The Anti-Party...

[TheCountAlucard]

Here's the party I currently DM for...

CN female Drow Rogue 5 (ECL 7)
CE male Elf Cleric of Nerull 6
LE male Half-Elf Fighter 4/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple 1
LE male Human Dread Necromancer 7

Does anyone have any ideas for making an "opposite" adventuring party?

[Kraggi]

Just invite me.

*BA DUM CH* Thanks, I'll be here all week.

[streakster]

LN male elf paladin
LG female drow cleric of Pelor
CG female half-elf swordsage -TOB
NG orc druid

my 2cp

[SamTheCleric]

I would say the opposite of the rogue would be a Ranger (possibly justiciar)... A good thief catcher.

Obviously the opposite of the evil cleric is a good one. Who is direct opposition with Nerull?

Fighter/Sorcerer? Counter with a Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword.

As for the Dread Necro... Paladin/Grey Guard. Put the fear of god in him.

[TheCountAlucard]

Lemme clarify a little bit...

After the adventure they're currently on, the party is probably going to want to go after a certain magic item. However, they're not the only ones who are going to be interested in claiming it. I figured another adventuring party would be the most fitting.

Since the party is mostly evil, they probably won't show mercy on the "anti-party," so I'm not intending on them to be recurring antagonists. I don't want a TPK, either. I just want a decent challenge for the party, using thematic elements that oppose those of the party.

Also, please name the book it came from if you're suggesting a non-core class.

EDIT: And, um, please, no psionics.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Streakster, your party will bork the asses of the OP's party. Swordsage and druid alone are a win.

As for the party itself...

For the rogue, a thiefcatcher is a good idea. I second Justiciar, and I suggest Ranger as the base. Essentially, I second Sam.

The cleric of Nerull...a RSoP is almost a direct opposite. That, or a warpriest of Heironeous.

The half elf fighter...psywar. Can't get more opposed to magic than that. Add some template that represents an enemy of dragons.

The dread necromancer is obvious. Pally or crusader, though the second option can be an I Win button against what seems like an unoptimized party.

[Collin152]

A party of bards, each with a difeant speciality.

[SamTheCleric]

Ranger/Justiciar (Justiciar is in Complete Adventurer)
Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine)
Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword/Dragonslayer (Complete Arcane and Draconomicon)
Paladin/Grey Guard (Complete Scoundrel)

That's my official recommendation:smallbiggrin: .

[bugsysservant]

Wait, is this other party supposed to be competition (in which case it would be mostly evil) or opposition (in which case it would be mostly good)?

If the latter, the suggestions already made could definitely work. If the former, just take the party and shift it by a couple of steps. Drow Rogue becomes changeling factotum. A cleric of nerull becomes a favored soul of vecna. The dragon disciple becomes a dragon shaman (of a different dragon, naturally). And the dread necromancer becomes, oh, you could do a beguiler. They are supposed to be the polar opposites of Necromancers, after all, but are both highly specialized classes. Or did I miss the mark on what you want too?

[Treguard]

You could take a leaf out of the linear guild's book and look at character traits to spice things up a bit (take Roy and Thog for example).

Any snippets of character personality you want to share?

[Squash Monster]

LN female wood elf Swordsage 6 (mobility / desert wind focus)
LG male dwarf Crusader 5 (healer tank)
LG male human Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 (gishish)
NG female dwarf Druid 6 (summoning focus)

Overall, slightly lower ECL than the party, which makes for a good fight but your party should win.

Their Swordsage is a mobile damage dealer like your Rogue, but with a different class and a focus on fire (which thematically opposes stealth/shadows)

Their Crusader and Sorcadin counter your Cleric and Fighter, but with a different way of arranging roles. Instead of a healer/caster and a frontguy/lousy caster you have a healer/frontguy and a gish.

Finally, their Druid summons lots of animals to contend with the necromancer. If the necromancer is more of the debuff type than the undead horde type, replace the Druid with a wizard, focused specialist into Transmutation, with emphasis on their debuffs.

[streakster]

Streakster, your party will bork the asses of the OP's party. Swordsage and druid alone are a win.

I thought I was designing a recurring cast, you see. And you know, while they can be very powerful, they can be built sub-optimally. The druid might not take Natural Spell, for example.

[TheCountAlucard]

Any snippets of character personality you want to share?

Here ya go!

