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View Full Version : Making grappling more intuitive and a bit simpler.



Kizara
2008-03-29, 10:35 PM
Everyone hates the grappling rules, even if they are pretty decent simulation-wise.

So, I had an idea to simplify matters.

Revised Grappling Rules:

Step 1) Move into melee range (with your natural weapons) and roll a grapple check. Doing so is an attack action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

The grapple check is your melee attack bonus (10+ BAB + strength) + your special size modifier + any grappling-specific modifiers you have (Impr. Grapple feat, etc).

This is opposed by your opponents grapple check, although they may elect to use their Dexterity modifier in lieu of their Strength modifier.

If you succeed, you deal damage as per the natural weapon you attacked with and are now grappling. This means you are flat-footed and have limited available actions.

Step 2) Grappling options:

All grappling options require a successful opposed grappling check to succeed.
1) You can attack with a light weapon as an attack action.
2) You can attack with a natural weapon as an attack action.
3) You may use special combat actions (such as flurry of blows or rend) that involve striking with or using natural weapons.
4) You may attempt to escape the grapple as a full-round action, this allows the use of your Dexterity modifier in the grapple check as per resisting a grapple.
5) You may stop grappling as a swift action (whether your opponent also stops is their decision).
6) You may attempt to pin your opponent as a full round action. If you succeed, you are no-longer considered flatfooted (but he still is) and your opponent is prone.
7) You may attempt a bull-rush against your opponent, gaining a bonus on your grapple check for any bonuses you have to bull-rushing. Your opponent gains a +4 circumstance bonus to resist your attempt.
8) You can attempt to disarm your opponent (including an item such as a pouch) as an attack action, gaining a bonus on your grapple check for any bonuses you have to disarming. Your opponent gains a +4 circumstance bonus to resist your attempt.


Yes, its still not short, but its more intuitive and straightforward. Basically, grappling= stuck fighting the other guy, you both are flatfooted and all attacks in a grapple are resolved with a grapple check.

sonofzeal
2008-03-29, 10:54 PM
Hrm. I'm not really sure what this is supposed to fix. It's slightly simpler (no initial touch attack, no penalty on attack rolls inside grapple, can full-attack), but not really any more elegant (you still change the rules inside a grapple, and you still need this weird and intimidating beast known as an Opposed Grapple Check). In addition, your changes seem to make Grappling more powerful - it's easier to initiate one, and you can do more damage inside it.

I don't know. I think Grappling could use a tweak, but I'm really not sure this is it.

Kizara
2008-03-29, 10:58 PM
Hrm. I'm not really sure what this is supposed to fix. It's slightly simpler (no initial touch attack, no penalty on attack rolls inside grapple, can full-attack), but not really any more elegant (you still change the rules inside a grapple, and you still need this weird and intimidating beast known as an Opposed Grapple Check). In addition, your changes seem to make Grappling more powerful - it's easier to initiate one, and you can do more damage inside it.

I don't know. I think Grappling could use a tweak, but I'm really not sure this is it.

I've cut down on the amount of 'special' actions. Or how some things are attack actions and some are grapple checks while grappling. Its a bit more streamlined. Yes, it uses the grapple check, but at least it consistantly uses it for everything, so its consistant.

What could I replace the opposed grapple check with? I mean, the special size mod is important. You can't simply make it a melee attack roll, cause WAY too many things can effect that.

sonofzeal
2008-03-29, 11:07 PM
I've cut down on the amount of 'special' actions. Or how some things are attack actions and some are grapple checks while grappling. Its a bit more streamlined. Yes, it uses the grapple check, but at least it consistantly uses it for everything, so its consistant.

What could I replace the opposed grapple check with? I mean, the special size mod is an important. You can't simply make it a melee attack roll, cause WAY too many things can effect that.
I'm not saying it should be replaced, just that in my experience Opposed Grapple Checks are the reason a lot of people avoid the whole mess. How do you feel about someone having a certain "Grapple AC", to remove the "Opposed" bit out of the equation?

