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View Full Version : Why is Elven Chain 4x more expensive...



LongVin
2008-03-29, 04:17 PM
I am in the process of creating a rogue right now and I noticed that Elven Chainmail cost is approx. 4,000 gold but a Mithral Shirt which actually has better stats costs(same AC, no armor penalty, lighter weight and better dex bonus) is only 1,100 gold.

Maybe I am reading the descriptions wrong but what is the benefit if going with Elven Chain?

Kyeudo
2008-03-29, 04:20 PM
It's probaby a hold over from a previous edition.

kpenguin
2008-03-29, 04:22 PM
Actually, elven chainmail has a better AC bonus than a mithral shirt (+5 to +4). The cost is exactly the same as having mithral chainmail.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-29, 04:23 PM
Elven Chain is statted as Mithral Chain Mail.

Now then, a Chain Shirt is Light Armor, so Mithral Chain is only +1k

However, Chain *MAIL* is Medium Armor, so it's +4k, which explains the price.

If you look, Elven Chain in the DMG actually has an AC of +5, wheras a Chain Shirt only has an AC of +4 (although the max dex of Mithral Chain Shirt is +6 wheras the Mithral Chainmail is only +4.

LongVin
2008-03-29, 04:24 PM
Ah ok. Thanks.

tyckspoon
2008-03-29, 04:24 PM
No real benefit unless you're really hard up for a point of AC. The Elven Chain is chainmail, not a chain shirt; that's base AC 5. The extreme difference in costs is from the increase in the cost of mithral for a Medium armor over a Light one. The best use for Elven Chainmail is having a Mithril Chain Shirt made out of it and selling off the rest of the mithril for value by weight. Which probably turns out to be worth more than the actual market cost of the chainmail, because D&D's economy is all kinds of fxbored.

bugsysservant
2008-03-29, 04:30 PM
No real benefit unless you're really hard up for a point of AC. The Elven Chain is chainmail, not a chain shirt; that's base AC 5. The extreme difference in costs is from the increase in the cost of mithral for a Medium armor over a Light one. The best use for Elven Chainmail is having a Mithril Chain Shirt made out of it and selling off the rest of the mithril for value by weight. Which probably turns out to be worth more than the actual market cost of the chainmail, because D&D's economy is all kinds of fxbored.

I feel as though... no, just no. You've just hurt me.

Ashtar
2008-03-29, 05:16 PM
The reason Elven chain is so expensive it that elven smiths are so very rare.

Honestly who has ever met an elven Armourer / Smith in one of his Rpg sessions?

Bowyer / Fletcher or even Swordsmith yes, Armourer, never...

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-29, 05:18 PM
Inflation and the drawn out war with orcs.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-29, 05:22 PM
The reason Elven chain is so expensive it that elven smiths are so very rare.

Honestly who has ever met an elven Armourer / Smith in one of his Rpg sessions?

Come on, the greatest smith in modern fantasy (not the greatest character who is a smith; that'd be Conan) is an elf - Feanör. Elven smiths also forged the rings of power.

Ashtar
2008-03-29, 06:09 PM
Yes but all elven smiths are from a long time ago... I mean here's part of the Year of the Trees, for goodness sake. That's long before "playing epoch". I never said elves didn't have smiths, just they are so damn rare.

I bet elven smiths start in their teens, they are rebellious elves which never leave their "heavy metal" period... :smallbiggrin:

Zincorium
2008-03-29, 06:15 PM
Unless it's a dramatic necessity for your entire character concept, don't use chainmail. Use either a chain shirt or a breastplate.

Compared to chain mail, breastplates have the same armor value, better max dex, less of an armor check penalty, less ASF, and 10 pounds lighter weight. And it's only 50 GP more. If you can swing 150 but not 200, get a chain shirt.

Real world note: chain mail stopped being used by itself real quick after plate mail became possible to manufacture. Breast plates were used well into the renaissance (conquistadors!) era. It's just plain better.

Fostire
2008-03-29, 06:22 PM
It's probaby a hold over from a previous edition.

Couldn't elven mages cast while in elven chain mail in 2nd edition?, or did i just made that up?

Starbuck_II
2008-03-29, 07:05 PM
Couldn't elven mages cast while in elven chain mail in 2nd edition?, or did i just made that up?

No, it was the few armors one can wear and cast arcane spells.

Chronos
2008-03-29, 07:36 PM
The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

And yes, my spelling there is correct. The silvery miracle metal in Tolkien's stories was mithril; the substance in D&D which closely resembles it is mithral.

holywhippet
2008-03-29, 08:42 PM
The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

And yes, my spelling there is correct. The silvery miracle metal in Tolkien's stories was mithril; the substance in D&D which closely resembles it is mithral.

