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View Full Version : My First ToB Build, please critique!



KillianHawkeye
2008-03-28, 10:02 PM
I am introducing this NPC (future BBEG) into my campaign soon and decided on making him a Warblade, but I'd like some critiques/suggestions about my feat & maneuver selections since I've never made a ToB character before now. So, without further ado....

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LE Human Warblade 15

Stats (after items): Str 20, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 16
HP: 210 (bosses in my game get max HP)
AC: 38 (+5 Mithral Full Plate, +5 Animated Shield, Amulet of NA +5)

Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, Leadership, EWP (elven courtblade), Defensive Sweep, Robilar's Gambit, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

Stances: Blood in the Water, Hearing the Air, Punishing Stance

Maneuvers: Adamantine Hurricane, Avalanche of Blades, Finishing Move, Flanking Maneuver, Fountain of Blood, Iron Heart Surge, Lion's Roar, Manticore Parry, Order Forged From Chaos, Rapid Counter, and Sudden Leap
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As you can see, the maneuvers are mostly Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, with a few Tiger Claw and White Raven tossed in. This character is essentially going for the "elegant swordmaster" archetype, capable of facing off against a dozen lesser men, blablabla.

A couple of strategies I've come up with so far are combining Adamantine Hurricane with Blood in the Water and a ton of AoOs and Cleaves (with a keen courtblade), or using Order Forged From Chaos to move a bunch of minions into position for Flanking Maneuver.

So, to all of you ToB experts out there, what did I miss? What did I do wrong? What did I do right? I think maybe the AC is a bit too high now, so I might ditch the shield. Also, I'll probably advance him a couple more levels before the PCs actually get to fight him (since he is currently their employer), but I wanted to get his current stats ready for his introduction. So, any advice on future advancement will also be welcomed!

Thanks in advance!

Reel On, Love
2008-03-28, 10:06 PM
He's either going to go down in a couple of rounds to the mages, or cut through the meleers. You realize that relying on Cleaves and such means you're going to be *killing* PCs? A good BBEG should give them a nice long fight *without* killing them on a regular basis.

You're missing White Raven Hammer, one of the most powerful maneuvers in the book. It's exactly the kind of thing you want: not much added damage, but auto-stun. Dazing Strike is also a good pick.

Ditch Robilar's Gambit, it just makes both sides die faster.

Draz74
2008-03-28, 11:40 PM
Ditch Robilar's Gambit, it just makes both sides die faster.

Unless you pick up Stormguard Warrior. Warblade with Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's is a nasty combo.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-28, 11:48 PM
Unless you pick up Stormguard Warrior. Warblade with Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's is a nasty combo.

Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit + Stormguard Warrior is cheese. Don't do it to your players.

Douglas
2008-03-29, 12:56 AM
Mithral full plate has a max dex to AC of +3, so his AC should be 2 lower.

Is there a reason for the Elven Courtblade? You don't have Weapon Finesse and it wouldn't do anything for you anyway, and it's not significantly better than a falchion without 2 levels in Champion of Correlon Larethian.

Change his amulet to a ring of protection. Same price, same AC boost, but it also applies to touch AC.

Chronicled
2008-03-29, 02:54 AM
He's either going to go down in a couple of rounds to the mages, or cut through the meleers. You realize that relying on Cleaves and such means you're going to be *killing* PCs? A good BBEG should give them a nice long fight *without* killing them on a regular basis.

You're missing White Raven Hammer, one of the most powerful maneuvers in the book. It's exactly the kind of thing you want: not much added damage, but auto-stun. Dazing Strike is also a good pick.

Ditch Robilar's Gambit, it just makes both sides die faster.

QFT. A good ToB BBEG will make heavy use of the defensive powers to keep from dying to the party so quickly. Remember, beating the party with an optimized build doesn't mean that the DM wins. For a BBEG without minions, I'd suggest chosing from these maneuvers/stances:

Diamond Mind

Moment of Perfect Mind (survival)
Action Before Thought (survival)
Mind Over Body (survival)
Disrupting Blow (debuff)
Diamond Defense (survival)
Hearing the Air (if you have people who love to stay invisible) and Quicksilver Motion are also decent choices.


