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Asaris
2008-03-29, 11:35 AM
So, I'm having my players create 20th level characters for a one-shot involving a red dragaon. I was thinking about sending them against a Great Wyrm. So some questions.

1. Is this an appropriate challenge level for them? Most of them are not power-gamers, but all of the characters should be solid.

2. Any advice for me as I create the dragon?

I've put the info I intend to sent to the group below the fold.

Characters will be built on a 32 point buy. Max hp first level, 1/2 hit die +1 every other level. (So a d4 hit die is 3 hp per level; a d10 is 6 hp per level). Feel free to use any base or prestige class from a 3.5 source, except for Savage Species, Book of Vile Darkness, or Book of Exalted deeds. No psionics -- I just don't like them. Ask me before you take a race with more than a +2 LA. You have standard wealth for 20th level, but if you go a bit over, don't worry about it. You are halfway between 20th and 21st, if you want to use xp to craft stuff. Any cohorts should be built using the elite array, and limited to the standard wealth for their level. You may not take any other followers with you. I'll want a list of all spells you have memorized, and 10 items you have ready access to. All other items you will not be able to reach in combat, unless you can give me a good reason for it. Use care -- I'm not going to make this easy for you, and there will be a variety of challenges.

You have been summoned by the Emperor beyond the Sea. His sages tell him that the Wyrm Ouroborous is awakening to bring death and ruin to the world, and only you can stop it. The wyrm is an ancient (not necessarily Ancient) red dragon living in an active volcano in the Mountains of Doom. You know that red dragons are associated with fire, they are powerful spellcasters, and they are resistant to magic.

Arbitrarity
2008-03-29, 11:42 AM
Dragons have something known as the "awesome" template. This means they are much tougher than their CR. However, as the party is forewarned, they can hopefully prebuff, which will aid in defeating the dragon.

Is that a Narnia reference?

Kurald Galain
2008-03-29, 11:49 AM
Depends on the PC classes.

Beware of such things like "arcane reach maximized shivering touch", which can drop a dragon in one hit.

Zid
2008-03-29, 11:55 AM
How many PCs? If they really want to, three players can come with six characters, as you allow leadership.

For building the dragon: Draconomicon is your friend. It has the metabreath feats, and feats like spellcasting harrier and Dire charge (full attack on charge). It also has metabreath spells (Deal fire AND cold damage on your breath attack, they wonīt come prepared for that), superior magic fang (+4 enhancement bonus on all natural attacks) and scintilating scales (+ deflection bonus to AC).

A great Worm has a caster level of 19, so itīs also a powerful sorcerer. If it has divination spells in its spell list, it will probably use them each day to find out if they are under threat. Do the PCs protect themselves from that in any way?

Donīt forget that a dragon that is so old should have powerful magic items as well.

Edit: Will you allow your characters to use the feats from draconomicon as well?

Nattypat
2008-03-29, 11:59 AM
Some spell penetration feats + ray of clumsiness?

Asaris
2008-03-29, 12:29 PM
I'm hoping the player's won't think of the easy one-shot kills; it's not so much not giving them credit, as it is that that's not really how they think.

There will be five or six PCs. They have access to just about everything, so yes, Draconomicon is in.

I'll ask the PCs if there's anything they do everyday (Heroes Feast comes to mind). I still haven't picked the dragon's spells yet. I intend to randomly generate the treasure, and see if there's anything the dragon can use.

Thanks for the advice.

Draz74
2008-03-29, 02:10 PM
Dragons, while already powerful, can become much more intimidating by taking just a couple levels in Sorcerer or Tome of Battle classes. (Sorcerer dips give them a familiar that will actually be a pretty scary combatant, especially if they also manage to spend a feat on Improved Familiar.) Giving it some form of Pounce-like ability (Lion Totem Barbarian dip if you want to be cheesy, or any number of ToB maneuvers such as Sudden Leap or Pouncing Charge or Quicksilver Motion) is also a huge boost to its power.

