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Kami2awa
2008-03-28, 03:19 AM
In many D&D stories including OOTS, spellcasters are neutralised by being imprisoned in a cell flooded with a permanent antimagic field. However, the antimagic field spell doesn't work this way; it creates a spherical field which is always centred on the caster, and can't be made Permanent. How therefore can anyone make an AMF cell without spending tens of thousands of gp to enchant it as a magic item?

Khanderas
2008-03-28, 03:32 AM
You can keep the caster comatose, poison, psionics or such.
If it is a permanent sentence. Leveldrain to level 1.
Demiplanes.
Take his spellbook after you have him exhaust his spells.
DM invents a spellritual / substance, that over a farily long time (hours for ritual, days for substance, that would be a fixture in the cell) drains spellslots.
Special curse, that causes incredible pain if he tries to cast (Very high concentration DC).

Well the above is more, ways to keep a caster imprisoned.
Making AMF prison cells would if by RAW cost a fistful of cash and AMF in an item. Cost should matter little, since anyone who needs to lock up a caster, should be part of a goverment and they got to make that investment.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-28, 03:46 AM
While this doesn't really have anything to do with antimagic cells, casting Feeblemind would stop the spellcaster from being able to cast anything. For spellcasters without Still and Silent spell, removing their hands and tongue would also stop them from casting anything (or just keeping them gagged with their hands tied), and at high levels, Imprisonment and Binding spells could be used (these ideas was suggested in a thread about asylums which somone started a while back).

Hazkali
2008-03-28, 03:55 AM
I would just invent a material that acts as an Antimagic Field for anyone standing on it- say 'lodestone'. Perhaps the government has a monopoly on the lodestone quarries and so not many people have access to it, but the PCs might be able to get some lodestone dust on the black market that could duplicate the effect of a static AM field for a couple of minutes.

Khanderas
2008-03-28, 04:15 AM
In one of the Dragon magazine issues there was a mention of a prison in a "caster town" on a small planet of Limbo.
"the person is forced to don a robe of helplessness and put in a small cell. A Wall of Stone is conjured up over the exit, leaving only a small opening to watch the prisoner though. The traits of Limbo leaves no need for the prisoner to eat, breathe or age and is often forgotten for years at a time"

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-28, 04:20 AM
Don't know if they are Complete Arcane or in MIC, but in the old Arms and equipment it had 120,000gp Anti-Magic Manacles. For as long as they were attached to someone, they would have AMF centered on them.

Of course there was something about drawing the power from the person with it equipped too, so if the caster could make a DC whatever check and get one hand out then he could teleport out of the cell and take your fancy manacles with him. (A good way to give him back WBL since his other gear probably styed in lockdown.)

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-28, 04:25 AM
Just thinking about what happens on Limbo: wouldn't just killing the prisoner be more humane in that scenario? (I'm assuming they would go mad from boredom).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-28, 04:38 AM
Just thinking about what happens on Limbo: wouldn't just killing the prisoner be more humane in that scenario? (I'm assuming they would go mad from boredom).

1) Limbo isn't exactly about being humane.

2) Limbo is where you go when you die in some situations, so what happens when you die after dieing? Who knows?

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-28, 04:43 AM
Oh, they just have Epic Hamsters with Permanant Emanation: Anti-Magic Field feat in those cells. They're genetically engineered, you see.

Khanderas
2008-03-28, 04:46 AM
Just thinking about what happens on Limbo: wouldn't just killing the prisoner be more humane in that scenario? (I'm assuming they would go mad from boredom).
1) Limbo isn't exactly about being humane.

2) Limbo is where you go when you die in some situations, so what happens when you die after dieing? Who knows?
Well yeah, does seem quite vindictive. Especially when you consider this colony (N'gati) was founded by a Good wizard from the material plane who just wanted a place to study (Limbo = no age = immortal), but invited friends and collegues on... then visited the material plane for a while to raise a family, and in his absence the place got quite overcrowded, with a very high percentage of Wizards and other scholars.

So the inventors of that prison are Good aligned ppl (Good to Neutral anyway), and not semi-mad , irredimably evil Gith as one may think at first.

Being scholars who moved there to achive virtual immortality, execution for crimes was problebly never an option, and they needed something to keep sentenced caster neutralised nonetheless.
Heck, death in the DnD universe is just a res away anyway.

A bit of background talk ending with me saying, Yeah, I agree. Harsh . Real Harsh. Then again, someone Evil would end up in Hell and its probelbly not much better.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-28, 05:10 AM
That is a good point (when you said it was a planet, I didn;t realise it was pafrt of Limbo. Sorry for getting confused).

Thoughtbot360
2008-03-28, 05:13 AM
You can keep the caster comatose, poison, psionics or such.
If it is a permanent sentence. Leveldrain to level 1.
Demiplanes.
Take his spellbook after you have him exhaust his spells.
DM invents a spellritual / substance, that over a farily long time (hours for ritual, days for substance, that would be a fixture in the cell) drains spellslots.
Special curse, that causes incredible pain if he tries to cast (Very high concentration DC).

Well the above is more, ways to keep a caster imprisoned.
Making AMF prison cells would if by RAW cost a fistful of cash and AMF in an item. Cost should matter little, since anyone who needs to lock up a caster, should be part of a goverment and they got to make that investment.

You know, this brings up a point that frustrates me to no end when thinking about what a 3.x edition world looks like:

The government has enough money, okay. But now you need to find a caster who has the AMF spell and is willing to make the cell for you.

An interesting point that could be made here is that an anti-arcane society simply cannot have in their possession any anti-magic items. (without a lot of hypocracy, at least.) Also, if they make many cells, a magic tolerant kingdom still needs enough high level wizards intimidated enough by local authority (meh, or I guess they're just loyal and good-aligned and freaking peace-loving hippies and such, but I'd like to think that civilization isn't doomed the moment one of them Snaps.) enough to have *not* become liches and started using necromancy on their (1st level commoner) citizens to build their own empire of undeath.

But more than that. The Magic item shop. The only explanation for why a magic item shop exists (by 3rd edition rules) is that there are a handful of 10th+ level casters devoting their lives to producing the various potions, wands, weapon, wondrous items, so that the "heroes of destiny" (AKA the PCs), who might be 5 or even more levels *under* them can waste their money on personal healing items that aren't the Healing Belt (little inside joke there, you'd have to read the Magic Item Compendium to understand. But seriously, Cure critical potions...ugh.)

Anyway...if the guy who runs the shop that every serious adventurer (as in, starting 2nd level) has to visit is 10th+ level.....And he's running a 9 to 5 job instead of being an saving/conquering the world himself....then how low down the totem pole is the average level 5-7 (or lower) adventuring party? Do village elders call out to starter PCs "We desperately need heroes! The town is being oppressed by the vicious Goblin horde! Is there no one willing to step forward and save us?" or is it more like "Hey. We got like some Goblins with 1st level NPC classes bothering us. I'm much to busy to deal with them myself, so I'll give you 5 bucks if you can clear them out. I need it done by Noon, because I already scheduled a meeting with a contractor about what I want built on the ruins of the Goblin's stronghold, so hop to it!"

But if there isn't a sizeable population of "jobber" wizards whose level is in the double digits (and law enforcement strong enough to keep them line...at least as long as they act as individuals..) producing magic items, then what, ohohoh, what does anybody do with a bank account larger than 600 gp? Let alone 600,000 gp...

Basically, are high levels special or not? Actually, its a problem with what "levels" really are in any system that uses them. When you factor in the Epic player's handbook, or otherwise have no level cap, then the question becomes "what level is truly high level?" "When is your character something special in the grand scheme of things, and what happens to his relationship with the non-speciall society then?"

