How would OOTS be different...

[Sequinox]

if Roy had gone out with Miko when she said she'd be more willing to love him?

My theory:

For one, she wouldn't have been so quick to blame the oots on being in league with Xykon WHICH MEANS she wouldn't have freaked out WHICH MEANS she wouldn't have killed Lord Shojo WHICH MEANS Kubota wouldn't have removed his own small army, as well as many other noble WHICH MIGHT MEAN that the battle for the Azure City might have been won WHICH MEANS that by now, the oots would be on their way to Girard's Gate, possibly with Miko.

Going back a while now....

For two, Roy would probably still be going out with her and not Celia. And if they lost the battle anyway, Haley might be headed to Cliffport with MIKO! instead of Celia.

Anyone else?

[rankrath]

yes, but it would mean that roy would have had to date Miko. Do you have any idea what that means? *shudders*

[Surfing HalfOrc]

yes, but it would mean that roy would have had to date Miko. Do you have any idea what that means? *shudders*

Yes.

I means he would be touched by a hot, kung-fu chick, and not a short, hairy man.

:smallbiggrin:

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

Then Miko wouldn't be as tightly wound up if she was getting Tresure Type O regulary:smallamused:
but seriously
its amazing how one thing can alter the entire plot. You've given me alot to think about

[rankrath]

Yes.

I means he would be touched by a hot, kung-fu chick, and not a short, hairy man.

:smallbiggrin:

I was thinking more about the material the house of horrors would have had, if this would have occurred.

[The Hop Goblin]

Impossible: While love certainly does not have to follow any sort of logic or reason - she is incapable of holding love or a relationship on stable terms due to her over-exaggurated self-importance nor is she capable of witholding judgement of every little thing Roy or the OOTS does.

As Roy postulated:
:roy: Honey, we are out of milk.
:miko: Clearly this means that the gods want me to kill you!" Slash! Slash! Slash!

Regardless of Treasure Type-O infusion or not, she still is a self-centered whack-job. Love would end up adding Yellow-Cake Uranium to an already unstable mixture.

[Callista]

I think Miko was headed for destruction before Roy ever got the chance. Miko at the point we met her was already unstable; she might not have turned against the party, but she would have caused trouble... if, when the party discovered Shojo's charade, she ended up having the same psychotic break she had before, she might have turned against Azure City instead, for example. Roy would have had to meet her several years before, when Miko still defined her life as more than just "Slay evil things and be the perfect paladin".

[DanielX]

I'm not sure if it would have worked out. Miko has some *issues* she would have to work out before attempting any kind of relationship with Roy. That said, not going berserk and killing Shojo would do much for Azure City's defense.

[ChaoticEvilGuy]

also she might have not mistrusted the OotS. But when she met Xykon she would've guessed that they were liers and did not in fact kill Xykon... or destroy... or whatever! so then we would've ended right back to falling so hard that she left cracks on the floor

[Yendor]

The Order wouldn't have been chained up, so... Haley and V get fed up with Roy and walk out, long before getting to Azure City. They take Elan with them.

[Ward.]

Impossible: she is incapable of holding love or a relationship on stable terms due to her over-exaggurated self-importance nor is she capable of witholding judgement of every little thing Roy or the OOTS does.


Me thinks you should go take a look at your nearest married couple.

[The Hop Goblin]

Me thinks you should go take a look at your nearest married couple.

'Me thinks' I don't have very far to look. Most married couples don't have one individual ready to be the 'hand of divine retribution' over a misinterperatation over a single event.

You might have to deal with the 'glare of death' in your relationship - but you don't have your significant other with hand on sword waiting for you to screw up so they can bring you to justice.

And if you do... I'm sincerely sorry your relationship is that bad, I guess I'm lucky that way.

[FujinAkari]

'Me thinks' I don't have very far to look. Most married couples don't have one individual ready to be the 'hand of divine retribution' over a misinterperatation over a single event.

Nor would this one. Miko accepted the fact that she was wrong about the Order when she first met them, even to the point of doing a nearly complete 180' turn into being willing to DATE Roy after the inn sequence.

This does not a psychopath make.

[factotum]

So you're presumably of the "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" idea that Miko was pretty much turned into the raging ball of fury well all know and hate by Roy's rejection of her? Not convinced of that, myself...she was clearly really tightly wound before that ever happened (she was complaining about a mattress with its tag removed in the inn!). Furthermore, apart from Roy and Durkon she didn't get on with the rest of the OotS--the thought balloons of the pair of them shortly after she met Haley outside the burning inn show that.

Frankly, if Roy *had* stayed with her, I don't think the Order as a whole would have survived the experience. Haley and V would probably have left before the battle of Azure City ever started, which would have meant Redcloak's Titanium Elementals would have done a lot more damage than they did!

[Raging Gene Ray]

Miko accepted the fact that she was wrong about the Order when she first met them, even to the point of doing a nearly complete 180' turn into being willing to DATE Roy after the inn sequence.

This does not a psychopath make.

Quoted for truth. She never attacked anyone for petty reasons, either. She attacked the Order because they decided to violently resist arrest after she agreed to escort them peacefully. She tried to kill Belkar for murdering the guard and trying to murder her. She began to hate the Order after they gave her good reason to believe that they all wanted her dead. She killed Shojo because he was working with them and had set Belkar free...since she, unlike Hinjo, had been threatened by the Order in the past, she assumed his plans did not bode well for her. She attacked Hinjo because...well, her mind had snapped under the sudden stress of being tried for a crime that she knew she was guilty of.

V was the one who believed she deserved to die for snapping at him a few times during and after the fight with the ogres...much more psychotic.

There would be some difficulties dealing with the fact the whole reason she was sent after the Order in the first place was so they could carry out a job that she couldn't due to Soon's vow. Although she might believe it wise to investigate other gates, she wouldn't be able to and would, like the rest of the Sapphire Guard, be forced to try Shojo for breaking it by recruiting the Order.

Also, I see you're using more than one word at a time, Fujin. Are you on MakeSense(C) pills, too?

[The Hop Goblin]

Nor would this one. Miko accepted the fact that she was wrong about the Order when she first met them, even to the point of doing a nearly complete 180' turn into being willing to DATE Roy after the inn sequence.

This does not a psychopath make.

Even the insane can have bouts of momentary sanity. Regardless - her later actions, her assumptions, and the revelation that her attitudes predate contact with the OOTS all point to one thing.

Miko is unstable. A lost soul over-zealous to the point of paranoid psychosis - to see a crack in a prison bar to mean that she was meant to escape & that the gods want her to destroy the gate. Her desperation to always be in the right and the willingness to believe the laudable just to justify her insane ideals would not have been cured by Roy being around.

It may have been an interesting 10 comic story-arc (with no little emo-wishy washy attitude about whether her loyalty is to Roy or to the 12), but unless you do a complete character revamp (essentially take away what made Miko whom she was and replace it with a completely different personality), the outcome would be either the same or a more hurried pace. One wrong utterance, one off color action and OOTS and darling Roy would be put to the blade - because obviously - she is the chosen one, She is the personal avatar of the 12 gods of the South, so whatever she feels must be a direct message to her by them.