Antimagic Field is a dragon's best friend if it has a high enough caster level to use it. Not much can beat a Grappling Dragon in an AMF.

Scintillating Scales from the Spell Compendium is another killer spell (but a defensive one) for Dragons. Shivering Touch this!

Of course Draconomicon has some really cool feats and spells for dragons too.

If they try hard enough, they should definitely be able to handle this challenge (e.g., if they all have Level 18 Full Caster Cohorts).

What kind of terrain is the battle going to take place in? Because that has a huge influence on the Dragon's ideal build, i.e. whether it should take Flyby Attack and related feats. Flying hit-and-run dragons in open areas are nasty!

Keld Denar
2008-03-29, 03:03 PM
Don't forget about Blood Wind, a 1st level wiz/sorc spell that gives natural attacks a 20 ft range increment. That means for a mere -2 penalty, you can attack out to 40, and a -4 penalty gets you a range out to 60...very nice for a dragon.

Smiley_
2008-03-29, 04:08 PM
Dragons are pretty tricky to deal with. Alter the environment to suit their needs. If it is a black dragon, an underground cave with an acid pool would do well. Stalagmites are nice targets to drop PCs on. A red dragon may live in a volcano. Someplece where cold spells hardly ever work and that immunity to fire is a definite bonus. Blue dragons are crafty and may have a network of tunnels to work from and so on.

If the PCs decide to throw up all of their buffs before confronting the dragon, the dragon will probably already know what class levels the PCs have and their favorite foods. It will have a chance to throw up it's defensive spells and summons as well. The only way to circumvent this is to burst in sans buffs before the dragon has any time to cast spells, and doing something like this without magical enhancement is an almost certain TPK if the dragon is used correctly.

As for feats, flyby attack for a standard action in the middle of the move action

Improved flyby attack removes the AoO enemies get from leavin their threatened areas.

Wingover eliminates the need for too much space and allows a clumsy great wyrm to change directions by using 10 ft movement instead of having to waste time arching around and risk crashing into a wall.

And remember, dragons are smart. They can identify threats and eliminate them in about one or two rounds. spellcasters are a prime target to use the snatch feat on. You initiate a grapple with something at least three size categories smaller than you and you deal continual claw damage to them. They also are considered grappled untill they break from the snatch while you can continue to move around and perform without that claw. Three spellcasters? cram one in your mouth and grab the other two. Three problems gone while you rain spells onto the rest of the PCs.

dspeyer
2008-03-29, 04:44 PM
If your great wyrm spends an early feat on flexible mind(spellcraft), he can take epic spellcasting at the 39th hit die. He'll get 2 epic spells per day, with a spellcraft mod around 50, and have plenty of time to research them. I think your party is toast (transform to inanimate is sc dc 31, +10 to save dc is another sc dc 20....)

If you prefer a non-cheesy approach, remember that great wyrms still have a listed intelligence of 26. That's smarter than human max like human max exceeds human normal. He should consistently outsmart the party, and control the encounter. Since you're playing him in realtime without superhuman intelligence, you may want to apply his powers of anticipation retroactively.

What tactics he selects will depend on the party makeup. If the party specializes in per-day powers (lots of mages), then he'll want to give them trouble every half hour or so (to let the buff spells wear off) throughout the day and attack in person at nightfall. Summoned monsters are good for this. They also reveal how the PCs can handle certain things (eg a huge fire elemental will reveal any means of immunity to fire they may have). If the party has many violent characters, use enchantments (the great thing about silenced dominate person is that the rest of the party doesn't need to know until it's too late). If they seem dependant on magical gear (and what high-level party isn't?) use dispel magic (you recover your dispels each night -- they don't recover their items) or disjunction (to surprise them all at once). Picking off your enemies one by one is almost always a good strategy, if they separate, as is attacking at night, unless they sleep extra-dimensionally, and maybe even then with dispel magic.

