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Talic
2008-03-31, 08:57 AM
First and foremost. This is not a thread to discuss the power and effectiveness of the monk. I want to make that PERFECTLY clear. Please, refrain from that subject.

I'm currently preparing to play in a rather meat-grinderesque game. The play level of the rest of the party is a bit sub par, and I thought this would be a good time to have a bit of fun with the monk class. I figure, even if I die, we all have backup characters made (and backups for the backups, did I mention, this is a real meat grinder?), so no loss, other than 20 minutes of play time or so.

The criteria I need to go by is thus:

1) Anti-grappling. First and foremost I want to be able to avoid a grapple. The nature of the enemy is such that grapple mods will be fairly good, and failing one = dead character. So my number one goal is Avoid Grapples.

2) Decent Fort save. There's a DC 16 fort save that's rather important to make, to stave off a bad and ugly death, if the critters get ahold of you (zombie variants). If I do get bitten, I want to be the guy that hides it for a week, before turning in the middle of the night, in the shelter. Heh.

3) A total of 1,000 gp may be spent on magic items. This is a DM restriction, not mine. Recommend good mundane items for a post-zombie holocaust.

4) Must be able to exist without caster support. Casters are being SEVERELY nerfed. So don't count on the party wizard dropping a wall of stone to cover our trail.

5) Majority of the campaign will be taking place in a ruined port city environment, so I'd like to have a safe way to get around safely. Skills, items, and creative ideas welcome.

6) I WILL BE GOOD. I will also be somewhat torn over the suffering of others. If someone's in trouble, I'm gonna be the fool that tries to save them. I need a couple quality plans to rescue others. Assume 1 other party member is of like mind, and the other 3 are more interested in staying alive (they will be).

7) Zombies have numbers. I want to be able to avoid the bad things that come from surrounded. Killing zombies is optional, but in saving people, I will likely need to be able to at least be able to manage a fighting retreat.

The like minded character is going to be a good-natured TWF Fighter. Decent AC, decent damage. The survivalist characters are another fighter, a ranger, and a rogue. The ranger has the heal skill, and is getting a wand of CLW with his dough. I want to chip in 100gp for this, if possible.

Character level is 6. Books allowed are Core and completes (including champion), along with Heroes of Battle.

Gimme some creative ideas, guys.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:00 AM
Close-Quarters Battle for your anti-grapply... Smack em if they try to grab you and add the damage to your grapple check. :)

Kurald Galain
2008-03-31, 09:04 AM
Are prestige classes allowed? To what approximate level (beyond its starting level of 6) is the campaign expected to advance? Is it acceptable to take, say, a level in fighter for the bonus feat?

(edit) Dude! DC 16 fort save at level 6, and you want to be able to reliably pass it? Ouch!

(edit again) What are your stats? Dice or point buy, and if the latter, how many points?

Shishnarfne
2008-03-31, 09:07 AM
I'm going to suggest trying to check the list of monk weapons for something that does slashing damage, if you've got zombie issues... Stunning Fist really isn't great against undead either...

For avoiding Grapples... perhaps ranks in Escape Artist (which you ought to be able to pump faster than your Grapple check) might be alright... Oh, and Hold the Line (IIRC, I think it's CW, but I'm not sure) Close-Quarters Fighting (thanks to the ninjas) is a feat that grants you an AoO against ANY Grapple Check and lets you add the damage dealt to your check. This might be handy.

If you expect to be facing large swarms of foes, while usually Whirlwind Attack isn't terribly great, it can be useful... and the Pre-reqs will tend to keep you out of Grapple Range (however, even if you're human, this will eat up a bunch of your feats).

The CLW wand is probably a must for someone in the party...

Boosting your Fort Save: Well, Con usually is a monk priority... along with Wis, Dex, and Str... Actually for your idea, I might prioritize Dex, Con, Wis, Str, in that order, but that's just me. Other than that, it's a feat (Great Fortitude), racial choice such as Dwarf or Halfling or Gnome (which will eliminate a human bonus feat), or all of your gp on a Cloak of Resistance +1... Unless you can multiclass between high Fort Save classes/PrCs...

Oh, but the game's a meatgrinder, so don't be surprised if one or more of you bites the dust... And it looks like the DM's got you headed for a tough road, so good luck!

Talic
2008-03-31, 09:22 AM
Point buy is 32. PrC's are allowed, campaign is expected to run to around level 12, DM predicts about a death per player per level.

They're not undead, persay (infected, read Max Brook's Zombie Survival Guide), but they are immune to most everything a vermin is, and a bit more. Including stunning. Splashing a level of fighter is cool, but not more than that. There's enough meatsticks in the party, I was hoping for a more skill monkeyish route, and that fighter 2 skill points and skill list kills me there.

As for the fort save... 70% success is ok. That's a +9 Fort.

Whirlwind attack is a full round action. I never want to stay in one place when fighting these things. Fight and move, hit and run.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:25 AM
Perhaps the cobra strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) style monk from UA? It changes your bonus feats to dodge, mobility and spring attack... and gives you a +2 to escape artist.

Thinker
2008-03-31, 09:27 AM
With that little wealth and a good character, I would actually support Vow of Poverty if it is available. You don't plan on fighting particularly mobile creatures and there is a lack of magic items anyway.

1. Escape Artist can be used to get out of a grapple.
2. You have good saves as is. This may be one of the few instances taking Great Fortitude is helpful. Before stat mods that gives you a +7 to fortitude at level 6.
3. See VoP comment above.
4. VoP helps with this, too.
5. The monk speed boost is about as good as you're going to get.
6. No comment.
7. Monks are good at running away. If you have a good strength you can carry someone as a light load.
Edit:

Character level is 6. Books allowed are Core and completes (including champion), along with Heroes of Battle.

Missed this bit. I'll edit my other parts later.

Talic
2008-03-31, 09:28 AM
Perhaps the cobra strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) style monk from UA? It changes your bonus feats to dodge, mobility and spring attack... and gives you a +2 to escape artist.

Looks nice, but unfortunately UA's not on the allowed list. Something about "flaw cheese".

Nor is BoED. The backstory's failing magic. We get full WBL, only 1,000 gp can be magical, though.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-31, 09:29 AM
As for the fort save... 70% success is ok. That's a +9 Fort.

Okay. I would definitely suggest fighter 1 / monk 5, then. With a Con 16 (which sounds quite reasonable) that's +9 fort without resorting to feats; +11 with great fortitude; +12 if you use a race with a con bonus.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:33 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot that UA isn't core (since I use d20srd.org as core.)

Hmm.

Let's see.

Level 1 - Improved Grapple, <Feat>
Level 2 - Combat Reflexes
Level 3 - Close Quarters Fighting
Level 6 - Improved Trip, <Feat>

I would definately recommend Wall Runner (Alternate class feature from Complete champion, replaced slow fall with the ability to run up walls).

Other recomended feats... Hmm. That's tough because there is a lot you want to do. Dodge and Mobility is a possibility to keep you mobile and up your ac while being mobile. You could even do Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack if you are human and take Dodge/Mobility at first level.

Hmm, Dodge/Mobility is also a pre-req for Dread Commando. A monk/Dread Commando would be interesting and get 3d6 sudden strike damage and team initiative bonuses.

Talic
2008-03-31, 09:33 AM
Okay. I would definitely suggest fighter 1 / monk 5, then. With a Con 16 (which sounds quite reasonable) that's +9 fort without resorting to feats; +11 with great fortitude; +12 if you use a race with a con bonus.

So: Human Fi1/Monk 5?

Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha 8

Human bonus feat Great fortitude. Also, Improved Grapple and close quarters fighting? (+4 to grapple, bonus to grapple = to damage from AoO?)

Adumbration
2008-03-31, 09:35 AM
Seriously, take VoP. With 1 000 gp at level 6, there's no real point in magic items. Take VoP, make use of those good Exalted feats. Taking that this is a post-apocalypse campaign, they will be very useful. Take a look at Nimbus of Light (or something like that) feat chain, and Stigmata. Stigmata lets you heal by taking con-damage and Nimbus of Light allows you to radiate light that damages undead.

EDIT: You can't have BoED? Aww, nevermind this post then.

Talic
2008-03-31, 09:37 AM
Allowed books does not include BoED.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:37 AM
So: Human Fi1/Monk 5?

Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha 8

Human bonus feat Great fortitude. Also, Improved Grapple and close quarters fighting? (+4 to grapple, bonus to grapple = to damage from AoO?)

Human - Great Fortitude
1 - Fighter - Dodge
1 - Mobility
2 - Monk - Improved Grapple
3 - Monk - Combat Reflexes
3 - Close Quarters Fighting
4
5
6 - Spring Attack

?

Talic
2008-03-31, 09:39 AM
Good feat base, I think. I'd give my right eye for evasive reflexes. Sigh, ToB spoiled me so.

Skills: I want climb and jump. Rooftops are better than roof bottoms. Other suggestions?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:42 AM
Hmm, well if you like rooftops, definately go for the Wall Runner alternate. Get to the rooftops faster.

Tumble would be good, since you mentioned staying mobile. Maybe Thief-Acrobat to aim for after a level up? Would get you the invaluable Kip-Up and some AC bonuses.

Adumbration
2008-03-31, 09:43 AM
Complete Champion - Fist of the Forest:

At first level, you get Fast Movement, Constitution bonus to AC and Feral Trance, that works like Rage except with different bonuses. One of the requirement feats is actually Great Fortitude, and the others are something you probably would get anyway (power attack, IUA, etc.) so this should suit you well.

EDIT: And it gets Climb and Jump as in-class skills.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 09:45 AM
Actually, you COULD do Fighter 1/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 1 and -start- with Con to AC.

And extra unarmed damage.

Draz74
2008-03-31, 10:22 AM
The hit to BAB is unfortunate, but you could consider a Psychic Warrior dip instead of Fighter. Still boosts your Fort save and gives you a bonus feat, but also lets you take Psionic feats (e.g. Speed of Thought or Up the Walls).

This is, of course, if the XPH is considered "Core," which, technically, it's not.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 10:26 AM
1) Fist of the Forest is probably a good bet, especially since you want to pump your Con for that Fort save.

