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Frosty
2008-03-31, 01:12 PM
In my party, the vast, vast majority of time, people refuse to play races with a level adjustment, citing the fact that LA generally sucks and it's not worth losing a level over...even with LA buy-off rules. I even told them about cat-folk, and they're still leery about taking a look.

Do you guys think Catfolk is a +1 LA race? What other races (not templates) are worth their LA?

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-31, 01:17 PM
Catfolk used to be nice because of pounce. Now you have to weigh Catfolk against the barbarian.

And what level are you starting at?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-31, 01:17 PM
Catfolk is close, especially if you plan on playing something that can take advantage of all their nifty bennies. Other than them, though, most are either undervalued or hideously broken. LA only really comes into it's own in Gestalt, where the HD and BaB advance normally, even though class features don't. Otherwise, it's just too much lost for too little gained.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 01:21 PM
+4 Dex, +2 Charisma, 40' base move, +1 Natural Armor. Yeah, that's worth a +1 LA to me.

Goliath is another one that's worth the +1.

Saph
2008-03-31, 01:21 PM
Catfolk is about the only +1 LA race I can think of that I'd be happy to play. They work pretty well as light-fighters and archers (rogues, scouts, rangers, swordsages, etc).

Most other LA races are very difficult to get to work, especially at low levels, where your ability scores are great but your HP is so low that you'll go down with one hit.

- Saph

Frosty
2008-03-31, 01:23 PM
Catfolk used to be nice because of pounce. Now you have to weigh Catfolk against the barbarian.

And what level are you starting at?

Level 4. What class would you recommend given bonuses to Cha and Dex?

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-31, 01:25 PM
I'd say Favoured Sould of Ehlonna due to how you'd get longbow proficiency, and the Cha boost would be good for spellcasting (the longbow would take advantage of the Dex bonus, and it would allow you to minimise your chances of getting hit).

Duke of URL
2008-03-31, 01:25 PM
I think it's a good LA +1 choice, especially for a finesse-based melee character (rogue, swashbuckler, ranger, scout, etc.). Think dervish/tempest for lots of fun, especially with the increased movement speed.

For a warlock, it's almost, but not quite, worth the loss of caster level; with LA buyback, it's a no-brainer.

The general rule against high ECL races is the loss of caster levels -- melee and non-spellcastng support don't have the same issues necessarily. If the race or template provides significant benefits that complement your role, then it's worth it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-31, 01:27 PM
Level 4. What class would you recommend given bonuses to Cha and Dex?

Bard, Rogue, Sorcerer in core. With buyoff the LA isn't a real problem and Catfolk does have nice bonuses.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-31, 01:29 PM
Rogue could do well with it, or at that level, even a front-liner like Barbarian or Paladin. really, +1 LA is only a major issue at second level, or with a caster Buyback is another big deal, though in this case, not required.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 01:30 PM
Well, ECL 5 is where we start. Level 4 was taking into account Catfolk LA.

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 01:32 PM
The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...
No. It's really, really not.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-31, 01:33 PM
Rogue/Swashbuckler with the feat from complete scoundrel that lets them stack. Be a catfolk pirate!

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 01:34 PM
Rogue/Swashbuckler with the feat from complete scoundrel that lets them stack. Be a catfolk pirate!

"Meow, arr!"

Duke of URL
2008-03-31, 01:35 PM
Well, ECL 5 is where we start. Level 4 was taking into account Catfolk LA.

The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

If you're two levels behind after buy-off, you're doing it wrong, I think.

In any case, the XP system is self-correcting -- once you fall behind in ECL, you earn XP faster.

Charlie Kemek
2008-03-31, 01:44 PM
yes, warlock would be a pretty good choice, maybe spellthief, or bard.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 01:46 PM
If you're two levels behind after buy-off, you're doing it wrong, I think.

In any case, the XP system is self-correcting -- once you fall behind in ECL, you earn XP faster.

Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.

Draz74
2008-03-31, 01:53 PM
The question is: Is being a level behind in spellcasting worth it? When the Wizard reaches level 7, you're still level 5 after buy-off. You cast level 2 spells while he casts level 4. Kind of eww...

