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Cuddly
2008-03-31, 05:28 PM
1. The druid in a game I'm running recently died, and his only available recourse was to be reanimated as a necropolitan by a nefarious necromancer. He lost his animal companion, for now, but I'm going to let him pick up a vermin companion, for which he'll have to burn a feat on. I feel this is a relatively fair trade.

The cleric in the party has recently converted him to Farlanghn (in part, so that the buff the cleric casts will be 50% more effective on him).

I don't have any major issues with this, but how should the druid be role played? Honestly, I can't figure out how to reconcile being dead and being a druid.

2. I need a party of 5 holy warrior NPCs. They're supposed to fill the paladin niche for the church of pelor. They'll be part of an organization that operates as Pelor's paramilitary force. However, they're all actually undead cultists of Vecna that have infiltrated the church.

What I need would be ideas for 5 builds that could both set up the subterfuge necessary to trick the church and convince the PCs that they're actually paladins or whatever.

ECL should be 11. I'm thinking five archetypical holy guys:
1. The leader, maybe a crusader/cleric/ruby knight vindicator (refluffed, of course), who specializes in defense. Would wield sword and board.
2. The hunter. Uses a bow. Ranger or wilderness rogue?
3. Melee powerhouse. Carries a big sword. Paladin/hexblade/Crusader?
4. Sneaky type. Helps everyone put on their disguises.
5. Caster. Definitely an archivist, perhaps with contemplative for turning. Will use spells to further mask undead.

Ideally, they'd all be spellcasters, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to make 5 gishes that masquerade as paladins. I have lots of books.

It's ok if their combat power level is a little low, since they'll be a level or two higher than the party.

SurlySeraph
2008-03-31, 05:51 PM
I don't have any major issues with this, but how should the druid be role played? Honestly, I can't figure out how to reconcile being dead and being a druid.

May I point you to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76170)?

Cuddly
2008-03-31, 06:24 PM
May I point you to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76170)?

Hmm, good to know he can't wildshape. Thanks.

Worira
2008-03-31, 06:36 PM
Actually, undead can wildshape just fine. It isn't based off polymorph, it's based off alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). Considering vampires have Alternate Form, it's pretty clear undead can use it.

Hawriel
2008-03-31, 06:41 PM
Well they druid has been killed then reanimated as undead. The druid then forsaken his beliefs in the big tree nature god for some other devine smuck for the soul perpose off having that gods defence magic work better. That character is no longer a druid he does not get to be an undead druid he is SOL because of his lack of faith.

Kol Korran
2008-03-31, 06:44 PM
i can only try and answer the first question (i don't have many books, and probably can't offer "optimized" builds). as to the druid- i have no idea what a necropolitan is, but i'm guessing it's basically an intelligent undead without too much powers and such. in light of this assumptio, how about this:

the druid takes it as a shock that he becomes undead, not knowing what to do. he feels as if he was cut out of things (if you're realy into roleplaying, then reduce/limit the amount of spells you have for awhile, perhaps completly). not knowing what to do, he turns to Farlanghn for guidance...
in his dreams/ moment of inspiration/ conversation with the cleric/ whatever, he sees The Road diverging for him, a newer spititual path... he sees his road leading to a mound, climbing atop it. from there, he sees many, many trails, passing below it. some are the trails of men, some of beasts, some of trees, some of seasons, times, and more.
the druid understands he has a new view point. true- it was cursed and cut out from the strem of living things, but his road now is to oversee and accompany all other roads. he has lost the road of his own "life", but has gained the vision, and the ability to over see so many others!
the druid see himself a bit like Moses (sorry for the religious analogy)- he has the vision, sees the people, and take a great burden upon itself to sheperd the vision to it's destiny, (the promised land) but he himself will never achieve it (Moses never entered Israel).
roleplay suggestions:

- the druid tries to balance between his commitment to his new role, and his depression/ melancholy over "being taken from the circle of life". you could play him as someone who has lost a loved one (himself in a way), and tries to get over it, to move on, but some times it's just too damn hard. this should fade in time, but could add much to the feeling of loss...

- the view of the world itself changes- colors, smells, tastes. what is constant and what is... but temporary. the druid may look on things different, appreciate things differently. in one way he start to thinking realy, realy long term, but on the other hand his own lingering sense of mortality makes him appreciate living transient things all the more (the curse of being aware). the balance between things also changes through time...