A little off center, and I've attempted to date folk such as this - it doesn't work. And unless Death and Resurrection is going to rewrite Miko's personality - I don't see it ever happening to a good result.

[jamroar]

Even the insane can have bouts of momentary sanity. Regardless - her later actions, her assumptions, and the revelation that her attitudes predate contact with the OOTS all point to one thing.

Miko is unstable. A lost soul over-zealous to the point of paranoid psychosis
That trait is hardly unique, it's an occupational hazard of all the divine classes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).

[The Hop Goblin]

That trait is hardly unique, it's an occupational hazard of all the divine classes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).

Durkon does not jump to conclusions that result in regicide, prison escape, attempted murder, vigilantism, wrongful persecution, disobeying one's lord, destruction of temporal artifacts, etc.

Sorry, but she's damaged goods - always was. Just simply part of her character.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Frankly, if Roy *had* stayed with her, I don't think the Order as a whole would have survived the experience. Haley and V would probably have left before the battle of Azure City ever started, which would have meant Redcloak's Titanium Elementals would have done a lot more damage than they did!

I agree. Just look what that other tightly wound asian chick did to the Beatles.

[Paragon Badger]

If Roy was a different person, maybe.

"I cried the first night away from the dojo, but you came and told me the gods needed my strength." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)

That is a conscious decision on Miko's part to narowly focus her view on one subject; her duty.

If Roy had been more forgiving and was dedicated on helping Miko swerve away from her focused lifestyle, she may have strayed from overdedicating her life to her duty.

Indeed, his comment about 'Treasure Type O' may have been more poignant than we'd first realize. :smalltongue: She would need to branch out her views, perhaps this change could be made while in a relationship.

Yes, I'm blaming Roy- not Miko. :smallamused:

Like most 'bad' people, she's damaged goods, but heal-able if somone had the effort.

[FujinAkari]

Even the insane can have bouts of momentary sanity. Regardless - her later actions, her assumptions, and the revelation that her attitudes predate contact with the OOTS all point to one thing.

If an insane has a "momentary bout of sanity" that lasts for 23 years, I wouldn't call it a bout :P. Miko was and acted quite sane until the bitter end, when she truly was becoming embroiled in conspiracy theories (quite understandable, actually, since Shojo ACTUALLY WAS conspiring)

Your objection here seems somewhat shortsighted, as nothing you are citing took place until AFTER the point in the comic we are interested in.

Her assumptions? She didn't have any, she had facts. No less than three people (Shojo, the blacksmith who misidentified the Order as Nale's group, and Samantha/Pa) gave her consistent stories about how ruthless and horrible the Order was. When you have information independently verified from three disparate sources, it no longer qualifies as an assumption.

Her attitude predating meeting the OOTS? What exactly do you mean? Are you referring to the fact that the rest of the Guard didn't love her and invite her over to pet kittens? That isn't exactly a crime, you know. Vaarsuvius and Durkon aren't precisely a social butterflys either, and yet no one considers them psychotic.


prison escape,

Would this be a bad time to note that if Miko hadn't escaped, the Snarl would be loose by now? Redcloak guarded all the entrances (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) and Soon couldn't smash the Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).

If Miko -hadn't- been there, Team Evil wins. Yes, she -could- have handled the situation better, but she was 100% correct to escape from her cell.


Also, I see you're using more than one word at a time, Fujin. Are you on MakeSense(C) pills, too?

If you play to the very end of FF8:

Fujin could always talk just fine, she just didn't bother to expend the effort on people she had no respect for.

[factotum]

Would this be a bad time to note that if Miko hadn't escaped, the Snarl would be loose by now? Redcloak guarded all the entrances (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) and Soon couldn't smash the Phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html).

If Miko -hadn't- been there, Team Evil wins. Yes, she -could- have handled the situation better, but she was 100% correct to escape from her cell.


You're ignoring the important detail that Redcloak and Xykon would both be dead if Miko hadn't destroyed the gate when she did. Soon Kim would easily have been able to keep any lower-level hobgoblins out of the throne room with them gone, and I doubt any of the hobgoblin clerics would be high enough level to Resurrect Redcloak (which is what they'd have to do if they couldn't reach his body). Without Xykon and Redcloak the Snarl was in no danger whatsoever of being released, controlled, or anything else.

[SteveMB]

I think she would have snapped anyway, and it would be even worse when her rationalizations led her to believe that Roy was just pretending to care about her as part of the conspiracy.

[FujinAkari]

You're ignoring the important detail that Redcloak and Xykon would both be dead if Miko hadn't destroyed the gate when she did. Soon Kim would easily have been able to keep any lower-level hobgoblins out of the throne room with them gone, and I doubt any of the hobgoblin clerics would be high enough level to Resurrect Redcloak (which is what they'd have to do if they couldn't reach his body). Without Xykon and Redcloak the Snarl was in no danger whatsoever of being released, controlled, or anything else.

So you think Soon Kim could defeat an entire Hobgoblin Army? The Comic Disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)

[Querzis]

So you think Soon Kim could defeat an entire Hobgoblin Army? The Comic Disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)

It seems you cant do the difference between a living level 13 adventurer and an epic deathless incorporeal paladin. Here are some undead trait (that also apply to deathless)

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

And Soon was also incorporeal, a 50% miss chance.

So yes, an epic Deathless can definitly beat a low-level army all by himself. Hes immune to one-hit kill, crit and can actually even heal himself if he ever need it (unlikely). Xykon was the only one even able to hurt Soon, nobody else in that hobgobelins army with almost only level 1 warriors or cleric would have been likely to hit/hurt/bother him. And thats assuming all the 20 000 hobgobelins are stupid enough to all try to kill him after he easely defeated their two leader. Its also assuming that Soon would not be able to find someone to destroy Xykon phylactery. Its also assuming that the deathless paladins wont just come back after a while since they still havent completed their oath.

Edit: Thanks, I forgot mundane weapon had 100% miss chance. So yes, Soon can definitly easely defeat the entire army.

[Thufir]

So you think Soon Kim could defeat an entire Hobgoblin Army? The Comic Disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)

Ah, but that's a different situation. Soon is incorporeal, and how many of the hobgoblins have magic weapons, do you think? Because those are the only ones that count in this case, as the rest would be unable to harm him at all. That severely reduces the odds against him. Also, he's epic.
Of course, that's not to say they couldn't distract him long enough for others to possibly rush in and drag Redcloak out, along with Xykon's phylactery, but in a straight fight, I think yes, he could defeat the entire army.

Edit: Slightly ninja'd, though the above person failed to mention that the 50% miss chance only applies for magical weapons, as I brought up. Mundane ones have a 100% miss chance.

[Callista]

My personal opinion: The last chance for Miko was probably around the time Shojo fished her out of the monastery and made her a paladin. At that point, she was still rather young--we don't know how young; but she's evidently been a paladin for a while, and she's still young when she appears in the strip.

Until now, she probably hasn't had much teaching in the meaning of Good. The "G" in her LG is the "negative" part of Good--the "oppose evil" kind--rather than the "positive" aspect: Mercy, kindness, friendship, etc.

