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koldstare
2008-03-31, 11:32 PM
what do you guys think of this character? Also, does the VoP weapon enhancement bonus stack with that of Kensai?

I was going to build this character for a gestalt campaign we are starting in a couple of weeks lvl 6 to start with 32 point buy everyone is human.

I was thinking of going rouge on the other side of monk, but wasn't sure what to do there.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-03-31, 11:34 PM
what do you guys think of this character? Also, does the VoP weapon enhancement bonus stack with that of Kensai?

I was going to build this character for a gestalt campaign we are starting in a couple of weeks lvl 6 to start with 32 point buy everyone is human.

I was thinking of going rouge on the other side of monk, but wasn't sure what to do there.

Because I have to:

Rogue might be a better choice unless you are doing a kabuki character.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 11:39 PM
Please, read the basics section of the SRD. Enhancement bonuses don't stack. And I think you would look silly with rouge on your other side. Rogue might be better suited. Or a full caster maybe (hint hint). It's the only way to alleviate the pain of lack of flight (other than be a flying race).

Now, it can be a powerful combo if you do this: use Kensai to get +1 and then +x worth of special abilities. You will end up at 20 with +5 holy and +9 worth of other stuff. That's a +16 weapon.

koldstare
2008-03-31, 11:46 PM
Please, read the basics section of the SRD. Enhancement bonuses don't stack. And I think you would look silly with rouge on your other side. Rogue might be better suited. Or a full caster maybe (hint hint). It's the only way to alleviate the pain of lack of flight (other than be a flying race).

Now, it can be a powerful combo if you do this: use Kensai to get +1 and then +x worth of special abilities. You will end up at 20 with +5 holy and +9 worth of other stuff. That's a +16 weapon.

Thats more or less what i was talking about But I was wondering if the bonus from VoP lets you simply put +10 worth of abilities on the weapon

I just dont know what to put on the other side of the progression

Zincorium
2008-03-31, 11:48 PM
what do you guys think of this character? Also, does the VoP weapon enhancement bonus stack with that of Kensai?

I was going to build this character for a gestalt campaign we are starting in a couple of weeks lvl 6 to start with 32 point buy everyone is human.

I was thinking of going rouge on the other side of monk, but wasn't sure what to do there.

Alright, here goes:

You cannot use any weapon as a Kensai with vow of poverty except your fists (due to the conflicting must be masterwork or fists + cannot own masterwork weapons). If you do use your fists, you take the total of the enhancement bonus granted by vow of poverty and can enchant it with effects up to the total allowed by your kensai level, as your fists are going to be magical weapons with an enhancement bonus as given by the VoP chart. It's wasting a lot of the kensai's potential, but you do save a bit on xp sacrificed.


In gestalt, monk is best viewed as a secondary class. If your other side is rogue, you'll be better off focusing on your character as a skill monkey first and an offensive character 2nd. Monk augments rogue reasonably well, allowing the rogue to go unarmored, move quickly, and make multiple attacks at a penalty that decreases with levels.

Vow of poverty is simply not good for a rogue, as you are denied the use of all tools required for your skills. Vow of poverty grants no bonuses to make up for the reduction in your skills, especially when you factor in magical tools.

Additionally, you do not qualify for the vast majority of exalted feats that are granted by vow of poverty, and unless you are given absolutely minimal treasure, it's a bad deal overall. Also remember that it is really, really, stupidly easy to lose vow of poverty. And you'll have no items if you lose it in-character, meaning you may die rather quickly.

Rogue//monk/kensai is not too bad, the reverse is also possible but unfocused. Don't take vow of poverty unless you're already impoverished or it is vital to your character concept.

dman11235
2008-03-31, 11:50 PM
Alright, then let's get started. 1) spelling will help you have people not make fun of you. It's rogue, not rouge. Rouge is make-up.

2) what are you trying to do? I can't read minds, I only destroy them.

3) you need to make a weapon +1 before any special abilities. Since the VoP bonus is applied after everything, you still need to expend the xp to make it +1 first.

EDIT: If you have your Kensai bonus first, you can cheat the system a bit. Not that it's overpowered, you are playing a monk after all.

koldstare
2008-03-31, 11:56 PM
1 rogue... rouge... i hate spell check... and the fact that I cant type.

2 I'm not really sure yet. I know I want to make a fast character that can slip in and get out before taking a whole lot of damage. I know monks are generally disregarded overall. That is why I like playing them. I like to RP the underdog.

3 Thanks for that I didn't know that the VoP applied last. I thought it was a standard enhancement bonus.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 12:11 AM
You'll note that it says "every weapon you hold". That chair you just picked up could hardly have been enchanted before hand now could it?

Now, how do you want to do that? Like, a spring attack guy? Or Dervish? Would that be acceptable? 'Cause spring attack is terrible.

Zincorium
2008-04-01, 12:30 AM
1 rogue... rouge... i hate spell check... and the fact that I cant type.

It's like being trapped in the donner pass in winter with no hope of rescue, man. One of them is gonna have to go, and it won't be pretty.


2 I'm not really sure yet. I know I want to make a fast character that can slip in and get out before taking a whole lot of damage. I know monks are generally disregarded overall. That is why I like playing them. I like to RP the underdog.

Er, you like to RP the underdog, or you like to gimp your character? The first is just fine, but has absolutely no relation to what class you play, and the second should be weighed against the other members of your party. You're part of a group, if you can't contribute, is that really fair to everyone else? Always make sure you're not creating a weak point in the group, that's almost as bad as overshadowing someone else.

