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View Full Version : A revision to make grappling more intuitive and a bit simpler.



Kizara
2008-03-29, 06:36 PM
Everyone hates the grappling rules, even if they are pretty decent simulation-wise.

So, I had an idea to simplify matters.

Revised Grappling Rules:

Step 1) Move into melee range (with your natural weapons) and roll a grapple check. Doing so is an attack action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

The grapple check is your melee attack bonus (10+ BAB + strength) + your special size modifier + any grappling-specific modifiers you have (Impr. Grapple feat, etc).

This is opposed by your opponents grapple check, although they may elect to use their Dexterity modifier in lieu of their Strength modifier.

If your opponent damages you with their attack of opportunity, add their damage to their grapple check.

If you succeed, you deal damage as per the natural weapon you attacked with and are now grappling. If you already dealt damage as part of the grapple initiation (as per Improved Grab) you do not deal damage again.
Grappling means you are flat-footed and have limited available actions.

Step 2) Grappling options:

All grappling options require a successful opposed grappling check to succeed.
1) You can attack with a light weapon as an attack action.
2) You can attack with a natural weapon as an attack action.
3) You may use special combat actions (such as flurry of blows or rend) that involve striking with or using natural weapons.
4) You may attempt to escape the grapple as a full-round action, this allows the use of your Dexterity modifier in the grapple check as per resisting a grapple.
5) You may stop grappling as a swift action (whether your opponent also stops is their decision).
6) You may attempt to pin your opponent as a full round action. If you succeed, you are no-longer considered flatfooted (but he still is) and your opponent is prone.
7) You may attempt a bull-rush against your opponent, gaining a bonus on your grapple check for any bonuses you have to bull-rushing.



Yes, its still not short, but its more intuitive and straightforward. Basically, grappling= stuck fighting the other guy, you both are flatfooted and all attacks in a grapple are resolved with a grapple check.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-30, 05:01 AM
I don't get it - what's the difference? You changed what types of actions are used?

holywhippet
2008-03-30, 03:29 PM
Are you changing the consequences of the attack of opportunity? Does getting hit still cancel the grapple attempt?

Personally I'd make a successful attack of opportunity allow a fortitude save of DC 10 + damage done. If it succeeds then you can shrug off the pain and continue the grapple attempt.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-30, 03:42 PM
I don't get it - what's the difference? You changed what types of actions are used?

From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)

Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1

Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2

Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Basically the difference is the touch attack and the maintaining a grapple parts. I already do what Kizara suggested and have for a long time.

Kizara
2008-03-30, 04:17 PM
Are you changing the consequences of the attack of opportunity? Does getting hit still cancel the grapple attempt?

Personally I'd make a successful attack of opportunity allow a fortitude save of DC 10 + damage done. If it succeeds then you can shrug off the pain and continue the grapple attempt.

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that.
I'll add in that clause.

As for changing it to allow a Fort save, while reasonable, would add another level of complexity which I am trying to avoid. Also, I have made grappling generally more potent so I need to keep that counterbalance.

Yakk
2008-03-30, 05:39 PM
Initiating a grapple is an attack action.

Make a grapple attack (this may provoke an AoO -- if the AoO hits, the grapple fails) of BaB+Strength+Size Modifier.

If it hits your opponents touch AC, the defender makes an opposed grapple attack role (using either dexterity or strength) against your attack roll.

If you win, you have grappled your opponent, and deal your unarmed damage. If you win by at least 10, you are in a grapple with advantage.

One may also attempt to grapple without any hope of advantage: in that case, no size modifiers are used. (This represents climbing on a larger target).

While you have advantage, you may:
A> Oppose any attack or active skill roll with a grapple attack roll as a free action. (+4 to +8 to your check if your opponent is attempting to use a 1 hand/2 hand weapon, or similar awkward actions while grappled)
B> Oppose spellcasting with a grapple attack roll against their concentration check.
C> Drop the grapple and move 5' as a move action.
D> Attack with a light melee or natural weapon with no penalty against the other member of the grapple, or -4/-8 for normal/two handed weapons.
E> Block most other actions (movement, speech) as an opposed grapple check.

While you do not have advantage, you may attempt to remove advantage from one member as a move action. This is an opposed grapple check.

You may also attack a member of the grapple with an opposed grapple attack. On success, you do unarmed damage. If you succeed by 10, you gain advantage.

You may also prevent another character in the grapple who does not have advantage from leaving the grapple with an opposed grapple check.

Grappled characters who move bring the other character along with them.