So Miko, the newly minted paladin, is looking for purpose. She finds it... where? Well, in the current storyline, she found it by trying to be the perfect, by-the-book paladin; and once she got onto that path--applying Law to Good--she would have been hard to sway from it. Her concrete way of thinking simply defined "good" in a Lawful way and integrated it into her code.

When Miko defined "Good" in terms of "Law", she was set on her path.

It wouldn't have been romance that saved her. She would already have thought of romance as extraneous to her purpose. Romance is a very CG sort of thing at its core, dealing with personal feelings.

The one thing left is a friendship, either in the form of a comrade--a partner, someone to rely on in battle--or a mentor. Either would have had to be LG, in order to teach her what "G" meant. So we're talking about a fellow Paladin here, a friend willing to put up with her rigid perfectionism and teach her--not by saying, but by doing--what Good means.

Having this theoretical friend or mentor would have given Miko a slightly different purpose, with a significant outcome. Instead of focusing on herself, she would begin to focus on at least one other person, and from there (having had practice) learn to focus on people in general. Instead of living to make herself the perfect paladin, she begins to see that being a paladin isn't an end in itself, it's the means to do good.

Miko had a mentor--sort of--and chances are that Shojo was the one tying her to sanity in the first place. The problem, of course, is that the CG Shojo sees nothing wrong with lying; and when Miko can't connect Shojo with her idea of LG, she loses her last support--and her ability to reason.

[thogcool1242]

If roy did go out with her all I think would happen is they would sleep together then the same exact events would happen.

[David Argall]

if Roy had gone out with Miko when she said she'd be more willing to love him?

We are told by our writer that Miko was intended to be a permanent bother to the party, but that he just could not make Miko a sympathetic figure, nor make the romance click. Unstated is that he then made her crazy and wrote her out of the story.

So we are saying he managed to make Miko-Roy a stormy romance. They may like each other, but they don't get along well. This would not change the rest of the story greatly. Azure City is still scheduled to fall, and the gate get destroyed. We can't go for want of a nail the kingdom was lost here. We just change a bit on who goes where in the story.

First we need a new excuse for the party fighting Miko and getting hauled off in chains. There are several possibilities, but they do need to be looked at. Since we want their personal relations friendly, indeed exceedingly so, it seems we want an outside matter. Maybe Roy insists Haley's voice needs immediate attention and Miko insists on immediate travel.

Our throne room scenes would be much the same, just a little different dialogue. Afterwards, we might have a Miko determined to prove the evil of Roy and so when Roy suggests a date, she gets the idea she can get him to reveal things over a few drinks. Things do not go quite as she planned and she wakes in his bed, which is entirely his evil scheme in her view.

Anyway, she goes off to the Dwarf kingdom while the party visits Oracle and Cliffport. We also keep much of what happens up to the killing of Shojo. His death seems too plot useful and so we likely keep Miko killing him. This tosses her in jail and then she escapes.

So we get to the battle in the throne room and we still need to destroy the gate. Since we don't need O'Chul in this version nearly as much, we largely replace him with her, and she ends up visiting MitD, and then getting tortured by Redcloak. She would later survive some way and be reunited with Roy, in a very joyus, and stormy way.

Our Celia figure would likely be more professional and might give Roy the talisman merely as a way to get in touch with her if he has further legal problems, a high grade business card.

On other points...

Soon could not defeat the Hobgoblin army, or much of anything. He is confined to the courtroom. He can hold them at bay, but he can't hurt those outside the room. Since he is unable to damage objects, the hobs stand at the doorway and toss a rope until they snag Redcloak's body and haul it out. Xykon is then free to reform, and they put the Cloak on a new Redcloak. From there, they start using schemes until they find a way to beat Soon. So Soon needs to have somebody destroy the gate.

[Estelindis]

Miko had a mentor--sort of--and chances are that Shojo was the one tying her to sanity in the first place. The problem, of course, is that the CG Shojo sees nothing wrong with lying; and when Miko can't connect Shojo with her idea of LG, she loses her last support--and her ability to reason.
What an excellent piece of analysis! *thumbs up*

[FujinAkari]

It seems you cant do the difference between a living level 13 adventurer and an epic deathless incorporeal paladin. Here are some undead trait (that also apply to deathless)

Good point, but you're assuming the Hobgoblin Army would just stand around and be massacred. Instead, they'd probably run in, grab Redcloak's body, and run back out. Once it becomes clear that Soon can't leave the throneroom (and it'll be pretty obvious... the hobgoblins that go in get slaughtered, but those that look in don't), it becomes a trivial matter to get Redcloak back out.

We still end up with a situation where Xykon wins if Miko isn't there... the city had -fallen-. It would have taken time to get Redcloak and Xykon back up and operational, but time is something they had.

[Querzis]

Good point, but you're assuming the Hobgoblin Army would just stand around and be massacred. Instead, they'd probably run in, grab Redcloak's body, and run back out. Once it becomes clear that Soon can't leave the throneroom (and it'll be pretty obvious... the hobgoblins that go in get slaughtered, but those that look in don't), it becomes a trivial matter to get Redcloak back out.

We still end up with a situation where Xykon wins if Miko isn't there... the city had -fallen-. It would have taken time to get Redcloak and Xykon back up and operational, but time is something they had.

You do realize that the fact that they cant leave the throneroom was just a forum theory that was never mentioned in the comic? Go read all the comic with Soon again, they really never say that.

But lets assume its true that he cant leave the throne room. Lets also assume they dont just run away when they see their two dead leaders. Lets assume the hobgobelins will come in group large enough to pull that off or that they can do it before there is a wall of corpse like in comic 436 that would make finding and running away with Redcloak kinda impossible (hell they woudnt even know hes under those corpses). More importantly, lets assume they got a cleric who can cast raise dead even if Redcloak is supposed to be their highest level cleric and that if one of the random hobgobelin would have been a powerfull level 10 cleric, you would realize it during the battle. Lets also assume that they got the diamonds even if they usually just create undead. Lets also assume the other deathless paladin wont come back even if all ghost do. Of course, we also have to assume they would want to get Redcloak corpse back or that hobgobelins actually resurect their leaders when they can do it. Lets also assume they woudnt just elect a new leader and leave the throneroom to Soon.

And, this is more important then anything else I said until now, lets assume there were no AC soldiers left in the castle that could destroy Xykon phylactery even if it was supposed to be their last bastion, that Redcloak just took four legions with him, that both Soon and Xykon seemed absolutely sure that Soon would have no problem at all to find someone to destroy the phylactery and even if Redcloak said the explosion took out most of the remaining humans troops (which imply they were in the castle).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html


So lets assume all that, Xykon and Redcloak are back...but Soon is still there. Round 2? Since Xykon is the only one who can hurt him, I'm still giving that round to Soon.

I dont know why you cant realize that Soon won. Even Xykon and Redcloak in their 'final' moment realized it. Face it Miko fans, Miko saved their life and they are still a threat to the entire world because of her. Of course, thats wasnt what she wanted to do and that act wasnt as stupid and crazy as Shojo murder but she still saved Xykon and Redcloak.