Yeah, but that's the low point. After that, since your LA is bought-off and you're lower level, you'll catch up quick.

My answer is, "If you have fun being a Catfolk, and you're not based entirely around spellcasting, then yes, it's worth it."

nerulean
2008-03-31, 02:00 PM
Catfolk is pretty tasty as finesse/ranged bard. You're behind spellcasting already, so losing another level won't really hurt you too much since you already have to choose cunning spells in order to make the class's casting worth a damn, and you can make up any BAB you've missed out on no problem, and then some, with bard song.

I played a bard with a +2LA and didn't feel behind the group in any way, even compared to my wizard 6 enchanter friend.

Person_Man
2008-03-31, 02:01 PM
If you're a caster, then LA is never worth it.

If you're a non-caster, then I'd say no, Catfolk is still not worth it unless your DM allows LA buyoff.

Catfolk get +4 Dex, +2 Charisma, 40' base move, +1 Natural Armor, low light vision, and +2 on Listen and Move Silently.

So for +6 to stats and +10 Move (the rest is balanced out by what you'd normally get from a +0 LA race) you're trading a full level, including a hit die, Saves, BAB, and class abilities. You're also making it that much harder for you to get special/capstone abilities, which are only available at higher levels.

Also, Catfolk Pounce only works against Flat Footed enemies, and you need to take a feat in order to get it. So its not really worth it for that either.

turkishproverb
2008-03-31, 02:02 PM
Yeah, but that's the low point. After that, since your LA is bought-off and you're lower level, you'll catch up quick.

My answer is, "If you have fun being a Catfolk, and you're not based entirely around spellcasting, then yes, it's worth it."

Alternatively have them take a few levels in spelladdict to counter loss of spell levels to ECL.

elliott20
2008-03-31, 02:03 PM
but wouldn't being a catfolk make you vulnerable to all discussions of real life physics in a fantasy context? every time somebody mentions the illogical nature of hitpoints, one of your kin dies. wouldn't that be very upsetting?

Frosty
2008-03-31, 02:19 PM
but wouldn't being a catfolk make you vulnerable to all discussions of real life physics in a fantasy context? every time somebody mentions the illogical nature of hitpoints, one of your kin dies. wouldn't that be very upsetting?

roffel. Well, we could change the fluff slightly. Instead of a cat-folk, you cna be a bunny-folk witht he same stats! no need to roll fort save or die everytime physics is brought up.

Aquillion
2008-03-31, 02:30 PM
Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.Technically, you can't do that.

You must pay off your LA at the first opportunity. Even if you're starting at a higher level, you're supposed to build your character as if they went through those levels normally, so you have to go back and pay it at that point in your development.

If you're going to buy it off, a +1 LA must be bought off the moment you hit character level 3. The player has no choice about this, and it cannot be payed at any other point.

Additionally, understand that the XP must be payed the moment you hit the level (it does not drop you a character level, because when you remove the LA your required XP to 'maintain' that level is recalculated.)

For instance, a Catfolk who reaches ECL 4 (3 levels + catfolk LA 1) will have 6000 xp (your level 3 sun elf wizard also has 6000 xp). The catfolk must immediately pay 3000 xp (which is [current ECL - 1] x 1000) if they want to buy off their LA -- if they don't do it the instant they reach character level 3, they never get another chance. Assuming they do, they pay the 3000 xp, and now have 3000 xp total -- they are now at the very beginning of level 3 with 3000 xp to go for level 4.

A character using buyoff for a LA of 1 is never more than one level behind, and the gap will close (slowly) if the DM awards them more XP while their level is lower the way they're supposed to.

This would also have been true if your other mistake had been correct and they'd been able to pay at level 6 -- although I'll remind you again that they cannot, even if they wanted to for some insane reason. I suspect that what confused you was that you assumed they needed to have 'extra' xp to pay. Remember, a character with a LA has the same XP total as everyone else; the purpose of the XP cost is to ensure that they don't instantly gain class levels by trading off their LA (in the example above, if the level 3 Catfolk didn't pay any xp, they'd be turning into a non-LA character with 6000 xp, and would instantly advance to character level 4.)