Jamben (the Dread Necromancer) is a planner on the long term. He's charismatic, and is quick to get a feel for how useful a person can be to him. He intends on attaining lichdom and becoming a major political power in the world. He carries no weapon, but wears a chain shirt under his robes.

Joker (the Dragon Disciple) is intent on awakening his draconic heritage. He very strongly believes that he is descended from a powerful Blue Dragon. He dual-wields two shortswords, one red, one black, and wears a red-and-black chain shirt.

Jaren (the Cleric of Nerull) is disturbingly knowledgeable on the subject of funeral rites. He grins manically as he wades into battle. He made both his scythe and his full plate armor.

Triel (the Rogue) travels with the party because they were the first to accept her after she was banished from the Underdark. She's not surprised to see her fellow party members commit evil acts, but she tries not to do any herself. She wields a rapier in melee, and also has a composite shortbow.

[senrath]

Well, it's not exactly what you're looking for, but you might try throwing a couple of mirrors of opposition in-front of them. That'll literally make an anti-party :P

[Overlord]

This reminds me of that old Knights of the Dinner Table strip where Brian backstabs the rest of his party members:

Dave: "I'm rolling an assassin named Anti-Brian...."

[SadisticFishing]

This reminds me of that old Knights of the Dinner Table strip where Brian backstabs the rest of his party members:

Dave: "I'm rolling an assassing named Anti-Brian...."

Haha, we once had a very annoying paladin, who's real name was Gio. So I made my next char a CE Stormlord, Kogillis (which is Kills Gio, in a different order). I ended up killing him 3-4 times that campaign, teehee. Don't worry though, he thought it was funny too.

[TheCountAlucard]

Wait, is this other party supposed to be competition (in which case it would be mostly evil) or opposition (in which case it would be mostly good)?

I think I'd prefer opposition, but competition will also work.

I can't find the Crusader. I also couldn't find Justiciar, Swordsage, or Spellsword. Page numbers?

[Dode]

Crusader and Swordsage are base classes in the teens of the Tome of Battle.
Justiciar and Spellsword are PrCs in Complete Warrior, pg 48 and 80 respectively.

Crusader: Vicious tank that uses special attacks to heal himself, punish anyone within reach and class abilities that make it incredibly hard to down with a dedicated healer backing him up.

Swordsage: The ultimate "exotic" fighter, uses boatloads of special manuevers to sway from tripping machine to assassin.

Justiciar: Non-lethal specialist fighter.

Spellsword: Gish that wears armor.

[TheCountAlucard]

Thanks!

After a look at the suggested ToB classes, I don't think I'll be using anything from it until I have a chance to read the whole book. That'll be a while.

As for the Justiciar, I don't know if it'd be a very good opposite to Triel - she's the least criminal of the PCs. In fact, except for being an accomplice, she's not really guilty of anything.

The Spellsword sounds nice, but if it's gonna oppose Joker, I'd rather have something more draconically-themed.

Druid or Paladin/Grey Guard both seem like fitting opponents for Jamben.

Likewise, Cleric/RSoP sounds like it might make a good fight for Jaren.

[Dode]

Alright, for the Dragon Disciple, I suggest a Knight (PHB2) with the Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature from Dragon Magic, the Improved Unarmed Strike and "Draconic Aura" feats (latter also from Dragon Magic), a reach weapon, prestiging him into his first level of Dragon Lord (Dragon Magic again).

Knights are basically defense-oriented fighters who get a bunch of armor-enhancing abilities, can make enemies "aggro" through challenges and can actually soak damage meant for adjascent enemies and have some nice movement control powers in general.

The Dragonscale Husk means they can't wear armor but instead get a husk (+8 AC) that counts as medium, the Knight has a class ability that lets him treat medium armor as light for purposes of movement. So he effectively has full speed in full plate.

The Draconic Aura (picking Vigor) will automatically stabilizes any dying allies of his within 30 ft, in case you want to use them again and the knight's defensive power and d12 hp means he'll be standing long enough for them to possible revive while the PCs are focusing on finishing him off.

The Unarmed Strike and Reach Weapon (lance/glaive) synergize with his "Bulwark of Defense" ability which makes any square he threatens count as "difficult terrain". If he carries a potion of Enlarge Person, he quickly dominates a large chunk of the battlefield.

In addition to 30 ft. move speed, the Knight gets Mounted Combat for free. So feel free to give him a mount and ride him straight into the squishies of your party and make a ride check to dismount as a free action.