[FujinAkari]

I dont know why you cant realize that Soon won. Even Xykon and Redcloak in their 'final' moment realized it.

Soon won the battle, of that there is no question. What IS under debate is whether or not it would have been a lasting victory. Soon can kill 5 guys a round (unless he has cleave, of which there is no evidence), and it takes (at most) 3 rounds to get in, get Redcloak, and get out. 15 Hobgoblins out of 800... not much of a dent.

And you're right to say that it is only a theory that Soon can't leave the throneroom, but it is a theory which makes sense. Soon himself says that the oath to defend the gate is what binds him to the world, so it seems unlikely that he can fly around wherever he wants. Why wouldn't Ghost-Matyr paladins have helped at the walls and repelled the attack in the first place, if that were an option? As you pointed out, the Ghost-Martyrs would have destroyed the Hobgoblin army, but -none- of them were seen helping anywhere but the Throneroom.

The fact that Soon and Xykon believe it to be a definite possibility that humans will arrive on the scene seems largely irrelevant, as neither of them know a damn thing about the situation outside the throne room. Redcloak, the one who DOES know the situation, is noticeably nonplussed.

As for needing a high level cleric... just use a scroll. Or if a scroll can't be found, Xykon can likely destroy Soon by himself, now that he doesn't have to fight 30 Paladins and 40 Death-Paladins ON TOP of Soon, -and- actually knows how to fight him, so he won't waste all his high level spells on the next go around.

Or maybe Soon does win Round 2, so Xykon regenerates and tries again. Xykon has infinite tries, Soon can only lose once.

I agree that it would take time for Team Evil to win, but I think it would happen eventually.

[fractal]

Or maybe Soon does win Round 2, so Xykon regenerates and tries again. Xykon has infinite tries, Soon can only lose once.
Unfounded assumption. Ghosts tend to reform indefinitely so long as they still have a reason to be bound to the world. Furthermore, the sapphire isn't mobile, and we know Xykon would take a while to implement his plans, likely giving Soon time to return and interrupt any rituals. Finally, Soon tells Miko that "WE will escort you to your destination", implying that the ghost martyrs defeated by Xykon and Redcloak aren't actually gone for good.

If no one carried Xykon's phylactery away, he and the ghost martyrs could continue battling forever.

[David Argall]

This pretty much just lengthens the time involved. A defensive position just can't win if the attacker can keep on attacking. And Xykon would be able to do that. Eventually, he would find a way to chase the paladins off permanently.

[Paragon Badger]

Unfounded assumption. Ghosts tend to reform indefinitely so long as they still have a reason to be bound to the world. Furthermore, the sapphire isn't mobile, and we know Xykon would take a while to implement his plans, likely giving Soon time to return and interrupt any rituals. Finally, Soon tells Miko that "WE will escort you to your destination", implying that the ghost martyrs defeated by Xykon and Redcloak aren't actually gone for good.

If no one carried Xykon's phylactery away, he and the ghost martyrs could continue battling forever.

Xykon was defeating plenty of the ghosts. See how some of them got 'X' eyes and faded away?

Xykon + Redcloak + Hobbo Spellcasters = Enough to win.

As far as the "We will escort you to your destination."- I believe that means they were in the afterlife. The actual afterlife, with no ghostiness clause attached, the kind of afterlife that you need a Ressurection spell to amend.

Do not forget that Xykon is epic level. Desecrating the throne room is a pretty good detterant to 'positive-energy spirits', I'd say.

[stsasser]

...willing to DATE Roy after the inn sequence...

...AFTER she saw Roy as a woman. Maybe just a coincidence, maybe not.

[FujinAkari]

Ghosts tend to reform indefinitely so long as they still have a reason to be bound to the world.

Which is utterly irrelevant, since Soon is not a ghost. You can't just assume some unrelated rule applies merely because you want it too :P

[Spiky]

You have all forgotten something in the Soon vs army debate. Piles of bodies. Eventually, pretty quick actually, the room will have a glut of orange smelliness and no one else will be able to get in. Probably centered on RC's downed body, preventing easy access to get him out. I mean, if Belkar can do it....

Also, perhaps more importantly, none of the lower gobbos are likely to know the significance of the phylactery. Why would they be chasing it down?

[Wixit]

Which is utterly irrelevant, since Soon is not a ghost. You can't just assume some unrelated rule applies merely because you want it too :P

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

"Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard..."

To quote another thread which I readily googled:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43522

I can't see the irrelevance. And, according to the thread I linked, Soon can attempt to destroy the phylactery using Telekinesis, but my knowledge of D&D is limited so I wouldn't know if that could actually work. Hell, if Miko had just waited a bit more she could have done it herself and be a I-saved-the-world hero.

Slightly edited, "googled", not "wiki'd".

[David Argall]

Which is utterly irrelevant, since Soon is not a ghost. You can't just assume some unrelated rule applies merely because you want it too :P

It's a rule that seems to apply here. Just as we take the reasonable position that Soon is harmless except in the throne room, we have to accept that it is reasonable the paladins will follow ghost rules and return to duty.



You have all forgotten something in the Soon vs army debate. Piles of bodies. Eventually, pretty quick actually, the room will have a glut of orange smelliness and no one else will be able to get in.
A mere bother. They throw in some ropes with loops, or just spikes, and start dragging the bodies out. They can likely do so with Redcloak himself and not lose many troops at all.


Also, perhaps more importantly, none of the lower gobbos are likely to know the significance of the phylactery. Why would they be chasing it down?
Redcloak is wearing The RedCloak!! That is an artifact. And in the low chance the Hobgoblin priests don't know this already, the Dark One is sure to tell them. Either way, they are going to get Redcloak's body out of there, and the incidental result of that is the rescue of Xykon. Whether they raise Redcloak or just put the cloak on the highest cleric, the plan is back on track.

[factotum]

Hell, if Miko had just waited a bit more she could have done it herself and be a I-saved-the-world hero.


Actually, Wixit makes a very good point there. Who was in the throne room with perfect opportunity to destroy Xykon's phylactery? Miko! If she'd paid more attention to what Soon was saying rather than the voices in her own head she could have ended the threat of Xykon forever, and even if Redcloak somehow got rezzed after that, he would no longer be in a position to do anything dangerous with the gate.

[FujinAkari]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

"Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard..."

Redcloak explicitly says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) that they aren't ghosts, therefore they cannot be said to follow the same rules.

You will noticed that an evil cleric casting Turn undead should NOT be destroying them, for one thing.


Actually, Wixit makes a very good point there. Who was in the throne room with perfect opportunity to destroy Xykon's phylactery? Miko! If she'd paid more attention to what Soon was saying rather than the voices in her own head she could have ended the threat of Xykon forever, and even if Redcloak somehow got rezzed after that, he would no longer be in a position to do anything dangerous with the gate.

And?

No one is arguing this.

The only thing being argued is whether it was better for Miko to remain in her cell or not, and I posit that if Miko -hadn't- showed up, Team Evil would have taken control of the Gate (eventually)

[Querzis]

Soon won the battle, of that there is no question. What IS under debate is whether or not it would have been a lasting victory. Soon can kill 5 guys a round (unless he has cleave, of which there is no evidence), and it takes (at most) 3 rounds to get in, get Redcloak, and get out. 15 Hobgoblins out of 800... not much of a dent.