Not really. The Sun elf wizard gets to level 6 when you get to level 5 as a catfolk Sorcerer. Then, the wizard reaches level 7. You buy-off your LA and remain level 5.No. Even if you bought off your LA at level 5 as you seem to be assuming here (and, again, you must buy it off at level 3), this still wouldn't work. You hit 5, you instantly pay 5000 xp and remain level 5 because your xp requirements are recalculated when the LA is removed. At the same time, the other wizard hits level 6. You now gain xp faster than them (for being a level below), but even if you didn't, you're going to hit level 6 before they hit 7 -- they can't get another level ahead of you.

Of course, for the race in question, there aren't any real good advantages to a caster, mechanically... but in the long run (or even at the level the game is taking place), with buyoff, it won't cripple you like you're saying.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 02:30 PM
If you're a caster, then LA is never worth it....with the exception of a few very broken templates that advance spellcasting. There's a LA 1 template out there, something about white dragons, that gives you one level of sorcerer casting.

It can also be worthwhile for things with racial spellcasting, or no racial HD, in a Gestalt game, depending on your DM's interpretation of how LA interacts with Gestalt.

Mewtarthio
2008-03-31, 03:23 PM
You must pay off your LA at the first opportunity. Even if you're starting at a higher level, you're supposed to build your character as if they went through those levels normally, so you have to go back and pay it at that point in your development.

If you're going to buy it off, a +1 LA must be bought off the moment you hit character level 3. The player has no choice about this, and it cannot be payed at any other point.

Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"

Zincorium
2008-03-31, 03:32 PM
Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"

Um, say what?

That's not what Acquillion said. You build your character as if you'd actually played through.

So if you started at 5th, the fair thing to do would be to have the character who bought off LA be at 4th level, with 7000 xp. As if they'd bought off the LA.

Award them the higher xp rate for a lower level character, and the difference quickly becomes fairly small.

And as to the second paragraph, who even does something like that? Do you actually play with people who insult inexperienced players for being inexperienced? Are you like that? It boggles my mind why you'd even go down that road.

Aquillion
2008-03-31, 03:41 PM
Where's the logic in that? "Oh, sorry, this is an ECL 5 game, so you missed the boat. Looks like you're screwed forever--have a nice game!"

To be honest, it looks more like a newbie trap to me. If someone doesn't know that LA buyback gets them ahead in the long run, they might opt not to take it when they become eligible. That way, once they realize thier mistake, you can make fun of them and say, "Sorry, too late!"That isn't what I meant. Frosty was calculating with the cost to pay it at level 5 (5000 xp) instead of at level 3 (3000 xp). Of course I think a character joining an ECL 5 game should be able to use LA buyoff, but they should do it by designing their character as if they'd payed the buyoff as soon as it was available; a character in a game starting above level 1 should be built exactly as if they went through each of the levels normally. If you want to be really exact, you would even calculate the extra xp they'd earn for being lower-level than the rest of the party at various points, but in any case, you should start them with no LA and about 3000 xp less than everyone else (in other words, at level 4 with ~3000 xp to go until level 5).

sikyon
2008-03-31, 03:47 PM
Generally the best +1 LA race is considered to be Mineral Warrior.

+3 Natural Armor, Earth strike, Darkvision 60ft, DR 8/adamantine, +2Str +4Con -2 to all mental stats.

Impressive if you ask me. That DR 8/adamantine is a killer at low levels.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 03:54 PM
Mineral Warrior is not a Template?

Vortling
2008-03-31, 04:08 PM
Mineral Warrior is a template. Scroll down to the bottom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e).

Reinboom
2008-03-31, 04:20 PM
Mineral Warrior is a template.
Feral is on the same par as it, also.
+6 nat armor
+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wisdom
Free Improved grab, pounce at 4 hit die, rake at 8, and rend at 12.
Fast healing that scales with hit die, starting at 2
two free claw attacks
+10 movement speed
LA +1


Aside,
I've been playing a Catfolk Sorcerer (with LA buyback'd) from ECL 6 til, now, 11.
It would have been difficult had I of started earlier, however, thanks to the near exponential increase in power for full spellcasters, the +1 LA isn't that big of a deal in mid game.
She would be more powerful if she wasn't a catfolk is most likely true, er, part of the time. The other part of the time she is slightly more powerful (thanks to LA buyback) than a standard version.
The +4 dex isn't bad at all for a sorcerer either. +2 to ray attacks, +2 init, +2 ac, and +2 reflex.