- another issue that "changes with time" is the reaction to whomever got you raised/ transformed. at first the rage and anger at them might be overpowering, but the more you come to terms with your new situation, the more the anger will dissipate. whether you will let it go completly, forgive the "perpertrator", or let go of the bitterness is up to you... this might become importent if at some point you are dealing with a necromancer. you might even develop an entirely new focus for all things undead- pity, sadness, anger, hatred, comfort... it's all up to you.

- the entire question of "raise dead" and similar spells might be troubling to you, and you might take step to other prevent such a thing happening, or alternitavely "having nothing to do with it!" (not willing to pay your share, not agreeing to go on quests for that... or just making a loud enough protest). make the even remote possibility of subverting the natural order, of becoming "cut out" an issue to you! this tradegy happened once, and you should know! you're not going to just let it happen again..

- Farlanghn: you now understand that paths are more spiritual than physical. you speak in terms of roards, crossroads, blocked paths, the long trek, veering of the common path and more. you see your path as different, one that others cannot, and must not tread. you see paths that others do not, and you're willing to look for were peoples roads end (for yours cannot)... take this seriously, and it will add another dimension to your character

- the druidic orders, and other druids: you refrain from meeting them, knowing they will not understand. you feel their view of natural things is lacking, but refrain from berating them so. you may try to explain yourself at one point or another, but having been a living druid yourself, you know how futile an explanation may seem. any encounter with a "nature themed" encounter may live you highly depressed...

- optional: have some creeper plant grow on you, perhaps embed it's roots in you, as you slowly decompose. you say you do this to remind you of your role, and also not to waste nutrients, but realy- it just makes you feel a bit more alive...

as to spells and powers: i suggest sitting with the DM and see what mkes sense and what doesn't, and replace things to fit the new theme. but some suggestions:
- instead of a vermin comanion (this stll doesn't fit the theme after all) why not have a specific animal companion. the idea is to have one animal which is just as dead as you, and is truly your only companion for all the years to come. it progresses naturally, or perhaps it gains some "un-deadish" abilities?
to replace the ability of not getting another companion if it "dies", you gain the ability to raise it again (a special version of the "reincarnate" spell, only you posses). this companion will be with you always, for the long term...
the DM and you should work on how to get it into play. perhaps after battling a necromancer, one of the animal you tried to save (used for experiments), rises? perhaps in an area of wild magic one of your spells transform an animals to this, and now you feel responsibe for it? or perhaps a villain you fought before (perhaps the one who killed you?) raises a previous animal companion of yours to taunt you, but as you come sloe the zombified animal inexplicably recognizes and join you?
you could consider it a gift from Farlanghn, or perhaps you feel guilty for inflicting your condition upon another. anyway, in some part of you, you feel relieved you're not going through this alone.

- wild shape: this i think is the most complicated- a corpse turning into living animals? into representations of nature? i suggest you sit with the DM and find some "deathly themed" forms you can change into (the limited number of forms compensates for their "unusuallity") such as swarms, or a deahtly hound, or other stuff (sorry, a bit bogged out on that right now).
another idea will be to forgo the wildshape, and give you other powers, another "path" as Farlanghn would say... perhaps "un-deadish" powers, perhaps more spells, or more power to spells, perhaps powers associated with Farlanghn (increased speed, flight, luck and so on). sit with your DM. the current wildshape seems way out of line...
just smaple ideas: SR, DR, various monk abilites ("quivering touch refluffed?), more feats (insights from your new condition), guidance of the anceints (a power of the Valenar prestige class from Player's Guide to Eberron. basically each day you meditate and gain certain feats and bonuses from a list. you could consider this to be from "the trails" you see, or your insights. might lead to excellent roleplay!), ghoul touch, wraith touch, various vampire/ lich powers...

- spells: some i believe will not fit the theme, but you can easely grant other spells. i realy see very little problems, as most of these can be considered manipulating nature, which you have the knowledge for...

- other abilities: the druid class is packed with all kind of "stuff". most will probably work fine, but some probably won't. ("timeless body for example. you have that allready, no?) you can either drop them, or replace them with more fitting concepts.

ok, hope this will help. do tell if you've taken any of these ideas to heart

Hawriel
2008-03-31, 06:47 PM
Well they druid has been killed then reanimated as undead. The druid then forsaken his beliefs in the big tree nature god for some other devine smuck for the soul perpose off having that gods defence magic work better. That character is no longer a druid he does not get to be an undead druid he is SOL because of his lack of faith.

The_Werebear
2008-03-31, 07:27 PM
For the Druid, I say allow them to turn into undead animals. It really won't be that big of an issue. I also love Kol's idea for the perspective an undead druid might have. The creeper plant- Genius.