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-28, 05:24 AM
Those are really good points (I suppose it cold be assumed for some reason that the Experts who presumably operate magic shops have the ability to craft items using spells which they have no way of casting without UMD). Regarding the point about governments using anti-magic cells: it reminds me of the Church of Yevon in Final Fantasy 10 being allowed to use guns while everyone else isn;t due to "certain exceptions".

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-28, 05:28 AM
These are the questions. I would not inquire into them further. Those that do were found drifting inside an anti-gravity spell with a pair of d4s shoved up their nose.

cookie+milk for anyone who gets the badly mangled reference. I'm AFB right now so I can't fix it.

But yes, DnD settings are usually borked. I like the artificer and the magewright for helping with this, but WotC didn't even bother adjusting the world for the presence of magic, and the game reflects this. (pillar of salt)

Saph
2008-03-28, 07:06 AM
These are the questions. I would not inquire into them further. Those that do were found drifting inside an anti-gravity spell with a pair of d4s shoved up their nose.

cookie+milk for anyone who gets the badly mangled reference. I'm AFB right now so I can't fix it.

Petra talking to Ender Wiggin. :)

Re: the quantity of magic items, I just explain it by saying that the things last freaking forever. So even if at any one point in the history of the world there are only a handful of 10th+ level casters, over the millenia the items they've made have accumulated and accumulated and accumulated until now there are truckloads of them.

- Saph

Khanderas
2008-03-28, 07:27 AM
The government has enough money, okay. But now you need to find a caster who has the AMF spell and is willing to make the cell for you.

An interesting point that could be made here is that an anti-arcane society simply cannot have in their possession any anti-magic items. (without a lot of hypocracy, at least.) Also, if they make many cells, a magic tolerant kingdom still needs enough high level wizards intimidated enough by local authority (meh, or I guess they're just loyal and good-aligned and freaking peace-loving hippies and such, but I'd like to think that civilization isn't doomed the moment one of them Snaps.) enough to have *not* become liches and started using necromancy on their (1st level commoner) citizens to build their own empire of undeath.

But more than that. The Magic item shop. The only explanation for why a magic item shop exists (by 3rd edition rules) is that there are a handful of 10th+ level casters devoting their lives to producing the various potions, wands, weapon, wondrous items, so that the "heroes of destiny" (AKA the PCs), who might be 5 or even more levels *under* them can waste their money on personal healing items that aren't the Healing Belt (little inside joke there, you'd have to read the Magic Item Compendium to understand. But seriously, Cure critical potions...ugh.)

Anyway...if the guy who runs the shop that every serious adventurer (as in, starting 2nd level) has to visit is 10th+ level.....And he's running a 9 to 5 job instead of being an saving/conquering the world himself....then how low down the totem pole is the average level 5-7 (or lower) adventuring party? Do village elders call out to starter PCs "We desperately need heroes! The town is being oppressed by the vicious Goblin horde! Is there no one willing to step forward and save us?" or is it more like "Hey. We got like some Goblins with 1st level NPC classes bothering us. I'm much to busy to deal with them myself, so I'll give you 5 bucks if you can clear them out. I need it done by Noon, because I already scheduled a meeting with a contractor about what I want built on the ruins of the Goblin's stronghold, so hop to it!"

But if there isn't a sizeable population of "jobber" wizards whose level is in the double digits (and law enforcement strong enough to keep them line...at least as long as they act as individuals..) producing magic items, then what, ohohoh, what does anybody do with a bank account larger than 600 gp? Let alone 600,000 gp...

Basically, are high levels special or not? Actually, its a problem with what "levels" really are in any system that uses them. When you factor in the Epic player's handbook, or otherwise have no level cap, then the question becomes "what level is truly high level?" "When is your character something special in the grand scheme of things, and what happens to his relationship with the non-speciall society then?"
Well a Wizard may be loyal to the crown and therefore not fully opposed to doing the job. Besides, this gives goodwill to the caster (and casters as a whole, willingness to conform with local law) and money to fund whatever the Wizard wants funded.
As for 'Im a wizard so all AMF is bad for me and my kind'... if there were no AMF prison cells... death or release would be the only option with a lawbreaking caster. Neither would be a good thing for anyone.

Creating a magic item brings crapload of profits. Basically double your money. Many items are made to last forever (equipment) and consumables can be made in the comforts of your home. Since crafting stuff takes 1 day / 1000 gold worth, you make 500 gold profit per day at work. Good money for anyone. If you got a wife and kids or just plain is not intrested in crawling damp caverns for possibility of loot, this is a valid option. Or retired casters (see Roy's dad).
... On the record though, I do dislike the thought that whatever the players need / want would be for sale. But that there ARE things for sale, I see as quite natural.

Kami2awa
2008-03-28, 07:46 AM
Those are really good points (I suppose it cold be assumed for some reason that the Experts who presumably operate magic shops have the ability to craft items using spells which they have no way of casting without UMD). Regarding the point about governments using anti-magic cells: it reminds me of the Church of Yevon in Final Fantasy 10 being allowed to use guns while everyone else isn;t due to "certain exceptions".

And incredibly good security given that their shop has hundreds of thousands of gp worth of magic items in, and also given the presence of high level rogues, ethereal filchers and similar super-thieves.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-28, 07:48 AM
I'd forgotten about that as well (especially since he local guards really need to be about as compitant as the Walmington-on-Sea Home Guard in "Dad's Army" to justify the fact that adventurers are needed to take care of threats to the towns).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-28, 11:05 AM
A magic item with a permanent antimagic field effect. (Of course that brings up the old debate about whether the item would keep suppressing itself.)

Simpler explanation: it's just that way. Everything the DM puts in the world doesn't have to be replicable by other means; or are all your interplanar rifts just gate spells?


2) Limbo is where you go when you die in some situations, so what happens when you die after dieing? Who knows?

Pretty sure dead petitioners' essences are absorbed into the plane and used to form new petitioners.


Also, anti-arcane societies can use clerics. AMF is 8th level for them, but it's still available.

streakster
2008-03-28, 11:14 AM
My personal explanation for the magic mart is a altered version of the Artificer class. Make it much less effective at combat and UMD, make item manufacturing take longer, and then give this class to an NPC. Now, instead of high-level wizards running about, you've got an average guy who just knows how to make magic things. Doesn't even have the power to use most of what he makes. Much more acceptable.

Another explanation is that they come from imprisoned djinn and other magical creatures. That was the explanation in the Nightside series for where all the magic trinkets come from - fairy sweatshops.

EvilElitest
2008-03-28, 11:19 AM
While this doesn't really have anything to do with antimagic cells, casting Feeblemind would stop the spellcaster from being able to cast anything. For spellcasters without Still and Silent spell, removing their hands and tongue would also stop them from casting anything (or just keeping them gagged with their hands tied), and at high levels, Imprisonment and Binding spells could be used (these ideas was suggested in a thread about asylums which somone started a while back).

Actually, there are advantages to feeblemind over anti magic


1. Even if the caster is out magic wise, with anti magic he can still think of a way out of it.
2. With Anti magic the caster is in action the moment he gets out of the range, while the feeble mind makes himuseless until the spell is gone
3. A feebleminded person will only hinder anyone trying to rescue them
4. None casters are greatly hindered, and people who normally only have a few spells are in trouble
5. It is a lot easier to take care of the prisoners

Problem is however, anyone trying to break into the prison will have their magical powers available, where a normal anti magic cell pervents wizards from attacking the cell
from
EE

tyckspoon
2008-03-28, 11:49 AM
My personal explanation for the magic mart is a altered version of the Artificer class. Make it much less effective at combat and UMD, make item manufacturing take longer, and then give this class to an NPC. Now, instead of high-level wizards running about, you've got an average guy who just knows how to make magic things. Doesn't even have the power to use most of what he makes. Much more acceptable.


It probably wouldn't surprise you to hear that the same setting that introduced artificers did this too- they're called magewrights, IIRC. Same PC/NPC class relation as the Fighter/Warrior or a real spellcaster to the Adept.

streakster
2008-03-28, 12:00 PM
I thought they existed somewhere. That makes sense. I knew I got them somewhere. Thanks tyck!

