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FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 10:42 PM
Yup, an entire thread based around the quickest and most effective means of reducing people into nothingness.

Method One: 4 castings of gate and a pair of collapsible rooms on different planes. When you move the walls with gate on them together with something in between, where does it go?

Method Two: Maze, and transdimensional dimension lock. Not sure when the becomes available, but try returning to the Prime Material when you're stuck in a vanishing demiplane.

Method Two anna half: Maze+Transdimensional Maze. You return from the second maze back to the first maze, except it doesn't exist anymore.

bugsysservant
2008-03-29, 10:52 PM
Hmmm, I like this. This is mostly speculation, because I'm not going to look up the exact rules right now, but if you cast dimensional lock on the contents of a bag of holding, then place a portable hole in there, I don't think the contents can go anywhere. The nondimensional space ceases to exist, but you can't travel to the astral plane, so you're kinda stuck. I'm probably wrong here, though.

Chronos
2008-03-29, 10:56 PM
Whence the notion that vestiges come from people reduced to nothingness? What I've read about them online seems to suggest that vestiges were once great heroes who were just too awesome for a normal afterlife.

That said,
Method One: 4 castings of gate and a pair of collapsible rooms on different planes. When you move the walls with gate on them together with something in between, where does it go?It goes the same place something goes in a collapsible room on only one plane. If it's strong enough, it stops the rooms from collapsing, and if it isn't, it gets squished.

And for method two, I *think* that the subject ends up stranded on the Astral Plane, same as something in a Bag of Holding that gets ruptured. It stays at the same planar coordinates as it was, due to the Dimension Lock, but those dimensional coordinates aren't set aside for the Maze any more, so it's left at that location on the Astral, which is the embedding space for all the others.

bugsysservant
2008-03-29, 11:00 PM
And for method two, I *think* that the subject ends up stranded on the Astral Plane, same as something in a Bag of Holding that gets ruptured. It stays at the same planar coordinates as it was, due to the Dimension Lock, but those dimensional coordinates aren't set aside for the Maze any more, so it's left at that location on the Astral, which is the embedding space for all the others.

But it's "extradimensional". Now, the rules don't really support this kind of argument, but my interpretation thereof is that they are therefore outside of dimensions. That would imply that it ends up outside the normal D&D planar cosmology: i.e. it becomes a vestige.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-29, 11:11 PM
Vestiges do not work that way!!!


Tome of Magic page 7 under The Methods of Pact Magic > Vestiges

A pact magic practitioner gains his power by bargaining with entities called vestiges - the remnants of once-living beings now trap beyond life or death. Whether they were mortal souls strong enough to shatter the cage built by death, wayward outsiders too willful to cease to exist, or dead deities unable to lie quietly in their astral graves, vestiges are outcasts of the cosmos.

It has nothing to do with going into nothingness, its all about cheating death, but not coming back to life.

mabriss lethe
2008-03-29, 11:14 PM
Whence the notion that vestiges come from people reduced to nothingness? What I've read about them online seems to suggest that vestiges were once great heroes who were just too awesome for a normal afterlife.

Technically they don't even exist. Vestiges are something of a paradox. Their personal histories are varied, there are forgotten gods among them, failed heralds of the apocalypse, mortals who transcended death, but not through immortality, and often by accident.

They're the faded echos of once powerful beings. They have no substance or power on their own. If there is an actual place where vestiges reside, it's so far removed from the material plane as to make travelling to the outermost realms of D&d cosmology look like a short trip to the corner store. by hosting one inside himself, a binder gains an echo of the powers the vestiges wielded in life in exchange for giving the vestige the opportunity to experience life again through the binder's eyes.

bugsysservant
2008-03-29, 11:18 PM
Vestiges do not work that way!!!



It has nothing to do with going into nothingness, its all about cheating death, but not coming back to life.

Actually, vestiges have such varied means of creation that they really only have one thing in common: they exist outside of the normal cosmology of D&D (including the far realms and whatnot in that). Therefore, it somewhat stands to reason that by sending someone to that nothingness, by exploiting rules loopholes, you can turn people into vestiges. Its not really RAW, but its fun nonetheless.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 11:29 PM
Vestiges do not work that way!!!
It has nothing to do with going into nothingness, its all about cheating death, but not coming back to life.

Sorry, El Tea. I'll be good in future. :smallredface:
Joking aside, I dispute that. If you don't die, but don't come back to life, where are you? If you're dead, you're somewhere. If you're alive, ditto. If neither, then what? And where does a person stranded in nothingess go/become? If not a vestige, then what?

But you must admit, it is fun. I'm not sure, you'll have to read the text of Maze and BoH. The main problem is where Mazespace comes from. I choose to believe that it's an extradimensional bit of space (not a part of the astral plane) that goes away when the spell is over, sweeping whatever's in there into the Prime Material

Chronos: The critter being squashed never touches the walls.The Gate spells mean one arm goes through the Gate, into the other plane, then through that gate, which brings it back into the same room. If the space between the walls-> zero, the creature and the space it inhabited no longer exist. So where is it? Logically, however, the creature presses up against itself, so the spell still doesn't work. Being crushed against yourself takes a bit of thinking about, but does make sense.

