O-Chul's information/interrogation

[Zeitgeist]

I'm pretty sure O-Chul doesn't know much that would help Redcloak (though he apparently doesn't realize that), but the bigger question is why hasn't he succeeded in an interrogation yet? He's clearly had him for quite some time, given the conversation he had with Xykon about it, so why hasn't he succeeded?

Now, I'm also pretty sure that RC would have no chance of interrogating O in regular interrogation. He couldn't use fear, and given Os nature (and the nature of a paladin), he would never spill any beans, so that would be the obvious answer as to why he hasn't got information. But RC should know this, yet he's still trying. Why he is trying to do the impossible, I don't know. He seems to be all about efficiency and meeting a schedule, and regular interrogation would be a big waste of time.

But the real question that comes up for me is why hasn't he used any spells to get the information out of him? I'm sure somebody there has access to spells that could force O to give the information they want (if he knows anything).

Really, he should try to get it out of him by magic, or not bother trying at all.

[Name_Here]

Probaly because to Red Cloak any information he gains from the interrogation is gravy since he enjoys torturing the Paladin due to his past. And also because he doesn't have access to wizards or any way of training them. Xykon is a sorceror and all through the attack we never saw any magic attacks coming from the Hobgoblin side of the field.

[Tempest Fennac]

Isn't Zone of Truth a Cleric spell? Also, the Brown Cloak seemed to be a Wizard.

[Spiryt]

Now, I'm also pretty sure that RC would have no chance of interrogating O in regular interrogation. He couldn't use fear, and given Os nature (and the nature of a paladin), he would never spill any beans, so that would be the obvious answer as to why he hasn't got information.


You know, fear isn't everything. The very point of tortures is to brake victim with pain. If he's torturing O-chul for so long time, reguraly, he will talk someday just to end the pain.

Damn, even in OotS unserious world it sounds horible. :smallyuk:

[snoopy13a]

Isn't Zone of Truth a Cleric spell? Also, the Brown Cloak seemed to be a Wizard.

Can't one overcome a truth spell by refusing to talk? Or by giving answers that are true but do not answer the question such as: "Goblins are green, Hobgoblins are orange"?

[Tempest Fennac]

Good point. Actually, regarding the point about Xykon (SoD spoiler):

he seems to use some sort of compulsion spell on the MitD when they first meet in order to get the MitD to eat RC if he was to turn on Xykon. Couldn't that spell be used on O-Chul?

[sikyon]

Can't one overcome a truth spell by refusing to talk? Or by giving answers that are true but do not answer the question such as: "Goblins are green, Hobgoblins are orange"?

Yes.

Red shouldn't be fearing O'Chul dying that much though, as he has Speak with dead. Can probably beat O'chul's save, and then he gets 30 questions at least, every week. He'd need to store the corpse in alcohol or something similar to preserve the mouth, though. Or just sever the head and store that.

[Silkenfist]

I'd go with the idea that was mentioned in the other thread earlier: Redcloak used spells earlier and didn't get the results, he needed. However, he estimates that it is more likely that the Paladins are shielded against mind control than the idea that they actually don't know about the other gates. So he keeps using mundane methods on the off-chance that they will work.

Still...there are better methods. Why not order a few wights in, drain a few levels, THEN use interrogation when Will Saves are down and level-dependant abilities are away.

[bluish_wolf]

You know, fear isn't everything. The very point of tortures is to brake victim with pain. If he's torturing O-chul for so long time, reguraly, he will talk someday just to end the pain.

Damn, even in OotS unserious world it sounds horible. :smallyuk:

Except, if he is talking to end the pain, that means that he's afraid of it...

[sikyon]

Red should also be executing commoners infront of O'Chul and tell him that if he talks, the commoners go free. Stuff like that. Break him via alignment.

[WarriorTribble]

There actually is a rather fun thread on why is Xykon was torturing O-chul here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4105169#post4105169) that can easily work for why Redclock is doing the exact same thing. :smallsmile:

[NerfTW]

There's a point where making the game mechanics transparent (lowering his levels with wights to lower his will save so that he can't resist a spell that does destroy a lot of cool things like spies and interrogations) ceases to be funny and just kills the plot.

Just because there's a spell to do almost anything, doesn't mean they should use it in the strip. It's far more important to give Redcloak and company something to have been doing the last three months, and restate his hatred of humans.

Plus, if they used zone of truth and found out that there's no information to be had, O'chul would be dead by now.

[Name_Here]

You know, fear isn't everything. The very point of tortures is to brake victim with pain. If he's torturing O-chul for so long time, reguraly, he will talk someday just to end the pain.

Damn, even in OotS unserious world it sounds horible. :smallyuk:

Yeah but he has been tortured by them just for fun he knows the pain doesn't end if he talks because then Redcloak has no reason to bring him back when the next round of betting ends. He's biding his time.

