that path?

Yeah, it really doesn't go beyond saying "Oh yeah - you are totally evil now"; which is pretty lame. The only possible explainations (other than DM fiat) for why you become evil are:

The process of becoming undead requires an infusion of Negative Energy, which is basically like Liquid Evil.

Voluntarily killing yourself to gain immortality violates the natural order.

I think 4e will give us Unaligned Liches, thanks to the Shadowfell.

[Crowheart]

I have to say it. I'm sorry.


"Where my liches at?"

Forgive me. -.-;

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, it really doesn't go beyond saying "Oh yeah - you are totally evil now"; which is pretty lame. The only possible explainations (other than DM fiat) for why you become evil are:

The process of becoming undead requires an infusion of Negative Energy, which is basically like Liquid Evil.

Voluntarily killing yourself to gain immortality violates the natural order.

I think 4e will give us Unaligned Liches, thanks to the Shadowfell.

Meh, if anything, that's a chaotic action, since its prosecuted by the Maruts. Negative energy isn't liquid evil, either; you can have good aligned Doomguards (they can't be lawful, which is interesting), who are effectively clerics of negative energy, and Ragnorra was quite clearly an evil example of positive energy.

In fact, it would be more accurate to say that positive energy = law, while negative energy = chaos, but it's still not very satisfactory.


I have to say it. I'm sorry.


Where my liches at?

Forgive me. -.-;
:smallsigh:

[Tsotha-lanti]

But isn't the process of becoming a lich described as something so horrible that only those truly evil would ever go down that path?

Except, you know, when it isn't. Again, baelnorns (elven liches who act as heads of houses and as tomb-guardians) and archliches. Both Good by default. Allowing for liches of all alignments (minor modifications to abilities optional) is obviously a non-issue.

The only lichification processes I've read descriptions for are both for Dark Sun "liches". They're definitely very gruesome, but are also very specific (to the extent that the creatures aren't actually liches; they're Athasian equivalents).

[Konig]

If you're having trouble reconciling beauty with a lich, consider a lich with an alabaster mask & well cared for vestments.

The rotting visage is mostly there for fluff, so you might also consider a lich who bathes regularly in a bath of mild acid to keep the decomposition at bay.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The Lich in question could be advanced (advanced undead template) so she would have fast healing. The fast healing would patch up wounds including, presumably, the slow degeneration of her undead flesh.

[MelkorsHalo]

The Lich in question could be advanced (advanced undead template) so she would have fast healing. The fast healing would patch up wounds including, presumably, the slow degeneration of her undead flesh.

i'm pretty sure you meant evolved undead.

[Khatoblepas]

I would have thought that negative energy liches don't generally rot anyway, due to rotting being an effect of bacteria, which definitely wouldn't survive on a Lich. (1d8 negative energy touch? I think no amoebas would thrive on that) so the decay would be due to time and wear on the body by the Lich itself. I'm also sure that if it was killed and reformed, it would reform as the original body, not the body that was last killed.

So Liches can't really have an unholy visage unless they really want to. (and if there's time between their death and the possession of the body by the soul, bacteria might be able to eat it then.)

Positive Energy Liches DO, however, seem to be able to rot, unless their touch grants temporary HP. That way the bacteria trying to eat it's flesh would be killed in Death by Awesome.

Take into account also that liches heal normally, and that their exersion damages them in a way that would be healed by living creatures normally. Does the lich heal muscle tearing normally? If not a particularily active lich would wear away, while a bookworm lich would not.

Liches also cannot replenish their bodies with water, so the eyes are really a no go in terms of keeping them. It's not as if they NEED eyes to see. It's a tradition, and old charter or something. You can replace them with something to fill your goggle slots, anyway, and other characters can't steal it.

A Shirt of Gentle Repose appears to be the best option. If you make a slotless item and swallow it that works too. You won't digest it. Hah, "Pill of Gentle Repose."

Interesting.

[Mr. Friendly]

My personal interpretation of liches has always been that the process of becoming a lich involves drinking a strong poison that kills the body (I think this was mentioned in 1e, or somehwere..); the reanimation process causes the lich to rise as a skeleton - ergo, all liches are skeletal. That is my own PoV though.

[Chronos]

I would have thought that negative energy liches don't generally rot anyway, due to rotting being an effect of bacteria, which definitely wouldn't survive on a Lich. (1d8 negative energy touch? I think no amoebas would thrive on that) so the decay would be due to time and wear on the body by the Lich itself.What are these "bacteria" of which you speak? Are they some sort of manifestation of negative energy? Because as everyone knows, negative energy is what causes decay.

[GrassyGnoll]

If you're having trouble reconciling beauty with a lich, consider a lich with an alabaster mask & well cared for vestments.