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-28, 12:15 PM
Actually, there are advantages to feeblemind over anti magic

Disadvantages consist of: Wizard casts Teleport, grabs Wizard buddy, casts teleport, goes to find Cleric to sure Wizard.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 12:22 PM
In many D&D stories including OOTS, spellcasters are neutralised by being imprisoned in a cell flooded with a permanent antimagic field. However, the antimagic field spell doesn't work this way; it creates a spherical field which is always centred on the caster, and can't be made Permanent. How therefore can anyone make an AMF cell without spending tens of thousands of gp to enchant it as a magic item?

Hmm...

Well, as a "periodic automatic reset trap" and a 6th level spell, an effectively permanent Anti-Magic Field costs 33,000 gp and 2,640 xp to craft. Very pricy.

As an always-on magic item, guidelines suggest 198,000 gp. Cursing it so the wearer can't remove it should bring that down somewhat.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-03-28, 01:05 PM
However, the antimagic field spell doesn't work this way; it creates a spherical field which is always centred on the caster, and can't be made Permanent.
But see, the thing is when crafting an item, the item's effect doesn't necessarily duplicate exactly whatever spell(s) are used as a prerequisite. A +1 flaming (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsAW.html#flaming) sword would be quite dangerous if it exactly replicated flame strike or fireball.

You just have to build the room as you would a magic item. The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook refers to such rooms as Wondrous Architecture. And, whaddayaknow—that book's list of wondrous architecture even includes rooms with sigils of anitmagic, which generate an antimagic field completely filling a 4,000 cubic ft. room (i.e. 20 x 20 x 10). The really great part is that most Wondrous Architecture just requires Craft Wondrous Item, so you don't even need any abilities out of the ordinary.

Moogle0119
2008-03-28, 01:08 PM
I have a better solution than making a unique item. Have an Arcane Ooze (MM3, I think that's the name of this particular monster) trapped behind the wall of the cell and behind a stone wall so it can't reach the prisoner. Since I'm not near the books at the moment, I believe if the ooze is within x amount of feet from a spellcaster, then the spellcaster needs to start making Fortitude saves or lose spell slots. This effect occurs every round that the spellcaster stays within range of the ooze as well and I believe the effect can go through obstacles like walls and doors.

As long as the ooze remains in range and unable to interact/be interacted with the prisoner the effect is basically permanent as long as the prisoner is not moved. Now when you shove him into the cell for the first time make sure he's knocked out by subdual damage. At the earliest he'll wake up an hour later. With every round (10 rounds in a minute) that's 600 Fortitude saves he'll have to make. Assuming the spellcaster can only fail on a saving throw of 1, that's still 30 natural 1's he'll roll in that time. So 30 spellslots average an hour will be depleted that's not too shabby. If he's a stronger spellcaster just make sure you keep him knocked out for a day or two before waking him up.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-03-28, 01:21 PM
I have a better solution than making a unique item. Have an Arcane Ooze (MM3, I think that's the name of this particular monster) trapped behind the wall of the cell and behind a stone wall so it can't reach the prisoner.
1.) What's so bad about a "unique" item? Especially if you're the DM, which is the likely case if we're applying this to jail cells.

2.) The trick here would be finding away to restrain the ooze in a way that does not block line of effect for its spell-stealing ability.

Ascension
2008-03-28, 01:30 PM
If I were trying to explain the whole "magic mart" phenomenon, I would say that there was an ancient and highly magical civilization that fell into ruin when all the epic wizards started fighting each other. Actual wizards, sorcerers, and the like would be very rare in the present day, because the war destroyed the major schools which taught magic, killed off most of those with draconic blood, and left a severe social stigma on magic use in polite company, but the magic items left behind by the old civilization would be fairly plentiful. Groups of factotums, dungeon delvers, and other adventurous sorts would "mine" the ruins for magic items. Sort of like Dantooine post-Jedi in KOTOR II.

The catch would be that since the items would be the relics of an ancient society and not made-to-order, the PCs would never be certain what they would be able to get their hands on at any particular time. I would random roll off the magic item tables to see what items were for sale in the shops.

Flavorful, provides good quest hooks... might risk annoying your players, but overall I think it's a good explanation.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 01:56 PM
2.) The trick here would be finding away to restrain the ooze in a way that does not block line of effect for its spell-stealing ability.

Gravity, maybe? Ooze is in a pit underneath the cell, prisoner is on a grate with significantly more than enough opening to pass line of effect unhindered.

Moogle0119
2008-03-28, 01:58 PM
1.) What's so bad about a "unique" item? Especially if you're the DM, which is the likely case if we're applying this to jail cells.
Absolutely nothing wrong with them. It's just easier sometimes to use things from one of the books published rather than going through the time of making a new item.


2.) The trick here would be finding away to restrain the ooze in a way that does not block line of effect for its spell-stealing ability.
Luckily I already went over this fact in my first post.

[...]This effect occurs every round that the spellcaster stays within range of the ooze as well and I believe the effect can go through obstacles like walls and doors.

As long as the ooze remains in range and unable to interact/be interacted with the prisoner the effect is basically permanent as long as the prisoner is not moved.[...]
Of course I could be wrong on this instance, but I do believe their ability works through obstacles such as walls and doors.

Thoughtbot360
2008-03-28, 02:46 PM
Pretty sure dead petitioners' essences are absorbed into the plane and used to form new petitioners.


The D&D Multiverse. Where the good news is there *is* a verifiable afterlife, but the bad news is that you be killed once get there and not respawn (unless its Ysgard). Assuming your soul isn't eaten by a Demi-Lich first. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 03:00 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with them. It's just easier sometimes to use things from one of the books published rather than going through the time of making a new item.


Luckily I already went over this fact in my first post.

Of course I could be wrong on this instance, but I do believe their ability works through obstacles such as walls and doors.

By default, magical effects don't work without Line of Effect - plus, when I check the entry, it specifies that line of effect is necessary. So you just do a gravity separation. An Ooze is Huge, and this particular one is flat (only three feet thick) so you can seperate by gravity. Hard part is finding a surface it can't climb by taking 20 (need at least DC 34, which basically amounts to a perfectly smooth surface - good luck with that).

Chronos
2008-03-28, 03:34 PM
The way I like to run my magic marts, they're not so much merchants as facilitators. The businessman might have a small stock on hand of routine items-- potions, low-level scrolls, maybe a few +1 weapons or armors depending on how magical the campaign is or the size of the town. Anything bigger than that is run on a sort of non-inventory consignment system: You go to the shopowner, and show him the +3 sword you'd like to offload. He takes some notes, and looks into some contacts. A few weeks (or months, or years, depending on the supply and demand for the particular item) later, some other adventurer comes in looking for a magic sword. The magic merchant then looks you up, and puts you in contact with the guy who wants to buy it -- for a small fee, of course.

In effect, I wouldn't run the item economy like a magical Wal-mart; I'd run it like a magical eBay.

Moogle0119
2008-03-28, 03:35 PM
Hmm ok. I know that normal spells and effects do indeed need Line of Effect in order to work, however I thought the Arcane Ooze was specifically mentioned as to being able to avoid this. Seems my old DM was using that trick to screw us over back then by using an arcane ooze in another room to drain us of spells (a room we hadn't even opened the door to yet) which is why I believed it could. Luckily we quit his games a while back.

