PDA

View Full Version : Polar Ray: Whats the point?



BRC
2008-03-31, 08:37 PM
So I was using the SRD to pick spells for an upcoming campaign and I looked at polar ray. I noticed somthing odd, it is pointless because it is overshadowed in every way by Disentegrate

Disentegrate
Ranged touch attack
Fort save or die
2d6 per level, maximum 40d6

Polar ray
Ranged touch attack
1d6/level, max 25 d6.


The way I see it, there is absolutally no reason for anybody, with the exception of a wizard who banned transmutation for some reason, to take polar ray.
That said, I'm sure that it has hidden depths useful by certain PRC's/in certain campaigns/ with certain feats, but still.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 08:38 PM
While Polar Ray does in fact suck, you're missing that Disintegrate only does 2d6/level on a failed Fort save. On a successful one, it does only 5d6.

LiteYear
2008-03-31, 08:39 PM
Disintegrate is not a fort save or die spell. On a failed save, it does 2d6/level (max 40d6), while on a successful save, it's 5d6. Polar Ray has no saving throw.

BRC
2008-03-31, 08:40 PM
While Polar Ray does in fact suck, you're missing that Disintegrate only does 2d6/level on a failed Fort save. On a successful one, it does only 5d6.
Hmmm, Didn't notice that before.... I'll have to reconsider polar ray as an option (Right now I'm going with irresistable dance)

HydwenPrydain
2008-03-31, 08:46 PM
Ye have chosen...wisely.

DementedFellow
2008-03-31, 08:46 PM
It's been forever and a day since I've made a high level caster, but I must say, Thank you for showing me this spell. An elemental spell is very handy, especially one such as this that doesn't allow a saving throw. You could energy substitute it and make it whatever you wanted it to be, I guess. Thanks again. :D

FinalJustice
2008-03-31, 08:48 PM
Stick with the dance, believe it, it's more useful. Cheese it out with Celerity so any fool who dares to get in melee range with you tastes the mambo.

BRC
2008-03-31, 08:50 PM
Stick with the dance, believe it, it's more useful. Cheese it out with Celerity so any fool who dares to get in melee range with you tastes the mambo.
Forget the Mambo, I intend to make any heavily-armored foes we fight do the robot.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 08:51 PM
Hmmm, Didn't notice that before.... I'll have to reconsider polar ray as an option (Right now I'm going with irresistable dance)

Do NOT give up Irresistible Dance for Polar Ray.

Irresistible Dance is so good. I don't tend to ban enchantment at high levels *just for it*. It's so good I take the Archmage's Arcane Reach arcana even if I have no other spells to apply it to.

Irresistible Dance = basically an insta-win against anything that isn't immune to mind-affecting effects. If there's a Mind Blank up, then between the cleric's Greater Dispel and your own rod-quickened Greater Dispel, it goes down, and BAM! Arcane-reached Irresistible Dance. Meleers wade in and cut the thing to pieces.

FinalJustice
2008-03-31, 08:52 PM
Macarena, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

dman11235
2008-03-31, 08:53 PM
Well, still reconsider Polar Ray. Orb of X spell heavily MM'd is much better. And lower level! At least until MM'd. And Irresistible Dance>any DD spell. Well, any non-epic DD spell.

DementedFellow
2008-03-31, 08:53 PM
Irresistible Dance doesn't do my party much good, only recently have we moved away from fighting constructs, undead and oozes.

But duly noted.:smallbiggrin:

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 08:58 PM
Irresistible Dance doesn't do my party much good, only recently have we moved away from fighting constructs, undead and oozes.

But duly noted.:smallbiggrin:

Take note of Command Undead for any mindless undead you come across. No save.

Solid Fog + Ventriloquism scroll = keep the Construct chasing your ventriloquised voice around the Fog for as long as you're in range, probably.

Oozes... Haste the party. Fly.

FinalJustice
2008-03-31, 09:09 PM
For the Constructs, freezing fog is also good, since it comes with a Grease built in and causes 1d6 damage/round. Clumsy golems freeze slowly inside it. Still take Ventriloquism for good measure, so you can get them into the fog again, if they manage to leave.

