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ladditude
2008-03-29, 09:32 PM
Alright so I'm starting a new campaign soon and I wanted to play as a Rogue. My DM suggested taking levels of Swordsage since you get half the maneuvers and stances of your level. Since we were starting at level 5, I wanted to take Rogue4/Swordsage 1. I was planning on adding another level of Rogue next time I level up for an extra d6 of sneak attack. However, then I would have odd levels so I would be losing maneuvers and such. Thus, I thought I should take a level of fighter alternate for an extra d6, bringing me to 4d6 sneak attack. Would this work? Any suggestions?

So my build is looking like:
Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Swordsage X

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 09:49 PM
Alright so I'm starting a new campaign soon and I wanted to play as a Rogue. My DM suggested taking levels of Swordsage since you get half the maneuvers and stances of your level. Since we were starting at level 5, I wanted to take Rogue4/Swordsage 1. I was planning on adding another level of Rogue next time I level up for an extra d6 of sneak attack. However, then I would have odd levels so I would be losing maneuvers and such. Thus, I thought I should take a level of fighter alternate for an extra d6, bringing me to 4d6 sneak attack. Would this work? Any suggestions?

So my build is looking like:
Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Rogue 1/ Fighter 1/ Swordsage X

That's interesting, and could easily work. Why are you taking that fighter alternate level, though? They swap bonus feats for SA prog, so you're better off with another level of rogue, or better yet, another level of spellthief. In fact, there's so many classes out there that give 1d6 SA at level one you might as well take a 1 level dip in each of them. 7d6 at level 7 anyone?

ladditude
2008-03-29, 10:01 PM
With 5 levels of Rogue I would have 3d6 SA. Adding Fighter alternate I get 1 BAB and 1d6 SA and +2 Fort while giving me even levels for more Swordsage maneuvers.

Squash Monster
2008-03-29, 10:22 PM
Fighter is a good choice if you're going to dip for sneak attack. Most sneak attack dips don't grant bab on the first level, but fighter does.

The build looks pretty decent to me.

When you pick maneuvers, shadow hand is the obvious choice. However instead of just taking that I recommend you get Sudden Leap and that stance that boosts jumping from Tiger Claw (because they both compliment roguishness) and you get Mountain Hammer from Stone Dragon (because ignoring hardness = destroys objects = solves problems).

playswithfire
2008-03-30, 06:46 AM
There was a character builder thread request for a rogue/swordsage a while ago; this was my suggestion.


If your DM will allow this version (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm) of Invisible Blade, which I understand to be the original before it was split into invisible blade and master thrower, here's a quick build sketch.

Human Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 1/Swordsage +1/Invisible Blade and/or swordsage for as long as you like
Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
H Carmendine Monk (check with DM on this one; from champions of valor; uses int for monk abilities; might get int to ac in place of wisdom for swordsage)
3 open, probably Two Weapon Fighting
6 shadow blade
9 daring outlaw

Bonus feats: Weapon Focus(shadow hand weapons) from swordsage 1 and Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler 1

At level 5, you've got int to damage with the daggers you're using
6 gets you dex to damage and the Island of Blades stance to help you get your (currently) 1d6 sneak attack
7, your sneak attack goes up one
8 you learn the assassin's stance and get up to 4d6 sneak attack
9, daring outlaw boosts it another 2
10, one more sneak attack to get you to 7d6 sneak attack, BAB 8, plenty of skill points, DEX and INT to damage; DEX and INT to AC in light armor with a friendly DM; or if he wants to say it's only in no armor since it's replacing monk AC, the unfettered defense of invisible blade adding int to DEX up to invisible blade level should help a bit


Starts out a bit slower than your current build in terms of sneak attack, but ramps up quickly from levels 6-9. If the web version of invisible blade is no good, the open feat can go to the other invisible blade prereq.

Just thought I'd throw it out as a possibility.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-30, 12:12 PM
With 5 levels of Rogue I would have 3d6 SA. Adding Fighter alternate I get 1 BAB and 1d6 SA and +2 Fort while giving me even levels for more Swordsage maneuvers.