In practice, it tends to be whatever your party is, I find, not what you could be. Power is only relative to the scope you are in. If you do not have a CoDZilla or a decently player wizard in the same party - you will still be quite powerful in comparison to the party, as a full spellcaster (if you did sorcerer). You could even still easily be the overpowered character.


The -3000 XP of the catfolk (less if your DM is properly awarding more XP to lower levels) is less of a significant loss than many make it out to be mid game, for the +4 dex and +10 movement speed bonuses. (and +2 charisma)

Frosty
2008-03-31, 04:38 PM
Can you stack Mineral Warrior with Feral?

I wonder how tough a 1st level Feral Mineral Warrior Lizardfolk Crusader would be.

Person_Man
2008-03-31, 04:41 PM
...with the exception of a few very broken templates that advance spellcasting. There's a LA 1 template out there, something about white dragons, that gives you one level of sorcerer casting.

It can also be worthwhile for things with racial spellcasting, or no racial HD, in a Gestalt game, depending on your DM's interpretation of how LA interacts with Gestalt.

Point conceded, assuming your DM allows Mineral Warrior or Mulhorandi Divine Minion. I've never actually seen them played though.

Reinboom
2008-03-31, 04:41 PM
Can you stack Mineral Warrior with Feral?

I wonder how tough a 1st level Feral Mineral Warrior Lizardfolk Crusader would be.

Hurting in HP.

For that, use Lolth-Touched!
(MM3)

+1 LA
+6 Str, +6 Con.

:smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-03-31, 04:48 PM
Sure he's low on HP, but give him level 3 wealth so he can afford a fullplate and maybe a shield, and he has INSANE AC for his level, and DR 8/Adamantium, and good str and Con. Magic will kill him. Other things? not so much.

Zincorium
2008-03-31, 04:50 PM
Can you stack Mineral Warrior with Feral?

I wonder how tough a 1st level Feral Mineral Warrior Lizardfolk Crusader would be.

Yes, as feral is inherited but mineral warrior is acquired.

(spoilered due to irrelevancy to the OP's conversation)
You'd end up with three hit dice as a 6th level character, but you have DR 8/adamantine and fast healing, so that won't be a big deal. Likewise, your stupidly high strength makes the loss of BAB amusing. You'll have an initiator level of 3, which is enough to start the game with some 2nd level maneuvers and stances.

Honestly, given that you have claws doing 1d8 (2d6 if you get improved natural weapon), and a decent wisdom/bad charisma, I'd go swordsage and rock out with the tiger claw instead of crusader.

Feral is just broken, but how broken it ends up being depends on whether your DM restricts the 'hit dice' to only racial hit dice as opposed to class (the wording is kind of weird). Improved grab only works as a medium character on small critters, so you're the instant death of kobolds, it's when you start getting pounce and rake that things get crazy.

If you don't mind some more hit dice/LA, centaur is very good as a base critter, and Lolth-touched is easily worth the extra LA. YMMV.

mikethepoor
2008-03-31, 06:12 PM
I'm surprised so many people seem to be forgetting basic rules about LA buyoff. First, you're eligible every third class level; the table in UA tells us only when we can start. Second, it's basically like doing that level over, except with a class level instead of adjustment. Re: Catfolk moves up to 6th sorcerer level (ECL 7), and is eligible for buyoff. Catfolk goes back to the beginning of level 6, except they now have 6 HD instead of 5 this time around.

Aquillion
2008-03-31, 06:19 PM
I'm surprised so many people seem to be forgetting basic rules about LA buyoff. First, you're eligible every third class level; the table in UA tells us only when we can start. Second, it's basically like doing that level over, except with a class level instead of adjustment. Re: Catfolk moves up to 6th sorcerer level (ECL 7), and is eligible for buyoff. Catfolk goes back to the beginning of level 6, except they now have 6 HD instead of 5 this time around.
Nope.