No surprise there, why do you think D&D has halflings instead of hobbits? Answer: because unlike a lot of the other things they "borrowed" when making D&D, the Tolkien estate protect their IP and would have sued them if they didn't change the names/spellings.

Citizen Joe
2008-03-29, 10:51 PM
*grumble grumble* ... first edition Dieties and Demigods w/ Elric and Cthulu...

AslanCross
2008-03-30, 01:01 AM
*grumble grumble* ... first edition Dieties and Demigods w/ Elric and Cthulu...

Cthulhu actually isn't protected by copyright. I don't know exactly how that happened.

Reinboom
2008-03-30, 01:09 AM
All this banter and no mention that Mithral Breastplate is yet better?
Really, why do people bother with Elven Chain? 50 gp difference for... -5% ASP, +1 max dex, -1 armor check penalty overall in comparison is well worth it by the time mithral matters. Oh, and lighter too.
:smalltongue:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-30, 04:57 AM
Cthulhu actually isn't protected by copyright. I don't know exactly how that happened.

Because they had Moorcock's copyrighted characters in there. "Smooth move, TSR-Lax."

Rutee
2008-03-30, 05:02 AM
Come on, the greatest smith in modern fantasy (not the greatest character who is a smith; that'd be Conan) is an elf - Feanör. Elven smiths also forged the rings of power.

I believe you're confusing this Feanor Elf with the Dwarves who forged Mjollnir...


All this banter and no mention that Mithral Breastplate is yet better?
Really, why do people bother with Elven Chain? 50 gp difference for... -5% ASP, +1 max dex, -1 armor check penalty overall in comparison is well worth it by the time mithral matters. Oh, and lighter too.
Because they're allured by the Elven Chain Male (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/RuteeKatreya/80a9a62d.jpg) :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-03-30, 07:14 AM
I believe you're confusing this Feanor Elf with the Dwarves who forged Mjollnir...

It appears you're confusing Norse mythology with modern fantasy :o

fendrin
2008-03-30, 08:45 AM
The really funny part is that the fantasy item which inspired Elven Chain Mail, Bilbo's mithril coat, was made by dwarves.

Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

senrath
2008-03-30, 08:49 AM
Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

I dunno. Considering that the average person in the DnD world won't see more than a few gold pieces in their lifetimes...

ashmanonar
2008-03-30, 10:19 AM
Ah, but The Hobbit states it was made for an elf. A young elven prince, actually. Also, mithril is distinctly an elven term. Others refer to it as 'silver-steel', 'true-silver', or 'Moria-silver'. Thus mithril is associated with elves, though the dwarves mine it from Moria.

So really, it makes sense for mithral to be associated with elves, not dwarves.

Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

Regardless, Bilbo's Mithril shirt was crafted by Dwarves, for that elven prince. (yet never delivered...) I'm fairly certain it was continually referred to as mithril because that's how most people referred to it, in most lands (only the Dwarves called it something else.)

The devaluation of Mithral compared to Mithril is true. It's probably because if they made Mithral as rare as Mithril, one character in any one campaign could have a mithral chain shirt. It just wouldn't work for gameplay.

kamikasei
2008-03-30, 10:24 AM
Also, D&D has devalued mithral in comparison to mithril. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Bilbo's mail is referred to as 'a kingly gift', and being more valuable than the entirety of the shire... which I'm sure is quite a bit more than 1,100gp.

By the time of LotR there is no new source of mithril; it could only be found in Moria (making it rare to start with) and it is not mined by the goblins so it's been available only through hoarding and recycling for however long the dwarves have been driven out of Khazad-dum. One assumes that in a typical D&D world it's available from more than one location and is still currently being mined. If you want to make it as rare in your campaign as it is at the start of the Fourth Age, then it shouldn't be available for gold at all, and the listed price should only factor into WBL calculations.

Signmaker
2008-03-30, 10:42 AM
It's usually better, monetary-wise, to get a Mith Breastplate, rather than a Mithral Shirt.

While yes, Breastplate costs 3k more for one AC, consider this.

You want an AC of 8 from your armor.

Breastplate requires +9k to achieve this.

Shirt requires +16k.

So while the shirt is initially more economical, the Breastplate is superior in the long run.

Rutee
2008-03-30, 10:51 AM
It appears you're confusing Norse mythology with modern fantasy :o

Fantasy is fantasy, dood.

fendrin
2008-03-30, 10:53 AM
I dunno. Considering that the average person in the DnD world won't see more than a few gold pieces in their lifetimes...
Npc WBL has lvl 1 NPCs having 900gp worth of gear. Most of that for a commoner would likely be in the form of property, such as the family farm. That means that so long as the shire has at least 2 people in it, it is worth more than Bilbo's shirt. Actually, it is referred to as a 'coat', so one could argue that it would be chainmail, not a chain shirt, so it would be 4150, which means that the shire would have to have only 5 occupants.


