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Quxelopqr
2008-03-31, 06:44 PM
So I'm about to join a group that's already going on, and from what the dm told me he thinks they'll want me to play a caster (I'm fine with playing anything so long as I get to play, and am going to ask the current party what they feel their group lacks so I can fill that role). My question is, I have very little experience with casters as a whole (I played a half fey sorceror once) and I'm scared I'll overpower the rest of the group since all I hear is how uber casters are. Is there a good way/suggestions to play a caster (probably either a cleric or wizard, maybe a sorceror) as balenced and not overpowering?

Gorbash
2008-03-31, 07:24 PM
Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085).

This will be your Bible from now on.

AmberVael
2008-03-31, 07:25 PM
If you don't know how to overpower with casters, it's pretty unlikely that you will be able to overpower someone with a caster unless you really stop and make a thorough examination of every part of the class.
However.
If you're looking for more balanced, and you are inexperienced with casters, I suggest a Sorcerer. Sorcerers can fill the role of caster easily enough while not being as all powerful as a wizard- and you have to worry less about rationing out certain spells in certain amounts at certain times. You have more magic per day and less preparation requirements.
Avoid overuse of save or die spells, and more on just boosting and enhancing your allies. It won't make you less powerful, but it will make others feel just as useful while you are effective. Empowering the party is a role that detracts from no one's experience.
Still, toss in a direct damage spell or some direct attack spells against enemies just so you can add in your own dose of win every once in a while (because it is just FUN to light things on fire sometimes).

^: He said NOT overpowering- IE, as in balanced with the rest of the party. Batman is how to make wizards as best you can (without cheese) so I don't think it is what he's looking for.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 07:25 PM
...what? You aren't good at playing them and you think you'll overpower it? No, I think you'll do just fine. It does take some work to find the really powerful combinations of spells. it doesn't just happen.

Now, I can help you with your build a bit, but first I need you to repeat after me: casters are more powerful, but not overpowered, with the exception of certain circumstances that require work to do.

You can make any caster at any power level you want, it's just that the big five have more of an opportunity to be overpowered than some.

Now: what do you want to do.

EDIT: Curse the ninja(s)!

nerulean
2008-03-31, 07:31 PM
Casters are the easiest classes to make overpowered because spells give you the most possible options to make them overpowered with. A caster on its own isn't inherently overpowered. Play whatever you think will be enjoyable.

If you want to make sure you're useful to the party, then reading the guide to being Batman isn't a bad idea- something the Batman wizard is perfectly capable of doing is leaving the kills to other members of the party, and even if you just take a few spell ideas off it then you won't end up doing the entire adventure by yourself.

If you don't want to borrow anyone else's advice as to how to play the class, then read spells carefully and consider effects to them other than the obvious ones. Fireball, for example, doesn't really have any, but a Solid Fog has a lot of little knock-on effects that aren't mentioned in the spell description if you think about it in actual situations.

Gorbash
2008-03-31, 07:32 PM
I actually cannot believe I didn't got ninja'd. I enlightened one soul to the teachings of LN. Like someone did it to me. I think I will cry.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 07:33 PM
There are enough buff spells out there that you could pretty much entirely fill a sorcerer's list with them. Between buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control spells, you can fill out a very strong list. Just steer away from the save-or-die spells, and maybe the direct damage, and you'll leave your party feeling useful.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 07:35 PM
^: He said NOT overpowering- IE, as in balanced with the rest of the party. Batman is how to make wizards as best you can (without cheese) so I don't think it is what he's looking for.

TLN's particular guide is a great way to play with the party, and let them think they are doing all the work, it heavily focuses on impairing enemies so that your applies can take care of them, but can feel like they did all the work.

Quxelopqr
2008-03-31, 08:03 PM
I'm still not sure what I'll be playing (I might end up as a cleric), but I was told I'd be coming in at around 11th level. I was good enough as the sorceror to kill things (but my dm in that campaign gave magic items to people who roleplayed well, and my character was fun to roleplay- imagine being the 19 year old kid who's mom is forced to 'marry' the pit fiend that killed your father), but I don't think I overoptimised (mostly a blaster).

