D&D Magic, Spell Resistance, and Saving Throws

[KoDT69]

OK so we all know D&D magic is broken, but here is what I think makes the worst offenses. First thing that makes no sense is Spell Resistance. Why is it that so many spells don't allow spell resistance? Really, if a Wizard is fighting a Red Dragon who is immune to fire (thanks for the tip Gimble!) and has SR 40 (for the sake of arguement) and he can only make a 35 on the caster level check, he should not be able to beat the Spell Resistance. So what does he do? He uses his 85 spells that just ignore Spell Resistance!?! WTF! Why does SR even exist? Because in all reality you can do everything you want with magic, including just researching a spell that ignores SR, making it a non-issue. I also dislike Assay Spell Resistance for this reason. It's like trying to but the red dragon with a torch, and when it doesn't flinch, you cast Fireball. Fire is still fire, magic is still magic. He still won't take fire damage. There should not be a way to just ignore a resistance or immunity like that. Being able to ignore it is the same thing as it not existing. :smallmad:

Next issue... Saving Throws. :smalleek: As the same concept described above, why do some spells that DIRECTLY AFFECT the PC not allow a save? You get a save vs. Domination but not against Ray of Enfeeblement? Why? I don't see any justifiable reason for a spell to ignore SR or not allow a save of some sort. I don't care if it takes a "ranged touch attack roll which is one of the easiest rolls to make" to hit the target, they can still shrug off a charm or be positioned to not take the full effect. If you were to make a Ray of Fire doing 6d6 and you make a ranged attack and hit a fully plated Fighter, he could still be hit on the shield causing the fire to splatter doing half damage instead. Isn't that the classic Knight vs. Red Dragon concept? Shielding the party from the fire breath with his shield? Yes the breath weapon allows a Reflex Save to dodge the blast for half damage, but that isn't exactly the same.

Next-to-last gripe... Orb Spells. :smallconfused: OK I admit blasting is so much weaker than other options, especially the Orb Spells due to the d6/2 caster levels opposed to the 1/1 ratio of a regular evocation blasty spell, but the whole issue is that they have this contrived argument that it ignores SR because it "conjures up nonmagical versions of the elements". OK I can agree that you can ignore SR with non-magical fire. The problem is that non-magic fire or whatever would only do 1d6, just 1d6 and not scale with your level. A campfire and a house fire would both do 1d6, so why does the non-magic fire of this little orb do so much more?

Finally, that age-old way of thinking that Magic should be able to do everything possible without any real cost or drawback. :smallfurious: A Batman Wizard can do anything better than anyone else, and that is complete and utter crap. A spell should not be able to replace entire classes of characters. And don't get me started on Wish. No mortal should be able to cast Wish. Period. At least when a Cleric casts Miracle, it comes from a divine source, not a dusty old book.

No I'm not a noob, I've been playing 15 years. I don't have any interest in other systems either. I play with a lot of houserules that address these and other issues. Hombrewing is easy when you understand how your play style and the game world will interact. All those other systems that people preach about have just as many things about them that I dislike so no sense in changing.

[Mr. Friendly]

Well if you've been playing for 15 years, then you know most of your problems didn't exist prior to 3rd Edition.

Things were just "immune to X" and that was that. SR was much more of a pain.

Meh - the whole bloody things a mess.

[droyer]

First of all, Ray of Enfeeblement is stopped by spell resistance. Second of all, there are so many spells that avoid spell resistance because if there wasn't pure casters would be useless in battles against monsters with high spell resistance. The orb of fire probably does more than 1 d6 because if it didn't it would be completely useless. I mean, one d6 isn't so much in the long run.

[Kurald Galain]

Why is it that so many spells don't allow spell resistance?
Generally, because those spells create something that is not magical. If you hit a dragon with a sword, he gets no SR; likewise, if you magically create a non-magical sword over the dragon's head and it hits him, he gets no SR. Yes, WOTC actually thought about this, and it makes sense from a design point of view.


why do some spells that DIRECTLY AFFECT the PC not allow a save?
Generally, because these are spells that require an attack roll. There are very few spells that require two rolls to work (i.e. both an attack roll and a saving throw) because (1) that'd make the chance of success quadratically smaller, and (2) it slows down combat because you have to make twice as many rolls now. Yes, WOTC actually thought about this too, and it does make sense from a design point of view.