In any case, use defensive spells liberally: scintillating scales, of course, but also greater invisibility, protection from cold, and spell turning.

So long as you keep the initiative and hit them where they're not expecting, you should be able to devour that party.

sikyon
2008-03-29, 05:54 PM
If you prefer a non-cheesy approach, remember that great wyrms still have a listed intelligence of 26. That's smarter than human max like human max exceeds human normal. He should consistently outsmart the party, and control the encounter. Since you're playing him in realtime without superhuman intelligence, you may want to apply his powers of anticipation retroactively.

Int 26 is going to be somewhere around a standard wizard int, considering magic items and whatnot.



This is going to end up a few possible ways:

1) The PC's optimize. Dragon is boned when it loses initiative to the wizard or gets spring attack/power attack/shock trooper'ed for 300 damage or something like that.

2) PC's don't optimize but are solid: Varying degrees, could be a good fight.

3) PC's anticipate another regular CR20 encounter. Dragon probably wins.

Given that this is a one-shot, your PC's are probably going to be closer to 1) than to 2). Wizard goes in with celerity+foresight + metamagic maximize rod in hand + timestops and uses shivering touch and it goes down, or just reads of a zillion scrolls of delayed fireball during the timestops which go off at the same time.

I suggest making 2 dragons, based on how optimized the party is.

de-trick
2008-03-29, 06:12 PM
have a ring of resistance to cold so the pc's cant use cold against him

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-29, 06:22 PM
A Red Dragon Great Wyrm casts as a Sorcerer - 19 who can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells. Why would the PCs know it is a Red Dragon maybe it pretends to be a White Dragon to deal with those pesky adventurers. The legend could have it trapped as a White Dragon.

That should mean No Experience Miracles with a base Intelligence of 26 and a Wisdom of 27 before magical items for one of the 2 known spells because of the spellcasting utility they provide the dragon.

Lot of options for a dragon Permanent Unhallows, Simulacrums, Word of Recall, Teleport, Daily Mindblanks and Greater Miracle offer more.

Foresight, Shades, Shapechange or Timestop are nice for the other level nine spell.

Taking Mindblank addresses most divinations.

The level 7 Summon Aspect of Bahamut spell for one of the evil aspects, Limited Wish is also nice along with Spell Turning or a Ring of Spell Turning.

Certainly Antimagic shell or an Antimagic Torc usable 1/Day for 25,000 gp and Anyspell Greater.

Charm Monster, Invisibility Greater

Anyspell, Clairvoyant sense, Shrink Item Traps

Mirror Image and Rope Trick (In the ceiling (Dispelled falls on the adventurers))

Color Spray, Grease, Shield

IMO the lair should have permanent Alarms (Scrolls) with Permanent Enlarged Unhallows that prevent teleportation. (Mindblank should address divinations). Rope Trick is an extradimensional space that a dragon can easily fit inside (No size limitation on the spell just numbers of creatures).

As extremely intelligent creatures dragons should have useful magical treasure they utilize like a Greater Ring of Energy Resistance Cold if the dragon isn't adopting simple tactics or using a buff like Resist Energy. Things like a Hat of Disguise to look like a different color dragon say White.

Leadership with a tribe of Kobolds and other agents.

How about a Minor Artifact or two for MDJs?

Kizara
2008-03-29, 06:44 PM
Remember that every feat after its 20th HD it qualifies for an Epic Feat. Be sure to make use of that. :)

Also:

Use Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity for all those pesky anti-dragon spells.

Ring of Counterspells (with Greater Dispel Magic) in it, pre-buff before combat.

Don't forget: Divine spells= Divine Power and Righteous Might. The ELH has rules for Colossal+ creatures :).

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-29, 06:56 PM
I'm sure somewhere in Draconomicon it said that dragons qualify for epic feats once they reach Adult (or was it Old?) age. Coupled with Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Field, you can easily limit the PCs' tactics against the dragon.