I agree that it would take time for Team Evil to win, but I think it would happen eventually.

...You didnt talk about any of the other things I said. First off, they wont come 800 at a time if only because there isnt even enough space in that room for 800 people. They'll come in small group who are still fighting in the castle at first which is more then enough to do a pile of corpse really. There is also the simple fact that hobgobelins are not likely to try to get Redcloak corpse. After all, they didnt try to raise their ancient leader. They could run away, simply dont want to resurect him or elect a new leader, it doesnt matter. As long as they leave the throneroom to Soon (once again assuming he cant leave it) he can destroy Xykon as soon as he regenerate his head again and again. And beside, even if they think about that plan, it wont be before they got lots of mens killed by Soon so that they realize they simply cant beat him (which, once again, is more then enough to do a pile of corpse.)

Secondly, there is the fact that, once again, the castle is their last bastion, Redcloak specifically say the explosion took out most of the remaining humans troops and Redcloak only took four legions. The thought that no humans would get in there before your 800 hobgobelins have the time to pull that off seems just quite ridiculous to me, especially since there is still a resistance going on months after the city was captured and a simple human prisonner only meet 3 hobgobelins on her way to the throne room.

And no, its definitly not irrevelant that ghost come back. They are ghost-martyr made to protect the gate, the thought that they woudnt come back just made their oath irrevelant. Beside its not just ghost, all the incorporeal creature I heard about come back since they are not really on this plane and therefore cant be destroyed for good. Do you really think Xykon and Redcloak just destroyed the souls of the paladins? Because thats the only way they are not coming back. And since the ritual take weeks, even if they somehow defeat Soon, they still wont have the time to do anything before he come back.

Finally Xykon is a sorcerer and a blaster. «He would know the right spell to use for next time»? Do you really think Xykon know a spell that doesnt have a 50% miss chance or that simply wont work on Soon? Or could you simply tell me which spell you are thinking about that could make Xykon win?

Oh and by the «Why wouldn't Ghost-Matyr paladins have helped at the walls and repelled the attack in the first place, if that were an option?» because there is a Lich that wanna control the gate in front of them...Why would they try to help everyone else when Xykon is the only threat to the gate they see and their job is to protect the gate?

[Paragon Badger]

There is also the simple fact that hobgobelins are not likely to try to get Redcloak corpse. After all, they didnt try to raise their ancient leader. They could run away, simply dont want to resurect him or elect a new leader, it doesnt matter.

How soon you've forgotten the hobgoblin who sacrificed himself to save Redcloak...


And no, its definitly not irrevelant that ghost come back. They are ghost-martyr made to protect the gate, the thought that they woudnt come back just made their oath irrevelant. Beside its not just ghost, all the incorporeal creature I heard about come back since they are not really on this plane and therefore cant be destroyed for good. Do you really think Xykon and Redcloak just destroyed the souls of the paladins? Because thats the only way they are not coming back. And since the ritual take weeks, even if they somehow defeat Soon, they still wont have the time to do anything before he come back.

Yes, I do.

There's a ghost haunting some ancestral tomb. It's been given the sole duty of protecting the bodies within.

...Some cleric turns it to oblivion.

Does that make the ghost's oath irrevelant? Yes!

Does that change the fact that it's been utterly destroyed? Sadly, No.

[Querzis]

How soon you've forgotten the hobgoblin who sacrificed himself to save Redcloak....

No I know they protect their Supreme Leader as long as hes alive. I just dont forget that they let their ancient Supreme leader get killed by Redcloak and never resurected him. They never resurected anyone else either, not even the general.


Yes, I do.

There's a ghost haunting some ancestral tomb. It's been given the sole duty of protecting the bodies within.

...Some cleric turns it to oblivion.

Does that make the ghost's oath irrevelant? Yes!

Does that change the fact that it's been utterly destroyed? Sadly, No.


Now I gotta say I dont know if that was supposed to be sarcasm or if you just said that to argue. No a ghost whos haunting some ancestral tomb wont get their soul destroyed if a cleric cast them into oblivion and will come back after a few days. Thats how D&D work. They come back after 2d4 days because of a special ability called rejuvenation. FujinAkari is just arguing that its not because they are called «ghost-martyr» and are incorporeal that they are submitted to the same rule as normal ghost and that they have rejuvenation. But since all incorporeal creature that I ever heard about do come back since they are not really in the mortal plane and therefore cant be destroyed by someone on the mortal plane, I'm saying they will come back even if they are not really 'ghost'.

And once again someone argue about two lines in my entire post and ignore the rest. Even though the most important part is still that its just ridiculous to think no humans would enter the throneroom before the hobgobelins realize Redcloak is dead, organize themselves and send a hundred hobgobelins all at once to get his corpse back back (assuming they even know where he is). Hell, this is D&D so Soon could force a hobgobelin to do it by talking to him if he got some rank in diplomacy, intimidation or bluff.

[Wixit]

Redcloak explicitly says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) that they aren't ghosts, therefore they cannot be said to follow the same rules.

You will noticed that an evil cleric casting Turn undead should NOT be destroying them, for one thing.

And?

No one is arguing this.

The only thing being argued is whether it was better for Miko to remain in her cell or not, and I posit that if Miko -hadn't- showed up, Team Evil would have taken control of the Gate (eventually)

Unless, as pointed out in the thread I linked, they're these "deathless". Redcloak wasn't specific beside saying they're probably ripped off some other campaign setting, and according to post #3 in http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=857201 , it's a jab at Eberron, which featured this type of creature.

In any case, there are two ways of looking at the situation:
1. by the book. Which begs the question what is Soon anyway. I'm assuming deathless, but if you can find an incorporeal which isn't a ghost, I'll concede.
2. by logic, in which case "if it looks like a ghost, talks like a ghost and floats like a ghost, it's a ghost".

Back to the topic at hand. Miko getting some wouldn't have prevented the disaster because of a single reason - Belkar. She would never tolerate a creature as evil and full of hate as him to be free, and seeing Shojo set him free would not reinforce her belief in the good of her lord.

[FujinAkari]

And once again someone argue about two lines in my entire post and ignore the rest. Even though the most important part is still that its just ridiculous to think no humans would enter the throneroom before the hobgobelins realize Redcloak is dead, organize themselves and send a hundred hobgobelins all at once to get his corpse back back (assuming they even know where he is). Hell, this is D&D so Soon could force a hobgobelin to do it by talking to him if he got some rank in diplomacy, intimidation or bluff.

It is very easily assumed that the Hobgoblins will realize that Redcloak is dead, there are some watching the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) (and remember, Miko isn't there to kill the one who wasn't going to go in).

So we have the following:

1) The Hobgoblins have All the Entrances Guarded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)
2) The Hobgoblins are watching the fight
3) Redcloak is wearing the Hobgoblin equivalent to the Holy Grail.

Yeah, sorry, but you are -crazy- to assume they wouldn't try and get him back, pretty much immediately. Soon could stop some of them, but can only attack a max of 5 times per round, and thats IF the Hobs are dumb enough to stop within his full attack range. If he has to move, its only twice per round, counting the AoE.