Neftren
2008-03-31, 09:30 PM
Alternatively, just superheat the metal, or electrocute it, or whatever. Energy Substitution does wonders with Polar Ray.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 10:27 PM
Y'know, Polar Ray used to be one of three options for Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, a sixth-level spell. As one possible option for a multi-use sixth level spell, it was just about worthwhile. But as an 8th level? There are better uses of your actions than doing 20d6 damage to a single target.

Smiley_
2008-03-31, 11:25 PM
Polar ray, ray of frost's big brother on steroids.

It does wonders when substituted with sonic damage via archmage.

Pesky rouge? Improved Evasion? Nope!

Actually a nice spell for getting rid of bodaks and red dragons.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 12:56 AM
You know what I hate about Polar Ray? SR: Yes

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:58 AM
Polar ray, ray of frost's big brother on steroids.

It does wonders when substituted with sonic damage via archmage.

Pesky rouge? Improved Evasion? Nope!

Actually a nice spell for getting rid of bodaks and red dragons.

Bah, Disintegrate.

Overlord
2008-04-01, 01:09 AM
Bah, Disintegrate.

Yes, I would have to agree. A quickened True Strike + Disintegrate combo is just better in most situations.

Now yes, if I'm fighting a Red Dragon, then I might choose Polar Ray, since I'd basically be dealing the same amount of damage, and I wouldn't have to try to beat the dragon's Fort save.

Otherwise...Polar Ray doesn't see much use.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 01:19 AM
Yes, I would have to agree. A quickened True Strike + Disintegrate combo is just better in most situations.

Now yes, if I'm fighting a Red Dragon, then I might choose Polar Ray, since I'd basically be dealing the same amount of damage, and I wouldn't have to try to beat the dragon's Fort save.

Otherwise...Polar Ray doesn't see much use.

But for that you have Orbs anyway, and it saves you the trouble of SR.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-01, 01:29 AM
Irresistible Dance
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

V.


Protection from Evil

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).


8th level touch spell that loses to a first level spell? I'll pass, thanks. Still don't see much point to polar ray, unless you are one of those rare Evokers.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-01, 01:38 AM
V.




8th level touch spell that loses to a first level spell? I'll pass, thanks. Still don't see much point to polar ray, unless you are one of those rare Evokers.

That's "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person".

Irresistible Dance is a single command, not ongoing control. Prot. from Evil doesn't do anything against it.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-01, 01:53 AM
I disagree. Must continue dancing for the duration of the spell is ongoing control.

Or do they only dance for one round?

TempusCCK
2008-04-01, 01:58 AM
Well, come on guys, we need to use every poor wording and loophole to defend our obviously overpowered spell choices. I mean, it DOES control them for a long time, and it is a mind effecting spell, but since I don't personally control them, my cheese should stand untainted.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-01, 01:58 AM
I disagree. Must continue dancing for the duration of the spell is ongoing control.

Or do they only dance for one round?

That's not control. Look at the example--Dominate Person. The wizard casts Irresistible Dance, and it works; he can't control what the person does--they're going to dance unless he dispels his own spell.

Protection from Evil is pretty clearly meant to protect against domination, possession, and such, not *all charms and compulsions*. It makes the ongoing control distinction for a reason.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-01, 02:04 AM
Lets not start on argument about protection from evil in a thread about Polar Ray. What is obvious is that we have different rulings on the subject.

What is not obvious is that you are right. Or, to be fair, that I am right. I see your point, and don't happen to agree with it. There is no RAW clear answer, just our interpretations of it.

Gorbash
2008-04-01, 03:44 AM
I'm sorry, but where's Irresistible Dance from? I checked PHB, Spell Compendium and Complete Mage, and I either missed it or it's one of those named spells...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-01, 03:47 AM
Otto's Irresistible Dance. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)

lord_khaine
2008-04-01, 03:49 AM
its a level 8 spell invented by some guy called Otto, try and look in the phb.

Cruiser1
2008-04-01, 04:46 AM
Polar Ray gets more use in a core-only game, where you don't have access to powerful spells like the Orbs or feats like Energy Substitution. Polar Ray then becomes the highest elemental damage spell outside of Meteor Swarm, and the highest non-fire source of elemental damage period, all with no saving throw.

Overlord
2008-04-01, 09:33 AM
But for that you have Orbs anyway, and it saves you the trouble of SR.

