Gestalt Question

[BG]

Here's the deal, I'm playing my first gestalt campaign in a few weeks, and I have a character idea, but I'm ending up with levels I don't know what to do with. Also, even though it will be a cheezy, over the top campaign, we still need to have storyline reasons for everything, which precludes various options (for instance, mechanics-wise, it would make sense to be a drow, but story-wise...not so much).

It'll be 13th level, and I'm going with an elf who will be a dex-based fighter/support character. I know on one side, I'll go the rogue 5/assassin 8 track. On the other, I will be doing hexblade for at least 3 levels so I can get meddle (having evasion and meddle should be nice). The problem is, I'm not a huge fan of hexblade, and I haven't really been able to find a class that works well beyond that. I don't know whether I should go with something else magical or for something will full BAB and better hit-die.

So, any suggestions? The character will be INT primary, with DEX close behind.

[Hario]

You can go Paladin or cleric and get the PrC in Complete Divine called Pious Templar which gets mettle at lvl 1. I forget what the requirements to get in, I don't think they are optimal but I doubt that really matters since its a better dip than 3 levels of hexblade.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Why not Favored Soul with Pious Templar for Mettle? Main requirement is +5 BAB since knowledge religion is now an option.

[weenie]

Well, you could take Duskblade on the other side. It's not a great support class really, but you'll get d8 HD, full BaB, some spellcasting and by lvl 13 you'll start kicking some serious butt in melee. But as I said, you won't be much of a support character anymore..

[Kizara]

1) Ranger 2/Hexblade 3/Fighter 2/Paladin (of freedom) 3

2) Cleric or Favored Soul X (cleric is assloads better then favored soul, fyi)

3) Duskblade is good as well, but is not a support class.

[BG]

I'll probably take a look at Duskblade. The Paladin options sound nice, but unfortunately, due to storyline reasons, the character is lawful evil (I should have mentioned that in the first post).

If I end up going hardcore melee, I won't really mind dropping some support stuff, so Duskblade might be good. This will also be the first dex-based melee fighter I'll be doing, any additional advice for that?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Consider plugging in the LE Paladin of Tyranny variant into the Prestige Paladin PRC:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

[Kizara]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68585

My old thread, discussing some good gestalt melee options. I got another one for a sorceror/dusblade vampire of mine. Search for threads started by Kizara.

[Charlie Kemek]

what books are we allowed?

take a 3 level dip in swashbuckler for int to damage, using financeable weapons, and weapon fineness as a bonus feat. you might want to take beguiler all the way instead of rogue, they get spellcasting like a like a warmage, except int based, schools from enchantment, illusion, and some others. also 6+int skills per level, trapfinding, and with light armor casting. PHbII.

[Annarrkkii]

Sadly, Hexblade is just not a very good class. However, Hexblade's Curse, perhaps even Greater Hexblade's Curse, coupled with Dark Companion from the PHB2 could actually be a reasonably synergy with your Death Attack—which is otherwise a similarly unimpressive ability. The only problem there is that the curse invites a Will save keyed off CHA

Overall, Rogue 5 / Assassin 8 // Hexblade 7 / Warblade 6 could be a reasonable build, really. Full BAB, d10 or d12 HD, decent base saves (Will from Hexblade, Reflex from Rogue/Assassin, Fort from Warblade), INT synergy between Warblade, Assassin, and Rogue, IL of 9 for 5th level maneuvers, and excellent skill points. Of course, that kind of array is dime-a-dozen in Gestalt, but it's solid nonetheless.

If you want to stress the assassin element a little more, trading out the Warblade for Swordsage costs you an average of 2 hp per HD for six levels, and drops your BAB to +11, but gets you more maneuvers and access to Shadow Hand moves. Assassin's Stance will bump your Sneak attack to +9d6, and several moves allow teleportation, invisibility, flat-footing, or concealment to get you access to that sneak attack and allow you to stay our of harm's way.

[Jack_Simth]

A few things to keep in mind in Gestalt when designing your character...