Unfortunately though, the dragon's DR is supernatural (DR x/magic), which means AMF will nullify the protection.



p.s. Well of course, a warblade with Ironheart Surge (which sounds a lot like "a druid with natural spell feat") can suppress the field for the turn...

Smiley_
2008-03-29, 07:43 PM
The PC's optimize. Dragon is boned when it loses initiative to the wizard or gets spring attack/power attack/shock trooper'ed for 300 damage or something like that.


I humbly beg to differ. Even if the PCs are optimized, the dragon will already be expecting them (you don't live to be 2000+ years being oblivious to every adventurer wanting to kill you). Also, the dragon fights on the dragon's terms, not the PCs and will initiate his turn when he want's to. Initiative is not a problem. Leap attacking meele build that does 300 damage? Maze for a temporary solution and maybe plane shift. The wizard? the dragon can play with the frail frame of the caster like a cat plays with a bug.

And even if the battle is going arwy, plane shift to the elemental plane of fire or dimension door out of there. Not too difficult.

This is a being older than most of the current nations, maybe all. Nothing, even large ammounts of Gorgonzola, is going to take him down easily.

Hawriel
2008-03-29, 09:41 PM
Well there is always having the dragon buff the crap out of himself. Stone skin blink invisablility Mirror image. Good old save VS crap your pants at facing a great wyrm. flying the melee classess cluched in his teath into orbet and letting them drop. use greater dispel magic on the characters.

greenknight
2008-03-29, 10:02 PM
So, I'm having my players create 20th level characters for a one-shot involving a red dragaon. I was thinking about sending them against a Great Wyrm. So some questions.

1. Is this an appropriate challenge level for them? Most of them are not power-gamers, but all of the characters should be solid.

It depends on just how you set up the dragon. If you make it as tough as it probably should be, then there's no way a normal party of 20th level characters can defeat it - especially if most of them aren't power gamers.


2. Any advice for me as I create the dragon?

You've been given a lot of good advice already, but just to add a couple of things:

* Make sure the Dragon has a Rod of Absorption strapped to it's back leg (or if you feel the PCs are really going to hammer it with spells, have one on each leg). This way, spells like Shivering Touch will simply increase the Dragon's power rather than harm it.

* Give the Dragon an Orange Ioun Stone to increase it's caster level. There's lots of spells that gain an extra boost from a 20th level caster.

* Have the Dragon know the Foresight/Celerity spell combo, and have Foresight up. Just don't use Celerity unless a PC does.

* Pre-Buff the Dragon with Divine Power/Righteous Might/Divine Favor/Energy Immunity (Cold: Spell Compendium)/Mind Blank. You should also consider adding Greater Spell Immunity, although that's probably not essential. With those buffs, the Dragon should be able to concentrate on making physical attacks for dealing damage rather than spells.

* Make sure the Dragon knows the Heal spell.

* A 19th level Sorcerer only knows 2 9th level spells. One should be Time Stop, but there's lots of good spells for the other slot. Gate is probably the best choice, since you can use that to get practically any other 9th level spell. Miracle is also very good, since there's lots of 0 XP spells you can cast with it.

* A simple Disguise Self spell can change the Dragon's appearance, making it difficult to see the creature's equipment. I'd have it look like a Blue Dragon to slightly reduce the chance the PCs will use Electric attacks against it (you could even buff the Red with immunity to cold, electric, acid and sonic damage to make all the elemental damage types useless).

At the end of the battle, when the Dragon has mopped the floor with the PCs, show the players the Dragons stat sheet and explain your strategies to them. They might gain a lot more respect for the power of Dragons. Or they might just beat you around the head with heavy objects for putting them against such a hard to beat foe.

Zid
2008-03-30, 02:34 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4124483#post4124483


Check this thread out if you want to play the above scenario.