Yeah, pretty much.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-01, 10:05 AM
its a level 8 spell invented by some guy called Otto, try and look in the phb.

Which begs the question - what kind of player considers "Otto" a cool name for a friggin' wizard?

Zincorium
2008-04-01, 10:14 AM
Which begs the question - what kind of player considers "Otto" a cool name for a friggin' wizard?

Gnomes, dude. Gnomes. Otto is most definitely some gnomish illusionist from back in the days of yore who drove his DM nuts.

Who the heck else would invent magic that involves making your opponent do a silly dance while people stab them?

Indon
2008-04-01, 10:15 AM
That's "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person".

No, that's "Including enchantment..." etc.

The operating text is the text before it, which blocks any attempt "to exercise mental control over the creature", which most definitely blocks spells such as Irresistable Dance, Suggestion, or Geas, and may even be argued to block use of the Diplomacy or Intimidate skills, as it's quite expansive and its' only specification is inclusive.

nargbop
2008-04-01, 10:30 AM
Polar Ray ; no save elemental energy damage. Take Energy Substitution from Complete Arcane or a level of Archmage for the similar class feature, and Polar Ray is your automatic-high-damage against all sorts of opponents.

Telonius
2008-04-01, 10:47 AM
Huh. Wikipedia, that font of always-accurate information, claims that one Otto Maximiliano Pereira de Cordeiro Ferreira was a "Brazilian singer and composer from manguebeat movement at 90's." Seems reasonable that he'd create a spell that makes people dance. So, not Gnomish, just Brazilian? :smallconfused:

Frosty
2008-04-01, 10:52 AM
Are Orb spells still good for damage beyond level 20? I don't want to sink a huge amount of metamagic into it if it means they'll go to waste after epic.

Solo
2008-04-01, 11:00 AM
Are Orb spells still good for damage beyond level 20? I don't want to sink a huge amount of metamagic into it if it means they'll go to waste after epic.

Arcane Thesis Empowered Maximized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Quicken spell = 180 force damage.
+
Arcane Thesis Empowered Mazimized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Twin Spell = 180 force damage, spell repeats next round.

total: 360 force damage, 180 repeating next round.

gerunding
2008-04-01, 11:02 AM
If you're wondering, "why Otto?", here's the wikipedia article you want:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth

Frosty
2008-04-01, 11:13 AM
Arcane Thesis Empowered Maximized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Quicken spell = 180 force damage.
+
Arcane Thesis Empowered Mazimized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Twin Spell = 180 force damage, spell repeats next round.

total: 360 force damage, 180 repeating next round.

I don't believe you can use Split Ray with an Orb spell.

Kioran
2008-04-01, 11:16 AM
Arcane Thesis Empowered Maximized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Quicken spell = 180 force damage.
+
Arcane Thesis Empowered Mazimized Split Ray Orb of Force + Rod of Twin Spell = 180 force damage, spell repeats next round.

total: 360 force damage, 180 repeating next round.

Arcane Thesis does not work that way!!!

It has even been errata´d, explicitly stating that Arcane thesis is not applied to every single matemagic feat used, but to the overall cost of them, and that it can´t reduce the cost below the original lvl. Which, incidentally, dovetails nicely with the CL increase of 2 - two lvls of caster progression means the next lvl of spells available. Arcane Thesis essentially means you are a caster of two lvls higher for the purpose of this spell, in all regards (being capable of noticing/retroengineering these concepts is, imho, essential for being a gaame designer btw.).

Why, oh why god, do 90% of the people always assume the more broken reading is correct?

Frosty
2008-04-01, 11:18 AM
Arcane Thesis does not work that way!!!

It has even been errata´d, explicitly stating that Arcane thesis is not applied to every single matemagic feat used, but to the overall cost of them, and that it can´t reduce the cost below the original lvl. Which, incidentally, dovetails nicely with the CL increase of 2 - two lvls of caster progression means the next lvl of spells available. Arcane Thesis essentially means you are a caster of two lvls higher for the purpose of this spell, in all regards (being capable of noticing/retroengineering these concepts is, imho, essential for being a gaame designer btw.).

Why, oh why god, do 90% of the people always assume the more broken reading is correct?