1) Be aware of power curves. At 1st, the Wizard is less than impressive. At 20th, a Wizard is very easily king of the roost. At 1st, the Fighter is very effective. At 20th, he's a baggage handler or a bodyguard (at least, sticking to Core). You want to have something to do at any level.
2) Look for active/passive combos. You've only got so many actions in a round. Generally, you'll want one side of your Gestalt to be passive (HP, saves, other defensive class features... including long-running spells; the stuff that doesn't take up an action in battle) and the other to be active (attacks, offensive spells, combat control spells... the stuff that does take up an action in battle).
3) Avoid class combinations that get in each other's way. Sure, a Fighter//Wizard looks good on paper, but with Arcane Spell Failure, you can't make effective use of the Fighter's Heavy Armor Proficiency. This isn't to say you have to totally avoid combinations where one class ability interferes with another - that Fighter//Wizard can do very well either focusing on spells without Somatic components in support of a role as a Fighter, or skipping out on actual armor in favor of simply being a very tough Wizard. Just don't try to do both at once.
4) Pick a role, and with it, a "primary" class, then pick a secondary class that gives you lots of stuff the primary class doesn't give you. For instance, you might want to be a Divine Caster. Okay - a Druid//Monk will do that very well. The Cleric gets lots of Divine Spellcasting, the Swordsage gives a lot of survivability (AC, saves, SR, and so on).
5) Avoid MAD. Sure, the Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but you've got two primary spellcasting abilities to raise. This will hurt you in the long run - especially on a point buy. A Druid//Monk, on the other hand, needs only Wisdom and Constitution - Wildshape provides Strength and Dex, so the character actually has less MAD than does the standard Monk.
6) Look for class synergy. Some classes work very, very well together. The Druid, for instance, gets to ignore strength and Dex after about level 5 or 6, due to the Wild Shape class feature. At that point, the Druid basically just needs Wisdom and Constitution. A Monk can take advantage of the Druid's Wisdom for AC, and while normally the Monk would have a bad case of MAD (needs Wis, Str, Dex, and Con), the Druid's Wildshape removes two of the stat requirements - which means the Druid//Monk will do very, very well.

For your specific case, I'd suggest something along the lines of a Beguiler//Ranger; Ranger gives d8 HD, full BAB, good Fort and Reflex saves, and your choice of Dex-based attacks (two-weapon or ranged); Beguiler gives Full Spellcasting, good Will saves, and lots of skill points. When you're done, you've got monk-perfect saves, full BAB, d8 HD, 6+Int skill points per level, full casting (Int based), light armor, and a fallback for when you can't use spells (fire away with arrows). Put PrC's and multiclassing on the Ranger side - you get Evasion at 9th, and you're playing at 13th, so you can drop a level or four into Devoted Defender, no problem, and have Evasion, Mettle, Trapfinding, and very good saves all around.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Evasion and Mettle are nifty abilities... assuming you can make your saves. If you can't, they're pretty much worthless. So, if you're trying to be 'Mr. NO', you will need to find some way to jack up your resistances. There are a number of ways to do this:

1) Monk has all three resists. You're even Lawful. However, throwing Monk into the mix really won't do well for you.

2) Warlock Invocation Dark One's Luck lets you add your Cha bonus to any given save. This is a good way to jack up a poor save, but requires a dip in Warlock, and is based on a stat which you don't have a whole lot in.

3) Paladin of Tyrrany. However, since your Charisma isnt' all that good, not a particularly good choice.

4) Warblade (ToB). There are maneuvers to make a Concentration check in place of a save. Since your skill in Concentration can be a whole heck of a lot better than your given save, it's an easy way to make a saving throw. Warblade also brings D12 HD and full BAB to the table, as well as some very rude offensive and defensive abilities to the table, and synergizes very well with Int mod to various things. If you are allowed to do it, get it. You can also get a feat called Clarion Call which lets you make an Intimidate check (Flat DC of 20) to declare an opponent flat-footed for a full minute. This means you can sneak attack away, even if he normally HAS Improved Uncanny Dodge (You're not trying to flank him, he is already in the state of being flanked, so you don't have to worry about it).