Iron Heart

Disarming Strike (debuff)
Wall of Blades (survival)
Iron Heart Surge (survival)
Exorcism of Steel (debuff)
Dazing Strike (debuff)
Iron Heart Focus (survival)
Iron Heart Endurance (survival)
Manticore Parry (for cool effect)


Tiger Claw and White Raven are less effective for this sort of single boss. Almost all of Tiger Claw is offensively oriented, and White Raven works much better if the BBEG has minions to make better use of it.

With a large number of defenses and debuffs, your BBEG can give the PCs a fight to remember. Have him laugh at the spellcasters as he shrugs off their best spells with Concentration checks (but don't bother using maneuvers against the weaker spells, so that they see he doesn't have plot armor), or spends a moment to nullify their effects with Iron Heart Surge, and have him dart about weakening various party members with debuffing strikes. Heck, give him Mobility and keep him moving, or use Robilar's Gambit combined with Elusive Target to avoid full attacks--he'll be just fine using his standard action to deliver an annoying debuff before moving off. Improved Toughness, and save-boosting feats are good choices. Martial Study (Counter Charge) would be fine too as an anti-charge defense, or Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) for some in-fight healing. Give him a cocky, mocking tone, and have him harass the PCs all throughout the fight until they're seeing red.

Your PCs will remember that fight a lot more than one where the BBEG dropped three of the party members in the first round, before the wizard killed him with a save or die.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-29, 03:50 AM
Mithral full plate has a max dex to AC of +3, so his AC should be 2 lower.

10 + 8 (full plate) + 3 (Dex, mithral) + 5 (enhancement) + 2 (heavy shield) + 5 (enhancement) + 5 (natural) = 38.

I agree about the ring, though.

Robilar's Gambit is for characters with maxed-out AC, which this build doesn't really have.

Douglas
2008-03-29, 03:56 AM
Oops, somehow forgot about the shield's base bonus. :smallredface:

Chronicled
2008-03-29, 05:34 AM
Robilar's Gambit is for characters with maxed-out AC, which this build doesn't really have.

Robilar's Gambit works best with characters who don't care about their AC dropping--either because it's obscenely high or so low as to not notice another -4, or because the character has something providing miss chance (Ring of Blinking, etc). The least likely of these scenarios is the obscenely high AC.

AslanCross
2008-03-29, 07:13 AM
I have to say that this boss is eerily similar to a recurring boss in my campaign, from the chosen disciplines down to the alignment and weapon of choice.

I agree with the previous posters: better be defensive than offensive.

I ran my boss at ECL 11, against a party of five ECL 6 characters. Despite her power, she went down rather quickly, and almost died. (The only thing that kept the flying Wizard from chasing her and scorching her to death was the thunderstorm that was raging over the battlefield). The paladin got lucky with a couple of critical Power Attack+smites that took off a full third of her HP each, while the Wizard blasted her with scorching rays. She fled the battlefield at 5 HP.

That said, I didn't run her very well, and she did get hit with ray of enfeeblement, so I guess a Wizard did it.

Her HP went down like this:
99-6=93 (Rogue's attack: Sneak was ineffectual due to Improved Uncanny Dodge)
93-32=61 (Paladin's initial Smite+Charge+Power Attack+Crit. Crazy luck: the boss was going to bat it away with Wall of Blades, but she rolled really low.)
61-9=52 (Ranger's attack)
---Round 2---
52-25=27 (Paladin's second attack)
27-21=6 (Wizard's scorching rays)




I think it would be more impressive and exciting to run the boss defensively, shrugging off all those debuffs through sheer force of will.