Kizara
2008-03-29, 11:29 PM
I'm not saying it should be replaced, just that in my experience Opposed Grapple Checks are the reason a lot of people avoid the whole mess. How do you feel about someone having a certain "Grapple AC", to remove the "Opposed" bit out of the equation?

Well, couple problems with that:

1) It's another mechanic. Now we have a special grapple check AND a special grapple AC? That's the wrong direction. With the grapple checks, its the same thing by both people all the time.

2) It doesn't work or make much sense for actions/fighting inside the grapple.


As for making it more powerful: Good, screw wizards.

sonofzeal
2008-03-29, 11:38 PM
Well, couple problems with that:

1) It's another mechanic. Now we have a special grapple check AND a special grapple AC? That's the wrong direction. With the grapple checks, its the same thing by both people all the time.

2) It doesn't work or make much sense for actions/fighting inside the grapple.


As for making it more powerful: Good, screw wizards.
It's another mechanic, but it's less rolling. I mean, people roll saves vs DC, roll attacks vs AC, but virtually never roll opposed checks in combat except with Grapple (and Bull Rush, but in six years of playing I've seen that used exactly once). You have to admit, less rolling and adding would speed things up a bit. You're right that it makes less sense for actions in the grapple though.

As for screwing wizards... they won't care either way, unless you provide a way to block Freedom of Movement or Still Spell shenanigans. The only people getting screwed here are Rogues and other people who lack major magic and don't specialize in grapple.

Kizara
2008-03-30, 01:17 AM
It's another mechanic, but it's less rolling. I mean, people roll saves vs DC, roll attacks vs AC, but virtually never roll opposed checks in combat except with Grapple (and Bull Rush, but in six years of playing I've seen that used exactly once). You have to admit, less rolling and adding would speed things up a bit. You're right that it makes less sense for actions in the grapple though.

As for screwing wizards... they won't care either way, unless you provide a way to block Freedom of Movement or Still Spell shenanigans. The only people getting screwed here are Rogues and other people who lack major magic and don't specialize in grapple.

As for the Grapple AC, I thought about that when I wanted to still incorporate the initial melee touch attack but it would amount to a touch ac + things like Improved Grapple + special size mod vs the grapple check. Not only would that be unreasonable, but it would be overly complicated.

Also, the only ones really benefiting from it are monks, who should fare well with the new grapple rules anyways.



Rogues actually can sneak-attack in grapple now, so not so much.

And yes, my Freedom of Movement fix is thus:

Freedom of Movement grants a bonus equal to your caster level to resist grapple attempts and Escape Artist checks, instead of immunity. It still grants immunity to the listed magical effects.

As for Still Spell. If you happen to have something prepared Still, good for you! You still have to somehow not get ripped apart by the baddie full attacking you in a grapple.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-31, 05:38 AM
Hmm, broad generalizations. I don't hate the grappling rules. They are however open to improvement. Now to look this iver and perhaps provide some constructive critisicm, as opposed to nitpicking.


5) You may stop grappling as a swift action (whether your opponent also stops is their decision).

So, what happens if the opponent doesn't stop? Are you still in the grapple in that case?

Also, how do you simulate two people in a grapple fighting over a weapon, such as a knife or a pistol?

EDIt- or, for that matter, the Macguffin/plot coupon?

Kizara
2008-03-31, 01:59 PM
So, what happens if the opponent doesn't stop? Are you still in the grapple in that case?


Yes, you are. That action is only useful if your opponent doesn't want to grapple you anyways, and you simply push-off from him.
Otherwise, you use the "Escape the grapple" option.



Also, how do you simulate two people in a grapple fighting over a weapon, such as a knife or a pistol?

EDIt- or, for that matter, the Macguffin/plot coupon?

Yep, forgot to add a disarm option. Fixed.