Of course, "making sense" is not the same as "being balanced".



Finally, that age-old way of thinking that Magic should be able to do everything possible without any real cost or drawback.
That's not an age-old way of thinking. In mythology, power generally comes with a cost. In first and second edition D&D, magic was rife with drawbacks, hazards, costs and disadvantages. WOTC has made a point of explicitly eliminating nearly every one of those. This is part of their design philosophy that it's not "fun" for players if their characters ever get seriously hindered or hurt (the most obvious example is that the rust effect from a 3.5E rust monster wears off in ten minutes).

Again, this is something WOTC thought about and based their design decisions on. You should give them a little more credit than that - sure, they make mistakes, and suffer from tunnel vision at times, and sure, 3.5 is as unbalanced as a teeter-totter, but they do think about what they're doing.


I don't have any interest in other systems either.
That's just odd. If a system bothers you so much, you should look into alternatives. There's plenty of them.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Finally, that age-old way of thinking that Magic should be able to do everything possible without any real cost or drawback. :smallfurious: A Batman Wizard can do anything better than anyone else, and that is complete and utter crap. A spell should not be able to replace entire classes of characters. And don't get me started on Wish. No mortal should be able to cast Wish. Period. At least when a Cleric casts Miracle, it comes from a divine source, not a dusty old book.

Er ... doing anything without any real cost or drawback? Does a drawback to the tune of 5000 XP sound 'unreal' to you?

[Crowheart]

I have to mirror the frustration of the OP here.

The idea of a character doing something to another character without any way to resist it has never ever sat well with me.

Spells like Maze and Otto's Irresistible Dance are the worst high level offenders by far.

I absolutely despise non-resistible game abilities. They can be so cheaply abusive. :smallannoyed:

[Darrin]

I *hate* SR and Saves. Why do you have two different mechanics for the same thing?

That being said... it all boils down to game balance, and to a somewhat lesser extent, backwards compatibility.

SR was introduced in 1st Ed to give more powerful monsters a blanket immunity to spells in general. In the original 1st Ed, saving throws were much more bizarre, and covered mostly special-case conditions such as paralysis, death effects, breath weapons, etc. I think "spells" got their own save, but back then the default for most spells was "no save". It's flipped a bit since then, now the default is "you get a save, unless it's a ray/touch attack".

It's interesting to see back then that mages at higher levels still pwn everything. SR was introduced most likely to keep them in check, and to a lesser extent make the non-spellcasting classes a tad more effective at higher levels.

As for Saving Throws, mechanically they're about establishing narrative control. It all boils down to "cops and robbers", the mage says "Bang! You're dead!" and the goblin says "No I'm not". Casting a spell is a very powerful ability that allows a spellcaster to dictate what is going on in the game world. He casts a spell, and Bang, it happens the way he says it does. Most other RPGs require a spellcaster to make a skill check, expend spell points, or do something to "earn" this amount of control over what happens. D&D doesn't do this, in most cases the mage gets to cast his spell without requiring him to make a check. When the mage wants to affect another player or NPC, however, you have a narrative conflict if the target doesn't want the spell to take effect. The saving throw is a mechanic that dictates which party gets to claim if the spell succeeded or not.

If a target has supremely good saves, or really high SR, then from a game balance standpoint, the mage is screwed and has no tactical option with any chance of success. That's the reason for rays, touch attacks, and orb spells. The attack roll in this case is the mechanical equivalent of a Saving Throw. If you don't want the spell to take effect, then don't get hit!

If an ability renders a creature immune to a particular type of attack, then for game balance reasons there should be a tactical option that counters that ability. Mechanically, though, it's a bit of a mess... why not give creatures with innate magic resistance higher saves, a bonus against all spell saves, or something similar to an evasion ability?

4E is attempting to fix this, I think, by making saves static DCs, which essentially turns casting a spell into a skill check for the spellcaster. I have no idea if they are getting rid of SR, however.

[Mr. Friendly]

..... (the most obvious example is that the rust effect from a 3.5E rust monster wears off in ten minutes).

Where in the name of all that is holy are you getting that from? *reads book* *reads SRD*

I see "destroyed" not "destroyed and regenerates in 10 minutes".