As for the problem of keeping the Arcane Ooze from climbing up the walls I suppose you could always make it so that the Arcane Ooze would not only have to climb up the wall, but also across the ceiling (a ceiling with no hand-holds) of it's chamber in order to enter through a smaller opening which would directly below the spellcaster's feet. Might be a bit tricky to draw out the room in a way that the spellcaster is affected by the Ooze's prescence most of the time, but if he's knocked out and occasionally for a few minutes the Ooze and spellcaster don't have Line of Effect it shouldn't matter since the spellcaster will already be drained.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 03:51 PM
As for the problem of keeping the Arcane Ooze from climbing up the walls I suppose you could always make it so that the Arcane Ooze would not only have to climb up the wall, but also across the ceiling (a ceiling with no hand-holds) of it's chamber in order to enter through a smaller opening which would directly below the spellcaster's feet. Might be a bit tricky to draw out the room in a way that the spellcaster is affected by the Ooze's prescence most of the time, but if he's knocked out and occasionally for a few minutes the Ooze and spellcaster don't have Line of Effect it shouldn't matter since the spellcaster will already be drained.
Hmm... dangle the spellcasters in cages in a large room... with a greased ceiling... yes, that'd do it...

Mind you, a Sorcerer (or other spontaneous caster) has a window of opportunity to escape: just after spell retrieval. A Wizard (or other book caster) also has a window (if the Wizard can prepare spells without a book) just after preparation. Both for the same reason: Spell slots don't exist until that initial setup time, so they can't be drained before then. The Wizard simply needs to prepare two copies of an escape spell to be certain that the Wizard has at least one round to flee, even on a failed Fort save.

Mind you, if you can get your hands on some Flux Slime (CR 21 "epic" obstacle), you've got a 10-foot radius antimagic field that'll last as long as the slime does.

TigerHunter
2008-03-28, 03:52 PM
Hmm ok. I know that normal spells and effects do indeed need Line of Effect in order to work, however I thought the Arcane Ooze was specifically mentioned as to being able to avoid this. Seems my old DM was using that trick to screw us over back then by using an arcane ooze in another room to drain us of spells (a room we hadn't even opened the door to yet) which is why I believed it could. Luckily we quit his games a while back.

As for the problem of keeping the Arcane Ooze from climbing up the walls I suppose you could always make it so that the Arcane Ooze would not only have to climb up the wall, but also across the ceiling (a ceiling with no hand-holds) of it's chamber in order to enter through a smaller opening which would directly below the spellcaster's feet. Might be a bit tricky to draw out the room in a way that the spellcaster is affected by the Ooze's prescence most of the time, but if he's knocked out and occasionally for a few minutes the Ooze and spellcaster don't have Line of Effect it shouldn't matter since the spellcaster will already be drained.
This sounds significantly less "easy" than just inventing a new item.

Chronos
2008-03-28, 04:08 PM
Mind you, if you can get your hands on some Flux Slime (CR 21 "epic" obstacle), you've got a 10-foot radius antimagic field that'll last as long as the slime does.Ah, yes, the epic obstacle that can be defeated effortlessly by a commoner-1 with some firewood and a flint.

Moogle0119
2008-03-28, 04:08 PM
This sounds significantly less "easy" than just inventing a new item.
True, but it is doable by the rules rather than creating something new. Also it would work if it was a kingdom that had a permanent ban on spellcasters (because who would create such Wonderous Items if not spellcasters?).

Also what book is the Flux Slime from?

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 04:15 PM
Ah, yes, the epic obstacle that can be defeated effortlessly by a commoner-1 with some firewood and a flint.
Hence the quotes, yes. Likewise, it can be bypassed with simple walking, which technically defeats the obstacle.


True, but it is doable by the rules rather than creating something new. Also it would work if it was a kingdom that had a permanent ban on spellcasters (because who would create such Wonderous Items if not spellcasters?).

Also what book is the Flux Slime from?

Epic Level Handbook; it's also available in the Epic section of the SRD: Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#fluxSlime).

GoC
2008-03-28, 05:15 PM
Actually, there are advantages to feeblemind over anti magic


1. Even if the caster is out magic wise, with anti magic he can still think of a way out of it.
2. With Anti magic the caster is in action the moment he gets out of the range, while the feeble mind makes himuseless until the spell is gone
3. A feebleminded person will only hinder anyone trying to rescue them
4. None casters are greatly hindered, and people who normally only have a few spells are in trouble
5. It is a lot easier to take care of the prisoners

You're forgetting a little thing called "ethics"...

Jack_Simth
2008-03-28, 05:23 PM
You're forgetting a little thing called "ethics"...

Well, you could also use Imprisonment, Temporal Stasis, Trap the Soul, Polymorph Any Object (turn them into a harmless animal after rendering them unconscious, and put THAT in a cage), or Flesh to Stone.

All can be reversed (although Flesh to Stone has a slight death chance on reversal) and bring down the cost of maintenance.

Feeblemind is fairly easily reversible by the time you can cast it - Heal is a 5th level Adept spell, 6th level Cleric spell, and will do the job without a roll. Other than the little aspect that it leaves them drooling idiots, it keeps people from getting clever.

Torger
2008-03-28, 05:34 PM
Stepping back from the Mage-E-Mart discussion, and back to the OP's topics. Anti-Magic cells exist because of Rule 0. The DM mandated them, so they're there. If the PCs are in them, they probably don't know how they work. If they're trying to build them, then they'll need to go on a quest for some magical doo-dads. Like Starfuries, magic prisons and items are driven by the plot.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-29, 03:09 AM
Wouldn't Baleful Polymorph be an option as well? While none of the optons are exactly ethical, you could give them the option of becoming a Wizard's familiar after using BP on them so that they don't fall victim to D&Ds rules concerning animal intelligence (unless they really couldn't be trusted).

Talic
2008-03-29, 04:21 AM
For the Faerunian mindset:

Entrance to the prison is a Gate Spell. This gate is heavily guarded.

The gate opens to a Genesis Demiplane. Among its effects are magic impeding. Caster Level check 45+ spell level to cast anything. Now build a prison.

Alternatively, for those who don't care about problems in the future.

Gate again. To a Genesis Demiplane. Among the effects are fast time. For every round that passes in the demiplane, 100 years pass in the prime material. Magic is impeded, as above. The prison? A 1 mile corridor, with a Gate back to the Prime Material at the end of it.

Scatter your villians across time. Forget about them.

Yahzi
2008-03-29, 12:40 PM
The Magic item shop.
That is an excellent point.

Here is my list of (useful) magic items you can get when your society has only 11th level or lower casters:




Priests
Periapt of WIS (+1-3)
Stone of Good Luck
Wizards
Cloak of Displacement
Brooch of Shielding
Bracers of Armor (+1-4)
Gloves of DEX (+1-3)
Wings of Flying
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Non-detection
Medallion of Thoughts
Circlet of Persuasion (reserved for landlords)
Both
Cloak of Resistance (+1-3)
Amulet of CON (+1-3)
Gauntlets of STR (+1)
Magic Weapons and Armor (+1-3)
Wands, Scrolls, and Potions

The Headband of Intellect, while highly sought after by wizards, can only be made by clerics until 11th level. Since there are no 11th level wizards in the Kingdom, and since priests really don’t care about wizards, these items cannot be purchased. Also, the Belt of STR and the Cloak of CHA cannot be made by anyone in the kingdom.
Note that all rings and staves require at least a 12th level caster, so none of them are made in the kingdom.


Edit: I think you can also make a Lyre of Building, which is totally awesome.

Arutema
2008-03-29, 01:09 PM
If dead magic zones exist in your campaign setting, just find a natural dead magic zone, and build a prison inside it.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 02:50 PM
Very interesting, this. I like the ooze idea.

However, you don't realize how rewarding crafting can be for wizards. The reason there's so many magic items around, despite their cost, is that they usually aren't ever destroyed. They just hang around, passing from owner to owner.