That ought to do it.


As for the Drow, I suggest maybe an Elf Scout (Complete Adventurer, pg. 13)who assumes the worst about his racial enemy, giving him with Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel pg. 74), Rapid Reload and Crossbow Sniper (PHB2). Dreamy like Legolas even against this foul, evil party. He is comfortable fighting from a distance (60ft) readying shots (with dex to damage) to disrupt any attempted spells or simply plucking away with nasty skirmish damage .

[SamTheCleric]

As for the Drow, I suggest maybe an Elf Scout (Complete Adventurer, pg. 13)who assumes the worst about his racial enemy, giving him with Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel pg. 74), Rapid Reload and Crossbow Sniper (PHB2). Dreamy like Legolas even against this foul, evil party. He is comfortable fighting from a distance (60ft) readying shots (with dex to damage) to disrupt any attempted spells or simply plucking away with nasty skirmish damage .

Perhaps an Elf Ranger/Scout with the Swift Hunter Feat [Complete Scoundrel], Improved Skirmish [Complete Scoundrel] and Improved Favored Enemy [Complete Warrior]... Favored enemy is naturally a Drow.

[TheCountAlucard]

I don't have Dragon Magic... :smalleek:

Scout, Ranger, or Ranger/Scout sound like they might work for Triel...

[Dode]

Well then we're in a bit of a pickle, because there aren't really any good draconic-themed melee builds (even the one I posted was kinda meh). The "Draconic Aura" feat is pretty straightfoward and you don't really need Dragon Magic for it, because I'm assuming you have PHB2 if you'll allow a Knight. You can just not take the class feature, slap on some armor and you'll still have a decent, mobile fighter.

[SamTheCleric]

He could be a Dragonborn... one of Bahamuts "chosen" to battle tiamat. (Races of Dragon)

Big Dragonborn with a greatsword. Ubercharger.

[Telonius]

Rogue -> Halfling Rogue/Exemplar.
Cleric -> Human Cleric of Pelor or Obad-Hai.
Fighter-ish guy -> Half-Dragon Half-Orc; Fighter, Ranger, or a combination of the two.
Necromancer -> Human Wizard/Loremaster.

Loremaster gives the justification of hunting after your MacGuffin.

[TheCountAlucard]

He could be a Dragonborn... one of Bahamuts "chosen" to battle tiamat. (Races of Dragon)

Big Dragonborn with a greatsword. Ubercharger.

Joker actually is a worshipper of Tiamat... Can't believe I didn't think of involving Tiamat and Bahamut... and I actually have the book Races of the Dragon...

Where's Exemplar from again, Telonius?

[SamTheCleric]

Exemplar is the "skill master" prestige class from Complete Adventurer.

[Ponce]

Rogue: Lawful Neutral Svirfneblin Knight (PHB II) - Rogues benefit the most from flanking, while knights are generally required to surrender even the bonus to attack. Rogues are iconically chaotic-leaning as well, while knights must be lawful. Racial animosity as well.

Cleric: RSoP has already been suggested for the Cleric. I don't think I can do better.

Dragon Disciple: Half-Orc Barbarian/Occult Slayer (Complete Warrior) - Will be able to ignore many of the DD's buffs (if any) when taking associated mage slaying feats. Halfbreed theme, etc.

Dread Necromancer: Human Crusader of Kord (Tome of Battle) - Jumps into the fray rather then sending others to do the job for him. Alignment opposition.

[Doresain]

the anti-party should be made of...kobolds and goblins(actually goblins, not hobgoblins and bugbears)...

[TheCountAlucard]

By the way, some other things...

The Rogue is getting ready to enter into the Shadowdancer PrC.

The Dread Necromancer has a Quasit familiar.

I've decided on opposition, rather than competition. After all, the party could potentially ally themselves with a group with the same goals as them.

I liked the idea of a Dragonborn of Bahamut. I'm already working on a story for him.

Using a Paladin/Grey Guard actually fits with Jamben's backstory, so I'm more likely to use it than the Druid.

[Ascension]

The Rogue is getting ready to enter into the Shadowdancer PrC.

I might go with one of the other "dancers," then. Cloaked Dancer, Dervish, Dance-focused Bard, that sort of thing.

[TheCountAlucard]

Thanks! What books are those from?