[Ulzgoroth]

I'm not going to say there aren't abusive, non-resistible spells. But both Maze and Irresistible Dance allow SR, and Irresistible Dance also requires a melee touch attack. Maze gives a sort-of-save every turn to get out. And both are high-level spells besides.

Of course, it is nearly impossible for some types of characters to have good SR, but it is there.

If you want nasty, why not go to Solid Fog, which can't be resisted at all, by anything?

[Kurald Galain]

I *hate* SR and Saves. Why do you have two different mechanics for the same thing?
Yes, it is clunky.


Most other RPGs require a spellcaster to make a skill check, expend spell points, or do something to "earn" this amount of control over what happens. D&D doesn't do this,
Yes it does - expending a "spell slot" is fundamentally the same idea as expending "spell points".



If a target has supremely good saves, or really high SR, then from a game balance standpoint, the mage is screwed and has no tactical option with any chance of success.
That is incorrect - the mage still has buff spells, defense spells, illusions and battlefield control at his disposal.



4E is attempting to fix this, I think, by making saves static DCs, which essentially turns casting a spell into a skill check for the spellcaster.
Yes, but they are also introducing a large number of attacks that do "something" even when they miss, which is essentially the "unavoidable effect" you're talking about. Plus, it has fire resistance which "wears off" if you get hit by enough fire.

[Tola]

I see "destroyed" not "destroyed and regenerates in 10 minutes".

He SAID 3.5.

He MEANT 4th.

And as far as I can tell, the change was made to stop the issue that comes when melee-fighters(who are massively equipment-dependant) are rendered worse-than-useless by the total destruction of their hard-earned equip.

[Khanderas]

I see "destroyed" not "destroyed and regenerates in 10 minutes".

He SAID 3.5.

He MEANT 4th.

And as far as I can tell, the change was made to stop the issue that comes when melee-fighters(who are massively equipment-dependant) are rendered worse-than-useless by the total destruction of their hard-earned equip.
So can we expect to see "the temple of infinite lives" in ed 5 ?
:smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

I
If you want nasty, why not go to Solid Fog, which can't be resisted at all, by anything?

No, if you want really nasty, go with Freezing Fog. Its Solid Fog(no save, no SR) PLUS a free Heightened Grease (save, but no SR) PLUS continuous cold damage (no save, no SR). So, even if you don't fall on your butt, you can't move very quickly and suffer MORE chances to fall on your butt, all the while you are taking a little bit of cold damage that adds up by the time you get out. This spell can 1shot a greater stone golem baring a string of nat 20s. It'll eventually die from the piddly cold damage before it has a chance to get out.

[Kurald Galain]

He SAID 3.5.
And I also meant 3.5; there was an article about "new and updated" monster design for 3.5 (which came after the actual 3.5 MM) which noted that it was a big improvement when destruction of items wore off after ten minutes. There's probably a flame war about that somewhere in the message board archives.



And as far as I can tell, the change was made to stop the issue that comes when melee-fighters(who are massively equipment-dependant) are rendered worse-than-useless by the total destruction of their hard-earned equip.
Well duh, obviously. But it's the example that counts. The point of the design philosophy is that it should be completely impossible for any player character to be inconvenienced for more than a couple of rounds. Because, you know, that wouldn't be fun.

Your stuff got stolen? Your DM shall now give you new treasure to adhere to WBL. Got a nasty status ailment? No problem, there's this stance/maneuver thingy that lets you remove one per round. Your character breaks his arm? Don't worry, it'll heal overnight. Even character death is about as meaningful as it is in Dragonball Z.

[Saph]

Spell resistance is an extremely powerful ability that can completely neuter casters who aren't prepared for it. I've been GMing a game from 3rd to 10th level, and for the latter part of the campaign the PCs were mostly fighting demons and devils. As a result, the party Psion Kineticist absolutely sucked offensively - between SR, energy resistance, and saves, she was lucky to do a quarter of the damage the Psychic Warrior was doing.

Assay Spell Resistance is a good partial solution, but it's not a universal solution. First, it's not core. Second, it only affects one monster. How many copies of it are you going to prepare per day? Each spell slot you spend on it is one spell slot that'll be wasted against a monster without SR.