For the party of infiltrators- Have all of them invest in Rings of Nondetection. Some ranks in bluff would be handy as well.

kamikasei
2008-04-01, 03:37 AM
The druid then forsaken his beliefs in the big tree nature god for some other devine smuck for the soul perpose off having that gods defence magic work better. That character is no longer a druid he does not get to be an undead druid he is SOL because of his lack of faith.

Druids can worship gods. There's no reason they can't. Fhalarghn is as valid a target for worship as Obad-Hai or Elhonna so long as the druid remains neutral on at least one axis and continues to revere nature. There is no "big tree nature god" that druids must worship exclusively.

Rad
2008-04-01, 05:12 AM
I would look into the Blighter PrC (C.Divine). Possibly with the chance of allowing some levels trade-in.

Personally, I always thought that Druids were the true enemies of undeath (and that they should be the ones turning undead)so that is hard to admit for me.
On the other hand he could still be struggling to regain life, making his faith make sense; it's a purely RP thing but it would mean a lot. If he is happy with being undead I wouldn't allow him to stay a druid and would have him retrain as a blighter or, if he asks nicely, cleric of an appropriate deity.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-01, 06:12 AM
Fharlangn's a reasonable nature-god- watcher of the roads, keeping an eye out for everyone who travels.

As for Undead- the Eternal Watcher style. The Druid has lost what he tries to preserve for himself, but this allows him to preserve it for others even better. He can now spend all of eternity guarding and guiding the living.

Look at FR Baelnorns for a bit of an idea of what to do.

Hawriel
2008-04-01, 05:46 PM
Druids can worship gods. There's no reason they can't. Fhalarghn is as valid a target for worship as Obad-Hai or Elhonna so long as the druid remains neutral on at least one axis and continues to revere nature. There is no "big tree nature god" that druids must worship exclusively.

Well yes there is. In a sence. There are nature gods in FR that druids worship. There is also one other thing your failing to consider. Undead are an abomination to the natural order of nature. That undead druid is an abomination and any real druid apon learning of his existence would make it their goal to extinguish the undead druid. Any powers the undead druid may have would not derive from nature but some god of undead. If the druid has been raised from the dead into a form of unlife the druid had to do it willingly. Thus forsaking the belief system of the druids.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-01, 07:01 PM
Well yes there is. In a sence. There are nature gods in FR that druids worship. There is also one other thing your failing to consider. Undead are an abomination to the natural order of nature. That undead druid is an abomination and any real druid apon learning of his existence would make it their goal to extinguish the undead druid. Any powers the undead druid may have would not derive from nature but some god of undead. If the druid has been raised from the dead into a form of unlife the druid had to do it willingly. Thus forsaking the belief system of the druids.

This is an understanding of what "revering Nature" means, it certainly isn't the only one... sure there will be some druids and nature clrerics that oppose an undead druid but it isn't inherent to the druid class that undead=anathama, they have to "revere nature" and in a world that includes negative energy that most certainly includes undead, infact i can make a pretty good arguement that ignoring undead is unnatural given they're just an offshoot of the energy types and not abbominations, abberations, far-realm stooges, inherently evil or inherently anti-fluffly-bunny or anything.

To those who equate undead with non-druidic I say go read the tome of necromancy on the wizards charOps boards, it gives a pretty good run down of the two possible metaphysical layouts of negative energies, wither inherently evil (doesn't make sense!!!) or just anouther energy type (Yes!). As it stands there isn't anything in the basic druid writeup that prevents an undead druid, just like there isn't anything in it that [revents a druid that hates animals and plants but loves rocks and weather... The point being that you as a tool using ape do NOT matter from the perspective of such a mind boggalingly abstract concept as "Nature"

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-01, 07:24 PM
What I don't get is, which sourcebook says undead are an abomination and druids must hate them? People seem to repeat that a lot.

kamikasei
2008-04-02, 06:02 AM
Well yes there is. In a sence. There are nature gods in FR that druids worship. There is also one other thing your failing to consider. Undead are an abomination to the natural order of nature. That undead druid is an abomination and any real druid apon learning of his existence would make it their goal to extinguish the undead druid. Any powers the undead druid may have would not derive from nature but some god of undead. If the druid has been raised from the dead into a form of unlife the druid had to do it willingly. Thus forsaking the belief system of the druids.

Okay, to clarify: you originally said:


The druid then forsaken his beliefs in the big tree nature god for some other devine smuck for the soul perpose off having that gods defence magic work better. That character is no longer a druid he does not get to be an undead druid he is SOL because of his lack of faith.