And the amount of money even a mediocre wizard can make by making potions, rings, weapons and armor is simply silly. There's an excellent expression for this coined by Neal Stephenson, but the mods would take offense to it. But consider this. Your average 11th level wizard can make items costing thousands of gp. Half that is profit if he retails it himself, to budding adventurers. Who are always buying, because they're making money too, but more dangerously. So if a wizard can make a 20,000 item himself, and he does, then he nets 10,000 gp. A manual laborer earns about 1sp a week, I think. 1gp every 10 weeks, so about 5.5 gp for a year. So this wizard, off this one item, can hire 1000 manual laborers for 10 years.

You can build pyramids. Armies. Mercenaries of high level are about 1gp per level per day? So a level 10 cohort for the next three years. Or two level 5s. 30 level 1 bodyguards for the next year.

This is using the profits off one item, mind you. If you split it up, gloves of dex take 4 days to craft. wizard makes 2000 gp profit per pair, 500 gp/day. Because of the math, he can be crafting nearly anything he can sell. It's 1 day per 1000 gp base price for most things, and he makes a 500 gp profit per day if it sells. He works for a month, and makes 4*7*500. 14 thousand gp. Enough for a longship, or half a pleasure yacht. He works for three months, buys that pleasure yacht, which needs 20 sailors. Sailors cost 1 sp/day, mates cost 4 times that. Call it 30 sp/day in running expenses(2 and a half mates and 20 sailors/yacht). 90 gp a month. 14k/90 is about 155 months. 13 years. So, for three months solid work, a wizard can make enough money to buy a boat and crew it with sailors for the next 13 years. As a demonstration of how damn rich wizards can get off crafting.

So yes, wizards are out there crafting all the time to keep up with demand. Because pleasure yachts are nice.

Collin152
2008-03-29, 03:05 PM
Pleasure yacht for 13 years

I raised your precious Pearl from the depths, and you've been captain for 13 years, have you not?

Having a ship for 13 years is bound to be bad luck.
And what wizzard would buy a ship without enchanting it?
And what wizard would use actual sailors? I'd use a fair amount of undead/permanent magical effects.

Torger
2008-03-29, 04:08 PM
All of which ignores the XP cost of magic items. Suddenly, the 11th level wizard is 7th level, and no longer can cast the spells needed to get to said pleasure yacht.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-29, 04:14 PM
All of which ignores the XP cost of magic items. Suddenly, the 11th level wizard is 7th level, and no longer can cast the spells needed to get to said pleasure yacht.

Be an artificer, and eat magic items for those XP.

OM NOM NOM NOM.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-29, 07:13 PM
Somewhere (not sure where) it said 1 XP is equal to 5 GP. Since the books come right out and say NPCs don't use the XP rules, then you're looking at only 250 gp profit per day, not 500, as they have to spend GP instead of XP.

Mewtarthio
2008-03-29, 07:26 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with them. It's just easier sometimes to use things from one of the books published rather than going through the time of making a new item.

Which is easier: Searching innumerable splatbooks for something that fits perfectly, or simply writing:

Sutrian Slave Shackles

These masterwork manacles have three effects on those who wear them:

If the wearer is ever more than one mile away from the shackles' key, he takes one point of nonlethal damage every round.
Every 24 hours, the wearer must make a DC 15 Will save or take 2 points of Charisma damage, unless his Charisma is less than 3.
The wearer cannot use any supernatural effects, spell- or psi-like ability, or spellcasting/manifesting.

Thoughtbot360
2008-03-29, 09:12 PM
All of which ignores the XP cost of magic items. Suddenly, the 11th level wizard is 7th level, and no longer can cast the spells needed to get to said pleasure yacht.

Actually, the XP cost is quite negligible (1/25 market price). The Assuming the Wizard *just* turned level 11 (55,000 XP), going back from 11 to 7 means an expenditure of at least 15,001 XP...and up to 23,000 XP to just avoid falling under level 6. (For perspective, It takes 28,000 to level up to 7). Also, to be 11th level, he can have anywhere between 55,000 and 65,999 XP. Therefore he could spend as much as 33,999 XP if he decided to fall all the way to 7th level.

He could produce up to 849,975 gp worth of magic items. Spending only 33,999 xp and half that number in gp with a 100% profit margin. All for the price of giving up 5th and 6th level spells for a bit. However, as longs as the Wizard paces himself, and continues to accumulate XP, he'll be fine and never even have to give up a single level.

But this brings up a question, namely, where do NPCs get their replacement XP? (No don't tell me because "the GM said so". We've gone this far. The individual GM could change systems entirely on us mid-session. Torger's argument hinges on using the rules, so I'll assume the GM in his world is using the rules too) There basically are no rules for NPC xp gathering, even though the DMG has rules for dictating the number and levels of each PC class a city has.

The biggest problem is perhaps defining what experience points really are.

They are ultimately, an abstraction. If xp were rewarded exclusively from killing things (which it isn't. You can have the monsters run away and still level up.), then its rather hard to imagine a stable civilization functioning since all the murderers of the world would eventually take over...then they would die and take all of their experience with them, leaving a huge power vacuum if his designated heir (if he had one) just didn't train hard enough (sooner or later, you get a lazy, or even Caligula-esque prince). Heck, those things are still a problem. Ultimately, you need to rule that the world isn't made up of level 1s. That somehow, some way, people are leveling. Probably in non-sucky classes.

Which is kind of unfair for the PCs who fought their way to level 11, but hey. There has to be an organization of "Prestige Class x" for the PCs to even get into it.


....I went off topic again, didn't I?

GoC
2008-03-29, 09:18 PM
Other than the little aspect that it leaves them drooling idiots, it keeps people from getting clever.
That's the whole point. All the rest of those just imprison you, feeblemind makes you stupid. How would you like to spend the rest of your life as a retard?

I'd personally prefer death or torture then to have my once brilliant mind reduced to that of Thog.


A manual laborer earns about 1sp a week
1 gp a week actually.

Instead of buying a pleasure yatch just make one!
Fabricate, a druid friend and some undead/summons/hired laborers and you're golden for only a few hundred gp!
In fact start a construction company with items of fabricate and wall of stone.:smallcool:

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 09:21 PM
Somewhere (not sure where) it said 1 XP is equal to 5 GP. Since the books come right out and say NPCs don't use the XP rules, then you're looking at only 250 gp profit per day, not 500, as they have to spend GP instead of XP.

Ah, excellent. Even better, because the wizard doesn't have to drop 4 levels to afford his yacht. And even if he did, it doesn't affect his earning curve until he loses Craft magic arms and armor, because higher-cost weapons take longer proportionally.

And then it takes 6 months of work to afford his pleasure yacht and 3 years of wages. Then, during those three years, he works an hour or two every morning to maintain everything.

Wizards will just spend all their time crafting, because they can make SO MUCH MONEY that way.

Edit: And the Wizard isn't even exploiting the obvious "Wall of Iron=lots and lots of real iron you can sell" way of making money. And he doesn't need any spells to make his pleasure yacht, which Torger doesn't seem to understand. He's buying it with pure cash. Mundane laborers don't need any spells at all, just money. Interestingly, I don't remember if making +1 swords required any spells at all, just caster level.

And yes, there's cheaper ways of getting pleasure yachts, using spells and the like. But that's not the point, the point was to demonstrate that wizards make (ah durn. I really want to use that expression. Poot) damn-you money. Yes, he can make one himself. But it's much cooler to pay someone else their weight in gold to build one.

Hey, wizards make 5 pounds of gold a day, 10 if they use their own xp. They're alchemists! :smallbiggrin:

EvilElitest
2008-03-29, 09:25 PM
You're forgetting a little thing called "ethics"...

compared to some other tortures and imprisonment methods i could use, i'm being somewhat nice. Ok, no i'm not, but hey, i'm the warden, my job isn't to be nice, i'm just to keep them from escaping.
from
EE

Torger
2008-03-29, 09:50 PM
And he doesn't need any spells to make his pleasure yacht, which Torger doesn't seem to understand. He's buying it with pure cash.