There are also No-SR spells, but there are much fewer of them than there are SR-Yes spells. Try filling a spell list with only No-SR spells from Core - you aren't going to be left with much variety.

To be able to reliably deal with high-SR monsters on a consistent basis you need reliable access to SR-removing spells, along with no-SR spells as a backup, and preferably a bit of prep time as well. It can be done, but it's not trivial.

- Saph

[Frosty]

Generally, because these are spells that require an attack roll. There are very few spells that require two rolls to work (i.e. both an attack roll and a saving throw) because (1) that'd make the chance of success quadratically smaller, and (2) it slows down combat because you have to make twice as many rolls now. Yes, WOTC actually thought about this too, and it does make sense from a design point of view.

Overwhelm. Requires a touch attack, allows a Will save to Negate, and allows Spell Resistance. Crappiest spell ever.

[Keld Denar]

Overwhelm. Requires a touch attack, allows a Will save to Negate, and allows Spell Resistance. Crappiest spell ever.

Shouldn't they have called it Underwhelm then?

Oh, and on top of 3 ways to negate it, it is also completely ineffectual on undead, constructs, plants, animated objects, and everything else immune to non-lethal damage.

[KoDT69]

Yes I specifically preferred the older versions magic with drawbacks. I don't think that ultimate power should be without even a chance of some cost. 5,000xp for Wish is not enough of a drawback. Due to how XP is calculated in 3.5, the Wizard player can tactically cast it to gain more XP in certain cases to where they always end up caught up to the rest of the party anyway. Even if he stays a level behind the Fighter and the Rogue, does it matter? In 2nd edition the Fighter would have been 18th level, the Rogue well over 20th, and at the same time the Wizard would have just made 14th and gotten 7th level spells. That was a better balancing factor than most of what exists now. They had to change the XP tables to be the same so younger players wouldn't get confused. Fine, make that change, but scale back the casters accordingly.

I also understand that WotC did have a thought process for each of the things I hate, but they think there should be a counter to everything that's also readily available to the casters in particular. It shouldn't be that easy. It's not a challenge if a spell exists for EVERY problem. I don't care if you have to roll to hit with a spell, the target could still resist the magic. Like I said, charm spells get a save, a bunch of others don't. Yes I agree with the no save or SR against non-magic stuff, but making a sword appear in the air to fall on the target will do like 1d8 and that's it. Not useful no, but no save against a full level-scaled spell is not fair either.

[valadil]

Spell Resistance and Saving Throws are lame. I almost always play a caster. It just pisses me off when my enemies don't burn when I tell them to.

Seriously though, 3.5 gives 3 ways that spells can fail (I guess there are concentration checks too, but those don't depend on which spell you use). Ranged touch, SR, and saves. Playing a caster well means figuring out which of those you're going to use to hit your enemy. Unless you've memorized the MM you don't actually know that that dragon has unbeatable SR. You have to spend a couple turns throwing spells at him first before realizing that spells with SR are a bad idea.

Even then, your non SR spells are typically weaker than their SR counterparts. Ever wonder why Disintegrate did so much more damage than other spells? Because it takes all three checks to get it to hit. It's not like you can just switch it out for the disintegrate that bypasses SR.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Assay Spell Resistance is a good partial solution, but it's not a universal solution. First, it's not core. Second, it only affects one monster. How many copies of it are you going to prepare per day? Each spell slot you spend on it is one spell slot that'll be wasted against a monster without SR.

Is Assay Resistance Divination? Yes. Does Spontaneous Divination allow you to turn any 4th or higher slot into Assay Resistance spontaneously meaning that you always have exactly as many as you need and no more? Yes. Does the Limburger taster delicious? Yes.

Just thought I'd mention that, but excellent summarization of the effects of SR on the game. I think the magic system is surprisingly balanced. Certainly spellcasters are better then not. But Spellcasters versus monsters is pretty fair in most respects.

[Frosty]

Shouldn't they have called it Underwhelm then?

Oh, and on top of 3 ways to negate it, it is also completely ineffectual on undead, constructs, plants, animated objects, and everything else immune to non-lethal damage.

I think I will start calling it Underwhelm, in fact. It is the stupidzors compared to things like Slay Living, a level 4 spell.

valadil: A properly metamagic'ed Orb can probably close in on Disintegrate's damage, and is much more reliable.