[Ascension]

Cloaked Dancer is in Complete Scoundrel (p. 31), and Dervish is Complete Warrior (p. 25). As you may well expect, Dervish is much more martial, but Cloaked Dancer has some nifty abilities of its own.

[TheCountAlucard]

Hmm...

Okay, so we have:

NG Elf Cleric 6/RSoP 1
LG Human Paladin 5/Grey Guard 2
CG Dragonborn of Bahamut Ranger 7
Some other thing

[SamTheCleric]

Why Ranger on the dragonborn... why not something like... Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Occult Slayer 2 ?

And take the alternate class feature from Complete Mage (I think) that lets you have Arcanists be your favored enemy.

[Occult Slayer can be found in Complete Warrior]

[TheCountAlucard]

I picked Ranger for the Dragonborn because at that level, with the build I used, it's surprisingly similar to Joker.

They both have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
They both can cast no higher than 1st-level spells.
They both wear light armor.
Both have good Fort saves.

I picked 7th level because the PCs are all probably going to level up when the adventure they're on is over.

[SamTheCleric]

Oh, Ok. That makes sense.

That would make for a scary encounter.

Still not sure what to use from the rogue though? She's the wild card here...

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, with a Ranger, a Grey Guard/Paladin, and a Cleric/RSoP, I'm thinking of using a Bard against Triel, to balance things out...

[SamTheCleric]

I agree with that. An elven bard sounds like it'd balance it nicely.

[TheCountAlucard]

All righty, then. How about gear?

I figured I'd give the Dragonblood Ranger a Holy Two-Bladed Sword and a Mithral Breastplate.

I haven't really thought on it yet, but I'm thinking of giving the Paladin/Grey Guard a Warhammer, probably a Holy one. Not sure on armor, either.

Obviously, the Cleric/RSoP's gonna have a mace...

[Burley]

Easiest way: Photocopy their character sheets. They'd be fairly useless against their own counterpart, and the party is fairly well-rounded, which means there'd be somebody to offset their weakness on the other side.

The rogues couldn't sneak attack each other, the fighters would just be a battle of dice rolls, so, they'd probably switch that up. I would foresee a rogue sneak attacking the enemy fighter with flanking help from the ally fighter who is being flanked by the enemy fighter and the enemy rogue who is sneak attacking the fighter.
And the Necromancerand Cleric would be creating and turn/rebuking all over the place.

Just do what all great 70s cartoons do: Change the sex, and give them...I dunno...a talking car.

[TheCountAlucard]

It'd be kind of hard to "mirror" the party in the manner you're suggesting, BW. For one thing, Dread Necros can't be good-aligned. I wanted to use different character classes for the anti-party.

As far as gear goes, using the same gear for both parties would also be problematic. The Dread Necromancer has no weapon; his opposite number on the anti-party, the paladin, would be drastically ineffective. A Radiant Servant of Pelor would look out of place when wielding a scythe. An Elf Bard has no use for magic sunglasses.

[Burley]

I dunno... a paladin who invested in unarmed fighting would be pretty great. But, I understand. A paladin needs to have an uber sword. It's only fair.

[TheCountAlucard]

Uber warhammer. Otherwise it doesn't overcome the Dread Necro's DR.

[Moogle0119]

For the Drow Rogue you could also try something like an Elf Knight/Champion of Correlon Latherion (sp?) from Races of the Wild. You could also try what I think was called Dark Hunter or Dark Stalker from Complete Warrior. There's also the Bloodhound PrC from Complete Adventurer which could have someone hired by the drow that banished the rogue to bring her back alive for torture or whatever reason.

[TheCountAlucard]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've already started statting out the bard. I haven't picked out spells for him yet, though.

Any ideas on equipment? Magic items?

I just realized that the Cleric/RSoP is going to have to be human, because otherwise it'd need to be ninth level just to have enough feats to meet the requirement.

[Mando Knight]

I know you would like total-opposite alignment, but what about an LG Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut instead of the CG Ranger? You don't have the opposite alignment, but you could have opposite weapon styles: Bahamut's Pally could have a Holy greatsword or something. Since he's a fanatical devotee of the Dragon of Shiny Goodness, he'd be the perfect foil to Joker's devotion to the Dragon of Multiheaded Evilness. Bonus if the Pally is attractive and the opposite gender. And wears dragon hide armor... black dragon hide. A gift from her mentor and made from the hide of a dragon she helped him kill.