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.Exactly three times. Not 'whenever it reaches a multiple of three', but exactly three times your LA.


If the level adjustment is greater than +1 this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0.The other points only come up if you have an LA greater than three. Thus, a character with an LA of +1 is 'eligible' only immediately upon reaching character level 3. And you can't wait:


Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction.

...

The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.Obviously, a non-tyrannical DM will let new or inexperienced players 'go back' or retrain to pay their LA after the fact. But the rules are very clear: You have to pay it at a specific point.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-31, 06:59 PM
Here's a few points to ponder:

1. What of the humble Dromite, from the XPH? I have always found it an infuriatingly frustrating race, with a +1 LA. Is it worth the price of admission? Scent, +3 natural armor, and 5 energy resistance against a single type... It's certainly better than a +0 LA race... Grr. I love the dromites so. There are few good insectoid races around, and one cannot always start as a Thri-Kreen, depending on the game.

2. Concerning LA buy off, what do you think of the following? When creating a new character with LA bought off, what of instead of starting at a lower level than the other characters they started with less starting gold? I sometimes do this, subtracting 5 gp per 1 XP they would have otherwise paid using the LA buy off system. Usually, I do this for high level games where the benefits of low (+1 or +2) LA's are much less pronounced, and there's enough starting gold that the dent doesn't put anyone too far behind.

Avor
2008-03-31, 07:54 PM
If you but a 18 into dex, catfolk makes it a 22, thats a +6 modifier.

That is one heck of a Ranger!

Serenity
2008-03-31, 07:56 PM
For the 'crystalpunk' setting I'm creating, I'm dropping the Dromites' energy ray ability to bring them down to LA 0. I'm using them in place of dwarves.

kentma57
2008-04-01, 07:45 AM
What you really need to think about is; do you think it will be fun? I am currently playing a 10th level awakened bunny, yes I lost a spell level because all my spells where stilled but it is so much fun to play...

AngelisBlack
2008-04-01, 04:11 PM
Its definitely worth the +1 LA if there is LA buyoff/buyback in place. It works well for a battle sorcerer because you can combine the natural defenses with some decent light armor without hampering your spellcasting ability.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 05:39 PM
So without buyback, no LA is ever worth it?

Aquillion
2008-04-01, 08:00 PM
So without buyback, no LA is ever worth it?Probably not for a spellcaster, unless you have some really specific exploit in mind or if it's a template / race that advances casting somehow (of which there are almost none.)

But for a melee character, especially a fighter, there are LAs that are worth it (Mineral Warrior, say, or something that will help you satisfy requirements for a high-powered prestige class faster). This is because you get so little from fighter levels, really... while BAB is important, you can partially make up for it from an LA race/template that grants high str. This is particularly true for tripping/grappling builds, which care less about their full attack and benefit more from increased size.

sonofzeal
2008-04-01, 08:32 PM
So without buyback, no LA is ever worth it?
For a spellcaster? No.

Melee characters are far more robust though. Many of them gain far more from high stat mods than they lose from the missing class level. Skill-based characters like Rogues and Factota can come out ahead too, if the race offers built-in utility options like a Swim or Climb speed, or a hefty skill bonus, or other options. For example, a Poison Dusk Rogue gets a boost to Con and Natural Armor, which help it survive in melee, and the three natural attacks provide better opportunity for Sneak Attack than TWF, and without the cost of a feat. Replace one of the claws with a dagger and you're off to the races. And then on top of that, you get skill bonuses (including a hefty one to Hide) and some other goodies.

Catfolk are another example. A seduction-Swashbuckler will get a lot of mileage out of that Dex and Cha, and likely make good use of the boost to land speed too. Scouts similarly come off well with that race.

Basically, LA races are like multiclassing - it can very easily mess you up in the long run, but if you synergize well then you can come out ahead. And it's almost never worth it for casters.

Reinboom
2008-04-01, 09:29 PM
White Dragonspawn (iirc), +1 LA. +1 Level of sorcerer casting (including spells known).
+ Other benefits.
Can be very worth it.