[Kurald Galain]

Overwhelm. Requires a touch attack, allows a Will save to Negate, and allows Spell Resistance. Crappiest spell ever.

Hold Portal :smallbiggrin:

[valadil]

valadil: A properly metamagic'ed Orb can probably close in on Disintegrate's damage, and is much more reliable.

Does proper mean an arcane thesised orb? Because there is nothing proper about that feat. Otherwise we're talking about empowering it. That seems like a fair comparison since an empowered orb is the same level as disintegrate. An empowered orb maxes out at 22d6 (or 15d6 if its force) and disintegrate at 40d6. I'll still take the orb for reliability, but the damage is way less than disintegrate's.

[Starbuck_II]

Spell resistance is an extremely powerful ability that can completely neuter casters who aren't prepared for it. I've been GMing a game from 3rd to 10th level, and for the latter part of the campaign the PCs were mostly fighting demons and devils. As a result, the party Psion Kineticist absolutely sucked offensively - between SR, energy resistance, and saves, she was lucky to do a quarter of the damage the Psychic Warrior was doing.

Crystal Shard/swarm is for SR resistance dudes. I'm surprised the Psion forgot (not like Intellect is his dump stat).



There are also No-SR spells, but there are much fewer of them than there are SR-Yes spells. Try filling a spell list with only No-SR spells from Core - you aren't going to be left with much variety.

To be able to reliably deal with high-SR monsters on a consistent basis you need reliable access to SR-removing spells, along with no-SR spells as a backup, and preferably a bit of prep time as well. It can be done, but it's not trivial.

- Saph
This is why SR-No spells are universally good. Grease, glitterdust, Solid Fog, Freezing Fog, Acid Arrow, etc.



Overwhelm. Requires a touch attack, allows a Will save to Negate, and allows Spell Resistance. Crappiest spell ever.

Hah. You think that sucks?
Ice Knife: SR yes, but Conjuration creation (disowned by its own school).
Ranged Attack (no, not a touch attack). You get +2 attack bonus per 2 caster levels (why not just 1 per caster?)
Save partial: 2d8 Cold +2 dex damage on failed save.
If you miss, you have to roll scatter die to see where it lands (friendly fire). It than explodes dealing 1d8 cold, Ref 1/2.

I mean, a ranged attack!? How often will a caster even hit normal AC?

[Frosty]

Disintegrate allows a save, so it's either insta death or not enough damage. And those with low fort saves probably have low HP so an Orb will be enough anyways.

I love orbs. Especially when combined with Metamagic School Focus, Incantatrix, Easy Metamagic, etc. With Disintegrate you need to focus on boosting DC, which is much more difficult.

[Saph]

Crystal Shard/swarm is for SR resistance dudes. I'm surprised the Psion forgot (not like Intellect is his dump stat).

Oh, she had a Crystal Shard dorje, but a 50/50 chance of doing 3d6 damage isn't going to scare a medium-CR demon or devil. Besides, by the time she'd discovered what worked the battle would be half over anyway.


This is why SR-No spells are universally good. Grease, glitterdust, Solid Fog, Freezing Fog, Acid Arrow, etc.

Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're not. I like them (with the exception of Acid Arrow, that's pretty mediocre), but I've been in plenty of situations where they haven't been what was needed.

- Saph

[Mojo_Rat]

The problem Seems to be is that We have a mixture of concepts held over from lder Systems and New spell concepts being added to get around existing defenses.

SR Is really more of an AC for spells than it is an Alternative saving throw. But it is admitedly a problem mechanic Basically spells work with needing either a save or a to hit roll.

The Orb spells are really Mechanically flawed in alot of ways though and do not make much sense.

[ColdBrew]

The problem Seems to be is that We have a mixture of concepts held over from lder Systems and New spell concepts being added to get around existing defenses.

SR Is really more of an AC for spells than it is an Alternative saving throw. But it is admitedly a problem mechanic Basically spells work with needing either a save or a to hit roll.

The Orb spells are really Mechanically flawed in alot of ways though and do not make much sense.

Capital letters are a privilege, not a right.