The rotting visage is mostly there for fluff, so you might also consider a lich who bathes regularly in a bath of mild acid to keep the decomposition at bay.

Yeah, I'm starting to think they'd just end up looking like a freakishly pale human with glazed over eyes. There'd have to be some spa treatment business they go through, a natural yet obsessive regiment of cleansing and maintenance processes.

There seems to be some confusion over the "compassionate" vs "beautiful" lich. The lich could simply care for its own loved ones, the caring undead the character will have dealt with will be ghosts and such. Ghosts are flexible in alignment and fit well since they have the unfinished business of raising said character, but are there any other preferably corporeal undead with a soft spot or sense of obligation with no need to feed beyond livestock?

[Collin152]

My personal interpretation of liches has always been that the process of becoming a lich involves drinking a strong poison that kills the body (I think this was mentioned in 1e, or somehwere..); the reanimation process causes the lich to rise as a skeleton - ergo, all liches are skeletal. That is my own PoV though.

I never view liches as skeletal unless they've been around for a while.
I consider negative energy to be a mild preservative, given how long zombies stay zombies.

[RyanM]

I've always wanted to make a Lich NPC that's basically a senile old wizard who died one day... and didn't notice.

[Collin152]

I've always wanted to make a Lich NPC that's basically a senile old wizard who died one day... and didn't notice.

Seems like he'd have to be insane, seeign as wisdom goes up with age, not down.
"Oops, lost a finger. Oh well, that's leprosy for you."

[senrath]

I've always wanted to make a Lich NPC that's basically a senile old wizard who died one day... and didn't notice.

Only problem is that you have to willingly become a lich.

[Collin152]

Only problem is that you have to willingly become a lich.

Note: NPC. It doesn't matter what the template requirements are.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

*sees pic*

*considers taking the Lich-Loved feat*

Wait, waaaait....

Are we looking at the same picture here? With the winged creature in the upper right being a gray, partially skeletonized thing, the gender of which is only discernable in that there are great big, baggy, deflated looking jugs supported only tenuously by something akin to a metal brassiere? The same winged figure with the hollow cheeks and the dry, leather skin stretched taut against the ghastly rib cage? The very same winged figure with scary claw hands and the old-lady elbows?

I pray, for your sake, that you were being facetious.

-Blue

[mikethepoor]

I've always wanted to make a Lich NPC that's basically a senile old wizard who died one day... and didn't notice.

Except for the senile part, I'm trying to make my wizard PC do that, with DM's permission.

[Maerok]

Maybe the typically gender outlook would put males in a position to become liches more readily, but a female lich would be far from unheard of. There are plenty of ways to disguise and alter the appearance of the undead, especially intelligent undead with magic powers.

Libris Mortis provided the Good Lich variant which I foresee as having far less gross decay and more of a regal aged look than being a skeleton. The reason for a Good Lich would be a sort of eternal guardian, where time no longer becomes a restriction. I would think that the means of achieving Good Lich status would leave one significantly more human-like (and perhaps perfectly preserved such that one could rarely tell).

[senrath]

Note: NPC. It doesn't matter what the template requirements are.

That doesn't really make much sense. Considering this part of the Lich's description:

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

It wouldn't make much sense for anyone, even an NPC to become a lich without noticing.

[graymachine]

Wait, waaaait....

Are we looking at the same picture here? With the winged creature in the upper right being a gray, partially skeletonized thing, the gender of which is only discernable in that there are great big, baggy, deflated looking jugs supported only tenuously by something akin to a metal brassiere? The same winged figure with the hollow cheeks and the dry, leather skin stretched taut against the ghastly rib cage? The very same winged figure with scary claw hands and the old-lady elbows?

I pray, for your sake, that you were being facetious.

-Blue

Well... Some of us are more... enthusiastic... about the undead than others.

O.o

[TheCountAlucard]

It wouldn't make much sense for anyone, even an NPC to become a lich without noticing.

Well, there is the "Senile Lihc" (deliberately mispelled) in Kingdom of Loathing. He accidentally became a lich while attempting to make breakfast... O_o;;

[Collin152]

That doesn't really make much sense. Considering this part of the Lich's description:


It wouldn't make much sense for anyone, even an NPC to become a lich without noticing.

NPC. As in, DM does whatever the hell he wants.

[Demented]

Well, there is the "Senile Lihc" (deliberately mispelled) in Kingdom of Loathing. He accidentally became a lich while attempting to make breakfast... O_o;;

Combine with the requirement of having to do something unspeakably evil to make breakfast.

*thinks for a moment*

Actually, creating a new variety of modern breakfast cereal could count. Glee! :smallbiggrin:

[Collin152]

Combine with the requirement of having to do something unspeakably evil to make breakfast.

*thinks for a moment*

Actually, creating a new variety of modern breakfast cereal could count. Glee! :smallbiggrin:

Can't make an omlette without exposing millions of innocent people to years of prolonged suffering and grief.