I'm not so much concerned with being useful as the party apparently lacks casting characters, but I think that at 11th level I won't be too bad, and might actually be needed (the dm told me he likes to give his party some crazy encounters, he showed me the one for the fight before my character's introduced-it was nuts).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-31, 08:27 PM
Consider playing a Beguiler the skill monkey caster in the box. Really nice if you can take the Precocious Apprentice feat trick for Scorching Ray at first level to fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst although an Arcane Disciple Fire domain would work better for a L11 PC. Some general magical blasting with general spell utility.

A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer could be fun with a reserve feat for general blasting and a basic spell list to taste.

An Erudite with the Spells to Power variant could be interesting particularly with the Hidden Talent feat for an always availble power plus 7 daily usable powers from the known PC Erudite powers. Really nice with a +1 ECL race like a Dragon magazine Darksun human.

I like using a variant (Non Evil) of Ur Priests as Servants of the Fallen basically Cultmasters or Evangelists for a fallen, forgotten, imprisoned or slumbering DR1 Demi-power or Incarnate or recently raised Saint of a more established power. Can build an interesting PC with the first 5 levels and have spellcasting comparable to regular full casters at L11. This can be fun since the PC has no formal religious organization in game for support and can lead to DM side treks for the power which may not make any sense to the PCs.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 08:30 PM
Hmm, then I think a druid, archivist, wizard, or artificer would be best. Cleric might work. Well, do you want to be able to fill any caster role? Or just one and just not have the other ones? Cause if it's the second one a nice buffer cleric build would be greatly appreciated by your other party members. They always seem to like +3 to all saves and attacks and AC. That's just two spells.

Quxelopqr
2008-03-31, 08:39 PM
Of those I do not have the book for artificer or archivist, so I think I'll end up being a cleric or wizard (probably the wizard). I'm thinking of making a good-aligned one, specializing in maybe abjuration and banning necromancy and something else, maybe evocation? Or would that nerf me too much?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-31, 08:43 PM
Consider something like a CG with a Beguiler -1, (Abjurer -4, Wild Mage -1), Ultimate Magus -5. Take the Practiced Spellcaster feat for the Beguiler side. The level dip in Wild Mage lets you apply the +5 CL to Abjurer and the +3 CL to Beguiler. The Beguiler side will allow some meta fueling wizard Empower spells if the Empower feat is taken and the Wizard spells will allow Quickening the Beguiler spells if the feat is taken. Base "Spell" casting shoud be Beguiler -4, Abjurer -10 before applying the UM arcane power to raise caster level.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 08:47 PM
You kidding? Banning evocation? A nerf? Hah! Don't make me laugh! But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban. And you could be a focused specialist or a master specialist (or both!). MS abjurer is pretty strong.

If you want to continue on the path of wizard, someone else will have to help you, I'm not experienced with them. If you decide cleric or druid I can help you out some more (I've made a pretty mean protection cleric in my day).

Quxelopqr
2008-03-31, 08:57 PM
Well I'm open to cleric advice, I've never played one before and if that's what the party needs, that's what I'll be playing. Could be fun stuff too.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 09:12 PM
I have fun playing my RSoP. It's too bad the game is on indefinite hiatus.

I'm going to let you decide what you want to play first. And don't bother looking to the party, they can easily live with whatever you pick. They might appreciate a divine caster a bit more for the healing potential. Also, is psionics available? 'Cause that is the third option: divine, arcane, psionic.

So...what do you want to play?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 09:17 PM
Well I'm open to cleric advice, I've never played one before and if that's what the party needs, that's what I'll be playing. Could be fun stuff too.

Try a cleric-archer. If you can be a human and take the War domain for a "cause" (defense of the innocent) and say it has the Longbow as a favored weapon, that's one way; another is being an Elf and taking the Elf domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_Elfdomain&alpha=), which gives you Point Blank Shot for free.