5) Swordsage (ToB). Also can get those same maneuvers. Gets monk AC (although it can be done in Light armor, so you can still run around in Mithral Chain Shirt and retain bonus), and there's a variant to get monk unarmed damage. They also get access to some very nasty stances that Warblades don't, like Island of Blades (better chance at flanking) and Assassin's Stance (increase sneak attack damage). They're more wis than int based, though.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Favored Soul has all good saves. 3 level dip into Prestige Paladin and plugging in the variant Paladin of Tyranny for 3 levels provides a lot with a single level dip into Pious Templar. A level dip into Marshal for a Motivate Aura (Charisma with Charisma) will do a lot for saves.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Favored Soul has all good saves. 3 level dip into Prestige Paladin and plugging in the variant Paladin of Tyranny for 3 levels provides a lot with a single level dip into Pious Templar. A level dip into Marshal for a Motivate Aura (Charisma with Charisma) will do a lot for saves.

Assuming you have any charisma in the first place...

He said he was focusing on Dex and Int, I was assuming his Charisma was 10, so he wouldn't be able to apply Cha to saves. Warblade/Swordsage use a class skill instead of a save, and have a lot of other fun things they can do for the build.

So, Hexblade3/Warblade 5.

Warblade gets Int mod to Reflex, which is going to be this build's achelies heel, and is going to be focused on, so we KNOW it's a solid stat, Int mod to add to crit confirms, and a bonus feat. Not to mention full BAB and D12 HD and some nasty maneuvers.

[Nebo_]

So, Hexblade3/Warblade 5.

Needs Moar Swashbuckler! Maybe on the other side...

[Dode]

I'd go with the Warblade's concentration-check replacements and use a Warblade//Factotum, or Warblade13//Factotum 5/Assassin 8 build. Int is the key skill for both class' abilities.

The Warblade adds his int bonus to reflex saves, crit confirms, special attacks (ie feint, trip, disarm), situational damage. It's basically a fighter, only more dexterity based then anything and far more versatile.

The Factotum spends from an encounter-based floating "inspiration point" pool to add his int bonus to AC, attack, damage, etc. They can also heal, find traps, use boatloads of skills (and for example spend a inspiration point to get +13 to climb/jump/swim, etc) and cast spells (very useful if you take a Reserve Feat), etc. The Factotum is the ultimate in versatility, but only for short durations. Good thing you have one of the best melee classes in the game to fall back on.

[Duke of URL]

Avoid MAD. Sure, the Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but you've got two primary spellcasting abilities to raise.

But Sorcerer//Favored Soul, on the other hand.... :smallbiggrin:

Or Wizard//Archivist (thought often banned for sheer cheese)

[DrizztFan24]

What about wizard//archivist? Archivist gets 3/4 BAB and screams out support character.

Otherwise I second the beguiler ranger, then choose undead as your favored enemy because anything wiht Intelligence is toast from the beguiler spellcasting. (incite riot on a group of drunken bugbears :smallamused:=too much fun)

Or you could choose abberations or something as they are always real pains to try and kill.

[Jack_Simth]

But Sorcerer//Favored Soul, on the other hand.... :smallbiggrin:

Or Wizard//Archivist (thought often banned for sheer cheese)
Right. Take two classes where their effectively required stats line up. So a Paladin//Favored Soul, Paladin//Sorcerer (play as a Sorcerer, ignoring Paladin armor proficiencies, or play as a Paladin wearing armor and taking Still Spell), Monk//Druid, and so on, make good classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, if you want to be a support character, I'd suggest going Sorcerer on one side and picking up a bunch of the 'buff this' spells. After 6th level, go War Weaver. Sure, you loose one spell level, but being able to cast buffs on the whole party without needing to splurge on the mass version is very nifty. Also, the 'hanging buffs' is awsometastic. For a move action, the whole party has a lot of lower level buff spells dumped on them. Then as your standard action, throw down Haste on your party, and they're seriously rocking and rolling.