If you want to be a fast, mobile character, scout is pretty darned good, as is dervish. Monks and rogues both are full-attack characters, if you're darting in and out you'll get limited use of their class abilities.

Scout//ranger (or maybe fighter)/dervish is one of the more satisfying mobile, dexterous classes. Lots of fun to play.


3 Thanks for that I didn't know that the VoP applied last. I thought it was a standard enhancement bonus.

Er, it's kind of wierd.

At level 6, when you said you'll be starting, you won't even have taken the first level of kensai as a monk//rogue, because you haven't fulfilled the BAB requirement.

You'll have to wait until you've gained 8th level to take your first level of kensai. According to the way I'm reading Vow of Poverty, and obviously I don't have the only interpretation, your fists are treated as magical weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (other weapons don't matter, period), and as such, You cannot add any enhancement to them using kensai.

At level 9, you can add a special ability, but at 10th level you can't enchant your weapon beyond +3 total, and your fists are now +2 weapons, so that ability you added at 9th is all you can have. And so forth.

Bottom line:

It's a mess. Don't go that route.

Hario
2008-04-01, 12:36 AM
I think a Monk/Kensai//Druid would be fairly brutal, especially with all of the extra enahncements you can add. Wildshape into a fleshraker and kill everything, and I mean everything...

Full Caster, 3/4 BAB, Full Saves, magic upgraded natural attacks, wildshape, melee beast. If you need to otherwise bear warrior is nice and so is any wildshape/shapeshifting class for this type of build

Cuddly
2008-04-01, 02:04 AM
There's a skill trick in complete scoundrel that will let you pick locks and stuff without tools.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 09:05 AM
Enhancing on that build of yours: monk5/warshaper 5/kensai 10//druid 20.

@Zircorium: Look at VoP enhancements like GMW or GMF. They don't preclude you from benefiting from Kensai, so why should this? Just have the kensai bonus bring you to the max it can be, and THEN add on the VoP bonus, since doing it otherwise implies that your fists, chair you picked up, dagger have always been enchanted, and will always be enchanted.

Mordokai
2008-04-01, 09:10 AM
I think a Monk/Kensai//Druid would be fairly brutal, especially with all of the extra enahncements you can add. Wildshape into a fleshraker and kill everything, and I mean everything...

Full Caster, 3/4 BAB, Full Saves, magic upgraded natural attacks, wildshape, melee beast. If you need to otherwise bear warrior is nice and so is any wildshape/shapeshifting class for this type of build

This combo isn't possible, if for nothing else, alignment prerequsites. Otherwise, I'll admit it looks good.

Zincorium
2008-04-01, 09:20 AM
Enhancing on that build of yours: monk5/warshaper 5/kensai 10//druid 20.

@Zircorium: Look at VoP enhancements like GMW or GMF. They don't preclude you from benefiting from Kensai, so why should this? Just have the kensai bonus bring you to the max it can be, and THEN add on the VoP bonus, since doing it otherwise implies that your fists, chair you picked up, dagger have always been enchanted, and will always be enchanted.

But your fists have always been a +1 weapon and always will be a +1 weapon as long as you have the feat and are fourth level or above. The dagger and improvised weapon don't matter for the purpose of kensai, so I'm focusing on the fists.

If it was done the way you suggest, the VoP bonus wouldn't matter until 10th when it rose to +2, and then only if all 'plusses' slots were filled with miscellaneous effects. Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack.

In any case, my point above still stands. It's a mess. I guarantee I'm not the only one reading it differently than you, and there are probably still others who have other conclusions.

Add in the fact that most DMs would flat-out smite anyone who tried it for being overly cheesy, especially with your interpretation, and I can't see any reason whatsoever to recommend having both.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 02:47 PM
I know that. But what happens if you have a weapon with GMW cast on it and you have VoP? The same thing.

Oh, and this is not bad at all. GMW can let non-VoPers do the same thing. And it's only a 3rd level spell. I'm pretty sure there's a spell to make your weapon holy/axiomatic/unholy/anarchic as well (SpC?). So really it's no more powerful than normal. The difference: you are sacrificing two feats and 10 class levels to do this, where as normally you just need a bunch of gold and a friendly arcanist or cleric (or druid: GMF) who can cast GMW on you every morning. Which by spending another 9,000 or 16,000 (16 for clerics, it's 4th level for them for some reason) you can have them not care that they prepared it for you.

Also, what if you lose the vow? Do you suddenly gain a bunch of enhancements? I find it to be much more of a strain to play it the way you do, and much more reasonable to play it the way I do (kensai makes for a great VoP character flavorwise, why gimp them? It's hardly a strong class, it's alright, but hardly strong).

Paul H
2008-04-01, 06:07 PM
Hi

I can understand the Kensai bit, but what's the concept of monk/Rogue?

LN Druid 8/Kensai looks good, take Wpn Focus Claw at 6th, then add your Kensai bonuses to claws in Dire Ape form.

If you can wait that long, Druid 7/Mstr Many Forms 3/Kensai xx is better. You could just go Druid 6, but Enhanced Wildshape (SpC) is 4th lvl, and you gain the extra-ordinary abilities when in Annis or Green Hag form. (Green Hag 9HD, so need 9 lvls of Wildshape)

Cheers
Paul H