As an elf you then take Point Blank Shot at 1, Rapid Shot at 3, and Zen Archery (CWarrior) at 6 and Quicken at 9 (unless you have access to Complete Champion, in which case you take the Holy Warrior reserve feat at 9).
As a human you just take Point Blank and Precise at 1, and possibly Zen at 3/Rapid Shot at 6 (depends on the DEX/WIS disparity).

You have buffs like Greater Magic Weapon for your bow and Divine Favor for yourself; you can stay at range and do a lot of spellcasting but also be a great archer.

FinalJustice
2008-03-31, 09:21 PM
Please avoid the GMW + Divine Power + Righteous Might + Smashing Stuff With Thy Hole Mace way, every time someone does this, God kills a fighter. Please, think of the fighters.

Quxelopqr
2008-03-31, 09:23 PM
Oh, I'm definetly not being a clericzilla, I don't know the players well enough to completely screw them over, and wouldn't do that anyways. The archer sounds fun if I pick cleric. Thanks for all the help!

AmberVael
2008-03-31, 09:27 PM
TLN's particular guide is a great way to play with the party, and let them think they are doing all the work, it heavily focuses on impairing enemies so that your applies can take care of them, but can feel like they did all the work.

I don't agree. Enabling your party to be more effective allows them to feel that they did all the work- impairing the enemy to the extent a wizard is capable of makes you feel like you're putting down a maimed puppy instead of defeating the BBEG that threatened the world with destruction by his overly large adamantine sword.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 09:30 PM
EDIT: Awh you deleted the first one. Now I feel bad.

AmberVael
2008-03-31, 09:31 PM
I misread the first time and thought I caught it before I posted it. :smalltongue:
Lies! Lies! I am real! I exist!

holywhippet
2008-03-31, 09:32 PM
You could try playing as a bard. They are a caster class, but their spells are mainly focused on helping out the party rather than blowing monsters to pieces. They have a heap of other useful tricks as well like knowledge and bard songs.

streakster
2008-03-31, 09:40 PM
You kidding? Banning evocation? A nerf? Hah! Don't make me laugh! But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban. And you could be a focused specialist or a master specialist (or both!). MS abjurer is pretty strong.

If you want to continue on the path of wizard, someone else will have to help you, I'm not experienced with them. If you decide cleric or druid I can help you out some more (I've made a pretty mean protection cleric in my day).

Necromancy isn't buffs, it's debuffs. Transmutation is the buff powerhouse.

"Hey, Fighter!"
"Yes?"
"You're a dragon now."
"Awesome!"

dman11235
2008-03-31, 09:47 PM
You could do the melee mace wielding holy guy without shaming the fighter you know. It is possible (I've done it). Just focus on buffing the party and keeping them alive first, and THEN go whack things. The RSoP I was playing? Just that. He would buff the party, make sure no one is dying, and then hit something, or step into a position to block enemies off from hurting the party. The primary melee did most of the work though. Dang, this is really making me want to play that campaign again.

Archer clerics are fun I've heard. I have yet to play my raptoran cleric so I have yet to find out for myself.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 10:17 PM
But don't ban necro if you want to buff (I think, arcanists are not my strong suit, clerics are). Enchantment and evoc are the two I'd ban.Enchantment is more important than necromancy for buffs. The only core necromancy buff spell is False Life, and that's self only (there are a few in other books, but I think they're mostly personal, too). Enchantment, meanwhile, has Heroism and Greater Heroism, which are among my favorite buff spells, as well as Rage.

But evocation is a double whammy: It infringes on the fighters' specialty (hit point damage), and it's not actually that useful. Definitely ban evo if you're going wizard.

Crow
2008-03-31, 10:21 PM
Selfish buffers can be a major source of group unhappiness when it comes to casters, especially when combat starts.

Buff the group first. They get to be more awesome, which benefits the entire team. Most buffs can be done before combat even begins, so you still get to do your thing when things go down.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 10:27 PM
@Chrono (and the other guy who brought it up): That's why I said I'm no expert when it comes to arcanists.