Then, later on in your career, you grab Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell.

Here's the three spells you chain:

GMW (because it is explicitly prohibited to go into the weave)
Magic Vestments. Pick this up through using a Feat to get access to a domain.
Mind Blank (because it's too high level to go into a weave, pre-epic, and why you need a greater rod)

Do this at the beginning of every day.

Now everyone is immune to mind-affecting, cannot be the target of a divination, and has +5 of xyz gear. Rock on.

Skillmonkeys really don't do utility very well, unfortunately. Although you can pick up a couple of levels of Monk, then grab the feat Ascetic Mage to have sorcerer and monk levels stack for purposes of determining unarmed damage to keep Evaison. You'd loose 9th level spells if you do that plus War Weaver, but surprising someone with a 2d10 smack upside the head is always good for a chuckle... just before you give them the finger... of death.

[Nebo_]

What about wizard//archivist? Archivist gets 3/4 BAB and screams out support character.

Archivist is 1/2 BAB, IIRC. Not that it matters with Divine Power.

[CASTLEMIKE]

What about wizard//archivist? Archivist gets 3/4 BAB and screams out support character.



No the Archivist has Poor BAB just like the wizard (at least in my HoH book).

[Dode]

"I want a support fighter" gets typical "Wizard//Archivist FTW" response.

[CASTLEMIKE]

"I want a support fighter" gets typical "Wizard//Archivist FTW" response.

No I was responding to your post the Archivist does not get 3/4 BAB. +10/+5 (Poor BAB) is as good as it gets at L20 according to my Heroes of Horror source book and the Wizard's web article.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3

[Cuddly]

Sadly, Hexblade is just not a very good class. However, Hexblade's Curse, perhaps even Greater Hexblade's Curse, coupled with Dark Companion from the PHB2 could actually be a reasonably synergy with your Death Attack—which is otherwise a similarly unimpressive ability. The only problem there is that the curse invites a Will save keyed off CHA

Overall, Rogue 5 / Assassin 8 // Hexblade 7 / Warblade 6 could be a reasonable build, really. Full BAB, d10 or d12 HD, decent base saves (Will from Hexblade, Reflex from Rogue/Assassin, Fort from Warblade), INT synergy between Warblade, Assassin, and Rogue, IL of 9 for 5th level maneuvers, and excellent skill points. Of course, that kind of array is dime-a-dozen in Gestalt, but it's solid nonetheless.

If you want to stress the assassin element a little more, trading out the Warblade for Swordsage costs you an average of 2 hp per HD for six levels, and drops your BAB to +11, but gets you more maneuvers and access to Shadow Hand moves. Assassin's Stance will bump your Sneak attack to +9d6, and several moves allow teleportation, invisibility, flat-footing, or concealment to get you access to that sneak attack and allow you to stay our of harm's way.

I'd drop 3 levels off hexblade for paladin of tyranny. That way, you get an aura that gives enmeies around you -2 to saves and charisma to saves, again.

Assassin's Stance is cool, too. Swap out 3 levels of rogue for swashbuckler and pick up the daring outlaw feat. Your swashbuckler and rogue levels no stack for sneak attack dice. You pick up int to damage. With the shadow strike feat, you're now getting dex, int, and str to damage, as well as 9d6 and your weapon. If you pick up one more level of paladin for turning, you can get a feat that lets you use turn attempts to give you charisma to damage for a turn. Not worth it, imo.

[edit]
You could pick up some swordsage for Wis to AC while in light armor, then get the kung-fu genius feat which lets you instead get int to AC. Then go swashbuckler3/rogue2/assassin8//swordsage13, focusing on attacks that don't use saves, since your wis may not be all that great.

Getting greater invis for a round as a swift action can be really helpful for getting a full attack of sneak attack off.