I'm fairly certain it was continually referred to as mithril because that's how most people referred to it, in most lands (only the Dwarves called it something else.)

The dwarves called it 'Moria-silver'. Most others called it 'True-silver'. The narration in the hobbit refers to it as 'silver-steel'. Only Elves and those who spend a lot of time with elves (Gandalf, Aragorn, Bilbo, etc.) refer to it as mithril.

The fact of the matter is that the particular item in question is only mentioned on a handful of pages. Two in The Hobbit, 4 or 5 in The Fellowship of the Ring, and two in The Return of the King. The idea of it lives on much more than the actuality. Besides, D&D is 'Tolkien-inspired', not 'Tolkien-complete-copied'.


By the time of LotR there is no new source of mithril; it could only be found in Moria (making it rare to start with) and it is not mined by the goblins so it's been available only through hoarding and recycling for however long the dwarves have been driven out of Khazad-dum. One assumes that in a typical D&D world it's available from more than one location and is still currently being mined. If you want to make it as rare in your campaign as it is at the start of the Fourth Age, then it shouldn't be available for gold at all, and the listed price should only factor into WBL calculations.
Yes, that is true. Surely there must be other veins of Mithril somewhere else in the world, just not in Middle-Earth. I wonder of it is a byproduct of the Balrog? Perhaps it is the reaction of some magical radiation put off my fallen Maiar (or are they Valar? I always get mixed up) on normal silver.


It's usually better, monetary-wise, to get a Mith Breastplate, rather than a Mithral Shirt.

While yes, Breastplate costs 3k more for one AC, consider this.

You want an AC of 8 from your armor.

Breastplate requires +9k to achieve this.

Shirt requires +16k.

So while the shirt is initially more economical, the Breastplate is superior in the long run.
By the time the Breastplate becomes more economical, Greater Magic Vestment is readily available enough to eliminate the need for more than the +1 needed to add special abilities.

Eldariel
2008-03-30, 10:58 AM
Fantasy is fantasy, dood.

All fantasy isn't modern fantasy though :P

Citizen Joe
2008-03-30, 11:02 AM
Actually, it is probably just a good alloy of steel. Probably has some chromium in it to make it shiny. Modern steel alloys can be much stronger that what was commonly available in the fantasy times. So for a given amount of protection, the better steel armor could be significantly lighter. Now, that particular alloy might be harder to forge, or require hotter furnaces or something, but it doesn't need some supernatural source of creation, just better technology. The dwarves had that technology (skill with metals) but they didn't really have the need for light armors. They were strong and moved slow anyway, may as well use the easier to make and mass produce heavy armors rather that spend their gold on one suit. Of course, if it is a gift, then that is a different horse altogether.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-30, 12:58 PM
Mithril isn't an alloy; there are several alloy metals (like eog, a black meteorite iron alloy created by the dark elf, Eöl) in Middle-Earth, but mithril isn't one. They mined it in Moria, so it's definitely not an alloy.

Mithral might be.

Also, Middle-Earth armor was pretty much all mail (I don't recall any explicit mentions of harness, just hauberks / mail); dwarves wore hauberks, and making your hauberk of a lighter and stronger metal is always advantageous if feasible.

Chronos
2008-03-30, 01:04 PM
Yes, that is true. Surely there must be other veins of Mithril somewhere else in the world, just not in Middle-Earth.There are. Aragorn's crown was made from mithril mined in Numenor, and it was available in Valinor as well. But of course, Numenor is gone forever, and Valinor is inaccessible to to the Children of Illuvatar.

And Tolkien's mithril is actually a pretty good match for aluminum. Although aluminum is abundant in the Earth's crust, it's almost all found in various compounds, and before the modern electrical methods were developed, the pure metal was far more precious than gold (this is why the Washington Monument is tipped with aluminum, for instance). Alloys of aluminum can be nearly as strong as steel for much less weight, and aluminum is one ingredient in a great many gemstones (and the Elves were said to have used mithril in the making of gems).

Citizen Joe
2008-03-30, 01:12 PM
Mithril isn't an alloy; there are several alloy metals (like eog, a black meteorite iron alloy created by the dark elf, Eöl) in Middle-Earth, but mithril isn't one. They mined it in Moria, so it's definitely not an alloy.

Mithral might be.

Also, Middle-Earth armor was pretty much all mail (I don't recall any explicit mentions of harness, just hauberks / mail); dwarves wore hauberks, and making your hauberk of a lighter and stronger metal is always advantageous if feasible.

It could be a naturally occurring alloy. That would pretty much limit it to deep mines near the magma. Anything that made it to the surface (as raw ore) would decay from the weather.