2) In complete Mage there is a stunning fist variant, you get Nauseate instead, I may be wrong, but I think this even works on undead. Check it out, let me know if I'm wrong.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-31, 10:35 AM
As a monk, you have Grrrrrrreat damage when Magic weapons are not factored in. I'd look for ways to abuse that. Also, if you're lucky, Cwar has a feat that allows you to select the type of damage your unarmed attacks can do. Having Slashing if the zombies have resistance is pwnzorzizing.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 10:42 AM
Also consider the fact that with your 4 levels of monk, you may have a distinct advantage against the other players... your fists count as magic weapons.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 10:44 AM
As a monk, you have Grrrrrrreat damage when Magic weapons are not factored in. I'd look for ways to abuse that. Also, if you're lucky, Cwar has a feat that allows you to select the type of damage your unarmed attacks can do. Having Slashing if the zombies have resistance is pwnzorzizing.

Versatile Unarmed Strike. Probably very useful in this game.

Adumbration
2008-03-31, 10:47 AM
As a monk, you have Grrrrrrreat damage when Magic weapons are not factored in. I'd look for ways to abuse that. Also, if you're lucky, Cwar has a feat that allows you to select the type of damage your unarmed attacks can do. Having Slashing if the zombies have resistance is pwnzorzizing.

Are you sure it was in CWar? I couldn't find it, it seemed such a useful feat. I

If you are expecting larger enemies, Clever Wrestling might be good.

EDIT: Still can't find it, at least not in CWar...

On a completely irrelevant note, does Karmic Strike stack with Robilar's Gambit?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-31, 10:52 AM
Yeah, they do. Probably won't work, though, 'cause there's the risk of infection.

Maybe it's in the PHBII? If so, you should ask to see if you can squeeze that one feat in, and show it to the DM.

Aaah, it's in the PHBII. You can see it here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=4) If you need then whole thing, I can find it.

Darrin
2008-03-31, 11:27 AM
Looks nice, but unfortunately UA's not on the allowed list. Something about "flaw cheese".


Variant Monk fighting styles originally appeared in Dragon #310, so if UA is not allowed then check if your DM will allow the same material from Dragon magazine. Details can be found under the 3.5 base classes on Crystalkeep.

If you're looking for a decent monk slashing weapon, Pole Fighter and Unorthodox Flurry (also from Dragon, and reprinted in the Dragon Compendium) allow you to flurry with a polearm or light weapon.

Oh, and if you *really* want to stay out of grapple? Wild Monk, Dragon #324. Wildshape into something that can fly (Dire Hawk or Desmodu Hunting Bat), pick up Fly-By Attack as your level 6 feat, and maybe pick up Elusive Dance (Dragon #333) at level 3 to shut down AoOs from one target.

Nermy
2008-03-31, 11:59 AM
Are the infected either chaotic or evil at all? If so you can take the Prayerful Meditation ACF from Complete Champion to get a +2 bonus to saves against their effects.

Solo
2008-03-31, 12:01 PM
Do we have anyone on these boards who specializes in optimizing melee characters?

As far as I know, most optimizers here do casters, and SG optimizes UMD.

Can't think of an expert on melee characters for the life of me.

Pity, there should be a "go to" guy for melee characters.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 12:02 PM
Hey Talic, the nice thing about UA is that you can ban certain portions of it and not others (that actually work). Tell that to your DM. He can ban flaws without banning retraining.

Anyways, Close Quarters Combat (CW I believe) is the feat that Sam is talking about. Take it. And love it for your character.

stats: dex>con>wis>str>int>cha. This (along with the PrC I am going to mention) will lend to a decent fort save. You can get it to 16 dex, 14 con, 14 wis, 14 str, 12 int, 8 cha for optimal placement. Alternatively (since con and wis are to AC), 16 wis, 14 con, 14 str, 14 int, 12 dex and take Intuitive Attack (BoED) for wis to attack.

PrC: Fist of the Forest. Requires str 13 (Pw Attack), but is really worth it. and you can enter at level 6, so you'll have one level in it (that's from straight monk). Grants you con to AC and good fort and ref saves. Ask your DM if you can make an Extra Frenzy feat, granting three more frenzies per day (or allow Extra Rage to apply with frenzy as well). Also grants Uncanny Dodge and damage dice boosts (not more effective monk levels). After this, you'll really have to come up with more of a direction you want to take.

VoP is overpowered for you. Do not take it, unless the DM has said that WBL will resume shortly. In which case still do not take it because it will be sub-optimal. On a related note, do you still have the same amount of gp, and you are limited to only spending 1000 of it on magic? If so, slap your DM. Mundane costs nothing compared to magic. You guys might as well pool your money and buy a very large warship of some sort. It's not like you can do anything else productive with it after the 10 gp spent to get food for a year and 50 for shelters for everyone.

Tumble is a class skill... Easy to run away, especially with your high speed. Also, hide/MS and spot/listen are class skills, but only choose one of the set, since your int will not be high. Also, what races are available? If any, I have the perfect race: Raptoran (RotW). Flight as (ex) is awesome. And it can help you run away (the monk speed boost applies).

I just thought that with your character idea Shiba Protector (OA) would fit, and thus make a perfect dip (or continuation). In this case, take the second stat placement. Focus on wis first, con second, dex third, and strength fourth. You must be human. Go ahead and take VoNon-violence and VoPeace, since you don't want to kill any living thing. Take VoPov only if it would not be overpowered (not a low item campaign).

EDIT: I can be the monk go-to guy. I've done a LOT with them. Not melee though. I don't have ToB down. Or TWFers. Or really anything other than unarmed (I can bild them, but I'm not expert enough).

Telonius
2008-03-31, 12:38 PM
Human - Great Fortitude
1 - Fighter - Dodge
1 - Mobility
2 - Monk - Improved Grapple
3 - Monk - Combat Reflexes
3 - Close Quarters Fighting
4
5
6 - Spring Attack

?

Hm. With that 16 in Dex, that seems like a prime candidate for Weapon Finesse. Because he's a Monk, he gets hit with a lower BAB as it is. Not sure what I'd trade out for it, though. Is +3 to attack worth +2 to Fort saves?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 12:58 PM
Yes, Weapon Finesse and Versatile Unarmed Strike may be better than Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack

In fact. Weapon Finesse, Versatile Unarmed Strike and Power Attack are a better choice and let you qualify for Fist of the Forest.

{table]Level | Class | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat
1 | Fighter | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Great Fortitude
2 | Monk | +1 | +4 | +2 | +2 | Improved Grapple
3 | Monk | +2 | +5 | +3 | +3 | Combat Reflexes, Close Quarters Fighting
4 | Monk | +3 | +5 | +3 | +3 |
5 | Monk | +4 | +6 | +4 | +4 |
6 | Fist of the Forest | +4 | +8 | +6 | +4 | Versatile Unarmed Strike [/table]

+11 Fort save before you add in Con :)

32 Point Buy: STR 14 DEX 15 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8

Put the level 4 bump into Dex. Your ac will be 10+3 (dex)+3 (con) +2(wis) = 18. Not terrible for someone walking around naked!

Kurald Galain
2008-03-31, 02:12 PM
If you can spare the feat, you can also replace the fighter level with barbarian. This gives you more skills (plus it has survival as a class skill, so no problems there) and even more fast movement.

(edit) the way it's worded, I'm not completely sure the FOTF's con bonus to AC is intended to stack with the monk's wis bonus.

You are aware, I trust, of the Primal Living drawback to FOTF?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 03:41 PM
If you scroll down to the example character, the AC clearly shows both wis and con to AC... that's what I went by... :)

dman11235
2008-03-31, 04:19 PM
I'm pretty sure it says it stacks. If not, it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, that much is sure, and it is a different source for an untyped bonus.

Also, don't do Spring Attack. It's not worth it. You'll end up (even in this party) thinking: "why am I not contributing at all in combat?" Sure you might be that much harder to kill, but the rest of the party will be the only ones contributing in any significant way. And then the monsters won't attack you anyway so your strategy is lost.

Also, Kensai is a nice PrC for you, but I'd advise against it due to the low item setting (it will overpower you). And now I curse your lack of outside sources, because the Initiate of Pistis Sophia might be a nice one for you.

One more thing: instead of fighter do Psychic Warrior. Get Force Screen as a power known, and use your massive wisdom to make sure you get it in every battle. It's core sometimes! At least, it's SRD.

Now, for those stats, a +10 fort save is plenty. And you can buy a +1 vest of resistance if you really want to. So I'd advise s:14/c:14/d:16/i:12/w:14/c:8 base, for skills and attack. This'll lower your fort save by 1 (oh boohoo) and up your skills to 5/level, 6 if human. That lets you do those things you wanted to (climb, jump (don't need these if raptoran!), tumble, listen, spot) If raptoran, you can have hide/MS as well...

Eldariel
2008-03-31, 04:20 PM
Have you considered starting off with two-three levels of Barbarian before going for Monk? While you lose Rage due to alignment shift, you'd still get Pounce (makes teh Flurry of Blows more useful), good BAB, high Fort-save, Uncanny Dodge (the setting sounds as thus this could be quite useful; picking up some Prestige that grants second instance of Uncanny Dodge early would get you Improved Uncanny Dodge making you immune to flanking), and if you take the 3 levels, you can pick up Trapkiller, which gives you Trapfinding-abilities (based off Survival). To top it all off, a Barbarian has Survival as a class skill (a must in the setting if you ask me), which just happens to be keyed off Wisdom, and your desired 4 skills per level. Oh yeah, and it'd help your Fort-saves, giving you +6 - +7 base on level 6.

You'll probably want to be human anyways if you desire skill monkeyish role due to the fact that Monks are blessed with mere 4 skills per level. The feat is going to come in handy. I'd probably shy away from Great Fortitude anyways; 16 Con and +7 base save mean solid +10 Fort on level 6. Oh yeah, and don't forget Monk's immunity to disease coming up later (which'll be golden in this campaign). I don't have books handy so I don't remember the level though; it may be worth going straight Monk if you get it early enough.

I suggest you still ensure you can kick some ass even though it's a survival campaign, since the faster you kill the Zombies, the less time they have to infect you. But yea, I'd probably go Barbarian 2/Monk 4 or Barbarian 1/Monk 5; Pounce is just a godsent to a character who has incredible movement and wants to do full attack every turn. Since the Barbarian-levels are taken first, they're both, easy to weave into the story and devoid of alignment issues, and still allow you to advance Monk as per normal.

You may want to ask your DM if you could use UA on a case-by-case basis, since the book has many alternate rules that are very much fair and interesting; combat styles for Monk would be sweet indeed.