As far as April Fools jokes go, this is not the most funny. In any case, the newest ruling has clearly states Arcane Thesis works on EVERY metamagic you apply. I rule personally that Arcane thesis does nothing for +0 metamagics like Energy Sub, so prevent cheese.

Kioran
2008-04-01, 11:33 AM
As far as April Fools jokes go, this is not the most funny. In any case, the newest ruling has clearly states Arcane Thesis works on EVERY metamagic you apply. I rule personally that Arcane thesis does nothing for +0 metamagics like Energy Sub, so prevent cheese.

*headshake* I can remember seeing errata distinctly stating what I mentioned before (the spell not being reduced below it´s original lvl has been mentioned btw.), which isn´t there anymore, but for what it´s worth (from the description):

"When you apply a Metamagic Feat other than heighten spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal"

(bolded for emphasis)

It does not modify the metamagic Feat, but the spell created by the Metamagic template and the base spell - meaning the sum of all Metamagic, not every single Metamagic Feat. Also, there is some indication that my reading is correct in form of a +2 CL increases (remember? Spell progression lvl x = Spell lvl y, SPL x+2 = SL y+1)...

By the way: calling a perfectly valid reading or at least per intention serious comment a bas April Fool´s joke is bad form and cause of heightened blood pressure........

Frosty
2008-04-01, 11:35 AM
Your joke is still not funny.

I'm copy and pasting from the PHB2 errata.

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”

Kioran
2008-04-01, 11:46 AM
Your joke is still not funny.

I'm copy and pasting from the PHB2 errata.

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”

Okay.......this contradicts the original text (entirely permissible for errata) to create a more broken rule. Who at Wizards has been smoking crack?

And it isn´t a joke, but the most sensible interpreatation of the original text, since that reading means the spell is auto-stilled, silenced, substituted, enlarged etc....making this official....

tarbrush
2008-04-01, 11:52 AM
but the most sensible interpreatation of the original text,

And there's where you made your mistake, see :)

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:00 PM
I don't believe you can use Split Ray with an Orb spell.

Orbs are mechanically identical to rays.

If not, we'd get a dichotomy, where you can't shoot the Tarresque with Polar Ray, but you can hammer away at him all day with Acid Arror and Orb of Force.

Even though they are mechanically the same; you roll a ranged touch attack to deal damage to something.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 12:01 PM
Okay.......this contradicts the original text (entirely permissible for errata) to create a more broken rule. Who at Wizards has been smoking crack?

And it isn´t a joke, but the most sensible interpreatation of the original text, since that reading means the spell is auto-stilled, silenced, substituted, enlarged etc....making this official....

This feat would suck if it was your interpretation. I wouldn't waste a feat on it. And yes, it could be auto stilled, silenced, enlarged, etc...if you wanna spend feats on those metamagic as well. Most people don't. Substituted is already +0, so this feat doesn't affect that metamagic.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 12:04 PM
where you can't shoot the Tarresque with Polar Ray, but you can hammer away at him all day with Acid Arror and Orb of Force..

You are correct. Orbs can down Terrasques just fine. Rays can't. There IS a different. that's why Rays aren't as good. A level 4 spell will completely pwn your Rays.

That is why TWIN spell is a +4 adjustment and Split Ray is only a +2 Adjustment, because Rays have some inherent weaknesses.

You can NOT use Twin Ray on an Orb unless you somehow change it to a ray.

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:12 PM
Rays and Orbs (and acid arrow) differ in fluff, but I don't see a mechanical difference.

Do you?

Chronos
2008-04-01, 12:15 PM
A ray is any spell which has "ray" in the "effect" line. Compare, for instance, the two damaging cantrips:

Acid Splash
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One missile of acid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage.

Ray of Frost
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage. They clearly have different effects. Would you say that Meteor Swarm is a ray, too? It also requires a ranged touch attack roll.

Now, that said, there are some things which refer to "spells which require a ranged touch attack", or the like, and those could be applied to rays or orbs (or meteors) equally.

And speaking of Meteor Swarm, let's compare it to Polar Ray. Meteor Swarm also doesn't allow a save if you make a ranged touch attack roll, but it still does something even if you miss. The total damage is 32d6 to a single target, compared to 20d6, it affects a large area in addition to the primary target or targets, and you can aim the meteors independently if you choose. That's a lot more than one spell level's worth of difference.