No, I understood you perfectly. It's just patently ridiculous. The Wizard, who had, apparently, devoted his life to a greater understanding of the mysteries of the arcane, and to bending those selfsame mysteries to his own will, just to turn around and say "%^&* it all. I'm going to sell the following bits of my soul and experience so I can live on a boat for a while." "What about greater power and arcane understanding?" "Screw that noise. I'm going into business!"

That attitude is far outside the "High Fantasy" setting that one generally tries to replicate, would, in any game I've ever ran or planned, have that character left behind and never spoken of again, and absolutely, completely, and totally derails the OP's question.

EvilElitest
2008-03-29, 09:57 PM
wait, mages can be hedonistic?
from
EE

Hawriel
2008-03-29, 09:58 PM
read some of your posts way to compilcated. Your the DM the cell is enchanted or made with material that is inharently antie magic because you say it is. There are antie magic items floating around in D&D land I know there where in second ed. If the target is a wizard its easy you beat the holey snot out of him strip him naked and toss him in a normal dungeon sell. No spell componets no spell book to study by the time the mage comes to his spells have faded from his mind. use vansian casting against the player. If you need to aply acid to any tatoos, or a hot poker. kill the familier.

If its a sorc well you can take an idea from shadowrun and use whats called a mage mask. Its a hood that tightly covers the head. It has no eye or ear holes. The mouth peace is a tube that is stuffed in the mouth so they can not talk yet thay can drink water and breath. the ears are coverd with speakers that blare load static noise to brake the mages consentration. Its actualy very unconstetutional but hay in shadowrun a mage just needs to think clearly in order to cast spells. Not unlike a sorc or similar caster in D&D. as for the hands bind the arms behind their backs at the elbows and rists. Then emobalise the hands. Tape the fingers to gether into a fist or bind them in some other way.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 10:08 PM
[snip], and absolutely, completely, and totally derails the OP's question. Guilty as charged. Sorry. I don't even remember how I got there, actually. Hmm.

But regardless, there's always corrupt bureaucrats willing to devote a few decades to the study of the arcane arts in order to make huge amounts of money. In any case, a wizard might do it in order to afford rare spell components, or some such. Spell copying is expensive, after all. Wizard's towers don't build themselves, you have to buy the tapestries, or stone, or light fixtures(oh wait. No you don't. Fabricate and wall of iron/stone) yourself. Wizards are sometimes hedonistic. They aren't above debasing their art to make a lot of money. That's how you buy spells from an NPC anyway.

As an anti-magic precaution, you could simply build a large use-activated item of Anti-magic field, the "use" in question being "Standing on the item" or even "being in the same room with the item" and use it as the floor. Not only would there be filthy rich wizards willing to fund such an item(to imprison their rivals, of course.), there would be a crafting elite willing to make it. Possibly Pro Bono.

V: I can't even begin to describe how scary that is.

Squash Monster
2008-03-29, 10:13 PM
The local sovereign has made a deal with the local mage's college. He looks the other way when they perform some of their more questionable experiments, and quietly provides some of his kingdom's lawbreakers as test subjects. In exchange, they lead under performing disciples on until they can cast 6th level spells. When the bad student reaches this point, they are taken to a remedial exam where they are asked to create a permanent anti-magic field on themselves. Once they have done this, the remedial exam room is flooded with poisonous gas and the proctor puts them all into permanent stasis. The hapless students are then brought to the prisons, where their bodies are worked into the floors, still emanating anti-magic.

Torger
2008-03-29, 10:59 PM
A "Student" that casts 6th level spells, should, by all rights be in his mid to late 20s. After all, look at the average starting age for a human Wizard, or, for a better model, Hollowfaust. They're trained since puberty in the arcane arts and are still only level three or four upon hitting adulthood.

There's way too much overthinking going on here. This is a real Rule Zero scenario.

Squash Monster
2008-03-29, 11:31 PM
A "Student" that casts 6th level spells, should, by all rights be in his mid to late 20s. After all, look at the average starting age for a human Wizard, or, for a better model, Hollowfaust. They're trained since puberty in the arcane arts and are still only level three or four upon hitting adulthood.

There's way too much overthinking going on here. This is a real Rule Zero scenario.Some magicians go off to study abroad for a few semesters. Some only stay for their bachelor's degree. Others still stay for their masters degree.

turkishproverb
2008-03-30, 12:21 AM
Some magicians go off to study abroad for a few semesters. Some only stay for their bachelor's degree. Others still stay for their masters degree.

And some are fed to the Beholder for failing to pay Tuition.

Dervag
2008-03-30, 12:36 AM
Well a Wizard may be loyal to the crown and therefore not fully opposed to doing the job. Besides, this gives goodwill to the caster (and casters as a whole, willingness to conform with local law) and money to fund whatever the Wizard wants funded.
As for 'Im a wizard so all AMF is bad for me and my kind'... if there were no AMF prison cells... death or release would be the only option with a lawbreaking caster. Neither would be a good thing for anyone.Right. Plus, wizards get better at attack faster than they get at defense. If you don't want to live alone, heavily warded in a private demiplane, you're vulnerable to the attacks of powerful wizards. So it's in your interests to create a dungeon cell capable of restraining powerful wizards.

For that matter, it's entirely possible that the ruler of the city is a powerful wizard (or other caster, you know what I mean). In which case they might create an antimagic dungeon cell because they might want to imprison an enemy caster.


Creating a magic item brings crapload of profits. Basically double your money. Many items are made to last forever (equipment) and consumables can be made in the comforts of your home. Since crafting stuff takes 1 day / 1000 gold worth, you make 500 gold profit per day at work. Good money for anyone. If you got a wife and kids or just plain is not intrested in crawling damp caverns for possibility of loot, this is a valid option. Or retired casters (see Roy's dad).Of course, you may not be able to pay the wizard for his services with a big pile of gold that you got by taxing peasants- see the Economicon for reference.


... On the record though, I do dislike the thought that whatever the players need / want would be for sale. But that there ARE things for sale, I see as quite natural.Yeah. Maybe the stock of a 'magic shop' should be determined by some kind of table that favors low-end cheap items.

I mean, potions of healing are going to be common. Low level casters can make them, even at power levels where they still have a use for gold coins and such. Therefore, they will be available in quantity. Whereas really powerful magic items will not be available in quantity, because only a few people can make them and those people are operating on an entirely different level of economics from the people who make up most of the rest of the world.

So if you want to find a potion of healing, you find "a humble purveyor of religious relics" and he'll probably have some. If you want a flaming axiomatic keen rapier +3, that's going to be harder. You may have to commission it specially, and you may have to go on a sidequest to obtain the specific items its maker wants in exchange.


Disadvantages consist of: Wizard casts Teleport, grabs Wizard buddy, casts teleport, goes to find Cleric to sure Wizard.Yeah. He pointed that out, too, in his last paragraph: "Problem is, anyone trying to break into the prison has their magic powers too..."


By default, magical effects don't work without Line of Effect - plus, when I check the entry, it specifies that line of effect is necessary. So you just do a gravity separation. An Ooze is Huge, and this particular one is flat (only three feet thick) so you can seperate by gravity. Hard part is finding a surface it can't climb by taking 20 (need at least DC 34, which basically amounts to a perfectly smooth surface - good luck with that).Put a trap on the wall between the grate and the pit of ooze- something that will discourage the ooze from trying to climb the walls without killing it.


You're forgetting a little thing called "ethics"...1)It's reversible at the power level at which it becomes truly necessary- if you're an authority figure powerful enough that you managed to capture a high level wizard and his friends won't be able to break him out immediately, then you can find a cleric to cast Heal on him.
2)It's not even unprecedented in real life.

In the real world, there have been innumerable cases in 'mental health' institutions where a particularly troublesome patient was given a lobotomy. Lobotomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy) involves the destruction or disablement of the prefrontal cortex of the brain- the part commonly associated with higher thought processes.