You could make an un-enterable box by making 6 castings of Gate into a box, so that whatever direction you approach the box, you go through into another dimension. So the box is forever unaccessible. If the gates stay in the same orientation, it's impossible to actually use any of these gates to get into that other plane. You've removed a part of the 1st plane, making it essentially into another plane. It's walled off and gone. Not related, sadly.

However, the Gate trick could work if you add a rope trick. Squash the rope trick entryway. wait for duration to expire. Or dimension lock, I guess. Useful spell for vestige creation, Dimension lock.

Collin152
2008-03-29, 11:32 PM
Given: Portable Hole creates extradimensional space.
Given: You are only thrown into the astral plane from the hole when incidents involving bags of holding are involved.
Hypothesis: Disjoin the hole from the inside. For extra effect, Dimension lock/anchor the hole from the outside.

UglyPanda
2008-03-29, 11:40 PM
Don't you still have to die to become a vestige? None of these methods explicitly kill you or do anything to your soul, they just send you someplace unreachable until you die. I don't think there are even rules concerning movement of souls who haven't become petitioners yet. How do we know souls don't have plane shift at will? I mean, it's not like they can get to Celestia by walking.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 11:42 PM
Given: Portable Hole creates extradimensional space.
Given: You are only thrown into the astral plane from the hole when incidents involving bags of holding are involved.
Hypothesis: Disjoin the hole from the inside. For extra effect, Dimension lock/anchor the hole from the outside.

Additional evidence: When you pop the thing, you don't just land on the astral plane. You are destroyed. Ergo, the BoH doesn't just exploit astral land space. It's another small plane.

Collin152
2008-03-29, 11:44 PM
Don't you still have to die to become a vestige? None of these methods explicitly kill you or do anything to your soul, they just send you someplace unreachable until you die. I don't think there are even rules concerning movement of souls who haven't become petitioners yet. How do we know souls don't have plane shift at will? I mean, it's not like they can get to Celestia by walking.

Think; If you get written off of the face of the universe, your soul and body still united, you are neither dead nor living. if your strong enough, you become a vestige. If not, you fade into nothingness.
Either way, though.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 11:47 PM
Don't you still have to die to become a vestige? None of these methods explicitly kill you or do anything to your soul, they just send you someplace unreachable until you die. I don't think there are even rules concerning movement of souls who haven't become petitioners yet. How do we know souls don't have plane shift at will? I mean, it's not like they can get to Celestia by walking.
Not necessarily. And souls drift to Celestia the same way bottles thrown into the sea get to Japan. Bottles can't swim.

DnD has explicit rules for death. Body decays, becomes rocks or trees or whatever. Soul goes off to muck about in the afterlife, might be reborn later. As far as we know, vestiges are outside this whole system. If you are also thrown out of this system, Occam's Razor says you become a vestige.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-29, 11:50 PM
I think I phased it a bit strong before...the first part was a joke, I couldn't resist. What I was trying to point out was that its not "becoming nothingness" that dictates if you become a vestige or not, its cheating death. And if becoming nothingness cheats death, well, your a vestige. Of course, it doesn't guarantee you'll ever be called upon by binders. In fact, my latest World Building Exercise (The Sundered Veil) involves a substance that destroys one's soul in such a way that that being becomes a vestige.

UglyPanda
2008-03-29, 11:51 PM
Living in D&D is simply having a soul (attached to/as) your body, everything else is just a racial ability.

Though if you concede that you still have to be fairly powerful to become a vestige, then the method doesn't really matter. All you have to do is get rejected from the heavens & hells and not get stuck on that freaky wall in Faerun.


Not necessarily. And souls drift to Celestia the same way bottles thrown into the sea get to Japan. Bottles can't swim.

DnD has explicit rules for death. Body decays, becomes rocks or trees or whatever. Soul goes off to muck about in the afterlife, might be reborn later. As far as we know, vestiges are outside this whole system. If you are also thrown out of this system, Occam's Razor says you become a vestige.
There still aren't explicit rules for what happens to a soul. There are rules for what happens to a corpse, but not a soul. There is nothing saying that your soul just doesn't muck about as a ghost on some plane that nobody will ever visit. Lost ghost is a much simpler explanation than vestige, but you're not even considering it.

FlyMolo
2008-03-29, 11:55 PM
Living in D&D is simply having a soul (attached to/as) your body, everything else is just a racial ability.

Though if you concede that you still have to be fairly powerful to become a vestige, then the method doesn't really matter. All you have to do is get rejected from the heavens & hells and not get stuck on that freaky wall in Faerun.

Not becoming a vestige because you aren't powerful enough and not being called on ever because as a vestige you suck are basically identical. Imagine a bob-the-commoner vestige. What would you grant? A bonus on Profession(farmer)? That's about it, really. The sign of Bob-the-commoner is the mysterious and eldritch....Brown clothing! Eeek!

Whereas someone awesome becoming a vestige...You might pact with them.

Collin152
2008-03-29, 11:57 PM
Living in D&D is simply having a soul (attached to/as) your body, everything else is just a racial ability.

Though if you concede that you still have to be fairly powerful to become a vestige, then the method doesn't really matter. All you have to do is get rejected from the heavens & hells and not get stuck on that freaky wall in Faerun.

A man so evil that hell itself spat him back out, eh?