Fist of the Forest is a great idea, epitomizing what a Monk is good at while minimizing the weaknesses. Barbarian 1/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 1 sounds like another solid option. Either way, I'd definitely sneak the Barbarian 1 in there, and Barb has something to offer all the way up until level 3.


SamTheCleric: He's invisible!


EDIT: Well, Diamond Body is level 5, but the big question is if we're talking about a supernatural disease or not. If the Zombification is not magical, that's gonna be awesome, but otherwise it's gonna be completely useless like usual.

Also, Fist of the Forest has the unfortunate side effect of having only 2+Int skills. Still, it's probably worth it as it makes use of your Great Fortitude and gives you very quick damage increases and such.

Barbarian 1/Monk 4/Fist of the Forest 3 is ECL 8 with Improved Natural Attack would have a nice 3d6 damage die with the unarmed strikes, of which he could perform 3 per turn plus a bite in Feral Trance. Taking a second level of Barbarian at level 9 would get you Improved Uncanny Dodge too. Seems solid to me. On level 6, you'd have 2d8 damage provided that you take Improved Natural Attack, in two attacks at 4+3 (given 16 in the primary attack stat)-2=+5; not perfect, but not horrible. May be you'd need some kinds of boosts To Hit, such as Charge.

Talic
2008-03-31, 05:49 PM
Zombiefication is magical. It's a disease, but has a 50% chance to bypass disease immunity.

UA issue has been brought up. It's banned. Sigh.

Fist of the forest is ok, but I'd have to get power attack, which requires Str 13. What would I give up?

Also, Thief-Acrobat sounds good, thus far. Again, I'm not trying to optimize attack, as no matter how many we kill, there will be more. I'm more interested in keeping out of combat, getting out of combat, and getting others out of combat.

GoC
2008-03-31, 06:23 PM
UA issue has been brought up. It's banned. Sigh.
Yes but you said that it was banned due to flaws. Can't you explain to your DM that UA is a collection of separate variant rules and is meant to be taken on a case-by-case basis?

dman11235
2008-03-31, 06:26 PM
Check out the stat distribution I said in my last post. That one should suit you better. Who cares if it only has 14 con, it's a +1 difference, and you have Great Fortitude. At level 6 with barb 2/monk3/FotF1 you have a +12 fort save. That's a really nice fort save, you will not be failing any time soon. And so what if you're 2 skills/level down for three levels. It is easily made up by stats. And really you only have three you NEED, given your stipulations for climb and jump: climb, jump, and tumble. Survival is added due to the setting, and with 14 int that's all. You can put spare skill points into listen, spot, or hide/ms.

Cuddly
2008-03-31, 06:26 PM
If your DM runs it classic Romero zombie style, then your real enemies are other people, not the dead.

Stunning fist may be a good way to keep that freaked out survivor subdued.

Eldariel
2008-03-31, 06:33 PM
You could actually afford to drop some Dex probably. The easiest way to pick up Power Attack would again be a combat style from Dragon or UA (you don't need to meet prerequisites for combat style-feats), but if no parts of either are available, you'd probably be best going off with a Strength-based build rather than a Dex-based one. Note that Climb and Jump are both Strength-based skills, for what that's worth. Also, Strength is needed if you ever need to carry someone (which isn't always a bad idea since you're damn fast and can often outspeed others even in heavier load).

Of course, if you want to optimize your AC, it's definitely suboptimal to drop Dex and indeed, then you'll probably want the 5 levels of Monk (might as well take 6 while at it) for the AC bonus. You may even want 7 levels, since Wholeness of Body is extremely handy for staying alive in a campaign where magicless healing is unavailable. So yea, you could be either Strength-based avoiding combats better, or Dexterity-based avoiding blows more easily. Note that Monks can pump up a rather high Touch AC, so you can often avoid their Grapple-inducing Touch Attack in the first place if you go with the Dex-based build, but that's again on the premise that you end up in a combat in the first place.


Are the zombies considered Evil like Undead (empowered by negative energy) or Neutral like Vermins? If they're Evil, picking up Holy Strike (CC) instead of Ki Strike (Magic) would be efficient. If not, neither is gonna do you much good. Also, if they're Evil, Prayerful Meditation (CC) is gonna give you +2 to those disease saves. Again, if they're neutral, ignore this. Wholeness of Others is also an ACF you'd want to consider, but I can't find it in the allowed sources so bleh.

Diamond Body only protects you against mundane diseases, so this zombification would bypass it anyways.

Also, it doesn't sound like they'd just keep coming, and I'd assume you'd have to fight in many places so being able to beat some Zombie ass seems useful; I mean, you are preparing for being Grappled and Surrounded, so I'd assume you'd occasionally have to fight your way out too. I mean, Resident Evil was finished by killing the lone Zombies in your way and avoiding the big masses too ;)


Anyways, on 32 point buy, if I was to build such a char with Power Attack, I'd go:
S/D/Co/I/W/Ch
14/15/16/10/14/8 (rising Dex to 16 on level 4)

possibly dropping Dex 16 for Int 12 if you feel you need the 6th skillpoint per level, or going for increasing Str instead to get 'em out alive (by having an actual carrying capacity). Also, going for Wis 16/Dex 16/Con 14 isn't an impossible idea, since while it costs you bit in Fort-save, it makes it less likely that you'd have to roll one in the first place.

Talic
2008-03-31, 06:36 PM
If your DM runs it classic Romero zombie style, then your real enemies are other people, not the dead.

Stunning fist may be a good way to keep that freaked out survivor subdued.

The reason I want a good save, but not an autopass, is that if I get bitten, I want to hide it. I want to be one of those "other people".

Also, I believe that this will have a Romerian feel. Because us players will have a tendency to hole up, find somewhere safe, and the only 2 things that change that, are running out of supplies (water less likely, food more likely), and someone inside screwing up.

By wanting to save people, out of game, I'm trying to build a character that gives the DM NPC survivors to work with, as well as playing someone that will likely eventually cause a breach himself. This is because I'm pretty confident that we WILL be able to find a building, clear it, fortify it, and have supplies. Rather than being starved out of shelter, I want to give the DM options to move it.

I also think it's an archetypical role in a zombie movie, ("We can't just LEAVE them there! They'll die!") vs ("So? Better them than me!"), and I want to foster some party interaction.

Stunning Fist could be good for that, but, my anti-grapple ability should also be more than sufficient to restrain any ONE that gets out of hand. The upside is that it's also an effective way to keep a freaking NPC in check. Others, the players will have to deal with. Again, I'm cool if more than one goes over the edge and causes a defense breach. Keeps the story moving.

Annarrkkii
2008-03-31, 07:29 PM
Eldariel, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see no way to stack Barbarian and Monk. Chaotic Monks lose just about everything, and Lawful Barbarians DO lose everything. To the extent of my knowledge, which leaves a conflict.

Now, Fist of the Forest is a good plan. Once you have it, there's really no reason to pump your WIS—unless you're absolutely hell-bent on having a gnarly save DC for your stunning fist. As such, you can get away with some unusual Monk starting stats. This particular monk is going to be a grittier character, less given to meditation and contemplation and more given to beating the stuffing out of people.

As starting abilities, going on the 32-pt. buy mentioned earlier, I'd start with STR 13, DEX 16, CON 17, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 8, then use your 4th-level bump to take yourself to 18 CON.

Fighter 1 / Monk 4 / Fist of the Forest 1 seems to be where the consensus is heading, and it is an excellent build. These levels offer enough room to get both Holy Strike and Prayerful Meditation which, assuming these zombies are in fact evil in alignment, are both useful—the one to deal more damage, the other to resist their infection. You get your fists as magic weapons any way with Fist of the Forest 2. Monk offers +4 to Fort, +4 CON, +2 Fighter base, +2 Fist of the Forest, +2 Prayerful Meditation gives you +14. Tidy, on the whole, meaning you only fail the save vs. infection on a 1 or 2. It makes Great Fortitude unnecessary, really. Your AC will be 17 (+4 CON, +3 DEX), boosted to 19 when you enter your feral trance.

To swing this build while still maintaining all the skills you want (which are Tumble, Climb, and Jump, with Balance perhaps, for synergy, unless I'm mistaking), you're really going to have to be Human, since you'll also need 4 cross-class ranks in Survival and 4 ranks in Handle Animal, and your first level has to be in Fighter to avoid nullifying further Monk progression, which REALLY hits your skill points total. If UA were available, we could avoid these problems easily, but, sadly, it isn't... Your skills will have to look something like this in order to qualify and be effective (I've included feats to avoid having to make another list later):

1. Fighter 1: Jump +4, Handle Animal +4, Climb +2, Survival (cc) +1; Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse
2. Monk 1: J +1, C +3, S (cc) +1, Tumble +1; Improved Grapple
3. Monk 2: J +1, C +1, S (cc) +1, T +3; Versatile Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes
4. Monk 3: J +1, C +1, T +3, Balance +2
5. Monk 4: J +1, C +1, T +1, S (cc) +1, B +3
6. Fist of the Forest 1: whatever; Close-Quarters Fighting

Potential follow-up classes include the previously mentioned Thief Acrobat, as well as other oddball classes that fit the build's strengths—Reaping Mauler (more [counter]grappling) and Shadow Dancer (more mobility) come to mind as normally sub-par classes that, in this setting, might actually help out.

So... that's more thorough of a build than a usually post, but I suppose it warranted it.

Some other interesting possibilities for characters intended for slightly longer life spans include Paladin 3 / Monk 3 — followed by 3 levels of Hunter of the Dead (CWar). This build still gets Prayerful Meditation, as well as the ability to turn undead. You can lower CON slightly to up CHA—which goes straight to saves—and at 3rd level of Hunter of the Dead you get WIS to all your saves against undead. Otherwise, follow a similar feat selection. From thereon out take Sacred Fist, probably, since Monk is no longer advanceable, and you'll get similar benefits to monk levels, and full (Hunter of the Dead) casting. A more mobile character could work around Monk 5 / Thief Acrobat 1, or even Monk 4 / Swashbuckler 1 / Thief Acrobat 1—for slightly better BAB and saves and free Weapon Finesse. If you're feeling crazy, and you survive long enough, you could even carry that over by following up with Fist of the Forest, though your CON will likely have suffered a little from mild MAD.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 07:36 PM
Annarrkkii: You get your wisdom to AC as well. The Con to AC does not replace Wis to ac.