Even people not in mental health institutions were given lobotomies. During the 1940s and 50s, it was played up as an easy, no-complications way to 'calm' troublesome teenagers. Tens of thousands of people were lobotomized during this period- it helps put the modern craze for antidepressant drugs in perspective.

A lobotomy whose effects were on the heavy side could essentially duplicate the effects of the D&D feeblemind spell. For example, president John F. Kennedy's sister, Rosemary Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy) was lobotomized in 1941 at the age of 23. The operation had worse than average effects:

"lobotomy reduced Rosemary to an infantile mentality that left her incontinent and staring blankly at walls for hours. Her verbal skills were reduced to unintelligible babble. Her mother, Mrs. Rose Kennedy remarked that although the lobotomy stopped her daughter's violent behavior, it left her completely incapacitated"

Sounds like a reduction of intelligence and charisma scores to 1 to me, no? Again, the majority of lobotomy victims weren't disabled to that degree, but quite a few were, and even among most of the other cases the reduction was significant. And note that this wasn't generally being performed as a procedure to disable potentially dangerous criminals who could make things explode with their minds. It was being done to troublesome teenagers.

And, to make matters worse the procedure was utterly irreversible- brain function lost to a lobotomy can never be restored again by any means in the real world. Whereas in D&D the 'procedure' of feeblemind can be reversed in minutes by a suitably powerful cleric.

So I can easily see feeblemind being used by neutral or even certain good-aligned governments as a procedure for restraining spellcasters. Or powerful individuals of non-caster classes, for that matter.


No, I understood you perfectly. It's just patently ridiculous. The Wizard, who had, apparently, devoted his life to a greater understanding of the mysteries of the arcane, and to bending those selfsame mysteries to his own will, just to turn around and say "%^&* it all. I'm going to sell the following bits of my soul and experience so I can live on a boat for a while." "What about greater power and arcane understanding?" "Screw that noise. I'm going into business!"

That attitude is far outside the "High Fantasy" setting that one generally tries to replicate, would, in any game I've ever ran or planned, have that character left behind and never spoken of again, and absolutely, completely, and totally derails the OP's question.That seems a little bit harsh to me.

I mean, think about motivations for becoming a wizard:
"I like studying magic because I want to understand the secrets of the universe!"
"I want power over life and death!"
"I want to be able to create illusions so convincing that I can wrap myself in mysteries and disappear!"
"I want to rule the world! BWA-HA-HAA!"
Those are all 'valid' motivations, right? We can easily imagine wizards studying and training and practicing to attain those goals.

So why is
"I want to be rich, richer than Croesus, but all I have to work with is my brains because I'm not in line to inherit a fortune."
not a reasonable motivation?


A "Student" that casts 6th level spells, should, by all rights be in his mid to late 20s. After all, look at the average starting age for a human Wizard, or, for a better model, Hollowfaust. They're trained since puberty in the arcane arts and are still only level three or four upon hitting adulthood.As a physics major, I can confidently expect to be a "graduate student" into my mid to late 20s. What's the big deal?

FlyMolo
2008-03-30, 12:50 AM
If you're a high level adventurer, you can make silly amounts of money fairly quickly and dangerously, by taking it from dragons and such. This is bad if you have a wife and kids. It makes sense that a caster might pay 3/4 of the cost of an item and no xp, so he could keep on crafting until his old years, making swords and boards and armor for the young duffs out to make their fortune.

This effect means there's a supply of at least low-level items. Potions are made between levels 3-5, with a profit/day of between 35 gold/day and 300-400 gp/day. No xp cost. If you don't feel like dying, do that. If you feel like being rich as -durn, no swearing on the boards- heck, go out and have some experiences to hone your talent.

Talic
2008-03-30, 01:08 AM
Long as he keeps it reasonable, he can balance his xp costs with roleplay xp...

YES! I worked roleplaying into optimization!

On a side note, I recall that D&D generally values 1xp at 5gp, but what I don't recall is a method by which to facilitate that transfer.

FlyMolo
2008-03-30, 01:17 AM
On a side note, I recall that D&D generally values 1xp at 5gp, but what I don't recall is a method by which to facilitate that transfer.

No idea, but it seems pretty ubiquitous. I think you can spend the two interchangeably.

Talic
2008-03-30, 01:27 AM
No, the craft rules dictate 1/2 base cost in gold, 1/25th base cost in xp. Without some sort of text allowing variations, that's how it's gotta be, by RAW.

Arbitrarity
2008-03-30, 02:00 AM
Grab another caster to help you make the item, have him pay the XP, and pay him for it?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-30, 02:04 AM
Buy a Dimunitive Keen Greatsword of Wounding that someone's DM made just to be a ****, then get an Artificer to collaborate. You should be able to buy it for almost nothing.

Torger
2008-03-30, 10:16 AM
That seems a little bit harsh to me.

I mean, think about motivations for becoming a wizard:
"I like studying magic because I want to understand the secrets of the universe!"
"I want power over life and death!"
"I want to be able to create illusions so convincing that I can wrap myself in mysteries and disappear!"
"I want to rule the world! BWA-HA-HAA!"
Those are all 'valid' motivations, right? We can easily imagine wizards studying and training and practicing to attain those goals.

So why is
"I want to be rich, richer than Croesus, but all I have to work with is my brains because I'm not in line to inherit a fortune."
not a reasonable motivation?

In a roleplaying game? Your motivation is to sit in a tower, make pretend items, and sell them for pretend money...

Besides which, 3rd edition has magic items far, far too common, with no thoughts on its effects on a "High Middle Ages" setting. If Wizards are as common as old shoes and churning out potions by the vat and vorpal swords by the cartload, why does the town need adventurers? "Dire rat probelm in your basement? Here, buy this potion of heroism and rent this +6 Sword of Vorpal Veg-O-Matic for the day."

Magic is supposed to be like tactical assault weapons. People have heard of it, but your neighbor's house isn't full of them. If you try really, really hard, you might be able to find someone to sell you some, or you could join some large-scale institution that has access to an arsenal, or, hell, make your own, if you have the time and money.

The concept of the magic shop should really attract more government attention, as it's a source of power that's not being controlled in a feudal society, that's distributing the tools of dissent amongst the general population. Peasants with sticks, not much of a threat. Peasants with armour of fortification and magicval weapons? Big threat.



As a physics major, I can confidently expect to be a "graduate student" into my mid to late 20s. What's the big deal?

The big deal is you're applying modern sensibilities to a Medieval setting. PEople didn't live at home and do nothing until their 20s. You were apprenticed and working form the age of 14 at the latest. You would have started your "Undergrad" at 14, and worked on it more or less 'round the clock all year until you were ready to strike out on your own. According to the fluff, You're somewhere between 17 and 27 to start out as a first level wizard. First-level. No 6th level spells, you get a magic missile and a mage armour a day. And that's right out of the PHB. (page 109, table 6-4, for those interested.)

Jack_Simth
2008-03-30, 12:05 PM
No idea, but it seems pretty ubiquitous. I think you can spend the two interchangeably.
It's under hiring spellcasting services, it's under the costs for single-shot and finite charged magic items, and it's (effectively) under the nonmagical item value limit of Wish. XP costs over and above the "base" for the item/service are 5 gp per XP - hiring someone to cast Limited Wish costs the amount to hire him for a 7th level spell, plus 5 gp per XP - so that 300 xp adds 1500 gp to the cost of hiring the spell. The extra 5,000 xp required to make a scroll of Wish adds 25,000 gp to the value of the scroll above and beyond other 9th level spell scrolls, such as Meteor Swarm, and so on.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-30, 12:11 PM
Arguably, the DMG custom magic item creation guidelines let you make any spell permanent. You just do unlimited/day and it's considered persistent. So you make an item, activate it, and bury it under the cell.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-30, 04:21 PM
The best prison for anyone in D&D is Smokey Confinement. Since the person is held in stasis they can't even attempt to escape. You can keep them imprisoned forever, in a 10x10x10 room you could cram several thousand prisoners.