[Chronos]

In 2nd edition the Fighter would have been 18th level, the Rogue well over 20th, and at the same time the Wizard would have just made 14th and gotten 7th level spells. That was a better balancing factor than most of what exists now. They had to change the XP tables to be the same so younger players wouldn't get confused. Fine, make that change, but scale back the casters accordingly.Actually, the reason they changed the classes to all have the same XP table is to enable a sane system of multiclassing. It's still not perfect, but it's now possible to build a multiclass character without having nightmares trying to figure out its HP or thac0. They could have maintained balance by changing the rate at which spellcasters got spells, but they instead chose to try to bring everyone up to the same power-per-level as the wizard. At first glance, it looked like wizards didn't gain much going from 2nd edition to 3rd, while fighters (for instance) gained all those feats, so they thought it was balanced. Of course, they were wrong.

[Burley]

This is the beautiful thing about D&D, it's spell selection and it's previous editions: If you don't like it, pick something else!
There are tons of spells out there. Some of them do what you want, and some don't. Some of them are really hard to make them do what you want, and it may or may not be worth your risk. But, lo and behold, there'll be another one along shortly that'll do what you want.

Why can Spell Resistance be ignored by certain things? To give wizards and sorcerers some use in later levels. Arcane casters are really powerful, yeah. But, throw them up against a Cleric of equal level with Spell Resistance cast? Forget that, man. Your wizard's Dissintigrate doesn't work anymore. Oh no. Wait, I prepared an Orb spell on a whim. ~Blip Woosh~ d6's all over the place! Hurray! You were almost not dead!
There is only a small percentage of spells that ignore SR. Don't like 'em? Don't use 'em.
And...I have to say, OP. There were some spots in your rant that make now sense. SR is Spell Resistance, not spell immunity. Your whole "fire=fire, magic=magic" is tilted away from the difference between resistance and immunity.

I'm gonna the next part of your rant, because I'm not even gonna touch what is NOT wrong with Saving Throws.

Spells are written to balance against other spells of their level, not other spells of the game. Saying "spell X sucks because you have to do stipulation Y or it isn't good" isn't fair to that spell. If that spell is successful, it usually smacks other spells of it's level in the face and tells them to bring it tea.
Also, comparing spells of different levels is like comparing spells from different books. They're made for the same game, but with different thoughts in mind. Books are written by different people. Levels are written for different strengthed characters.

Orb spells are good spells. You can imagine that the Orb gets bigger, or that you're conjuring more potent energy from The Plane of More Potent Energy. It's up to you. But, if you don't want Orb spells to scale with caster level, then your Dragon's breath weapon doesn't scale with hit-dice, either. Same concept.

If you don't like Batmans, don't play them. It's my way of thinking, as well as MANY people's, I'm sure, that having every spell in the game at your disposal is too much book keeping. Maybe you just have a huge list printed? Well, you still have to prepare them...every game day.
The great thing about Wish and Miracle: Wish can have side effects, decided by the DM, and Miracle can be flattly refused by the Diety.


If you're using houserules, why do these things matter to you anyways? I used to have problems wrapping around things when I started playing. But, instead of trying to make up new rules that worked for me, I just changed the mental fluff so that I understood it better.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Hah. You think that sucks?
Ice Knife: SR yes, but Conjuration creation (disowned by its own school).
Ranged Attack (no, not a touch attack). You get +2 attack bonus per 2 caster levels (why not just 1 per caster?)
Save partial: 2d8 Cold +2 dex damage on failed save.
If you miss, you have to roll scatter die to see where it lands (friendly fire). It than explodes dealing 1d8 cold, Ref 1/2.

I mean, a ranged attack!? How often will a caster even hit normal AC?

Actually, the way that spell works it would be hard to miss.

Attack role = Dex score + BAB + CL (or CL-1 if odd).

So at level 12 that's 4 + 6 + 12 = 22. That's a pretty high attack role for level 12. Not an instant success, but better then a 3/4ths BAB class.

[KoDT69]

Why can Spell Resistance be ignored by certain things? To give wizards and sorcerers some use in later levels. Arcane casters are really powerful, yeah. But, throw them up against a Cleric of equal level with Spell Resistance cast? Forget that, man. Your wizard's Dissintigrate doesn't work anymore. Oh no. Wait, I prepared an Orb spell on a whim. ~Blip Woosh~ d6's all over the place! Hurray! You were almost not dead!