Also, a monk who stops being lawful retains all of his monk abilities, he just can no longer advance as a monk.

Eldariel
2008-03-31, 07:44 PM
Annarrkkii: You get your wisdom to AC as well. The Con to AC does not replace Wis to ac.

Also, a monk who stops being lawful retains all of his monk abilities, he just can no longer advance as a monk.

Also, a Barbarian who becomes Lawful only loses Rage. That was factored in; Barbarian also has an awesome skill list (including both, Handle Animal and Survival), Pounce (or Fast Movement), Uncanny Dodge and eventually Trapkiller if you happen to need to take the Trapfinder post (unlikely here).

If you really want to retain Barbarian's Rage too (it's only 1/day so it ain't much, but I suppose it helps if you're forced to fight, since you won't be actually grinding anyways), you could order the levels in the opposite way, but in this campaign, the 4 extra HP a Barbarian 1st would give you can actually be handy. Also, it allows you to keep relevant skills maxed more easily over the Monk-levels.

Ki Strike (Lesser Ghost Touch) would actually be nice if there're worse mutants than Zombies lurking nigh'. Of course, if Magic has failed, it may be that incorporeals have lost the ability to manifest and thus you won't have any trouble with such.


Also, high Wis is great for a number of handy skills like Survival, Spot, Listen and Sense Motive (probably a key to surviving with any NPCs you meet, especially if your first instinct is to save everyone; it's good to know which are going to backstab you later), and Will-saves (may be some similar disease rots your mind or some such).

dman11235
2008-03-31, 07:59 PM
Actually rage is 4/day at level 1 barbarian. Extra Rage. And by becoming C or N after taking all of your monk levels (or by doing away with those silly alignment restrictions) you can benefit from it. And if you can find that oh so elusive variant which adds to dex instead you're golden. But I can't remember where it is.

greenknight
2008-03-31, 08:11 PM
{table]Level | Class | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat
1 | Fighter | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Great Fortitude
2 | Monk | +1 | +4 | +2 | +2 | Improved Grapple
3 | Monk | +2 | +5 | +3 | +3 | Combat Reflexes, Close Quarters Fighting
4 | Monk | +3 | +5 | +3 | +3 |
5 | Monk | +4 | +6 | +4 | +4 |
6 | Fist of the Forest | +4 | +8 | +6 | +4 | Versatile Unarmed Strike [/table]

You can't take Close Quarters Fighting at level 3, since it requires a BAB of 3+. Also, Versatile Unarmed Strike comes from PHBII, so it might not be allowed. Even if it is, it's better overall to take Close Quarters Fighting instead. And while Fist of the Forest is a great PrC, it does have a number of issues for this campaign. Not being able to sleep indoors is a big disadvantage, and what happens if the character manages to survive beyond 9th level? As far as I can tell, once you go FotF, you can't go back to Monk. If the DM allows that and relaxes the restriction on sleeping indoors, then this PrC might be a good choice but otherwise I don't think it will work out.

Here's what I suggest:

{table]Level | Class | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat(s)/Class Abilities
1 | Ranger | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy
2 | Ranger | +2 | +3 | +3 | +0 | Combat Style (Two Weapon)
3 | Monk | +2 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deadly Defence (Complete Scoundrel)
4 | Monk | +3 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Combat Reflexes, Evasion
5 | Monk | +4 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Still Mind
6 | Monk | +5 | +7 | +7 | +4 | Close Quarters Fighting [/table]

Race: Human
Ability Scores: Str 15; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 14; Cha 8

In terms of skills, starting with Ranger gives you more skills than starting with Monk, and many of the Ranger's skills are on the Monk list, so there's a lot of synergy. You also have Survival as a class skill, which might be important in this campaign to provide food.

The build also does a lot for your anti-grapple idea. Combat Expertise allows you to have a Dodge Bonus of up to +5, which applies against a grapple. Combat Reflexes allows you to make three AoO's (with this character's Dex) per round. Close Quarters Fighting ensures that you will get an AoO against them, provided you have one left. If you deal any damage at all with that AoO, the grapple fails (it's one of the rules of grappling). The Monk class also has Escape Artist as a class skill, which you can fall back on if all else fails, but that's really a last resort.

If your foes have the normal Zombie DR of 5/slashing, use a Kama (or two) as your main weapon. Find out what type of creature these are (undead, vermin or whatever) and make that your Favored Enemy. Always fight defensively (Combat Expertise) taking at least 2 from your attack roll. That will allow you to do an extra 1d6 damage per hit thanks to Deadly Defense. Later on look into getting Favored Power Attack from Complete Warrior. It will really boost your damage potential against your Favored Enemy type, although it works best if they have a relatively low AC (like Zombies...).

In terms of equipment, the 1,000gp limit really restricts what will be available. As a Ranger, several Wands are available to you, and a Wand of Entangle is almost a must have. Alarm might allow you a little extra security, and Embrace the Wild (Complete Adventurer) is also a good idea if your DM allows it. You could probably put a few of the more powerful spells into scrolls and potions and still be under the limit too. Bracers of Armor +1 and a Cloak of Resistance +1 are both just within the 1,000gp per item limit, so you should get both of those.

Eldariel
2008-03-31, 08:14 PM
Actually rage is 4/day at level 1 barbarian. Extra Rage. And by becoming C or N after taking all of your monk levels (or by doing away with those silly alignment restrictions) you can benefit from it. And if you can find that oh so elusive variant which adds to dex instead you're golden. But I can't remember where it is.

Yes, but he's not combat focused, so spending feats just to max out more combats per day seems silly. I'd first go with Improved Natural Attack, et al. Ferocity is in Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), btw, and thus not available.

Also, Extra Rage only gives you two extra uses, so it'd be 3/day. The Feral Trance would of course be a 4th though, but it can be used while in Rage so it's not the same. I wonder if Extra Rage could be applied to Feral Trance... Seems logical since it specifies 'Rage or Frenzy', and it's pretty much a Frenzy-like ability.


EDIT: Greenknight, Combat Expertise has Int prerequisite of 13. Also, if you take Ranger-levels, the item is clear:
Wand of Lesser Vigor (or Cure Light Wounds if Lesser Vigor isn't printed in any other place than Spell Compendium)

Without MiC, even Healing Belt isn't available, so getting some survivability with 1000 is tough.

greenknight
2008-03-31, 08:23 PM
EDIT: Greenknight, Combat Expertise has Int prerequisite of 13. Also, if you take Ranger-levels, the item is clear:
Wand of Lesser Vigor (or Cure Light Wounds if Lesser Vigor isn't printed in any other place than Spell Compendium)

You're right. I originally had Int 14, Dex 12 but changed it during the build process. I've editted my post to meet the requirements.

Lesser Vigor isn't available to Rangers, and CLW is a 2nd level spell, so it won't fit the GP allowance. I did consider both though, because normally they are great choices.

EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, it may be better to go with Archery style rather than TWF. The extra speed of a Monk means ranged attacking becomes more viable, and that's another way to stay out of a grapple. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-03-31, 08:35 PM
Well, bugger me that, I always lived under the assumption that Lesser Vigor was Ranger's go-to spell; I don't see a single reason not to, it's got the Wilds-flavour and it's a Druid-spell and all.

Anyways, Cure Light Wounds it is then. Ranger doesn't need to get a wand of RANGER Cure Light Wounds, it's enough that it's a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. He can use it as long as the spell appears on his list, so just get a normal Wand and you're set.

pup3k
2008-03-31, 09:09 PM
I must ask. Is Secrets of Sarlona at all possible? Because Tashalatora is a godsend. That one feat changes monks and psionics completely. But more monks than psionics.

But assuming you can't, a one level dip in PsyWar is still a good option if Fist of the Forest isn't allowed. And, might I suggest instead of going for Inertial Armor (even though it is a fantastic power) instead go for expansion. It helps with the grapples and improves your unarmed strike by one die size.

holywhippet
2008-03-31, 10:00 PM
What about taking your first 3 levels as a paladin? That gives you immunity to all forms of disease (including supernatural) ones and also helps with your fortitude save. In fact it helps on all saves if you've got a charisma bonus.

Talic
2008-03-31, 11:52 PM
Issue of UA being seperate rules was already brought up and shot down. He doesn't like UA.

Also, there was a comment made about enough splatbooks to make a good character as is, don't need any more.

Sigh. Oh, and no psionics handbook. Complete psionic is actually not being used because it's based of Expanded Psionic, which isn't allowed. One character is trying to work that one. It may be put in.

I'm liking the fist of the forest idea so far. I also like the ranger synergy with Monk on skills.

I don't like the Barb/Monk combo. I def want to maintain a monk feel. No Barb.

As for contributing? My philosophy are the people that "contribute" most will be the people that die the most. These things are gonna determine targets not by threat, but by proximity.

The zombies are a template, applied to any living corporeal creature. They keep their type, gain a homebrew subtype, change to wizard BAB progression, lose all non racial HD and bonuses, and double racial HD. Get bonuses to STR, penalties to DEX, slam attacks, bite, grapple bonuses (but no imp grapple) and the like. Fort 11 is the ideal I want. They're vulnerable to crits and precision damage (head damage kills them, called shots allowed at a -6 to hit). 10 is the minimum. Yes, the campaign has been going for a bit. This is the character I need for the next session.

What this means is that animals, like dogs, will actually INCREASE their BAB, as their BAB goes to half, but HD double. I really don't want to see a zombie hydra or ooze. Bad stuff there.

EDIT: Disease is specifically ruled to bypass any immunity, even things like Pally ability, 50% of the time.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 12:01 AM
Well, gaining miss chances is one of the reasons wizards are so hard to hit, why can't the principle be applied to diseases?

You could also look into Forest Reeve (right after FotF) for some more nature stuff, but it doesn't seem to fit you too well. I'd suggest Initiate of Draconic Mysteries, but it's Draconomicon.

You could see if there is a ranger alternate that grants something different than TWF or archery. Or you may be stuck with a bunch of monk levels. Shouldn't be bad though considering the lack of high power necessary. Especially after FotF maxed out. I'm racking my brain for another good PrC for you, but every time I think of one it's in a banned book. Base classes too (besides ranger, the combat style thing doesn't help).

Talic
2008-04-01, 12:19 AM
Well, gaining miss chances is one of the reasons wizards are so hard to hit, why can't the principle be applied to diseases?