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:17 PM
Well how do you suggest I pull his leg now, Mr. Smartypants?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 12:25 PM
Okay.......this contradicts the original text (entirely permissible for errata) to create a more broken rule. Who at Wizards has been smoking crack?

1) "More Broken" implies that even with your earlier interpretation it was still broken, which it wasn't because no one would ever waste a feat on it that way.

2) Wah wah, the PCs don't suck! How am I supposed to DM/play in a game where the players don't take toughness over and over? It's so hard to keep things balanced when the players are actually capable of taking useful feats.

ColdBrew
2008-04-01, 12:28 PM
Rays and Orbs (and acid arrow) differ in fluff, but I don't see a mechanical difference.

Do you?
Yes. One has "Effect: Ray" and is a ray spell. One does not.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-01, 12:40 PM
Yes, but if we break down the spells... don't we really only have a few categories?

Rays and Orbs are just Ranged Touch spells. Then you have your AoE spells and Your Spells That Don't Do Damage So Don't Take Them spells.

I mean, mechanically you should just play a warmage.

Indon
2008-04-01, 12:46 PM
And speaking of Meteor Swarm, let's compare it to Polar Ray. Meteor Swarm also doesn't allow a save if you make a ranged touch attack roll, but it still does something even if you miss. The total damage is 32d6 to a single target, compared to 20d6, it affects a large area in addition to the primary target or targets, and you can aim the meteors independently if you choose. That's a lot more than one spell level's worth of difference.

There's also that Fire is a much more commonly-resisted energy type than Cold, and that Meteor Swarm's damage is vulnerable to both DR and energy resistance, which gets to apply four times to it.

There's also the fact that the 8-9 spell level jump is frequently a pretty big jump in power - an example would be from PAO to Shapechange, which unlocks an entirely new class of polymorph-related brokenness.

Kioran
2008-04-01, 05:49 PM
1) "More Broken" implies that even with your earlier interpretation it was still broken, which it wasn't because no one would ever waste a feat on it that way.

2) Wah wah, the PCs don't suck! How am I supposed to DM/play in a game where the players don't take toughness over and over? It's so hard to keep things balanced when the players are actually capable of taking useful feats.

1) Okay, it isn´t broken via my original interpretation. Via the, sadly, official interpretation, it is - applied to Enervation, for example, or Locate City. It enables the reliable execution of cheesy tactics relying heavily on metamagics, which normally wouldn´t be viable. With any Feat or Item, the worst possible case needs to be considered. Are Nightsticks cheesy if you use a single one to turn more zombies? No. Are they if you use them for DMM Persistent multibuffs from hell? Yes.
Worst case applies, and this reading of Arcane Thesis can do some ugly tricks, especially with spells which would never be considered really powerful on their own. These spells would, notably, also profit from the "minor" reading as well - Enervation is still good with my reading, but not the Split ray Empowered spell of 7 negative lvls for a lvl 6 slot/14 negative lvls for a lvl 9er.

2) See, I´d rather have a somewhat weak Feat than another "Shock Trooper"-like groundbreaking powerhouse which is indispensable for the build. If both the DM and the players operate at the higher end of the power curve, they curtail their own options a lot, since builds with similiar purposes will resemble each other more strongly by necessarily being closer to the "optimum combination" - or being considered gimpy in relation.
Frankly, I´m glad I have no "player empowerment" fanatics in my group.

2) I´d rather have a somewhat

Frosty
2008-04-01, 06:00 PM
Enervation and negative level isn't exactly the most reliable. Whole sections of monsters are plain immune like undead. Also, a simple 4th level spell lets humanoids be immune to it. At higher levels, many NPCs can also afford the enchantment on an armor to gain immunity. A 4th level spell called Ray Deflection also completely cripples your offense. It is not the end-all-be-all. Personally, I'd call Split Ray a tad underpriced if anything. It should be +3, not +2.