[Querzis]

It is very easily assumed that the Hobgoblins will realize that Redcloak is dead, there are some watching the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) (and remember, Miko isn't there to kill the one who wasn't going to go in).

So we have the following:

1) The Hobgoblins have All the Entrances Guarded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)
2) The Hobgoblins are watching the fight
3) Redcloak is wearing the Hobgoblin equivalent to the Holy Grail.

Yeah, sorry, but you are -crazy- to assume they wouldn't try and get him back, pretty much immediately. Soon could stop some of them, but can only attack a max of 5 times per round, and thats IF the Hobs are dumb enough to stop within his full attack range. If he has to move, its only twice per round, counting the AoE.

:smallsigh: Fine lets do some math since it seems you absolutely want to.

First off, we apparently assume Soon doesnt have remove paralysis, break enchantment or remove curse (in which case he just free O-chul and O-chul do it). Now the thought that a paladin like Soon didnt go through his daily 1 hour of prayer and meditation is just laughable but lets say there is a 10% chance he didnt. Now then, as an epic paladin he got 3 spells of each levels and the three spells which all work on lich paralysis are all in different levels. If I had 9 spells I would take at the very least one of those, probably break enchantment since it work on so many things. But I'll just say there is 30% chance he doesnt have a single one of those spells. So 60% he can free O-chul.

Then we still have to assume Soon cant leave the throne room, I think you can at least agree that if he can, its easy for him to go look for a human while killing every hobgobelins on the way (including the 3 hobgobelins watching the battle). I dont see why you think it would make that much sense for them to not be able to leave the throneroom. There is a lich in front of them so of course they try to kill him before leaving the throneroom but otherwise I see absolutely no logic behind that. And there is also the fact that even after the throneroom was destroyed, Soon could still talk to Miko a few rounds before going back to Celestia. Still, I'm a nice guy so I'm giving you 60% chance he cant leave the throneroom.

Now then, the chance no humans soldiers enter the throneroom while the 3 hobgobelins get help. Since its their last bastion, since they specifically say the explosion took out most of the remaining humans soldiers (and there is still enough remaining humans to form three freaking resistance group), since both Xykon and Redcloak seems to think its over in their 'final' moment, since the only hobgobelins guarding the throne room are the ones who have to go get help, since Redcloak did the really smart move of putting a blade barrier on the entrance which means they wont get reinforcement for a while and since Redcloak only took four legions (most of which are still in the courtyard as said in comic 456 and cant enter the castle right now because of Redcloak smart move)...in other word, since there should be a lot damn more humans left inside the castle then hobgobelins. Honestly I dont see how it could happen, especially since anyone with a listen check worth a damn would hear Soon screaming to come in the throne room, but I'll be kind. I'm giving you a 15% chance no humans enter the throneroom before the 3 hobgobelins watching the battle come back with more people.

Now the chance they wont try to get Redcloak body back? I'll just say 90% chance they try to get him back and call it a day since you seems absolutely sure the hobgobelins cleric know what the Crimson mantle is supposed to be and that the hobgobelins cleric are actually cleric of the Dark One (in which case, Redcloak would have become the hobgobelins Supreme leader as soon as they saw him but whatever. I'll just assume you are right even if I dont have any reason to.)

Now the chance Soon cant just force a hobgobelins to do it. He just need a few rank in either diplomacy, bluff or intimidation to do it. Now I dont think a paladin got bluff but I think a guy who ruled a paladin order for such a long time must have a few ranks in diplomacy and/or intimidation. But Rich usually try to put some logic in his comic about D&D rules so I'm giving you a 85% chance he cant do that.

Now, the chance Soon will have the time to prepare the spell to free O-chul before the hobgobelins come back. It just take 1 hours after all. He got at least 25% chance of getting the right spell in time.

Now, the chance Soon wont hold/scare them off. There is one entrance, I dont think more then two people could enter at the same time. If Soon stay in front of the entrance, it become blocked by corpse real fast and if they ever get Redcloak corpse, he just kill the one who carry it which once again make a pile of corpse real fast but lets assume Soon is dumb and wont do that (yes, I know hes pretty smart but I'm giving you a chance here). 90% chance he wont be able to keep them from getting Redcloak corpse.

Now, the chance they resurect Redcloak. As I said, they never did until now so I dont see why they woudnt just elect a new leader and get on with it. but I'll just say there is a 90% chance they will.

Now then, the infamous round two. For that round, the hobgobelins army is still totally irrevelant since they cant hurt Soon...at all. Hell they cant even hurt the other paladins which should mostly be back by then (unless Xykon is really lucky on his d10 roll and come back after one day). If hes smart (and he is) Redcloak wont enter the room just to lose another level, especially since Soon will target him first and Redcloak doesnt have damage reduction like Xykon so he would die fast. Sorcerer have limited spells and therefore, Xykon is really unlikely to have anything that doesnt have a 50% miss chance on Soon. Knowing Xykon there is a 30% he'll get bored of getting destroyed and just go to another gate. Especially since he really dont like being helpless while he regenerate.

And then, since the ritual take weeks, I hope you can at least agree that if Soon come back they got no chance of ever getting the gate. Even if Soon doesnt kill Xykon everytime he come back, he will still screw up the ritual and he can kill Redcloak a god damn lot faster then Xykon so if hes in the room (and since hes the one doing the ritual he should be) Redcloak will lose level after level. And that just Soon, even low level paladin can kill Redcloak (he was one smite evil from inconscience just by turning them even though Xykon had already killed most of them). Now for the chance they cant come back...it should be be 0% since incorporeal creatures cant be destroyed by someone on the mortal plane and they still have to protect the gate. But I'll be gentle and give you 10%.

Please remember that I have been really nice on all those numbers:
60% chance of healing O-chul (and then O-chul destroy it)
40% chance of leaving the throne room
85% chance of a human entering the throneroom
15% chance of forcing a hobgobelins to do it
10% chance of not going back in the throneroom
25% chance of getting the spell to free O-chul in time.
10% chance of holding the hobgobelins
10% chance of not resurecting Redcloak
30% chance of just going to another gate
90% chance of ghost just coming back

I wont bother to calculate all of this but I would say that give like what, less then 1% chance of both Redcloak and Xykon coming back? And easely 98% chance of both of them being destroyed? And thats not counting the fact that, even if I was kind on those numbers, you still gave me absolutely no real reason why I shoudnt think there is 100% chance the ghost will come back and that a human will enter the throne room. And I'm crazy?

And please, this time, if you reply to this post, dont just argue about two or three lines in my entire post, its getting annoying.

[David Argall]

:First off, we apparently assume Soon doesnt have remove paralysis, break enchantment or remove curse (in which case he just free O-chul and O-chul do it).
Serious point. Break Enchantment is a 4th level paladin spell and Soon would be able to cast it several times a day. He likely does not have it today, but once we assume he kills Xykon and Redcloak, we don't expect them to be removed from the room at all soon. So he will almost certainly be able to free O'Chul, and with a fairly good chance of doing so in time to destroy Redcloak's holy symbol.