[streakster]

Unguent of Timelessness ought to help out here.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeah, it really doesn't go beyond saying "Oh yeah - you are totally evil now"; which is pretty lame. The only possible explainations (other than DM fiat) for why you become evil are:

The process of becoming undead requires an infusion of Negative Energy, which is basically like Liquid Evil.

Voluntarily killing yourself to gain immortality violates the natural order.

Or maybe undead, having no functioning brains or endocrine systems, have fundamental psychological differences from mortals. Maybe the undead are incapable of feeling empathy. One possibility I've heard of: The call of death is so strong that all intelligent undead must be obsessively fixated on whatever they valued most in life--any less, and they'd have opted to end their unnatural existence on their own long ago.


It wouldn't make much sense for anyone, even an NPC to become a lich without noticing.

Perhaps he was making tea, only he accidentally made lichification poison instead because he mistook a Tome of Dark Lore for his cookbook. And then he accidentally sacrificed a thousand infants when, while attempting to cast the prestidigation spell, he accidentally read off of a scroll of apocalypse from the sky.

[streakster]

Or he's just too absent-minded to actually get any evil done, so he's a neutral lich instead.

...
"Oh dear, did I get any evil done today? Hey, innocent villagers, did I already torture and kill you?"
"Ummm...yes?"
...
"Slaughter the boars, feed them to the villagers...is that backwards?"
...
"Cower mortal! I am here to mai - mair - maig, ugh, can't read my own writing - mail? I am here to mail you? Does that sound right? Will mithril do?"
...

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

Well... Some of us are more... enthusiastic... about the undead than others.

O.o

...

I wish my imagination came with a fusebox, because right now, I'd be ripping all the wires out in a mad effort to stave off permanent damage to my sweet, fragile psyche.

In all seriousness to the OP, I think what people have said pretty much covers the lack of lady liches. We're vain creatures, women, and be flip out over the tiniest of wrinkles. If it makes our skin rot off and our fun bags deflate, we're pretty much not going to do it.

-Blue

[RyanM]

The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character.

I think that means more like, you cannot force someone to become a lich against their will. But if they have no real feelings about it either way (like if they don't even notice), it could still happen. That's my interpretation, anyway.

Also, on the negative energy vs. bacteria thing, given the quasi-medieval flavor of D&D, what if negative energy is bacteria? Medieval people didn't know about micro-organisms. "Negative energy" is probably about the only way they'd have of describing disease. And doesn't negative energy cause disease anyway? I forget. So once per round, a lich can do 1d8+5 bacteria damage, or something like that. And it's actually special bacteria that reanimate the dead into zombies, by taking control of the central nervous system.

Despite all the fluff about "evil" and "negative energy," it seems like the main thing to being a lich is to create a phylactery, and have fancy schmancy enhantments on it so that your soul is now tied to the phylactery rather than to your usual mortal shell, and it creates a new body for you on destruction of the old one.

Actually, that gives me a backstory idea for this guy.

In his youth, he was an incredible artist, the best the world had ever seen. He able to create things of indescribable beauty; the weaker-willed could sometimes find themselves utterly captivated by his art, unable to tear their gaze away from it (Will save DC 10 or become fascinated for 1d8 hours). But none of his works were ever good enough for him. Eventually, he decided to try and craft perfection itself.

For decades he labored, literally pouring his soul into his creation, barely eating, never sleeping. Finally, over 50 years later, it was done. Perfection. But just the sight of Perfection itself, after many long years of exertion, was enough to drive him insane (on seeing his Magnum Opus, you must make a DC 20 Will save or be rendered insane for 1d8 hours; if you fail, save DC 20 again or be permanently insane; in this case, "insane" means your Wisdom is reduced to 3). Now as old man with a case of galloping senility, he could only dodder around his old workshop, marveling at his old creations. Eventually his mortal shell passed away, but his soul remained, tied to his masterpiece...

[bosssmiley]

Do archliches count as liches for the purposes of the OP's question?
If so there's Lady Saharel of Spellguard, an archlich in the Forgotten Realms setting bound to the world by her love for Ed Greenwood's Marty Stu character (*retch!*). She's outlined in LEoF IIRC.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Do archliches count as liches for the purposes of the OP's question?
If so there's Lady Saharel of Spellguard, an archlich in the Forgotten Realms setting bound to the world by her love for Ed Greenwood's Marty Stu character (*retch!*). She's outlined in LEoF IIRC.

There's also Alathene Moonstar (CG female archlich Illuskan human wizard 15/arcane devotee 5 of Selûne) in Waterdeep, who influences House Moonstar behind the scenes and struggles against Vanrak Moonstar, the death knight of Vanrakdoom in the Undermountain.