That is exactly my gripe. The constant pandering to casters. Not every situation should be overcome with a spell. Let's examine the melee classes and see if they get the same treatment...

A monster with a 85AC attacks a group of 10th level characters. The fighter has no way to hit it, so he steps back and examines it for a round, then all of the sudden he can hit it... Oh wait, it doesn't work that way. He can't just change his tactic and still swing the sword, he has to do something else. Why is it so horrible for the caster to do something other than cast spells at a high SR enemy? The SR is there to make them use alternate tactics. Cuthbert forbid he buffs the fighter so he has a chance to grapple the thing.


And...I have to say, OP. There were some spots in your rant that make now sense. SR is Spell Resistance, not spell immunity. Your whole "fire=fire, magic=magic" is tilted away from the difference between resistance and immunity.

Oh yeah, I guess that was a bad example. The point still stands that it's a defense intended to make a challenge but can be bypassed way too easily.


I'm gonna the next part of your rant, because I'm not even gonna touch what is NOT wrong with Saving Throws.

Absolutely agreed.


Orb spells are good spells. You can imagine that the Orb gets bigger, or that you're conjuring more potent energy from The Plane of More Potent Energy. It's up to you. But, if you don't want Orb spells to scale with caster level, then your Dragon's breath weapon doesn't scale with hit-dice, either. Same concept.

Minor nitpick, but the breath weapon is Supernatural, so a Red Dragon's breath is much worse than any house fire. I also never said I disliked the spells because the damage scales, in fact I said that they would be useless that way. Orbs were just the commonly used and accessible in most games example I could use to show the SR-No example. Orbs are weak enough I leave them as-is. 1d6/2 levels is a very poor choice at almost any level, so I let it fly. Blasting is sub-optimal (like I needed to say it).


If you're using houserules, why do these things matter to you anyways?

Because my houserules, like anybody else's, only apply at my table when I am DM. For the sake of game balance and fun, I leave a lot of spells alone. I even let all casters ignore the requirement of knowing Burning Hands, Fireball, or Lightning Bolt type spells. I would assume that conjuring elements and shaping them would be a lot easier to learn than dominating another sentient creature or crafting an illusion of a mythical beast attacking. I use the chart in the DMG that says this level arcane or divine spell can do that many dice to a single target or another number in an area (also choose your own standard shape - blast, cone, bolt, or even ray). I do that because blasting is weak, but you all know how fun it can be to drop 40d6 on the table and laugh as the DM rolls his eyes waiting for the player to count it up. The fact that those blasty spells take up no pages of a spellbook or slots of a Sorcerer's oh so limited selection just makes the players happy. Heck, the Cleric gets better at blasting if he wants to, and so does the Bard and Beguiler, Paladin, Ranger, whatever. So I'm not a stick in the mud DM, I just disagree with certain things like anybody else. I do allow saves for stuff like Ray of Enfeeblement and allow SR too, but the allow them to use one spell and choose which ability score it will target. Since they now have SR and saves, I don't make them roll to hit. It's been a fair and non-argued solution so it's good for my game. Instant incapacitation of a BBEG from a 1st level spell in the first round sucks for the DM (he's there to have fun too and tell an interesting story, when the BBEG is no challenge the story turns suckish).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

A monster with a 85AC attacks a group of 10th level characters.

But there are no monsters at that level with 85 AC. Because the Fighter always deserves a chance to hit it. And given sufficient set up he should be allowed to hit it most of the time. There is nothing fun or cool or balanced about having half you enemies be AC 85 Touch AC 2 Monsters that the Wizard 1 shots and the rest being SR: Infinity Golems that the Wizard is not allowed to use spells on but everyone else gets a turn at.

It's not fun, it's not good game design, it sucks. SR enemies require the use of different spells that don't do as much, and Haste is one of the best SR no spells out there at level 5-9. But Wizards 1) Only have a certain number of spells prepared, so if you send a bunch of buff enemies when they don't have buff spells then they can't do anything. 2) Name a level 5 or higher buff spell that's worth it's slot for Wizards, that isn't a defensive buff. There are none.


Orbs are weak enough I leave them as-is. 1d6/2 levels is a very poor choice at almost any level, so I let it fly.