@Crow: And that's why I suggested my cleric buffer (or I'll second the bard/dragon shaman/marshal option, I just like clerics).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 10:34 PM
Or you can Sorcerzilla. It's where you buy various rings of Wizardry, and slap so many extended Heroics on yourself followed by a Greater Heroism and whatever else you can think of, followed by Polymorph (or not it's your choice) And overland flight and a few other important buffs, and then run around Ubercharging with a Spiked Chain and Robilar's Gambiting, and Karmic Striking, and Tripping, and Stand Stilling.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 10:37 PM
And 1) how are you getting the spells known to do this, and 2) the feats and 3) the stacking of morale bonuses?

Reinboom
2008-03-31, 10:56 PM
I don't agree. Enabling your party to be more effective allows them to feel that they did all the work- impairing the enemy to the extent a wizard is capable of makes you feel like you're putting down a maimed puppy instead of defeating the BBEG that threatened the world with destruction by his overly large adamantine sword.

The guide in question did me a different service:
Showing me the top limits as to let me avoid them.

My logic is more like:
(bad situation)
DM: "Don't be overpowered."
Me: "What's overpowered?"
DM: "Making your party feel of less worth, taking over the spotlight."
Me: "Ok... but... when's that? How do I be overpowered?"
DM: "... I said don't be."
Me: "...er..."

(good situation)
DM: "Don't be overpowered."
Me: "What's overpowered?"
DM: *shows batman guide, and various char op board threads*
Me: "Ok, I won't be those."
DM: "Thank you."



So, I apply this to the suggestions as well.
Read why casters are overpowering, and then don't do that. The guide linked at the top is a great start.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 11:28 PM
And 1) how are you getting the spells known to do this, and 2) the feats and 3) the stacking of morale bonuses?Note that Heroics is a different spell from Heroism. Heroism gives a +2 morale bonus to a bunch of rolls; Heroics gives the target temporary use of a fighter bonus feat. So he's not trying to stack morale bonuses, since he's only getting them from Greater Heroism, and he's getting all of those feats from a bunch of castings of Heroics (which is only a single spell known for all of them).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 11:31 PM
And 1) how are you getting the spells known to do this, and 2) the feats and 3) the stacking of morale bonuses?

You don't care about the Morale bonuses. You are just getting as many spell bonuses as possible from different sources and using the spell "Heroics" (Different from Heroism) that gives you, amongst other things a single Fighter bonus feat per casting.

Since you can get 24 of these things pretty easy at level 12, that means you can have more Fighter feats then the Fighter, and more HP/Attack Bonuses too from various buffs that do stack. Throw on a Tensor's Transformation after you do buff up, and viola, Sorcererzilla. All the Fighter feats, none of the Fighter levels.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 11:32 PM
My bad, I thought he was using both heroisms. And where be this heroics? And how long does it last?

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 11:49 PM
Multiple castings of heroics don't stack. Same way multiple castings of Resist Energy don't--you only get the latest version.
"Same spell, different effects".

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:03 AM
Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085).

This will be your Bible from now on.

My Sorcerer Guide was not linked to why? :smallfrown:

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-01, 12:19 AM
War Weaver from Heroes of Battle is worth a look for sharing buffs with the entire party.

mabriss lethe
2008-04-01, 12:21 AM
If you're looking for an easy caster to play that isn't quite so prone to abuse, you could try an invoker like the warlock or dragonfire adept (Complete Arcane and Dragon Magic..I think... respectively.) Invokers are a lot of fun and require minimum book keeping. You only know a few magic tricks, but you can pull them off as at will spell like abilities. With the right choice of invocations they can make rather impressive battlefield controlers...and still blast things from time to time.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-01, 12:24 AM
Actually, I recommend this awesome magic-using class (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 12:36 AM
Multiple castings of heroics don't stack. Same way multiple castings of Resist Energy don't--you only get the latest version.
"Same spell, different effects".

And where is this ruling from?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 01:45 AM
My Sorcerer Guide was not linked to why? :smallfrown:

Possibly to Stupendous:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801

Reel On, Love
2008-04-01, 02:08 AM
And where is this ruling from?

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts".

Magic overview - casting spells: stacking effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects).

"Usually" means that it's the case except when it's overriden. For example, Create Magic Tattoo lets you have several magic tattos.