Also, Persistent Buffs are *just* as dispellable as other buffs.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 06:21 PM
1) Okay, it isn´t broken via my original interpretation. Via the, sadly, official interpretation, it is - applied to Enervation, for example, or Locate City. It enables the reliable execution of cheesy tactics relying heavily on metamagics, which normally wouldn´t be viable. With any Feat or Item, the worst possible case needs to be considered. Are Nightsticks cheesy if you use a single one to turn more zombies? No. Are they if you use them for DMM Persistent multibuffs from hell? Yes.
Worst case applies, and this reading of Arcane Thesis can do some ugly tricks, especially with spells which would never be considered really powerful on their own. These spells would, notably, also profit from the "minor" reading as well - Enervation is still good with my reading, but not the Split ray Empowered spell of 7 negative lvls for a lvl 6 slot/14 negative lvls for a lvl 9er.

2) See, I´d rather have a somewhat weak Feat than another "Shock Trooper"-like groundbreaking powerhouse which is indispensable for the build. If both the DM and the players operate at the higher end of the power curve, they curtail their own options a lot, since builds with similiar purposes will resemble each other more strongly by necessarily being closer to the "optimum combination" - or being considered gimpy in relation.
Frankly, I´m glad I have no "player empowerment" fanatics in my group.

2) I´d rather have a somewhat

The high level already exists. It has since book one where there were Clerics, Wizards, Druids, and everyone else.

Shocktrooper just made fighters and barbarians playable.

And no you don't consider the worst case scenario of X when determining balance, you consider how it affects you game. The worst case scenario is always how would Pun-Pun abuse X, nobody ever worries about that.

Arcane Thesis in it's most powerful state works only for one specific type of Wizard build, for everyone else it isn't worth it. And that one specific type of Wizard build isn't even as powerful as other builds using the same prestige class.

You just don't know how average Arcane Thesis is because you don't play high powered D&D (mostly because you complain about, probably ban, and refuse to use the top half of the game). I can play any character in any party and have fun. I'm not limiting my options, you are by declaring the better half of D&D too powerful. Eventually you'll probably call the top half of what you do play with too powerful too. And then you'll be playing 1/4 of the game.

Chronos
2008-04-01, 06:28 PM
The worst case scenario is always how would Pun-Pun abuse X, nobody ever worries about that.If more game designers did worry about that, then Pun-Pun wouldn't exist, since someone would have realized how potentially insanely broken the Sarrukh were.

Rutee
2008-04-01, 06:32 PM
2) See, I´d rather have a somewhat weak Feat than another "Shock Trooper"-like groundbreaking powerhouse which is indispensable for the build. If both the DM and the players operate at the higher end of the power curve, they curtail their own options a lot, since builds with similiar purposes will resemble each other more strongly by necessarily being closer to the "optimum combination" - or being considered gimpy in relation.
Frankly, I´m glad I have no "player empowerment" fanatics in my group

That you think the concepts of brokenness and player empowerment have any actual correlation with one another tells me there's a gap of understanding between you and any player empowerment concepts.


If more game designers did worry about that, then Pun-Pun wouldn't exist, since someone would have realized how potentially insanely broken the Sarrukh were.
Frankly, stopping Pun Pun-like situations is impossible. It requires the Game Designers to have more knowledge of their product then the players. Guess who spends more man hours on the product. That's why "WotC are morons for not seeing Combo XYZ" comments don't sit well with me. Sure, they're paid to do this, but there are only what, a few hundred designers, as opposed to a few /million/ players?

Solo
2008-04-01, 06:38 PM
Frankly, stopping Pun Pun-like situations is impossible. It requires the Game Designers to have more knowledge of their product then the players. Guess who spends more man hours on the product. That's why "WotC are morons for not seeing Combo XYZ" comments don't sit well with me. Sure, they're paid to do this, but there are only what, a few hundred designers, as opposed to a few /million/ players?

Well, if XY and Z are all in the same book (Or in the same class *coughdruidcough*, then the attitude is understandable, but getting Pun Pun to work requires several books published at different times, not something easily foreseeable.

valadil
2008-04-01, 07:23 PM
Back to the point, the reason you might take polar ray is because damage is always good. It's rarely the best thing you can do, but there are very few combat situations where dealing damage is undesirable. At higher levels, then enemy may actually be immune to all your save or suck abilities, so being able to throw out some damage is useful. Besides, what else does an evoker get against someone with evasion?