Do you realize that the actual Orb spells (not the lesser ones) advance based on 1d6 per level? Not per 2 levels.

[Frosty]

Too bad they stop scaling after CL 15 :smallfrown: After that all my damage comes from metamagic.

[Paul H]

Hi

You don't get SR against enhancement bonus of weapons, the same goes for some spells. Some objects have a Hardness value, reducing amage except from certain elenments or special metals

Some spells that need expensive spell components, like Hail of Stone also ignore SR.

Crowheart - do you despise all magic? Would you allow SR against weapons by a Lich with DR 15/Magic & Blugeoning? Be practicably unbeatable. Which is why some spells have no SR, though most do.

There are some good non-magic campaigns out there, where this wouldn't be an issue.

Cheers
Paul H

[FlyMolo]

Saving throws-Not going there. They don't make sense.

But SR is supposed to reflect an inner quality that just makes spells bounce off sometimes. Or something. They resist magic, and it doesn't work as well. Spells that don't allow resistance just make a big lump o' something and throw it at the whatever. You may be magic-resistant, but that big lump o' something still hurts. The rays are magic rays, made of magic stuff. When they hit something that repels magic, sometimes they bounce off. But the Orb spells are basically just an acid-proof glove(element of your choice) and a bit that makes the acid for you throw (ditto). The acid is just acid. It's not magic. Orb spells don't allow SR the same way pits of acid don't allow SR. At least, that's the way I think about it.

Then again, because of the splats, all of the above thoughts are contradicted somewhere. :smallsigh:

[Frosty]

Saving throws-Not going there. They don't make sense.

But SR is supposed to reflect an inner quality that just makes spells bounce off sometimes. Or something. They resist magic, and it doesn't work as well. Spells that don't allow resistance just make a big lump o' something and throw it at the whatever. You may be magic-resistant, but that big lump o' something still hurts. The rays are magic rays, made of magic stuff. When they hit something that repels magic, sometimes they bounce off. But the Orb spells are basically just an acid-proof glove(element of your choice) and a bit that makes the acid for you throw (ditto). The acid is just acid. It's not magic. Orb spells don't allow SR the same way pits of acid don't allow SR. At least, that's the way I think about it.

Then again, because of the splats, all of the above thoughts are contradicted somewhere. :smallsigh:

That worked for all except the Orb of Force. Hi, I'm throwing a ball of force at you...but it's all non-magical!

[EvilElitest]

Plus, it has fire resistance which "wears off" if you get hit by enough fire
eh? This is one of the 4E changes i rather liked, i feels more like your protection is wearing off as you are more exposed to the element
from
EE

[FlyMolo]

That worked for all except the Orb of Force. Hi, I'm throwing a ball of force at you...but it's all non-magical!

*waves his hand of refluffing+5* It's not a ball of force, it's a rock!

Yes, I just used the Straw DM fallacy. :smallredface: *Goes to his room*

[Starbuck_II]

Actually, the way that spell works it would be hard to miss.

Attack role = Dex score + BAB + CL (or CL-1 if odd).

So at level 12 that's 4 + 6 + 12 = 22. That's a pretty high attack role for level 12. Not an instant success, but better then a 3/4ths BAB class.

Level 12 good AC (what you expect tanks to have the minimum): 33. You need a 11. Which is good. But -4 to hit if in melee with ally.= 15 needed. Than add cover from allies=19.

Ranged attack is just a bad idea.

[Aquillion]

I have to mirror the frustration of the OP here.

The idea of a character doing something to another character without any way to resist it has never ever sat well with me.

Spells like Maze and Otto's Irresistible Dance are the worst high level offenders by far.

I absolutely despise non-resistible game abilities. They can be so cheaply abusive. :smallannoyed:Irresistible Dance is a touch spell, which means you need a touch attack for it to work. (Unless you have a way to extend reach, you also need to get close enough for that touch attack, which can be problematic.) It is also allows spell resistance. And on top of all this it is a "Compulsion [Mind-Affecting]" spell; there are several ways to become strictly immune to mind-affecting compulsions, both for PCs and monsters, and entire commonly-encountered classes of monsters that it will never function on.

Maze allows Spell Resistance and can be escaped in a single round if you can make a decent intelligence check. Considering that it is a 8th-level spell, it isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.