To which I replied, among other things:


There is no "big tree nature god" that druids must worship exclusively.

(Emphasis added).

And that's exactly correct. That there are nature deities in FR or elsewhere does not mean a druid has to worship one of them exclusively to remain a druid (it may mean this in FR, where deities are generally more significant in these respects, but not generally).

As for the undead thing I was not "failing to consider" it, I wasn't addressing it at all. That being undead may make it difficult or impossible for him to remain a druid is an entirely separate question from his religion.

Again: you stated that his conversion and therefore "forsaking" an original deity that we don't know even existed represents a "lack of faith" which disqualifies him from druidhood. In fact he can continue to be a druid so long as he reveres nature, regardless of the god he worships. The fact that he's undead now may mean he can't sincerly revere nature without destroying himself as an abomination, but that's independent of his deity.

Had he not been killed and turned undead - if he was just a normal human druid who took up the worship of Fharlanghn - do you think he should lose his druidic abilities because of that change of religion? Is that the case you're trying to argue? Or is it his turning undead that is the problem?

The_Werebear
2008-04-02, 10:37 AM
Being undead isn't the Druid's fault in this case. It isn't like he sought his condition; it was forced on him. So long as he does his best to work with his new situation, there is no reason for him to fall.

The ways I can see this working-
-Specifically fermenting his decay to feed plants
-Not eating- After all, he doesn't need to any more and it is wasteful.
-Continuing to perform his duties as a druid, including destroying other undead and abominations, despite the hypocracy.
-Not attempting to extend his lifespan further. Eventually, he will decay to nothing and he shouldn't attempt to halt that for any reason. He is already getting an extension too far.
-Not talking to other druids. If he does, disguising his nature. They won't understand.

Cuddly
2008-04-02, 12:59 PM
The conversion to Fharlanghn makes sense. The cleric has been prosetylizing almost every session, and routinely uses his divinely granted magic to protect and guide a party where near every member is hundreds of miles from home, and all are natural wanderers. I have no problems with polylatry* in a D&D game; it makes more sense than the alternatives. In fact, I can't think of any deity that requires monolatry** to grant their clerics spells, much less any rule, anywhere, that says a character can only worship one deity. It's not like druids draw their spells from any deity that will get jealous and withdraw their blessings.

*polylatry- worshipping multiple gods
**monolatry- recognizing that there are many gods, but choosing to worship only one.

Craig1f
2008-04-02, 01:00 PM
I would say that a Druid who makes a conscious decision to become undead (like turning into a lich) has rejected everything that makes a Druid a Druid, and they would lose their powers.

Being made undead against their will would not violate this problem. But then you end up with a conundrum. You're a freak of nature; you need to fix this. The only real solution is to kill yourself.

I think a good fix is some sort of curse that prevents the Druid from killing himself. This way, he is prevented from performing the action that he is honor-bound to perform, and he is not held accountable for being unnatural.

You have to come up with a reason why he can't choose to return to the natural order of things.

Cuddly
2008-04-02, 08:55 PM
You have to come up with a reason why he can't choose to return to the natural order of things.

Nah.
I'm not of the opinion that the undead cannot revere nature and use its powers.

hamishspence
2008-04-03, 11:40 AM
FR has one undead druid: Champions of Ruin. He draws power from "nature" raher than a deity, which pretty much makes him unique in the Realms.

Maybe a NE druid of Auril, Deity of Winter? Not sure if she allows undead worshippers.

Libris Mortis has Undead Wild Shape rules.

So, there is precedent for undead druids.
Novel-wise: the Moonshae trilogy gives hints that undead are "antithetical to nature" and they even wither plants as they pass.

Lords Of Madness suggests that its aberrations that really annoy druids.

RyanM
2008-04-03, 02:05 PM
I don't have any major issues with this, but how should the druid be role played? Honestly, I can't figure out how to reconcile being dead and being a druid.

First thing that came to mind is denial. Deep, deep, denial. Possibly aided by the party, like:

"Oh, did you guys save up enough to have me raised?"
"Yyyyyeah... absolutely. But, uh, you picked up a magical flesh eating disease in the meantime, and your animal companion ran away. Now we need to figure out how to cure that. We think there's a magical ring that will eliminate the negative effects, but you'll have to wear it for the rest of your life. But the bright side is this disease also negates your need to eat and sleep. Isn't that awesome?"

Then "cure" him with a ring of gentle repose.