Reinboom
2008-04-01, 02:12 AM
My Sorcerer Guide was not linked to why? :smallfrown:


Possibly to Stupendous:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801

That was the eventual answer, but I believe it was too soon.

It's my opinion that everybody should have avoided posting the guide just to hurt Solo's ego, decreasing it steadily over time. Then, when the time was right, a couple pages in, the guide then linked to provide Solo the ego 'reboot'.
Which would have then been a more marvelous occurrence, and would be rightfully the benefit and jump in egotism that Solo so rightfully deserves for the guide.

But then CASTLEMIKE ruined it, tsk tsk.

Aside, I recommend following the linked guide as well there. A spellcaster is built on a very simple thing: spells. The more insight you have in to them, the better.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-01, 02:24 AM
If your party lacks casting altogether, you may be better off playing an Archivist from Heroes of Horror. The divine spell list has most of the out-of-combat spells you need, and your spellbook analogue contains most of the Sor/Wiz spells you would have missed.

Don't have HoH? Cloistered Cleric is a slightly inferior but still viable option.

Another option is to just go Beguiler, max UMD, and wand those utility spells.

Edit: I also meant to include healing/restoration on top of utility.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-01, 02:38 AM
Here's the information you need to play as an Archivist: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3 . Due to how overpowered they can be, you may want to ask the DM if you could use Int for bonus spells rather then Wis while limiting yourself to normal Cleric spells and a couple of Domains.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 02:51 AM
Due to how overpowered they can be, you may want to ask the DM if you could use Int for bonus spells rather then Wis while limiting yourself to normal Cleric spells and a couple of Domains.

Completely ignore this advice because it is terrible. The point of the Archivist is to cast from multiple Divine lists. That is their only point. They do not exist to be an Int based Cleric with a book. They cast off of multiple Divine lists or don't play one.

This has nothing to do with power and everything to do with being a different character then a Cleric.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-01, 02:57 AM
I made that suggestion because Archivists are regarded as ovrpowered by a lot of players due to being able to cast spells from other Divine class' spell lists (Quxelopqr did say that he didn't want to make everyone else feel underpowered).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-01, 03:30 AM
I made that suggestion because Archivists are regarded as ovrpowered by a lot of players due to being able to cast spells from other Divine class' spell lists (Quxelopqr did say that he didn't want to make everyone else feel underpowered).Archivist is one of those classes that is only overpowered if you try hard enough. If the OP refrains from Zilla-ing and scrounging through half caster spell lists, which I'm guessing he will, the party should be fine. Grabbing Heal as a 5th level spell, while deliciously good, won't break the game.

riddles
2008-04-01, 03:31 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548 (treantmonk's guide to being god)

much like the guide to being batman, this is one of the best guides to playing a wizard i've ever seen. the premise of the god is you don't hit things, or blast them. that's for the big stupid fighter and glass cannon. it's your job to make sure they can do it.

generally tends to fit in with a party well - especially the battlefield control and buffing sides.



I don't agree. Enabling your party to be more effective allows them to feel that they did all the work- impairing the enemy to the extent a wizard is capable of makes you feel like you're putting down a maimed puppy instead of defeating the BBEG that threatened the world with destruction by his overly large adamantine sword.

I disagree with you there vael. if i'm a fighter coming up against BBEG dragon, the knowledge that my party wizard is going to knock him down to my level brings me great joy. i'd much rather be putting down maimed puppies than being eaten alive by a magic fire breathing lizard. my current party's wizard is a blaster and my charger build is starting to falter (i haven't got shock trooper yet). i WISH she would provide me with maimed puppies.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-01, 03:32 AM
That is a good point (I guess it depends on your definition of "overpowered", and the sort of spells you pick: I'm guessing that the class would be really broken if the player used Domains to grab a ton of Arcane only spells).