Or instead of imprisoning those high level casters you Mind Rape them to completely rebuild them so that they are good citizens.

Renegade Paladin
2008-03-30, 04:34 PM
I'm fairly certain there's rules for it in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. I don't have my copy here at my house, though, so I can't check.

avr
2008-03-30, 06:57 PM
Aren't there natural dead magic zones in some campaign worlds? FR, for one? Just build walls about one and you have an anti-magic prison cell.

Dervag
2008-03-30, 09:01 PM
The concept of the magic shop should really attract more government attention, as it's a source of power that's not being controlled in a feudal society, that's distributing the tools of dissent amongst the general population. Peasants with sticks, not much of a threat. Peasants with armour of fortification and magicval weapons? Big threat.Yeah, I know.

What I'm saying is that merchant "traders in oddities" will probably exist in the campaign unless magic items are so rare that the party has effectively no access to them. And by "oddities" I mean minor magic items. Potions of healing will be for sale, though the seller's inventory is limited- you can't just order up a dozen of them. Rings of protection +1 may well be for sale.

Vorpal swords +6, heck no. At that point, the item is powerful enough to attract the attention of people more powerful than any shopkeeper can plausibly be. You'd have to be the next best thing to a god to be able to safely trade in magic items powerful enough to be interesting to 15th level characters. The social contract can't protect you against that kind of power disparity unless you live in some kind of massive planar metropolis in which godlike beings are walking around on the streets all the time.

Even if you have an equally powerful patron, the patron is smart enough to realize that keeping awesome items of power in a shop is dangerous. So he'll ensure that your 'shop' operates directly under his eye, and that you trade only with approved customers.

Which is why I explicitly said that I don't think you should be able to get made-to-order magic items from a shop. There will be shops. If you want to buy a potion or a scroll you will likely be able to find one. But there's a very real chance they won't have what you want specifically, and if you want something exotic or powerful enough that the local government is interested in it then you're almost certainly out of luck.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-30, 09:31 PM
I posted it somewhere else, and I'm posting it here. I've never seen it as a shop. I've always seen it as a half-dozen weird old magewrights shops, 2 wizard's towers on the outside of town, and the temples to every god under the sun. If you are looking for something, you visit all of them, and see what you come up with.

Funkyodor
2008-03-31, 07:42 AM
I think this is what Epic Skill DC's are for. Need some Anti-Magic aura mortar for your prison? Just a quick DC 50'ish Alchemy check from any Salvador Dali status wandering super-crafting Wizard and "Poof", you got yourself a sweet Anti Magic prison. Mix lead in the walls and *presto* you got yourself a Scry/Clairvoyance proof place too. Can't teleport if you don't know what the inside looks like. Even Discern Location only tells you where a prisoner is, not what his surroundings look like. Finding out about how to free someone, then planning and succeeding sounds more like an adventure and less like an encounter.

Gensuru
2008-03-31, 08:12 AM
On the prison thingy: Magic can more or less reproduce just about any natural ability given enough research right? I mean there are shapeshifting creatures and there are spells that copy that ability for example. Now the central eye of a beholder generates an anti-magic field right? That is why you donīt want them to look at you with their central eye after all. So either get some beholder-eyes and take care that they remain functional or copy them. What you get is an anti-magic-field projector that affects everything within itīs range (i do not have the proper word in my head right now...itīs shaped like this: < right?)Now put them in the 4 corners of a room and technicaly they should affect the entire room by covering each others blind spots.

Other than that one would have to ask if there is some type of material that you can work into walls in order to simply block the magic field out. I mean honestly there are several ways to imprison a spellcaster. Feeblemind has been mentioned already. Sleep or Stasis as well. Be creative and you will find enough ways to make a believable prison for mages. A basic questions is: do you want to affect the prisoner directly or do you want to install your trick into the building? With chains that simply prohibit the use of magic no spellcaster will be harmful as long as he wears them. With cells that block out magic the area keeps the mage from doing anything. In order to save money and time you might as well put them all into stasis. There was this nice spell in Baldurs gate 2 where you imrpison someone in the very planet you are standing on. Only another high level spell cast on the same area the target was standing on would reverse it. Do that inside of a fortress and guard the spots and no one will be likely to free them from there.

Khanderas
2008-03-31, 08:33 AM
Wouldn't Baleful Polymorph be an option as well? While none of the optons are exactly ethical, you could give them the option of becoming a Wizard's familiar after using BP on them so that they don't fall victim to D&Ds rules concerning animal intelligence (unless they really couldn't be trusted).
Salem Saberhagen (Sabrina the teenage witch) ?

throtecutter
2008-03-31, 12:57 PM
This is a use for 2 levels of Arcane Archer. (That sounds really wierd)
Imbue arrow would let you target the center of the cell or the prisoner with an antimagic field. There are probably more useful things for a 13th level person to do though.

Mewtarthio
2008-03-31, 01:22 PM
Wouldn't Baleful Polymorph be an option as well? While none of the optons are exactly ethical, you could give them the option of becoming a Wizard's familiar after using BP on them so that they don't fall victim to D&Ds rules concerning animal intelligence (unless they really couldn't be trusted).

The downside is that baleful polymorph can be dispelled. Also, the rules don't technically say that you get to pick which animal becomes your familiar. It's possible that the familiar simply appears once you complete The Ritual.

Still, that'd be a great houserule for a particular setting. Have someone who's been baleful polymorphed and has failed the Will save to retain intelligence be "locked" in that form if they become a familiar. You could have a man dying of old age baleful poymorph himself, intentionally forgo the Will save, and then become the familiar of his grandson so as to prolong his own life and protect his legacy.


Other than that one would have to ask if there is some type of material that you can work into walls in order to simply block the magic field out. I mean honestly there are several ways to imprison a spellcaster. Feeblemind has been mentioned already. Sleep or Stasis as well. Be creative and you will find enough ways to make a believable prison for mages. A basic questions is: do you want to affect the prisoner directly or do you want to install your trick into the building? With chains that simply prohibit the use of magic no spellcaster will be harmful as long as he wears them. With cells that block out magic the area keeps the mage from doing anything. In order to save money and time you might as well put them all into stasis. There was this nice spell in Baldurs gate 2 where you imrpison someone in the very planet you are standing on. Only another high level spell cast on the same area the target was standing on would reverse it. Do that inside of a fortress and guard the spots and no one will be likely to free them from there.

You can also throw in psionics for some more possibilities:

> Encase the prisoners within Quintessence. The rules don't say how much you need to fully cover a human, unfortunately, but they strongly imply that it can be done. Bonus points if the prison is actually built on some sort of "pool" of Quintessence, so that you can see the prisoners floating around below you, trapped forever in stasis.

> Lock them in a microcosm. Yeah, it's a ninth-level power, but it's worth it. Basically, microcosm traps them within their own mind, in a world of their own imagination. I'm picturing that prison scene in Minority Report (the movie, not the short story).

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-31, 01:34 PM
You can also throw in psionics for some more possibilities:

> Encase the prisoners within Quintessence. The rules don't say how much you need to fully cover a human, unfortunately, but they strongly imply that it can be done. Bonus points if the prison is actually built on some sort of "pool" of Quintessence, so that you can see the prisoners floating around below you, trapped forever in stasis.
Smokey Confinement is cheaper, easier, and safer.


> Lock them in a microcosm. Yeah, it's a ninth-level power, but it's worth it. Basically, microcosm traps them within their own mind, in a world of their own imagination. I'm picturing that prison scene in Minority Report (the movie, not the short story).

If were using 9th level spells/powers then just Mind Rape them to make them good little drones for your government. Make that high level wizard work for you instead of letting his talents go to waste in prison.