Why not Rogue -3, Fighting Alternate - 2, and either Assassin or Ninja or Spell Thief or Scout - 1 which basically provides Sneak Attack +5D6?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-30, 01:00 PM
Also, if you want SA, remember that it's prioritary to get the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape. Heck, I know quite a few skillmonkey lovers who bought the book solely for that feature (And Factotum, but those just rock and deserve having a book solely for them), because being useless against undead, plants, and constructs is annoying.

Were-Sandwich
2008-03-30, 01:40 PM
Maybe get that feat that lets you re-roll 1s on sneak attack damage? Might not sound like much, but the damage adds up over time.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-30, 01:42 PM
Nah, if you're going for that one, much better to get Craven. It gets to a point a red cloud charger gets envious if you TWF with it.

Curmudgeon
2008-03-31, 12:52 AM
Maybe get that feat that lets you re-roll 1s on sneak attack damage? Might not sound like much, but the damage adds up over time.
Nah, if you're going for that one, much better to get Craven. It gets to a point a red cloud charger gets envious if you TWF with it.
Azerian Kelimon is correct; Craven is a much better choice. You just need to do the math.

Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s, but only once. You'll get a 1 1/6th of the time, and the reroll will average 3.5, for a change of +2.5. So this is worth 2.5/6 = +0.42 on each sneak attack die. Rogues get a sneak die at every other level, so Deadly Precision is worth +0.21 points of damage on each sneak attack/level. Craven gives a straight +1 point of damage on each sneak attack/level, so it's 5 times better than Deadly Precision.

I wouldn't recommend Two-Weapon Fighting, though. The value for that feat is a poor return, and Rogues don't get enough feats to spend frivolously. Your calculation for TWF needs to figure in multiple costs:
-2 on every attack
reduced enhancements on both weapons because you have to split your money for weapon upgrades
poorer return on other feats (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical) if you use non-matching weapons
opportunity cost: loss of value of some other feat that you could have chosen instead of TWF
increased risk, because TWF forces you to go toe-to-toe with enemies despite mediocre hit points and armor
If you really do want to go the TWF route you should get matching finessable weapons with a high threat range (which pretty much means only kukris despite the poor base damage), double their threat range (Improved Critical, or keen twice), and take Telling Blow (PH2) to add sneak attack damage on any critical hit. If you're going to be making full attacks right next to enemies you need to take every option to get to add sneak attack damage so you can finish them off. Sometimes you won't have a flanking partner, or the foe will have Improved Uncanny Dodge so flanking won't work. Or you'll be invisible but (surprise!) you'll find the enemy has See Invisibility. In those cases you'll desperately need a third way to sneak attack, and Telling Blow will help you qualify 30% of the time. Because it's a percentage option it's only statistically dependable when you get lots of attacks -- and that's exactly what TWF with a full attack provides.

If you're really keen on getting multiple attacks in each round you could instead try unarmed fighting, because items will let you get good at that with minimal feat cost. A Monk's Belt gives you a base unarmed damage of 1d8 if you're medium size (and AC boost if you don't wear armor -- which is a decent tradeoff once light armor starts limiting your DEX bonus). Add a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) for the following benefits:
Improved Unarmed Strike feat
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat
CON damage on a critical hit with an unarmed strike
Improved Natural Attack bumps the unarmed damage from 1d8 to 2d6, so we're talking at least double the base damage of any other finessable weapon and 2.8 times as much as kukris. The only feat you need to buy now to get multiple attacks is Snap Kick (Tome of Battle). It works in a similar fashion to TWF for full attacks (one extra attack at full BAB, but all strikes take a -2 penalty) except Snap Kick can apply whenever you make any melee attack:
full attack
standard action attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as that from Improved Trip
touch attack to deliver a spell
While this option requires money (13,000 for the Monk's Belt and 10,000 for the Fanged Ring) you won't need to buy any magical weapons. And now you can get a much cheaper enhancement benefit with Magic Fang + Permanency from an NPC spellcaster for a long-duration (i.e., permanent until dispelled) +5 unarmed strike. You'll get multiple hits with +5 finessable weapons and the base damage of a greatsword -- all for about half the cost of a single +5 weapon enhancement. (Plus AC benefits if you have decent WIS, and the occasional bonus CON damage from any unarmed attack.) I think unarmed fighting is a pretty smart approach if you want a melee sneak attack character.