You could also look into Forest Reeve (right after FotF) for some more nature stuff, but it doesn't seem to fit you too well. I'd suggest Initiate of Draconic Mysteries, but it's Draconomicon.

You could see if there is a ranger alternate that grants something different than TWF or archery. Or you may be stuck with a bunch of monk levels. Shouldn't be bad though considering the lack of high power necessary. Especially after FotF maxed out. I'm racking my brain for another good PrC for you, but every time I think of one it's in a banned book. Base classes too (besides ranger, the combat style thing doesn't help).


Finishing out monk is... unlikely, as the campaign isn't designed to go to 20. Still, in the incredibly unlikely event it does, I wanna finish monk. Tribute to my roots, and all. I'm debating sling use, for ease of ammunition, and ranger ranged weapon synergy. Survival might be less than useful in a city environment. We'll see.

As for disease miss chance, if I get hit with disease, I don't want the immunity. I'll take my lumps and go down (I mean, if I wanted immunity, I'd go Dwarf paladin 1/ranger 1/monk 1/Fighter 2/ Fort PrC 1 with a +5 con modifier for a +16 to fort. If the feat that says you don't fail fort saves on a 1 is legal (can't remember the source), add that for immunity.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-01, 05:16 AM
I'm liking the fist of the forest idea so far. I also like the ranger synergy with Monk on skills.

I think you can do both, i.e. ranger 2 / monk 3 / FOTF 1.

greenknight
2008-04-01, 06:01 AM
I think you can do both, i.e. ranger 2 / monk 3 / FOTF 1.

It can be done, although as I explained the reason I avoided it was because of the Primal Living requirement and the inability to go back to the Monk class afterwards. If that's not a problem, then the following build should work:

{table]Level | Class | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat(s)/Class Abilities
1 | Ranger | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy
2 | Fighter | +2 | +4 | +2 | +0 | Bonus Feat (Great Fortitude)
3 | Monk | +2 | +6 | +4 | +2 | Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deadly Defence (Complete Scoundrel)
4 | Monk | +3 | +7 | +5 | +3 | Combat Reflexes, Evasion
5 | Monk | +4 | +7 | +5 | +3 | Still Mind
6 | FotF | +5 | +9 | +7 | +3 | Close Quarters Fighting [/table]

Race: Human
Ability Scores: Str 15 (increased to 16 at 4th level); Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 14; Cha 8

Instead of 2 Ranger levels I gave it one Ranger and one Fighter level so that I could add a Feat. Because I added a Fighter level and the Great Fortitude feat, the final Fort save will be +13. The build will have a few less skill points to play with because of the Fighter and FotF levels, but it's still quite workable (it only loses 6 skill points compared to the previous version). It also loses the Ranger Combat Style, but that wasn't all that useful anyway.

I should also mention that there's no reason why this character couldn't walk around with a Masterwork Guisarme (or other non-exotic reach weapon of choice). If the enemies try to rush in, you get AoOs against them through Combat Reflexes. If they close in cautiously, you one round where you can hit them without retailiation and then you can just ignore your held weapon and start hitting them with unarmed attacks.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-01, 07:18 AM
I agree with the person above who pointed out that Fists of the Forest -can't- sleep indoors. If they do, they lose all of their abilities for a month. I'm thinking being indoors at night would be a good idea for a romero-esque nightmare. (even though I was the one pushing for the class in the beginning :) )

Chronicled
2008-04-01, 07:21 AM
I agree with the person above who pointed out that Fists of the Forest -can't- sleep indoors. If they do, they lose all of their abilities for a month. I'm thinking being indoors at night would be a good idea for a romero-esque nightmare. (even though I was the one pushing for the class in the beginning :) )

Can you sleep on the roof?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-01, 07:23 AM
I don't have the book with me here at work, but I believe it just says you can't sleep inside a building... I may be wrong. :smalleek:

greenknight
2008-04-01, 07:46 AM
I don't have the book with me here at work, but I believe it just says you can't sleep inside a building... I may be wrong. :smalleek:

The requirements are that you must sleep in natural environments and never purchase food. You can sleep indoors if you are forced to by circumstances, but if you have an option you shouldn't or you risk losing your class features. Sleeping on a roof probably wouldn't count as a natural environment though.

Iku Rex
2008-04-01, 07:51 AM
I'd go with Monk4/Fighter2

Fighter gets you bonus feats, better BAB, better Fort save and weapon (reach weapon, composite longbow) and armor proficiencies (mithral breastplate).

32 pb

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 9

+1 Dex at level 4

Get a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and Deft Opportunist (CAdv). Throw in Cleave for good measure. They'll be dropping like flies. If the zombies have low HPs Power Attack might let you one-shot them. Combat Expertise can be handy as well - with armor, shield, fight defensively and +5 Combat Expertise you should be able to avoid damage except on a natural 20. Good for heroic rear guard action. Look at Domain Devotion feats (CCha) like Animal (Hawk) Devotion and Fire Devotion for a touch of magic.

Not sure where to go from this. More fighter levels maybe. Or rogue, for skills and sneak attack. I was going to suggest Sun Devotion and the Shadowstriker PrC (CCha), but since the zombies aren't undead there's not much point. Kensai (CWar) is an option I suppose.

Tactics: You'll have slow fall and probably a good tumble skill - make zombies follow you out a window. Fire also works, if you're not worried about setting fire to the entire town. You can afford lots of alchemist fire. Of course, the best way to kill zombies is from a distance.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-01, 07:54 AM
Get a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and Deft Opportunist (CAdv).

Doesn't that pretty much defeat the point of playing a monk?

Iku Rex
2008-04-01, 08:18 AM
Doesn't that pretty much defeat the point of playing a monk?Not at all. He gets Combat Reflexes as a bonus monk feat, and monks are good with reach weapons because of their ability to make unarmed strikes even with their hands full.

(Historically, the naginata [reach weapon] was the "weapon most often associated with" warrior monks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sōhei#Weapons_and_dress) in Japan.)

Funkyodor
2008-04-01, 09:22 AM
Don't know much about build advice, but if the DM lets you load up on Alchemical Items, then Complete Adventurer's got alot. When in doubt, light something on fire.

Plenty of Alchemist's Fire.
Clay Jugs of lamp oil (better to toss one breakable container with enough oil to cover 8 squares).
Tanglefoot Bags
Marbles/Caltrops
Whip for grabbing enemies and pulling them off... *More on this later
Silk Rope, pre-knotted with grappling hook (so others can have an easier time climbing up where you jump/up wall thing to)
Thunderstones for use with whatever alarm system you want to envision.

*For your magic item allotment, you might get alot of milage out of a Whip feather token. Having a dancing Whip with a +10 attack bonus and free grapple check per round sounds neat for emergency rescue.

And don't forget a trained dog, not for war but for carrying junk (Plus as an emergency food source, yum!). Because as a Monk, you have to keep your load light. Either that or load up your junk on a higher strength Fighter type.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 03:05 PM
Actually, it does defeat the purpose of being a monk, just not for those reasons. The armor part is what defeats it. What part of "unarmed and unarmored" doesn't make sense? For that you might as well just play a warblade or fighter/barbarian or something else. Sure Combat Reflexes is a monk bonus feat...it's also a fighter bonus feat.

As for FotF: you can sleep in a barn or on a roof with no penalty. Heck, in a recent campaign my DM let me make my own room have no roof over it and a pond and grassy area and trees. Worked for him, it was natural enough (I didn't water the plants at all, they were sustained from natural rain and soil). I miss that character, he died when a tree sapped him of all his con, I started with a +12 fort save and 18 con, level 5. It was beautiful. To bad I rolled a '1' on my fort save.

I do recommend getting a reach weapon though. Preferably a monk weapon reach weapon, that way you can flurry. Zombies usually have low AC (And I assume these will too?) so the penalty won't be bad. You can keep them at bay with the reach weapon and then use your USs if they get close. Won't do as much damage as your US, but will get the job done.

I'll be looking for a better PrC for you here in a bit. It may take a while, cause I've got other things to do, but before the night is up.

mabriss lethe
2008-04-01, 05:15 PM
Brainstorming:

-How does your DM feel about domain feats from C. Champ? a devout monk tinged with the last vestiges of his god's temporal power. some of them are pretty nice (depending on how wonked out the homebrew magic system is, a level or two of cleric to give you access to more domain feat uses via turn attempts might be a good call.)

-Are SLAs and Supernatural abilities affected to the same degree as spellcasting? warlock might be an alright choice for a dip.

-since these beasties are supposed to be vulnerable to crits and precision damage, a dip into rogue would be a good choice. lots of skills, sneak, etc. all useful in an urban zombie crawl of this sort. You could flavor it as either a monk with a sordid past or to represent the skills he's recently acquired that have allowed him to survive post apocalypse.

-PrCing a level or two of tattooed monk might come in handy to gain access to abilities you might not be able to nab otherwise. (or earlier) I don't have C War, so I don't quite know how they changed it from the OA version.

I dunno, I'm just rambling right now.

Iku Rex
2008-04-01, 10:39 PM
Actually, it does defeat the purpose of being a monk, just not for those reasons. The armor part is what defeats it. What part of "unarmed and unarmored" doesn't make sense? For that you might as well just play a warblade or fighter/barbarian or something else. Sure Combat Reflexes is a monk bonus feat...it's also a fighter bonus feat."Unarmored" doesn't make sense when you're being chased by zombies and need to survive. No rule says monks can't wear armor. They just lose a few abilities. If he really needs Flurry of Misses or (more likely) Fast Movement he can always take his armor off.

It also fits with the archetypical warrior monk. From the Wikipedia link above: "Many warrior monks would wear some form of samurai armor".

And yes, you could get Combat Reflexes from fighter. You wouldn't get monk skills, monk saves, slow fall, unarmed strike and Improved Grapple.


I do recommend getting a reach weapon though. Preferably a monk weapon reach weapon, that way you can flurry. There are no monk reach weapons that I know of and none of the books available have feats to change that.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-02, 02:40 AM
A monk build? Looks like I could help...:smallamused:

Currently only have the core rules around, so here's a suggestion built on that...