[Name_Here]

You know, fear isn't everything. The very point of tortures is to brake victim with pain. If he's torturing O-chul for so long time, reguraly, he will talk someday just to end the pain.

Damn, even in OotS unserious world it sounds horible. :smallyuk:

Yeah but he has been tortured by them just for fun he knows the pain doesn't end if he talks because then Redcloak has no reason to bring him back when the next round of betting ends. He's biding his time.

[WarriorTribble]

There's a point where making the game mechanics transparent (lowering his levels with wights to lower his will save so that he can't resist a spell that does destroy a lot of cool things like spies and interrogations) ceases to be funny and just kills the plot.

Just because there's a spell to do almost anything, doesn't mean they should use it in the strip. It's far more important to give Redcloak and company something to have been doing the last three months, and restate his hatred of humans.

Plus, if they used zone of truth and found out that there's no information to be had, O'chul would be dead by now.Don't see how considering one of the major points of the comic is to blatantly show it's mechanics to the most absurd degree. Not to mention if they already got the data from O-Chul, it might destroy the "Two's Company" dynamic, but that's hardly the only avenue for entertainment. Maybe instead we'll have a subplot of O-Chul escaping for example, or a single strip with the guy dead, which would give the main plot more time, or create another sub-plot one where he's talking with Roy/Shojo/She-who-must-never-be-named, etc.

[Damocles]

Since we are talking about evil Spellcasters: Mindrape (Book of vile Darkness) is simply the best spell to go when you are trying to gather Information. Thoug i fear that its not on Xykons list of Spells known. A real shame if you ask me(could solve a lot of his "bored" problems.)

Makes some fun in normal RP to. When you slip into some merchants memories and change them in a way, that buying water is his most important desire for which he would sell any of those stupid worthless things that are in his shop (like that very expensive magic sword over there).

[Zeitgeist]

There actually is a rather fun thread on why is Xykon was torturing O-chul here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4105169#post4105169) that can easily work for why Redclock is doing the exact same thing. :smallsmile:

Yeah, my thread too :P

But given Redcloak's response to Xykon, I don't think he's in it for the torture. To him, efficiency > torture. He would want to interrogate in the quickest way possible, not the most fun way, so I consider his reasoning to be quite different.

[Electric_Monkey]

Redcloak's probably Lawful Evil, which suggests one of two possibilities to me. 1) He could have a set procedure along the lines of A) cast spells B) If subject doesn't reveal information assume magical protection and do things the hard way C) repeat as necessary, and he's not going to abandon it just because it's not getting results as quickly as it does on people other than the toughest paladin in the Sapphire Guard.

2) He wants to torture the paladin for the sake of torturing a Paladin, and wants to do it all himself, either for sheer satisfaction, or because he believes he's better than Xykon at maximising the pain to permanent damage ratio. However, being LE he tries to justify it by pretending he wants information that probably won't be forthcoming, and that he'd have a better chance of obtaining by magic.

[Callista]

Red should also be executing commoners infront of O'Chul and tell him that if he talks, the commoners go free. Stuff like that. Break him via alignment.You can't force a paladin to fall that way, whichever way he decides (check the description; it has to be a free will action, and a forced choice isn't... you would be responsible for either the death of the commoner or whatever you did with the information). You will totally mess with his conscience, of course; and you'll probably cause some variety of insanity; but insane doesn't make him any less stubborn. Still, that would definitely be my first choice if I were an evil guy, without access to magic, trying to get information from just about any good aligned enemy. Because he's a paladin, he basically thinks of pain, death, and just about anything else you can inflict on him as a fair trade. You have to strike at what he cares about: innocent people.

You'd have to kill several, though; and you'd have to count on getting lies the first few times as your prisoner attempts to find a third option. You would also have to guard against the prisoner attempting suicide, since he might try that to avoid having to make yet another choice. Plan on having to kill at least ten villagers to get past the lies; their Commoner 1 HD won't last long under torture and you'll need replacements regularly. If the information is important enough, he might keep quiet no matter how many you kill--"the end of the world" could qualify. And remember, this is what I think the best option for those wanting to extract info from a paladin without magic. Point being: Paladins are really, really hard to interrogate.

I don't think they're dealing with a lack of magic here, though. Tsukiko's spell list should include Wizard spells; and if she can't cast Dominate Person, I'll be very surprised. (She could have a banned school.) At the very least, there will be scrolls collected from Azure City which she could use.

I stick to my previous statement: If O'Chul knows anything, Xykon and crew know it now, too.

I think we're looking at a mistaken assumption on Redcloak's part that the Sapphire Guard would be given a great deal of information in the first place.

However, if you were using magic and sure that your victim was evading it, couldn't you just cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction at them? Sure, it's a 9th level spell; but Xykon's capable of it, and can use a scroll if he doesn't know it. MDJ will get rid of any magical effect that could allow him to evade mind control; and if after that you cast Dominate and he still won't say anything, you can be pretty sure he doesn't know anything.