Then we still have to assume Soon cant leave the throne room, I think you can at least agree that if he can, its easy for him to go look for a human while killing every hobgobelins on the way (including the 3 hobgobelins watching the battle). I dont see why you think it would make that much sense for them to not be able to leave the throneroom.
The ethos of a guardian spirit is routinely that it is tied to one rather small spot. Soon is there to guard the gate, so he has to stay near the gate. So the odds here are very high he is stuck in the room.


Now then, the chance no humans soldiers enter the throneroom while the 3 hobgobelins get help. Since its their last bastion, since they specifically say the explosion took out most of the remaining humans soldiers (and there is still enough remaining humans to form three freaking resistance group), since both Xykon and Redcloak seems to think its over in their 'final' moment, since the only hobgobelins guarding the throne room are the ones who have to go get help, since Redcloak did the really smart move of putting a blade barrier on the entrance which means they wont get reinforcement for a while and since Redcloak only took four legions (most of which are still in the courtyard as said in comic 456 and cant enter the castle right now because of Redcloak smart move)...in other word, since there should be a lot damn more humans left inside the castle then hobgobelins.
Total speculation. The humans in the castle, if any, would have already have retreated to the throne room, or can't. The castle is swarming with hobgoblins and the humans can't move around at will. [The resistance forces are formed out of retreating troops, not any that were in the castle.]


Please remember that I have been really nice on all those numbers:
Not at all, and in most cases you are badly reaching. However, one good argument [That he can use O-Chul] makes up for a lot of bad ones.

So we find the hobs need to get Redcloak out of there right away, and there is a good chance they will stand back and make plans for a day or two.

[Querzis]

Serious point. Break Enchantment is a 4th level paladin spell and Soon would be able to cast it several times a day. He likely does not have it today, but once we assume he kills Xykon and Redcloak, we don't expect them to be removed from the room at all soon. So he will almost certainly be able to free O'Chul, and with a fairly good chance of doing so in time to destroy Redcloak's holy symbol.


The ethos of a guardian spirit is routinely that it is tied to one rather small spot. Soon is there to guard the gate, so he has to stay near the gate. So the odds here are very high he is stuck in the room.


Total speculation. The humans in the castle, if any, would have already have retreated to the throne room, or can't. The castle is swarming with hobgoblins and the humans can't move around at will. [The resistance forces are formed out of retreating troops, not any that were in the castle.]


Not at all, and in most cases you are badly reaching. However, one good argument [That he can use O-Chul] makes up for a lot of bad ones.

So we find the hobs need to get Redcloak out of there right away, and there is a good chance they will stand back and make plans for a day or two.

And of course what does he do right after I tell everyone please dont reply to just two or three lines in my post? He reply to three lines in my post, thats just plain great.

Anyway, so the fact that they specifically say that the explosion took out most of the humans troops is pure speculation while the fact that he cant leave the throne room even if Soon actually left the throneroom (after it was destroyed to talk to Miko) and that actual ghost can as well as any creatures I ever heard off who got an intelligence score is apparently not total specualtion, thats even better. You also might want to notice that when Nale escaped, only a few minutes before Miko blew up everything, he had to fight at least two humans soldiers to get to Sabine and Thog and that, once again, they cant get any reinforcement thanks to blade barrier. Oh and by the way, yes I know the resistance are mainly formed with the troops that retreated since the castle, you know, kinda exploded.

And of course you still dont talk about the fact that ghost as well as any incorporeal creature I ever heard about come back.

Man I'm getting tired of this. I'll just forget this thread exist because if I get any other reply like David just did I'm gonna snap. By the way FujinAkari, this isnt directed toward you, even if I think you are wrong, your argument make sense and are based on fact (though it annoys me that you also ignore my other arguments.)

[Calinero]

Assuming that everything about Miko was the same, except for the fact that she decided to go out with Roy, I do not think the relationship would have worked at all. The same flaws that Roy noticed later would have become apparent. Even Roy, through his testosterone shrouded gaze, would have seen this fairly quickly. It would not have ended well. After that, it would be entirely possible that, in addition to her 'divine fury', the Order of the Stick would also have to contend with the fury of a woman scorned that hell hath none of.

[FujinAkari]

First off, we apparently assume Soon doesnt have remove paralysis, break enchantment or remove curse (in which case he just free O-chul and O-chul do it). Now the thought that a paladin like Soon didnt go through his daily 1 hour of prayer and meditation is just laughable but lets say there is a 10% chance he didnt. Now then, as an epic paladin he got 3 spells of each levels and the three spells which all work on lich paralysis are all in different levels. If I had 9 spells I would take at the very least one of those, probably break enchantment since it work on so many things. But I'll just say there is 30% chance he doesnt have a single one of those spells. So 60% he can free O-chul.

This is actually a really good argument, I had, to be honest, forgotten Ochul was there. However, there is still a distinct possibility that Soon did not prepare break enchantment and like spells today (being that he is immune to them and, judging from his arrival, may not be able to appear until the final defense has fell.) Thus, when preparing for battle, it seems likely that O-chul felt the spell unimportant. Still, as David mentioned, this gives the Hobs only one day to save Redcloak's corpse.


Then we still have to assume Soon cant leave the throne room, I think you can at least agree that if he can, its easy for him to go look for a human while killing every hobgobelins on the way (including the 3 hobgobelins watching the battle). I dont see why you think it would make that much sense for them to not be able to leave the throneroom. There is a lich in front of them so of course they try to kill him before leaving the throneroom but otherwise I see absolutely no logic behind that. And there is also the fact that even after the throneroom was destroyed, Soon could still talk to Miko a few rounds before going back to Celestia. Still, I'm a nice guy so I'm giving you 60% chance he cant leave the throneroom.

Soon says that his oath to 'defend the gate' is what ties him to the world. It isn't much of a leap in logic to assume that this means that he isn't able to abandon the gate to go elsewhere. As for Miko, he is actively seen fading in every frame. Yes, it is convenient that he had a chance to talk to her, but he certainly doesn't seem in control of the amount of time he has.


Now then, the chance no humans soldiers enter the throneroom while the 3 hobgobelins get help. Since its their last bastion, since they specifically say the explosion took out most of the remaining humans soldiers (and there is still enough remaining humans to form three freaking resistance group),

You've mentioned this a few times, but I can't find anywhere where they specifically say the explosion took out most of the remaining human soldiers. The closest I find is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html), but that doesn't make any distinction in the numbers.


since both Xykon and Redcloak seems to think its over in their 'final' moment,

Xykon likely believes Soon's expectation of how easy a human will be acquired, as he is unaware of the situation beyond the throneroom (It should be noted that Redcloak doesn't seem remotely concerned at Soon's threat of reinforcement.)

Redcloak, by contrast, thinks he's about to die. He doesn't think beyond that. Unlike Xykon, Death still has meaning for him.


since the only hobgobelins guarding the throne room are the ones who have to go get help, since Redcloak did the really smart move of putting a blade barrier on the entrance which means they wont get reinforcement for a while

Blade Barrier will only last for 13 minutes, it may already be gone. If not, it won't be -that- long to wait. If Soon can free O-chul, its over, if not then the 13 minutes become meaningless.


and since Redcloak only took four legions (most of which are still in the courtyard as said in comic 456 and cant enter the castle right now because of Redcloak smart move)...in other word, since there should be a lot damn more humans left inside the castle then hobgobelins.