...

The goal here is to both deal with wrestling, and climbing on top of a giant.

You can be in a grapple, or in a grapple with advantage. Having advantage means that the other person is in trouble, but you have to win by 10 and factor in size issues to get it.

And if that giant ever gets undistracted, it will be able to make you disadvantaged!

My variant needs polish: the OP's is far better in that respect. :)

Funkyodor
2008-03-30, 05:58 PM
How we were doing it was, Grappler rolled to hit, opponent tried to break and needed to roll a better AC hit than the grappler (no comparing rolls for the second part). Then the Grabber did damage. Every round the grabber either tried to increase his AC hit roll (potentially losing his grip if he failed to hit) and did damage, or automatically did damage based on his previous hit. Every victim round he could try and break free, or try and break free and grab at a penalty to hit. But this was 2nd ED. We haven't tried to smash this rule into 3.5 because no-one plays a Grappler.

I guess it could go like this. Touch attack hits, victim rolls to get out and must beat the AC rolled by attacker. Failure means damage taken and record the AC rolled by the attacker. Victim round, tries to break free by beating the AC rolled earlier and takes damage on failed attempts. Attacker round, attacker can roll to try and make the attack better and possibly lose the hold (victim gets to try and get out each time) or victim tries to escape again and takes damage for every failed attempt (based on the attackers number of attacks not the victims). If the victim fails for 3 rounds (victim and attacker combined rounds) then he is pinned. I think this is simpler and still gives the defender attempts to escape the victim role. If the Victim escapes he can take any combat actions still available. It exaggerates the feeling of "Oh Crap this guy is good how do I get out", and adds to the pummeling experience that is grappling. Freedom of action can be changed to an automatic +20 on the escape check to allow relative ease of escape without being a blanket CANNOT BE GRAPPLED statement.

Kizara
2008-03-30, 06:11 PM
How we were doing it was, Grappler rolled to hit, opponent tried to break and needed to roll a better AC hit than the grappler (no comparing rolls for the second part). Then the Grabber did damage. Every round the grabber either tried to increase his AC hit roll (potentially losing his grip if he failed to hit) and did damage, or automatically did damage based on his previous hit. Every victim round he could try and break free, or try and break free and grab at a penalty to hit. But this was 2nd ED. We haven't tried to smash this rule into 3.5 because no-one plays a Grappler.

I guess it could go like this. Touch attack hits, victim rolls to get out and must beat the AC rolled by attacker. Failure means damage taken and record the AC rolled by the attacker. Victim round, tries to break free by beating the AC rolled earlier and takes damage on failed attempts. Attacker round, attacker can roll to try and make the attack better and possibly lose the hold (victim gets to try and get out each time) or victim tries to escape again and takes damage for every failed attempt (based on the attackers number of attacks not the victims). If the victim fails for 3 rounds (victim and attacker combined rounds) then he is pinned. I think this is simpler and still gives the defender attempts to escape the victim role. If the Victim escapes he can take any combat actions still available. It exaggerates the feeling of "Oh Crap this guy is good how do I get out", and adds to the pummeling experience that is grappling. Freedom of action can be changed to an automatic +20 on the escape check to allow relative ease of escape without being a blanket CANNOT BE GRAPPLED statement.

You realize this is actually less intuitive then my system?

Compare the following statements:

1) Roll Spot opposed by the thief's Hide check.

2) Roll Spot, you are trying to beat the DC established by the thief when he made his Hide check

Now compare these 2:

1) Roll a Grapple check opposed by your opponent's Grapple check (could be simplified to say "Roll an opposed Grapple check").

2) Roll a Grapple check that must beat the "AC" created by the attacker's roll.


Mechanically, this is identical. Your way is merely more convoluted and uses terms that are slightly confusing and not relivant. AC is a very specifc term that is used to represent the difficulty in HITTING someone, as opposed to DC.

Funkyodor
2008-03-30, 06:34 PM
For every opposed attack roll both players toss D20'sl, calculate numbers, and compare. For some players I know, this could take a while. This is what adds to the complexity and time consumption. The way I proposed, the attacker came up with a number and the defender rolled to escape till he could beat it taking damage for each failed attempt or until he becomes pinned. If you want to add options then so be it, but a streamlined system with as few compared rolls and avalable options is simpler and intuitive. Plus it can add some 'Umph to a grappler build.

I guess I've tried to turn it into the inverse of the normal attacking system. Instead of rolling to beat AC and do damage, it's roll to beat AC or you take damage.