Why Redcloak hasn't thought of this?... Well, it *is* a wizard's spell, Redcloak may not know about its existence, and Xykon may be thinking more about deathtraps and not enough about actually helping Redcloak. Once again, O'Chul wins. Kind of. :smalleek:

[Forealms]

I'm setting up my prediction here and now (Stealing a bit of somebody else's idea, first, of course) :smalltongue:

Assuming Redcloak doesn't already have the information he needs, He will conjure up an illusion (or find somebody who can, maybe Xykon?) of a peasant child. They will have a hobgoblin guard "hold" the child over the acid-shark tank. Fearing for the child, he will give everything he knows. Now, it goes one of 3 ways.

1) Redcloak thinks he is hiding information and he threatens to drop the "child". When O'Chul gives no more, he drops the illusion and has the X's appear in its eyes. O'chul goes berserk and tries to kill them, forcing himself to be killed or knocked unconcious.

2)Redcloak has the illusion dropped anyway and has the X's appear in its eyes. O'chul goes berserk and tries to kill them, forcing himself to be killed or knocked unconcious.

3) Starts out as one of the other two, but when O'chul goes crazy he forces Redcloak to disintegrate him, which I believe stops the ability of Speak With Dead, does it not?

Rich would not have the illusion be real, lest the comic becomes too dark.

[Callista]

Agreed. And an illusion could be done more dramatically.

Of course there's the matter of the save to disbelieve... one of those, and you ruin the strategy for all time.

[Forealms]

True enough. However, I have a feeling that, even as smart as O'chul is, he wouldn't want to take the risk of it being a real child.

[Callista]

yeah, that'd probably give him a penalty to his save. Pally saves are still pretty good, though, especially Will. I'd give it even odds that he disbelieves.

[sikyon]

I think that the best method is wight level drain, then kill him, then use speak with dead in a zone of truth.

[Callista]

I'm still sticking with Dominate Person. That's what I'd do in Redcloak's shoes.

But for some reason, they are having to resort to non-magical means... so both Speak with Dead and Dominate Person are apparently not viable options.

[Tempest Fennac]

Actually, Tsukiko uses Dominate Person on Tharn, so we know she can use it. Why she hasn't tried it doesn't make much sense (unless she tried it and he got a new save due to giving away secrets about the gaes being against his nature).

[David Argall]

yeah, that'd probably give him a penalty to his save. Pally saves are still pretty good, though, especially Will. I'd give it even odds that he disbelieves.

The paladin will save probably should be their best one, but it's fort like other melee types. O'Chul's will save isn't terrible, but Redcloak can force daily, or even hourly saves. So even if O'Chul had a great will save, Redcloak should be rapidly get what he wants out of him.

I'll go with some combination of...
Redcloak refuses to believe the truth, that O'Chul, his only apparent path to the next gate, doesn't know much of use.
Redcloak doesn't really care that much. Torturing paladins is work he enjoys. [He probably also enjoys being effective boss of the city for that matter. If it takes him a couple of years to drag the "truth" out of the paladin, he's not going to mind.]

[theinsulabot]

this is easily explained, we KNOW that the pallies sore not to interfear with the gates, or to investigate in anyway, hell, thats why whats his old-man-face had to hire the order in the first place. while its theoretically possible the head pally of this or that time may have discreetly put out a few feelers in the same way old man whatever did, he wouldn't of exactly put out leaflets, even to his top generals, as they would be paladins and therefor honor bound to report any breaking of the oath.


there may be a hidden book stashed somewhere with informational reports on the other gates, but O'Chul knows absolutely zero, and RC is just showing how stubborn he is by continuing this farce

[Callista]

Actually, Tsukiko uses Dominate Person on Tharn, so we know she can use it. Why she hasn't tried it doesn't make much sense (unless she tried it and he got a new save due to giving away secrets about the gaes being against his nature).He would get that save. It's just a matter of spamming Dominate until he rolls a 1.

[holywhippet]

If there was a book containing information about the gates it was probably in or near the throne room which was blown to kingdom come.

Zone of truth compels truthful answers, but you can avoid giving answers that are useful. For example, if asked "What kind of defenses does the next gate have" you can answer "Magical" or "Assorted" or "Strong". Accurate, but not useful.

[Gerli]

I saw this on 4Chan this morning...
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/6541/654165464if5.jpg
:smalleek:

[Gerli]

Doublepost, sorry

[Zeful]

Agreed. And an illusion could be done more dramatically.

Of course there's the matter of the save to disbelieve... one of those, and you ruin the strategy for all time.

You only get saves against most illusions if you interact. O-Chul isn't interacting so he can't get a will save.

Also Subdual substitution might work to tourture. Flames that can't kill but still hurt on 20+ commoners might be enough to get him to spill the beans.

[Callista]

I don't see why Redcloak would hesitate to kill commoners, anyway. The illusion variety is just more controllable.