Human monk 6th level, lawful good
32 point-buy
STR 18 (13 point buy, 1 stat gain), DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 13, CHR 8
FEATS: Unarmed strike, Imrpoved unarmed strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip (monk bonus feats). Exotic Weapon Proficiency-Spiked Chain (human bonus feat; alternatively get a reach tripping weapon like the halberd, overcoming any zombies DR and with higher damage- no problem for a monk since you can still attack adjacent foes with umared strike), Dodge, mobility, spring attack.
SKILLS (all with masterwork items): Move Silently +13 (9 ranks), Hide +13 (9 ranks), Listen +11 (8 ranks), Spot +12 (9 ranks), Tumble +11 (5 ranks), Jump +21 (5 ranks)
ITEMS: masterwork boots (Move Silently), Cloak (Hide), Glasses and ear set, very archaic-looking (spot/listen), leg wraps (jump), arm wraps (tumble). Magic item: pearl of power* (1st level spell, courtesy lord_khaine; either use it to get enlarge or other spell from your prepared spell casters, or simply hand it to them flexibly for any spell in need by the group, if they have difficulty recovering spells. For instance, another hide from undead could mean a lot). Also (if available), several masterwork spiked chains, 50 masterwork shuriken, masterwork crossbow (light). Holy Water, Alchemical Fire, Tanglefoot bags all as made available by DM. Also get PLENTY of caltrops. With your high move, with a 4x move you can cover a 200ft line in one round (note that dropping caltrops is a free action). Entire streets can be blocked by a monk this way).
(Dodge) AC: 15 (DEX, WIS, monk, dodge), 18 when fighting defensively, 22 vs AoO (mobility)
Hit Points: 43 (max 1st level, CON +12)
Initiative: +2 (DEX)
Grapple/Trip: +12/+8 (*in case somewhere in the companion books quoted like complete warrior there is an item that grants bonuses to strength checks, that might be preferred. Note that also the 2nd level spell heroism adds a bonus of +2 to the trip check.).
Attacks: Spiked Chain +9 (2d4+6 damage), unarmed strike flurry +7/+7 (1d8+4), shuriken flurry +6/+6 (1d2+4), crossbow +7 (1d8)
Move: 50ft
Carrying capacity: 100 pounds for light load maximum.
Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +7, Will +6 (+8 vs enchantment)

Now let us see how this build fares on Talic's seven requirements.



1) Anti-grappling. First and foremost I want to be able to avoid a grapple. The nature of the enemy is such that grapple mods will be fairly good, and failing one = dead character. So my number one goal is Avoid Grapples.

Basically, you have 6 lines of defense vs getting zombification.
1st line: your high spot and listen and move should mean you'll rarely get cornered by the zombies. Or be even surprised by them. ("brains.....")
2nd line: combat reflexes, AoO, spiked chain reach and improved trip.
Simply trip up to 3 zombies closing in on you. With enlarge, get a +12 modifier to the check (but then only max 2 AoO due to lower DEX). Something tells me the zombies have not tumbling maxed out...:smallsmile:
Another bonus: you can also do these AoO while flat-footed (in case you really roll low on initiative or did not notice the zombies approaching)
3rd line: your touch AC is quite high (in particular fighting defensively).
4th line: any zombie that got through now actually has to defeat your grapple check (+12 normal, +17 enlarged). Quite unlikely.
5th line: your fort save +7 could save your neck vs the zombification as could...
6th line: your disease immunity which was mentioned somewhere as meaning 50% immunity in this case.
Yes, I guess the monk is going to survive for quite long.


2) Decent Fort save. There's a DC 16 fort save that's rather important to make, to stave off a bad and ugly death, if the critters get ahold of you (zombie variants). If I do get bitten, I want to be the guy that hides it for a week, before turning in the middle of the night, in the shelter. Heh.

Fort +7 means you are more likely to save than not. And your hide skill could be applied to cover up being bitten...(although more likely that should be a disguise check). You may, though, try to hide completely from your group maintaining "you're just hiding to scout". You'll still talk to them, but they will not see you. Quite eerie development...:smallamused:
Better yet, your high spot check guarantees that the others will have a hard time hiding from YOU that they have been zombified...:smallbiggrin:


3) A total of 1,000 gp may be spent on magic items. This is a DM restriction, not mine. Recommend good mundane items for a post-zombie holocaust.

Done! (see items above)


4) Must be able to exist without caster support. Casters are being SEVERELY nerfed. So don't count on the party wizard dropping a wall of stone to cover our trail.

The pearl of power actually can SUPPORT casters rather than the other way round. Apart from this, you already have good touch AC, great grapple, good combat mods, are faster than the zombies and have good saves. The casters should rather buff the others.


5) Majority of the campaign will be taking place in a ruined port city environment, so I'd like to have a safe way to get around safely. Skills, items, and creative ideas welcome.

Your jump skill of +21 means that you are at around Olympic medalist level. Further more, you can fall safely up to 30ft from ruined houses (immediately, it basically is ON TOP of your move!). And you can fall even further, thanks to your tumble skill.
Your climb mod is +4 (+6 with good equipment), but probably with this build you will move around the ruined houses like the modern urban acrobats from Paris or Russia....
Plus, you have plenty of corners to turn around for hiding. Your move silently speed is 25ft, also likely faster than the zombies.
Basically, since your STR is also so high, you make an excellent choice to be the one to get equipment, supplies etc. from that store over there...


6) I WILL BE GOOD. I will also be somewhat torn over the suffering of others. If someone's in trouble, I'm gonna be the fool that tries to save them. I need a couple quality plans to rescue others. Assume 1 other party member is of like mind, and the other 3 are more interested in staying alive (they will be).

Lawful good (check). Now this is where spring attack comes in.
Situation: crying child surrounded by zombies. You run there, grab the child, then move out again. All in one round. Normally, with a grapple you could not do that (the move in a grapple alone is a standard action that needs you to be in a grapple to start with). But the child will likely not put up resistance, so your spring attack should work.
Your STR 18 also means you should be able to save this way a child or up to a damsel in distress without movement penalties...


7) Zombies have numbers. I want to be able to avoid the bad things that come from surrounded. Killing zombies is optional, but in saving people, I will likely need to be able to at least be able to manage a fighting retreat.

With the improved trip build up there, which can down 4 zombies per round via trip, that should be possible (in particular since you can "open corridors" in the zombie attack where the people can flee through).


The like minded character is going to be a good-natured TWF Fighter. Decent AC, decent damage. The survivalist characters are another fighter, a ranger, and a rogue. The ranger has the heal skill, and is getting a wand of CLW with his dough. I want to chip in 100gp for this, if possible.

Well, consider whether the group would rather benefit from the wand or the pearl of power. If the ranger is the ONLY spellcaster in the group, give him all your money for more CLW or entangle wands (or better yet, an alarm spell wand to get that needed hours of sleep....:smallsmile: )
HOWEVER, what use would CLW have, anyhow? If the zombies hit you, you're likely to become one of them anyhow...ah...likely depends on the saves.

Hope that helped

- Giacomo

EDIT/PS: in case someone wondered: there are too few magic items in this campaign to make the Giamonk a viable choice :smalltongue:

Talic
2008-04-02, 02:55 AM
First. No casters in the group, pearl of power will be dead weight.

Second, build assumes standing and fighting. Something I do NOT intend to do.

Third, I intend to use monk weapons only, trying to capture a feel.

Fourth, Fort save too low. Disease is not curable. You make a DC 16 fort save every day. Any day you fail is 2d6 wis drain, 2d6 int drain. 0 in either = you become a zombie in 1d4 rounds. This is a special case scenario. 55% success will not cut it. Minimum I want is +11. Max, +12.

Fifth, base human zombies are +9 to grapple. Horse? +18-20. To calculate Grapple check, take creature's base racial HD, add Str mod+2, add size mod, add 4 more. +17 is acceptable as a defense, but I like the idea of close quarters fighting. gives me damage and grapple defense.

Checked, Fist of the forest is out, so, as is, I'm looking at a TWF flurry capable Ranger 2/Monk 4. Ideas for future PRC's?

P.S. Marbles, sounds like a great idea, most of these zombies seem to be stupid, with crap for balance. One of the earlier characters held a doorway for a minute or so with a grease spell. That's it.

EDIT: Oh, and zombies aren't quiet. that's an advantage, at least. Anyone keeping watch is effective. Zombies moan loudly when they sense prey. Alarm wand also dead weight.

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 03:03 AM
Double post.

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 03:29 AM
I've only read this page of the thread, so forgive me if any of this doesn't apply.

The Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona is a special monk weapon that has reach of 5' and 10'. If you're not planning on standing and fighting, then that coupled with Stand Still will stop them from closing in and will give you time to attack, then withdraw; ready for them to advance again. A one level dip into Exotic Weapon master will give you 2x strength to damage if you wield it in two hands.

Hope that helps.

dman11235
2008-04-02, 06:45 AM
Doesn't help Nebo_, no SoS.

Talic: you know that you need another weapon besides unarmed strike to use TWF, right? As long as you know that, you're fine. And I know there is in some book a monk weapon with reach. There has to be. And I'm sure one in the Completes exists.

Well, I haven't found anything, but maybe with your new TWF outlook I might be able to find something. It really is a shame there is no BoED, it would be perfect for this one.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 06:55 AM
You may, though, try to hide completely from your group maintaining "you're just hiding to scout". You'll still talk to them, but they will not see you. Quite eerie development...:smallamused:

Hide does not work that way. You need cover or concealment to hide. You won't have it. Unless you are shouting at them from far away, around a corner or in a shop. Hide/=Standing near someone and not being seen.

Seriously, read the Shadowdancer PrC. Realize that the ability it offers gives you the thing you think everyone has.

dman11235
2008-04-02, 07:29 AM
Not true Chosen. Though right about the first part, Shadowdancer allows you to hide while being observed (not possible without it), but only within 10' of a shadow. This DOES allow you to be right in front of someone without them seeing you.

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 07:40 AM
Doesn't help Nebo_, no SoS

The underscore is silent.

Well, a long spear could still work, just not as well.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 07:49 AM
What about going Monk/Ranger until you qaulify for Sacred Fist? Would increase your spellcasting and your monk abilities. Especially if you took the Ascetic Hunter feat to stack your monk/ranger abilities further.

I believe Monk 2/Ranger 4 can qualify for it (since that's when you get your spellcasting)

EDIT: Erm, that may not be a great idea. The feats required go against what you're goin for... Combat Casting and Stunning Fist... lose out on that Improved Grapple if you take stunning fist.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 08:12 AM
Not true Chosen. Though right about the first part, Shadowdancer allows you to hide while being observed (not possible without it), but only within 10' of a shadow. This DOES allow you to be right in front of someone without them seeing you.