And all other things being equal, lighter and stronger metal is better for armour. However, things are never equal. It is probably more difficult to forge the stuff. It uses different techniques, since the components are different thicknesses. It takes much longer to make Mithril/Mithral armor. All that makes it much more expensive. When you then consider that falling off a cliff or getting stepped on by one of those giant elephant thingies will make you just as dead with mithril or leather armor, it becomes difficult to justify the cost for wide scale use. Also, by sending it OUT to a battle, you risk giving it to your enemy. Thus, it would be best served defending the homeland.

Rockbird
2008-03-30, 01:24 PM
Okay, not that it's really relevant, but meh. I can't ignore a possibility to talk about my favourite mythos :smallbiggrin: .

The dwarves of norse mythology didn't just forge Mjölner, but also (Among other things) Gungir, the spear that always finds its mark, Skräpp, the sword that fights on it's own, Tor's strength-belt, the chain (Or more accurately the thread) that bound Fenrir, and a ship that could be folded up and kept in your pocket. No wuss elf is going to come here and mess on mah dwarves turf, no! :smallamused:

Oh, and just because i need to say it: TOR WAS A WAR GOD, NOT A THUNDER GOD! GLBJHWBUIC!

[/Rant][/OT]

Chronos
2008-03-30, 02:49 PM
Oh, and just because i need to say it: TOR WAS A WAR GOD, NOT A THUNDER GOD! GLBJHWBUIC!Weren't all of the Norse gods war gods, pretty much?

TempusCCK
2008-03-30, 03:23 PM
As far as terminology of Mithril goes, everyone more or less referred to it as Mithril. The Dwarves had a name for it in their language, but much of their language was secret, and in Common they referred to it mostly as "Mithril." Except for in a few rare instances in the Hobbit it was "True Silver."

Pretty much everyone who was anyone in Middle Earth understood Elvish, even in Gondor they spoke it, and they had almost nothing to do with Elves at the end of the 3rd Age.

Mithril has to be a naturally occuring substance, because they mined it from Moria before the Balrog ever appeared, sure, they awoke it from beneath the Earth, but correct me if I'm wrong, did the Dwarves not mine the mithril for Bilbo's mail from the Lonely Mountain? I always kind of assumed that.

Crow
2008-03-30, 05:03 PM
Chromium is used in steel alloys to produce stainless steel. It also has the unfortunate quality of making the alloy more brittle. While this may be okay for small blades like knives, anything expected to absord impacts will suffer. this includes swords and armor. So Mithril is probably not stainless steel.

Aluminum is far too soft in it's natural form and needs to be alloyed to produce a metal with the strength to be used for most applications. Even then, it is far weaker than steal for a given thickness of material. Mithril is probably not aluminum either. The same goes for Titanium.

Cuddly
2008-03-30, 06:34 PM
If mithril has a real world analogue, I'd guess it'd be titanium. Aluminum is generally crappy if it has to take hits (like armor), and many steel alloys are brittle. A cobalt-steel drill bit, for instance, is ridiculously hard, but will splinter when struck with an iron hammer.


It's usually better, monetary-wise, to get a Mith Breastplate, rather than a Mithral Shirt.

While yes, Breastplate costs 3k more for one AC, consider this.

You want an AC of 8 from your armor.

Breastplate requires +9k to achieve this.

Shirt requires +16k.

So while the shirt is initially more economical, the Breastplate is superior in the long run.

Actually, it depends if on your dex. If you have lots of dex, mithral chain is better. And a +1 twilight mithral chainshirt = 0% ASF.

JadedDM
2008-03-30, 08:01 PM
Yes, back in 2E elven chain mail was the ONLY armor an arcane caster could wear and still cast their spells. Wearing any other type of armor, even padded or leather, would prevent you from casting any spells at all. Thus, elven chain mail was a pretty big deal, especially if you played an elven fighter/mage.

LibraryOgre
2008-03-30, 08:27 PM
Yes, back in 2E elven chain mail was the ONLY armor an arcane caster could wear and still cast their spells. Wearing any other type of armor, even padded or leather, would prevent you from casting any spells at all. Thus, elven chain mail was a pretty big deal, especially if you played an elven fighter/mage.

Of course, back in 1st edition, you could wear any armor you wanted if you were multi-classed (which meant an elf, half-elf, or gnome).

Crow
2008-03-30, 09:54 PM
If mithril has a real world analogue, I'd guess it'd be titanium. Aluminum is generally crappy if it has to take hits (like armor), and many steel alloys are brittle. A cobalt-steel drill bit, for instance, is ridiculously hard, but will splinter when struck with an iron hammer.

Titanium was already mentioned, and like aluminum needs to be alloyed to be of any practical use, otherwise it is too soft. Even then, it is far weaker than steel for a given amount of material. For instance, A blade made of titanium alloy would need to be ridiculously thick (like an inch or more, probably more) to equal a steel blade for strength.

Also, all steels are alloys too.