-Cleave and Great Cleave are highly dependent on you actually killing PCs. If you want to see your boss do "lol, omnislash," be prepared to see angry players. Either you brutally TPK everyone in one round, or those two feats see little use, if any.
I suggest you remove them for something less situational and more defensive.

-Robilar's Gambit: Just no.

-Avalanche of Blades: Similar to Cleave/G. Cleave. You're going to want to hit, but it may hit too much and kill the PC. On the other hand, you might just waste the entire full round if it fails. I don't recommend it.

-Adamantine Hurricane: I see no real problems with it, because all those attacks still would not be fatal if only one or two frontliners attacked the boss. I doubt the Wizard would go that close.

Chronicled gave a very good list of maneuvers. I highly recommend Diamond Defense myself.

Eldariel
2008-03-29, 07:29 AM
Get him Martial Study: Shadow Blink at 15th level. I'd also try to fit Sudden Leap in; mobility is always golden. Greater Cleave is never worth it, and Cleave is rarely so too. You'll never drop two characters with one hit, so Greater Cleave is waste of time, and if the PCs have any tactical prowess, you won't be even Cleaving anything.

As others have said, I'd go for White Raven Hammer; you get one level 8 maneuver and ideally, it should be WRH. I'd also pick up Mage Slayer and maybe Standstill or Improved Trip for some added versatility - heck, Martial Study: Devoted Spirit and Thicket of Blades could work, giving him the 'you can't run'-stance. I'd also switch around the stats as thus:
Con 18, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 15

240 HP goes a long way towards a durable fight. Maybe add items too (+4 Con wouldn't be out of question, nor added Strength).


Just make sure he won't fail the first Saving Throw or so; it'd be real anti-climatic to end the fight round 1.

KillianHawkeye
2008-03-29, 07:44 AM
Okay, well first of all, thank you all for the comments! I'd like to address a couple of them really quickly. But first I should mention that I tend to build my NPCs with their place in the world in mind, rather than just for how they will be in a fight vs the PCs. After all, it's not like he knew ahead of time when he began his training as a child that it would all come down to fighting this particular group of adventurers. And secondly, I do occasionally make suboptimal choices when I feel they enhance the character's flavor or if there is some IC reason to do so.

For example, I chose the courtblade because I had in the NPC's backstory that he had learned the arts of elven swordplay, and because it was a nifty two-handed weapon with an 18-20 crit range. Similarly, I realize that Cleave & Great Cleave are not going to be fully utilized against the PC party since I never intended for this to be the sort of battle where a bunch of players get whacked right off the bat. I always saw Cleave as just a bonus, which can come in useful when fighting a large number of weak enemies, and I felt that this strategy fit the character when paired with other 1-on-Many powers such as Adamantine Hurricane strike. I believe a style of fighting stems greatly from the character's personality, so I chose some things to reveal certain aspects of the character, creating an aggressive/ambitious and daring, yet honorable persona.

As for the Ring of Protection, I wanted one, but I decided to give him a Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance (due to the spellcasters in the party all tending to be a bit blasty), and the existing plot already dictated him having a Ring of Mind Shielding (to hide his alignment and protect him from the party's Telepath). Thus, while his AC is pretty high, his touch AC is a weakness the PCs could possibly exploit. That's okay, though, since I'm not trying to make some kind of invincible DMPC. His Will save is also not wonderful, but that's what Iron Heart Surge is for, right? Also, how high does AC have to be to be considered obscene? The PCs probably won't be making it to 20th (I'm guessing more like 16 or 17), so an AC 38 is a pretty hard nut to crack, isn't it?

Maneuver selection is the area where I'm pretty lost, and where I could use the most help. I may have gone a little overboard on offense, but I tried to put in Manticore Parry and Iron Heart Surge and a couple teamwork-oriented moves to round out the selection. It's pretty hard to decide what to take when you can only have 6 maneuvers readied at a time. I will certainly take a closer look at all of the maneuvers that have been mentioned, and I like the idea of throwing in one of the Crusader's healing maneuvers. I'm definitely planning on using minions of some sort, and the Wizard cohort will sure be on hand as well, helping to cover for his boss' weaknesses.