And what part is not true exactly? I'm referring to any non-Shadowdancer character, since Gia seems to believe that you can be hidden while standing right next to someone.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-02, 01:24 PM
And what part is not true exactly? I'm referring to any non-Shadowdancer character, since Gia seems to believe that you can be hidden while standing right next to someone.

You can stay hidden next to someone when there is concealment (say a dark corner of the room), or no line of sight (say, behind a wardrobe).
Now, if the afflicted monk is talking at the same time, very likely you will be able to pinpoint the monk standing next to you (as in adjacent 5ft square). But you still have concealment.
The only thing that shadowdancer does is provide you with hide in plain sight.

On to Talic's questions...


First. No casters in the group, pearl of power will be dead weight.

OK, then give your money to the ranger for maximum wand usage, that would beat giving him back one of his 1st level spells per day. Or get a cloak of resistance +1 (aren't there also cheaper items giving more bonus to just one save in the books you mentioned? I am not sure).


Second, build assumes standing and fighting. Something I do NOT intend to do.

That build COULD do standing and fighting. But most of the time, this monk would be moving around like crazy, doing AoO as a crusting on the cake. In the optimum case, this monk would be able to move 50ft and do 4 (!) attacks to the surrounding zombies. Definitely no standing and fighting.


Third, I intend to use monk weapons only, trying to capture a feel.

Hmmm. I thought always a spiked chain very "monkish" (only that it is such a good weapon that all core classes have to spend an extra feat on to get).
Would halberd be OK fluffwise? As in crouching tiger, hidden dragon? The spiked chain has the advantage that you can reasonably carry a spare one (or two).
The improved trip is simply too good to pass up for ultimate zombie defense imo.


Fourth, Fort save too low. Disease is not curable. You make a DC 16 fort save every day. Any day you fail is 2d6 wis drain, 2d6 int drain. 0 in either = you become a zombie in 1d4 rounds. This is a special case scenario. 55% success will not cut it. Minimum I want is +11. Max, +12.

Hmmm. Could be done. For a minimum of +11 you'll need the great fortitude feat (would get the fort save in this build up to +9), cloak of resistance (would get it above up to +10), and maybe a dwarf as race (getting it up to +11, +13 if the zombie disease is considered something spell-like).
This would mean no spring attack feat line (due to one feat less), and maybe get rid of listen as skill if the zombies moan all the time, anyhow (spot taking over completely for your senses). And/or move silently or hide, depending on what kind of senses the zombies mostly are triggered by.

Plus, the above lines of defense have shown that it will be quite unlikely that a zombie will get close enough to trigger that 55% chance (double that again thanks to the disease immunity of the monk).


Fifth, base human zombies are +9 to grapple. Horse? +18-20. To calculate Grapple check, take creature's base racial HD, add Str mod+2, add size mod, add 4 more. +17 is acceptable as a defense, but I like the idea of close quarters fighting. gives me damage and grapple defense.

Close quarters fighting is also a good idea (combined with combat reflexes), only that you AoO are triggered when the zombies are 5ft from you, not 10 ft (which would keep them more at bay with improved trip). Still, with a feat left over in a dwarf monk variant of my above build (say, halberd martial weapon proficiency, great fortitude and close quarter fighting), close quarters figthing can fit in on top.


Checked, Fist of the forest is out, so, as is, I'm looking at a TWF flurry capable Ranger 2/Monk 4. Ideas for future PRC's?

Hmm. Sacred fist maybe? (progressing ranger casting). Shadowdancer? Would not plan so far ahead...:smallwink:
And btw, if you really do not wish to intend no "standing and fighting", then you should not specialise in a character that shines in full attack only. So ranger is not a good choice (or get a missile-specialising ranger, but that would lose the "monk feel", except if you took it for the shuriken attacks).


EDIT: Oh, and zombies aren't quiet. that's an advantage, at least. Anyone keeping watch is effective. Zombies moan loudly when they sense prey. Alarm wand also dead weight.

OK. Listen skill could still be of use, because then you could probably hear the zombies coming from 100s of feet away (providing the group more time to flee).

- Giacomo

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 01:30 PM
Giacomo... did you read the rest of the posts? Everything you've suggested in that last post has been brought up... :smallbiggrin:

There are even builds and feat stacks that include Great Fortitude and Close Quarters Fighting explicitly. :smallcool:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 01:41 PM
You can stay hidden next to someone when there is concealment (say a dark corner of the room), or no line of sight (say, behind a wardrobe).
Now, if the afflicted monk is talking at the same time, very likely you will be able to pinpoint the monk standing next to you (as in adjacent 5ft square). But you still have concealment.
The only thing that shadowdancer does is provide you with hide in plain sight.

I am well aware what Shadowdancer provides, unlike you I don't think Monk 1 provides the same benefit.

If you are standing in the same room as someone there are two possibilities:

1) It is pitch black. In this case you have total concealment and so do they, no need for any hide checks.

2) They have a light source. In this situation you have no concealment, and they can see you just fine. You can't make a hide check.

There is no way to stand next to someone without them seeing you.

Iku Rex
2008-04-02, 01:45 PM
Halberd is not a reach weapon.

Close-Quarters Fighting is of little use as the zombies don't have Improved Grapple or improved grab. He just has to hit on the AoO. Deft Opportunist FTW.

Funkyodor
2008-04-02, 03:16 PM
To but into the Gia-Vecna debate, If the opponent did not know the player was there, and there was somewhere to hide that provided Concealment (a shadow, a floor lamp, a bedframe) then he would have rolled his hide versus the enemies spot. The moment that the player takes an attack action, he is no longer hidden and does not have the ability to rehide in a shadow/bush/other area of concealment because of enemy observation unless he has the HIPS ability. The neat Ninja Smoke Bomb trick can be simulated in D&D with a smoke stick. Action to throw the smoke stick 2 squares in front. Total concealment from 2 squares of smoke. MS/HS to where ever you want to go as long as there is unbroken concealment/cover (even into the smoke if you wish).

A Move Silently check to "sneak up on someone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks)" and then hide in a shadow next to him because he doesn't know the player is there. Needs a big Hide / MS skill, but possible even if you don't have HIPS.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 03:37 PM
To but into the Gia-Vecna debate

Suffice it to say I disagree about the sneaking up thing, thanks to D&Ds lack of facing, but on the Gia-Vecna debate:

I like the sound of it, mostly because when I see Gia I pronounce it Gaia/Gaea in my head. And life verses (Un)death sounds like a fun battle.

Talic
2008-04-02, 03:56 PM
I don't know of a legal monk reach weapon, I suspect there isn't one. Thus reach is out.

I'm NOT trying to go for 3-4 attacks on zombies a round. Are you a zombie buff? DM is. Watch a few zombie movies. The streets are thick with em. And I mean THICK. If a defense is breached, there is one possible solution. Run. Fighting ability is useful in keeping leading zombies back, but, as I see it, against if I have to hold a door for a round to give everyone a chance to get up and get out, I have to defend against 2 grapples. First zombie moves up to grapple, gets stopped, falls back to hallway. 2nd zombie moves in, provokes an attack, gets stopped, ends movement in friend's square, they both fall down. Zombbie roadblock.Afterwords, I have to fall back, granted, but I'd plan on it anyway. Escape routes are usually up (we tried a sewer once... shudder), and to rooftops.

To give you an idea of how holocaust this is, we ran into survivors at the beginning. About 30. 12 are still alive. Other than that, the only time we encounter survivors are when new PC's need to be introduced.

dman11235
2008-04-02, 04:00 PM
How on earth is the halberd not a reach weapon??? Have you seen them? houserule that right now. If not, use a guisarme.

greenknight
2008-04-02, 08:21 PM
One of the more interesting PrC choices this character could make would be Kensai (CW). You'd probably want to go with Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Monk 4 to qualify and pick up Weapon Focus (Unarmed) rather than Great Fortitude. That will give you d10 for hit dice, 4+Int/Lvl skills (although most of the class skills aren't that great) and the ability to turn your unarmed attacks into magical weapons. You can also boost your Strength by 8 for a short time, multiple times per day (2-3 times per day being the probable practical limit). And unlike most PrCs, this one allows you to go back to Monk afterwards.

On the downside, Will is the only good Class save (although from 5th level, you can substitute your Concentration skill for most Reflex saves), and you only have 3/4 BAB progression.

dman11235
2008-04-02, 08:47 PM
Already been covered Greenknight, it's not a good idea: overpowering considering the wealth issue. And doesn't really fit.

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 10:27 PM
(Dodge) AC: 15 (DEX, WIS, monk, dodge), 18 when fighting defensively, 22 vs AoO (mobility)

This AC isn't very good for a 6th level character. A 1st level Fighter can get that with 12 Dex and Scale Mail.

dman11235
2008-04-02, 10:34 PM
And I can get it without any armor: 16 dex 14 wis. Add in the level of FotF and 14 con and you have AC 17, all touch (14 FF). But alas you are not using FotF, so AC 15 (without dodge) is what you will have. Also, that was from a while ago Nebo_ (yes, I will still use the _, because you told me not too:smalltongue:. btw, it's your SN, so I feel justified. Will not use it in the future though).

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 11:27 PM
And I can get it without any armor: 16 dex 14 wis. Add in the level of FotF and 14 con and you have AC 17, all touch (14 FF). But alas you are not using FotF, so AC 15 (without dodge) is what you will have. Also, that was from a while ago Nebo_ (yes, I will still use the _, because you told me not too:smalltongue:. btw, it's your SN, so I feel justified. Will not use it in the future though).

That's exactly my point. It's very, very easy to get a better AC than that.

ladditude
2008-04-03, 12:07 AM
Savage Species has a survivor class. How sad this is core only. D12 hit die and full saves but no BAB...

Honestly, Giacomo's build is better than the two-weapon/flurry build. Both TWF and Flurry require full attack actions. Most of Giacomo's attacks happen in the zombies' rounds via AoO. You would certainly need to modify it a bit, but I agree with what most of he said. Is the infection air born, or is it only upon being struck that you get it? Because then the 9 or 10 fort save is nearly as bad as it may seem all other things considered.