Would I rather have a maxed empowered twinned orb? Sure. Is that always an option? Not so much. The polar ray is a lot easier to pull off though and is way more accessible to the casual player who doesn't plan his builds ahead of time, or even refer to his characters as builds at all.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 07:33 PM
The polar ray is a lot easier to pull off though and is way more accessible to the casual player who doesn't plan his builds ahead of time, or even refer to his characters as builds at all.

So in other words: We should have more inferior options designed to trick inexperienced players into sucking.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 07:37 PM
Well, WoTC *did* advertise the Fighter as the Newbie Class of Choice.

Rutee
2008-04-01, 07:51 PM
You don't suck when you're bad compared to the maximum attainable possible; In that case, everyone sucks compared to Pun Pun. You suck when you can't accomplish the tasks you 'need' to do (4 encounters a level, or whatever the GM uses) in a remotely interesting manner.

Chronos
2008-04-01, 09:04 PM
Well, if XY and Z are all in the same book (Or in the same class *coughdruidcough*, then the attitude is understandable, but getting Pun Pun to work requires several books published at different times, not something easily foreseeable.In some cases, it's understandable that some exploits would get through. The two main ingredients of the infinite-damage crusader, for instance, are each individually perfectly fine, and are only broken when combined. But I still say that any decent quality control process would have stopped Pun-Pun cold. Sure, you need several different books to get Manipulate Form on a PC, but when they created the Sarrukh, someone should have stepped back and asked why some Sarrukh didn't turn itself into a god.

And personally, I'm not a big fan of Arcane Thesis, not because of game balance issues, but because it makes characters more one-dimensional. If you've got Arcane Thesis for, say, Enervation, and a bunch of metamagic feats chosen to work well with Enervation, then you're going to want to resolve every single combat with the same combination of Uberized Plural Triplicate Supersonic Leetified Enervation of Doom. It gets old after a while.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 09:09 PM
A wizard still has Solid Fog, Web, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. Lots of options when he runs out of uber Enervates.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 10:02 PM
And personally, I'm not a big fan of Arcane Thesis, not because of game balance issues, but because it makes characters more one-dimensional. If you've got Arcane Thesis for, say, Enervation, and a bunch of metamagic feats chosen to work well with Enervation, then you're going to want to resolve every single combat with the same combination of Uberized Plural Triplicate Supersonic Leetified Enervation of Doom. It gets old after a while.

Exactly, Arcane Thesis creates one trick ponies. Sure they can do other things, because they are lucky enough to be Incantatrix Wizards, but they probably didn't even take Persistent Spell. Single tricks are easy to beat. And that's why Arcane Thesis isn't broken.


You don't suck when you're bad compared to the maximum attainable possible; In that case, everyone sucks compared to Pun Pun. You suck when you can't accomplish the tasks you 'need' to do (4 encounters a level, or whatever the GM uses) in a remotely interesting manner.

Exactly, and Polar Ray is an example of one of those things that isn't going to help you take 4 encounters of your level. 1d6 per level to a single target? We have those, and have had them for the last of all levels. Polar Ray is damage, Damage is weak. Polar Ray is also the weakest damage you'll find. Try an energy substituted Maximized Scorching Ray for a 5th level spell that does as much damage. Or any Orb spell which does just as much until level 16, but ignores SR and is 4th level, and has an impairing effect. Thinking Polar Ray is going to be worth an eighth level slot is a good way to die.

Hell, even Warmages have it as a 6th level spell, because WotC realized no one would ever waste their time on an Eight level spell that does 16d6 damage and nothing else.

DementedFellow
2008-04-01, 10:19 PM
Maybe someone would take Polar Ray because they like the spell, or it fits with their character more than "MWAHAHA! I drain your levels!"

Heck, they could have a Mr. Freeze kinda character who specializes in an energy type spell list.

Choosing a spell because there are others out there doesn't mean your character is doomed to failure. You have have a totally workable character and not have it optimized. It just means X spell doesn't fit with the overall feel of your character. That's the best reason I can give for why someone would choose it, as there are admittedly more damaging spells (especially with metamagics) out there.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 10:36 PM
Maybe someone would take Polar Ray because they like the spell, or it fits with their character more than "MWAHAHA! I drain your levels!"

And if you want to build a character around that theme, there are about 7 better spells to choose.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 10:56 AM
Orb of Cold > Polar Ray?