Possibly, I still can't find this comic you keep referencing telling us how the castle was chock-full of Soldiers.


Now the chance they wont try to get Redcloak body back? I'll just say 90% chance they try to get him back and call it a day since you seems absolutely sure the hobgobelins cleric know what the Crimson mantle is supposed to be and that the hobgobelins cleric are actually cleric of the Dark One (in which case, Redcloak would have become the hobgobelins Supreme leader as soon as they saw him but whatever. I'll just assume you are right even if I dont have any reason to.)

Start of Darkness does not leave this to question.

The Dark One is explicitly shown to lead an army of goblins and hobgoblins. When he ascended, he became god of Goblinkind. Redcloak himself states that the Hobgoblins are his followers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) the same as Goblins. Thus, it is very clear that the Hobgoblins follow the Dark One.


Now the chance Soon cant just force a hobgobelins to do it. He just need a few rank in either diplomacy, bluff or intimidation to do it. Now I dont think a paladin got bluff but I think a guy who ruled a paladin order for such a long time must have a few ranks in diplomacy and/or intimidation. But Rich usually try to put some logic in his comic about D&D rules so I'm giving you a 85% chance he cant do that.

Diplomacy is right out. It takes 10 minutes, and by the time you actually succeeded on a diplomacy check to get one guy to indifferent, there would likely be many more who had showed up. Heck, it would take a half hour just to get the three hobs we -know- are there, and thats assuming the other two don't react until they get their diplomacy check.

Intimidate has possibilities... but considering how willing the Hobgoblins were to die for Redcloak, I find it doubtful that Soon can intimidate them. He can't torture them, and they are willing to die already.


Now, the chance Soon will have the time to prepare the spell to free O-chul before the hobgobelins come back. It just take 1 hours after all. He got at least 25% chance of getting the right spell in time.


A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Soon cannot prepare his spells until the time comes, he can't simply choose to do it now.


Now, the chance Soon wont hold/scare them off. There is one entrance, I dont think more then two people could enter at the same time. If Soon stay in front of the entrance, it become blocked by corpse real fast and if they ever get Redcloak corpse, he just kill the one who carry it which once again make a pile of corpse real fast but lets assume Soon is dumb and wont do that (yes, I know hes pretty smart but I'm giving you a chance here). 90% chance he wont be able to keep them from getting Redcloak corpse.

We come to the same problem. Soon can likely guard the door and keep them at bay, at least for a time. If he can free O-chul, its over. If he -can't-, then he likely will have to hold them until the next morning (typical prayer time in D&D settings). As time passes, the likelihood of an authority figure appearing increases, particularly that of the General who was in the courtyard, whom Redcloak held in such regard.


Now, the chance they resurect Redcloak. As I said, they never did until now so I dont see why they woudnt just elect a new leader and get on with it. but I'll just say there is a 90% chance they will.

They don't need to resurrect Redcloak, merely getting him (and his holy symbol) out of the throneroom suffices. Xykon will be able to safely return and -he- can make sure Redcloak is resurrected.


Now then, the infamous round two. For that round, the hobgobelins army is still totally irrevelant since they cant hurt Soon...at all. Hell they cant even hurt the other paladins which should mostly be back by then (unless Xykon is really lucky on his d10 roll and come back after one day). If hes smart (and he is) Redcloak wont enter the room just to lose another level, especially since Soon will target him first and Redcloak doesnt have damage reduction like Xykon so he would die fast. Sorcerer have limited spells and therefore, Xykon is really unlikely to have anything that doesnt have a 50% miss chance on Soon. Knowing Xykon there is a 30% he'll get bored of getting destroyed and just go to another gate. Especially since he really dont like being helpless while he regenerate.

I disagree with you here. Redcloak and Xykon did -pretty- well going in blind. Round 2 Redcloak would know -exactly- what he was up against. His troops would have blessed weapons, and thus would be able to provide some assistance, and Redcloak himself cast Forbiddence upon the room before going in, which would effectively make the entire Paladin-defense force immobile, as well as preventing their return.


And then, since the ritual take weeks, I hope you can at least agree that if Soon come back they got no chance of ever getting the gate. Even if Soon doesnt kill Xykon everytime he come back, he will still screw up the ritual and he can kill Redcloak a god damn lot faster then Xykon so if hes in the room (and since hes the one doing the ritual he should be) Redcloak will lose level after level. And that just Soon, even low level paladin can kill Redcloak (he was one smite evil from inconscience just by turning them even though Xykon had already killed most of them). Now for the chance they cant come back...it should be be 0% since incorporeal creatures cant be destroyed by someone on the mortal plane and they still have to protect the gate. But I'll be gentle and give you 10%.

As mentioned, Forbiddance will prevent their return, since it blocks all Ethereal movement (and Incorporeal creatures cannot fully leave the Ethereal Plane). Even without it, since Soon et all are Positive Energy creatures, Unhallowing the area might also prevent them from reforming, though the second one is arguable.


And please, this time, if you reply to this post, dont just argue about two or three lines in my entire post, its getting annoying.

I did delete your math-work, since I think your numbers are wrong, hope you don't mind :P.

Ultimately, we end up in a situation where, as I see it, Soon can win -if- he had the foresight to prepare himself to break O-chul out. If not, then Redcloak should be able to win round 2, assuming the Hobgoblin General does in fact get him out of the room before the next morning.

I will admit it isn't as overwhelmingly likely as I originally assumed, though I still think Miko's presence was better than nothing.


while the fact that he cant leave the throne room even if Soon actually left the throneroom (after it was destroyed to talk to Miko)

This came from your responce to Arguile, so I am being am just pulling out a snippit, as I can't respond -for- him. I just wanted to note that Soon is seen -right next- to the shattered throne when talking to Miko. The same throne that held the gate a few moments before. It really isn't unreasonable that Soon would appear right next to the thing he was defending :)

[factotum]

This is actually a really good argument, I had, to be honest, forgotten Ochul was there. However, there is still a distinct possibility that Soon did not prepare break enchantment and like spells today (being that he is immune to them and, judging from his arrival, may not be able to appear until the final defense has fell.)

I think that line of reasoning is a little unlikely. Soon knew the enemy he would be facing, and it beggars belief that he would not have prepared at least one spell capable of breaking paralysis; after all, he knows he's likely to be facing a lich! It's not like he has much else useful he could be doing with his spell slots.

[FujinAkari]

I think that line of reasoning is a little unlikely. Soon knew the enemy he would be facing, and it beggars belief that he would not have prepared at least one spell capable of breaking paralysis; after all, he knows he's likely to be facing a lich! It's not like he has much else useful he could be doing with his spell slots.

What evidence is there that Soon was aware what enemy he would be facing? It seems to me, judging from the fact that Soon didn't arrive until after all the Paladins were dead, that he wasn't actually active until the gate was directly threatened (by O-chul).

Else why wait?