Nebo_
2008-04-03, 12:18 AM
Honestly, Giacomo's build is better than the two-weapon/flurry build. Both TWF and Flurry require full attack actions. Most of Giacomo's attacks happen in the zombies' rounds via AoO. You would certainly need to modify it a bit, but I agree with what most of he said. Is the infection air born, or is it only upon being struck that you get it? Because then the 9 or 10 fort save is nearly as bad as it may seem all other things considered.

The spiked chain is a good weapon, and the tactics that go with it are also quite good. I don't agree that monk is the best class to make use of it, though.

ladditude
2008-04-03, 12:20 AM
Yeah, but he wants to be a Monk, so, the Monk can still do it.

Edit: And....



Fifth, base human zombies are +9 to grapple. Horse? +18-20. To calculate Grapple check, take creature's base racial HD, add Str mod+2, add size mod, add 4 more. +17 is acceptable as a defense, but I like the idea of close quarters fighting. gives me damage and grapple defense.


Horses have a +18-20 because they have 4 legs. Unless I misunderstood what you were trying to say, comparing a zombie's trip to a horse's is apples to oranges.

Liadel
2008-04-03, 05:02 PM
The Close-Quarters Fighting is irrelevant in this case because the zombies do not have Improved Grapple, and therefore already provoke attacks of opportunity.

It also specifies in PH "If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails."

__________________________________________________ _

I worked with two different options, the RGR 2 / MNK 4 and a MNK 6. The RGR/MNK turned out as follows:

Stats:
STR: 13 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 8

Grapple:
10 = 5(base) + 1(str) +4(feat)
AC:
16 = 10(base) + 3(dex) + 3(wis)
FORT:
12 = 7(base) + 2(mod) + 3(feat & cloak)

Skills: (Mod + Ranks + Misc)
Balance 9 = 3 + 4 + 2
Climb 10 = 1 + 9 + 0
Hide 12 = 3 + 9 + 0
Jump 13 = 1 + 10 + 2
Move Silently 12 = 3 + 9 + 0
Tumble 14 = 3 + 9 + 2
Use Rope 8 = 3 + 5 + 0

Attacks: (name, attack, damage, crit)
- Strike, unarmed +6 1d8+1 20/x2
- Kama (masterwork) +6 1d6+1 20/x2 (Dual +4/4, Flurry +4/4, Both +2/2/2)
- Longbow comp.(mwk)+9 1d8+1 20/x3 110 ft.

Feats:
*Improved Grapple (Bonus Mnk)
Great Fortitude
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Finesse

Items:
Cloak of Resistance +1
Marbles (mentioned before in forum)
Oil & alchemists fire
Silk rope and grappling hook
Arrows
________________

The MNK 6 turned out as follows:

Stats:
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 15 CHA: 8

Trip:
11 = 5(base) + 2(dex) + 4(feat)
AC:
16 = 10(base) + 3(dex) + 3(wis)
FORT:
11 = 5(base) + 3(mod) + 3(feat & cloak)

Skills: (Mod + Ranks + Misc)
Balance 14 = 3 + 9 + 2
Climb 10 = 1 + 9 + 0
Jump 13 = 1 + 9 + 2
Move Silently 12 = 3 + 9 + 0
Tumble 14 = 3 + 9 + 2

Attacks: (name, attack, damage, crit)
- Strike, unarmed +6 1d8+1 20/x2
- Kama (masterwork) +6 1d6+1 20/x2
- Shuriken(masterwork) +6 1d2+1 20/x2 10 ft.

Feats:
*Improved Trip (Bonus Monk)
Great Fortitude
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Finesse

Items:
Cloak of Resistance +1
Marbles (mentioned before in forum)
Oil & alchemists fire
Silk rope and grappling hook

With the pure MNK, I looked at how to avoid Grapple, and their are three main ways. First is with the opening attack of opportunity, second with a high AC, and third with a high grapple check. The AC is not going to happen for the monk, so that leaves AoO or grapple. With the grapple mod, as seen above, there's only a +10 to oppose the zombie's +9.

The attack of opportunity seems the best option then. First option is to deal any damage, and stop the grapple. Second option is a trip attempt as was discussed briefly earlier. The trip attempt can be done as an AoO, and is a melee touch attack with the Kama. +1 to strength for the strength check isn't ideal, but the Improved Trip feat increases the check to +5. The prone enemy will hamper the movements of the other zombies and will need to use their action to stand again on their next turn.

Hope any or all of this will help! Sounds like an interesting campaign.

hylian chozo
2008-04-03, 07:00 PM
Top ten lessons for surviving a zombie attack

1. Organize before they rise!
2. They feel no fear, why should you?
3. Use your head: cut off theirs.
4. Blades don't need reloading.
5. Ideal protection = tight clothes, short hair.
6. Get up the staircase, then destroy it.
7. Get out of the car, get onto the bike
8. Keep moving, keep low, keep quiet, keep alert!
9. No place is safe, only safer.
10. The zombie may be gone, but the threat lives on.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. The zombie survival guide by Max Brooks. Great book.

Annarrkkii
2008-04-03, 07:33 PM
Fist of the Forest is out? Just like that? That's a bummer.

Well, a Ranger 2 / Monk 4 is pretty solid. If you go human, you've got a bit of a feat surplus to work with, as far as essential feats go, so you might be able to burn a feat on Dodge and grab Reaping Mauler 1 will get you the Mobility feat you need to take Shadowdancer at level 8. Ranger 2 / Monk 4 / Reaping Mauler 1 / Shadowdancer 1 is a pretty decent 8-level, survival-oriented progression. If your DM is as tight as he seems, though, he probably won't be interested in letting you dip around like that. In that case, Ranger 2 / Monk 4 / Shadowdancer 1 works almost as well, though it requires the unimpressive waste of feats of Dodge and Mobility both. It does leave off Clever Wrestling, though, which is probably a good thing.

Heck, after further consideration, Rogue 1 / Monk 4 / Shadowdancer 1 is even a reasonable option, with a few more skill points to spare. The stealth ability Giacomo is trying to pwn off on a regular monk is actually included in these builds, and is quite useful for a survival campaign.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 07:49 PM
You know, since FotF is out, you don't need as high of a str score anymore. I just had it that high for Pw Attack. So, my suggested stats are: str 12 con 14 dex 16 wis 14 int 14 cha 8. Put all stat points in dex.

EDIT: No reaping mauler! Bad! No cookie!

Annarrkkii
2008-04-03, 08:27 PM
Oh, come on now! It's not THAT bad of a class for a grappler. I mean, sure, it's primarily dead levels, but a 2 level dip is not the worst thing you could do for your character. Considering the rather specific demands of this build, it's actually marginally useful. Counter Grappling is actually quite useful—letting him try twice per round to break free of the grapple. It also makes a nice stepping stone into Shadowdancer.

But I agree it's not an awesome class. Or even a good one.

Regardless of your stance on Reaping Mauler, I still say Shadow Dancer is a good choice. Rog 1 / Monk 4 / Shadowdancer 1 could even be your starting build, but you probably don't want to bother with sneak attack in an undead campaign.

If Fist of the Forest is out, as you said, I suggest Ranger 2 / Monk 4 with the intention to pick up Shadowdancer the next level. From there, you could amp up Ranger as necessary, perhaps even pick up some conveniently synergistic Dervish levels. Those would certainly help keep your character mobile, though I suppose I don't like the idea of being fatigued in an undead survival campaign...

If you don't like Dervish, you could just as easily turn to something Complete Adventurery—Thief Acrobat was mentioned, and seems a sensible option.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 08:34 PM
Shadowdancer yes, RM no. Good grapplers do what now? Become larger. And that makes you no longer have Close Quarters Combat, which means you don't have the class anymore. Also, its offensive abilities are not good at all, it is way too easy to get immunities to those things at higher levels, and the capstone is just silly. The escape grapple thing is the only good thing it's got.

Also, CQC has the advantage for this character of not allowing any grapple attempts if he deals damage and they don't have Imp Grap or Grab.

Talic
2008-04-03, 09:31 PM
Savage Species has a survivor class. How sad this is core only. D12 hit die and full saves but no BAB...

Honestly, Giacomo's build is better than the two-weapon/flurry build. Both TWF and Flurry require full attack actions. Most of Giacomo's attacks happen in the zombies' rounds via AoO. You would certainly need to modify it a bit, but I agree with what most of he said. Is the infection air born, or is it only upon being struck that you get it? Because then the 9 or 10 fort save is nearly as bad as it may seem all other things considered.

Right now, it's not airborne. Percentage attack transmitted thru slam, 100% if through bite. Bite requires grapple tho (unless the race had a bite attack before... dogs ugh). Zombahs prefer grapple when possible. Giacomo's build isn't bad, I agree, however, it's not the theme I want, precisely. Getting rid of reach weapons kinda nerfs the build, TBH.

Oh, and Close Quarters fighting DOES help against critters with improved grab.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 09:47 PM
Yes it does. It helps a lot. But somebody said it doesn't help against those without it or something I think, so I felt it needed to be said.

Also, if you're theme doesn't include reach weapons, how are you being nerfed if you don't have one? Honestly I think you'd be nerfed if you did (not focusing on it). Optimization is not making the most powerful character possible, it is maximizing your characters potential. Using an analogy from somebody's sig, optimizing is using a power screw driver to screw a screw in. Powergaming is using a sledge hammer. And intentional nerfing is using just your hands.

Nebo_
2008-04-04, 03:35 AM
Oh, come on now! It's not THAT bad of a class for a grappler. I mean, sure, it's primarily dead levels, but a 2 level dip is not the worst thing you could do for your character. Considering the rather specific demands of this build, it's actually marginally useful. Counter Grappling is actually quite useful—letting him try twice per round to break free of the grapple. It also makes a nice stepping stone into Shadowdancer.

But I agree it's not an awesome class. Or even a good one.


It's worse than that. The prerequisite feat, Clever Wrestling, requires medium size, which means that if you enlarge yourself to become better at grappling, you lose ALL benefits of the class; BAB, grapple bonuses, bonus feats... It's a terrible class. It also gives improved grapple at first level, which assumes that you're playing a grappling focused character for 5 levels before you get in, without the feat a grappler needs. The full ten level version was much better.

Annarrkkii
2008-04-04, 06:11 AM
There's no enlargement methods in this game. Not at under 1,000 gp, no full casters, and a life expectancy of about 2d20 days. I'm familiar with the issues confronting the Reaping Mauler, but I genuinely think it wouldn't be a terrible option in this case. But whatever.