So if anyone has any more suggestions on maneuvers, as I said, that's where I have the least (technically, none) experience. Specifically, which one's should I keep? Which should I ditch? And what to replace them with? Also, if anyone has any ideas for ways to use a Wizard in conjunction with a Warblade, such would be appreciated. (The Wizard is currently a 12th level generalist.)

Thanks again, and sorry if that was too many words. :smallwink:

AslanCross
2008-03-29, 08:53 AM
His Will save is also not wonderful, but that's what Iron Heart Surge is for, right? Also, how high does AC have to be to be considered obscene? The PCs probably won't be making it to 20th (I'm guessing more like 16 or 17), so an AC 38 is a pretty hard nut to crack, isn't it?

Iron Heart Surge will not always work. There's still no errata on it as far as I can tell, but many people rule it to be a mental action so it can actually end hold effects. It's good against stuff like web, but we're not really sure if it works when he's stunned, for example. I'd still prefer to use Diamond Defense, which gives a massive boost to any one saving throw.



Maneuver selection is the area where I'm pretty lost, and where I could use the most help. I may have gone a little overboard on offense, but I tried to put in Manticore Parry and Iron Heart Surge and a couple teamwork-oriented moves to round out the selection. It's pretty hard to decide what to take when you can only have 6 maneuvers readied at a time.

Take the Adaptive Style feat.



I will certainly take a closer look at all of the maneuvers that have been mentioned, and I like the idea of throwing in one of the Crusader's healing maneuvers. I'm definitely planning on using minions of some sort, and the Wizard cohort will sure be on hand as well, helping to cover for his boss' weaknesses.

So if anyone has any more suggestions on maneuvers, as I said, that's where I have the least (technically, none) experience. Specifically, which one's should I keep? Which should I ditch? And what to replace them with? Also, if anyone has any ideas for ways to use a Wizard in conjunction with a Warblade, such would be appreciated. (The Wizard is currently a 12th level generalist.)

I'm tempted to suggest White Raven Tactics, but that's just cheese. The Wizard might play it defensive, counterspelling the PC casters. On the other hand, he could cast battlefield control spells like black tentacles and hold spells. Slow, haste and web are also good ideas. Remember to give him fly, too.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-29, 01:11 PM
Okay, well first of all, thank you all for the comments! I'd like to address a couple of them really quickly. But first I should mention that I tend to build my NPCs with their place in the world in mind, rather than just for how they will be in a fight vs the PCs. After all, it's not like he knew ahead of time when he began his training as a child that it would all come down to fighting this particular group of adventurers. And secondly, I do occasionally make suboptimal choices when I feel they enhance the character's flavor or if there is some IC reason to do so.
Given that the most important time this guy shows up will be when he *is* fighting the PCs, you should probably adapt the backstory to that a little.

Chronicled
2008-03-30, 06:32 AM
But first I should mention that I tend to build my NPCs with their place in the world in mind, rather than just for how they will be in a fight vs the PCs. After all, it's not like he knew ahead of time when he began his training as a child that it would all come down to fighting this particular group of adventurers. And secondly, I do occasionally make suboptimal choices when I feel they enhance the character's flavor or if there is some IC reason to do so.

Unless your players are given a treatise on this NPC's life, they aren't going to know about why he chose all these maneuvers. What they are going to know is that Bob and Jim and Sally's characters all bought it in the first round. And if you give them a treatise, most players I know will get bored quickly.

I used to do NPCs somewhat like this. I usually ask my players what I could be doing better, and this was something that was brought up. It's nice to have a cohesive setting with actual NPC interactions, but anything that the PC's don't see might as well have never happened. D&D 3.5 has all sorts of rules for the DM for NPC interaction, but they really aren't important.

Ars Ludi has an article that I think you'd benefit from: Situations, Not Plots (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/49/situations-not-plots/).