Gorbash
2008-04-01, 03:45 AM
My Sorcerer Guide was not linked to why? :smallfrown:

I appologize. I was working very fast in order to be the first with an ultimate answer, so I forgot. :smalleek:

Kurald Galain
2008-04-01, 05:28 AM
Consider playing a Beguiler the skill monkey caster in the box. Really nice if you can take the Precocious Apprentice feat trick for Scorching Ray at first level to fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst although an Arcane Disciple Fire domain would work better for a L11 PC.
That suggestion doesn't really work all that well. Precocious Apprentice states, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit ... Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot,"

Using PA to obtain a spell not on your class list is obviously not what the feat is intended for; it is probably legal as written, but as written you'll lose that spell upon hitting level 4.



I like using a variant (Non Evil) of Ur Priests
Hint to the OP: if you don't want to be overpowered, don't play anything resembling an Ur Priest. They can get level-9 spells four or five levels earlier than pretty much everybody else, which makes them t3h cheese.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 06:47 AM
That suggestion doesn't really work all that well. Precocious Apprentice states, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit ... Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot,"

Using PA to obtain a spell not on your class list is obviously not what the feat is intended for; it is probably legal as written, but as written you'll lose that spell upon hitting level 4.


Hint to the OP: if you don't want to be overpowered, don't play anything resembling an Ur Priest. They can get level-9 spells four or five levels earlier than pretty much everybody else, which makes them t3h cheese.

Well I did say he would be better off with Arcane Disciple Fire in this case.

Sure at higher levels it could become cheese but at L11 with a Ur Priest he actually would have less spellcasting than a standard L11 Cleric or Archivist. Nice for a variant skill monkey or 5 level multiclass blend.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-01, 07:21 AM
Sure at higher levels it could become cheese but at L11 with a Ur Priest he actually would have less spellcasting than a standard L11 Cleric or Archivist. Nice for a variant skill monkey or 5 level multiclass blend.

I disagree. A skillmonkey is supposed to have less spells than a standard cleric to begin with. Doesn't make ur-priest any less cheesy (nor archivist, for that matter, which also tends towards gouda).

Chronos
2008-04-01, 01:08 PM
"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts".That's meant to apply to effects which would overwrite each other, like Polymorph. You can't be a toad and a dragon at the same time, so the last one trumps the others. But it's perfectly possible to be resistant to fire and acid at the same time, so Resist Elements works fine.

Paul H
2008-04-07, 06:46 PM
Hi

I've been playing spellcasters for couple decades now (hardly ever played a non-spellcaster in all that time).

Since you're new to the concept I suggest you keep in simple - stick to a single class from the PHB, and start by only using spells from PHB & Spell Compendium. This means you don't have to carry a ton of books around, and makes all your spells easy to find.

Don't know what your campaign setting is, but try a Cleric with the Magic Domain, (Boccob or LLirr in Greyhawk). This means you can use wizard items as a wizard of half your cleric level (round up). You also get to ID items for free as 2nd level domain spell.

Another option (in Greyhawk) is a Cleric of Ffarlaghn (spelling)? Take Celerity & Travel domains. Your party will love the 'Get out of Jail Free' spells like Dimension Door, Fly & Teleport, plus you get goodies like Haste. All as domain spells.

Useful Spells
1) Cure Light Wounds, Lssr Vigor (heals more, but best used out of combat), Bless, Magic Wpn, Protection vs Evil
2) Close Wounds (Ranged healing as immediate action), Lssr Restoration, various stat buffs, etc.
3) Circle Protection vs Evil, Prayer, Create Food & Drink

List goes on...

Very versatile class. You can heal, blast, buff or summon monsters. Check Domain spells & powers for extra spells & abilities. You can even wear heavy armour & shield. With right crafting feats you can make magical items.

There are several worlds of other possibilities out there, including my favourite Warmages & Beguilers, but my favourites for campaigns using only core books are Cleric & Druid.

Hope this helps
Paul H

valadil
2008-04-07, 06:55 PM
The great thing about being a caster, especially one that prepares spells ahead of time, is that you are exactly as powerful as your spell selection. If sculpted stinking cloud makes the rest of the party obsolete (it sure does with my party!) then don't mem it next time. It's very easy to hold back with a caster if you're boring the other players at the table. Also, if you're a wizard you can always support them with extra gear. Maybe you should focus on buffing and only do combat stuff when the whole party is buffed.