PDA

View Full Version : Build Critique



Jack Zander
2008-04-01, 09:52 PM
Note: CORE ONLY. If you suggest something outside of the PHB, DMG, or MMI, you will be laughed at by some nerdy college kid sitting in front of a computer who thinks you cannot read.

My DM is running a thievery campaign. He's told us that every mission can be completed without a single fight breaking out. With this in mind, I set out to create the ultimate thief optimized for his skills and ingenuity with no regards to combat (I'll let the others bail me out if I screw up). I think the build is complete but I would like a second (or third) opinion.

Unnamed, 1st-Level Rogue
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Points: 6
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Dagger +0 melee (1d4) or hand crossbow +2 ranged (1d4)
Full Attack: Dagger +0 melee (1d4) or hand crossbow +2 ranged (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak attack +1d6
Special Qualities: Trapfinding
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
Skills (ranks): Bluff +6(4), Diplomacy +6(4), Disguise +7(3), Escape Artist +6(4), Forgery +7(4), Gather Information +5(3), Hide +7(3), Listen +5(4), Move Silently +7(3), Search +7(4), Sleight of Hand +6(4), Spot +5(4), Use Magic Device +9(4)
Feats: Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Stealthy
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Equipment: Dagger, hand crossbow, crossbow bolts (10), caltrops (1), vial of ink, ink pen, very simple lock, small steel mirror, paper (1), parchment (3), antitoxin (1), smokestick (3), tanglefoot bag (1), disguise kit, wand of knock (2 charges), gold pieces (16), silver pieces (9)
Load: 21 lbs. (light)

I decided not to get disable device and open lock (gasp!). As long as I can find the trap, I should be able to avoid it, or disarm it in other ways, and I'm going to rely on my wand of knock to open doors (hopefully I can earn some gold quickly to buy a fully charged one soon).

Ability scores were point bought (30 points) so if there is a better way to arrange them, please suggest so.

Basically, I'm going for the guy who has just the right tool for the job and always has at least 3 ways of doing something. At first I'll rely on my mundane items, but later I'll probably be using scrolls and wands.

Please do not suggest anything to do with combat. My plan is to flee, or surrender if it really comes down to it. I will most likely have a fencer type character to hide behind if I need to. No armor as I want to look as typical as possible, and I want to easily be able to change into other people's armor or clothes if I need to disguise myself as someone that I have assassinated.

Also, a humorous name (like Perry Fenserson) would really top off this character.

Thanks, playgrounders!

PS: Any future advice would be good too such as multiclassing or prestige classes.

holywhippet
2008-04-01, 10:37 PM
a) I'd be tempted to switch to a halfling for race. They get several bonuses that are good for the budding rogue. You could also pick a gnome as they get a few racial magic abilities.

b) No ranks in climb? I'd replace your ranks in escape artist with ranks in climb for first level. You aren't likely to be imprisoned so early in the game.

c) I don't know about your argument regarding traps. If I was your GM I'd say "disarming it in some other way" would almost certainly call for the disable device feat in many cases. If a chest has a needle trap, it's not something you can easily get around without disabling it.

TempusCCK
2008-04-01, 10:52 PM
Man, you really really really need climb. As a thiefy sort who's going to avoid combat in a city, that's silliness. I'd put less into Forgery, it might be useful, but you should be able to pass without it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 10:58 PM
I'd probably make the Intelligence 14 vice 16 and raise Constitution from 10 to 14 since the PC will not necessarily take the right actions every time to keep things from escalating to combat.

Feat wise I'd lose Skill Focus UMD at level 1 when the PC should not have had time to acquire that skill in game (No wealth so no magic items to practice on but that is my personal bias).

Something to consider is suggested wealth by level is 900 gp at L2 and 2,700 gp at L3 so it really depends on how PCs get to use that wealth in game. Plently of games where that could be something like +1 Leather and a +1 Dagger which isn't so great and actually excedes L3 suggested wealth by level while other campaigns let PCs acquire lots of low level utlitiy magic and prorated magic items so UMD rocks.

I favor Improved Initiative for going first in a point buy campaign maybe with Stealthy or Toughness or Run or Skill Focus Diplomacy (Campaign dependent).

I'd suggest Dodge or Mobility for future PRCing into something like Shadow Dancer in a long term campaign despite the DM saying it will be a low or no combat game.

Just in case you need a laugh from the SRD open content (a variant Rogue, a variant Thug and the Urban Ranger) :

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er

Breaw
2008-04-01, 11:29 PM
So yeah: I'd say :

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10

or

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10

The only thing Wis and Cha are going to help with are some secondary skills. Str is good for acrobatic abilities and will help you stab a thing when you absolutely have to. You may want to max out dex to help you get out of stick situations.

As far as skills:

I would definitely lose some diplomacy and/or bluff as well as some forgery in lieu of climb and disable device.

You DEFINITELY want maxed out disable device, and enough climb to make straight forward climbs with a grappling hook + rope to be trivial. Use rope would be a good thing to drop a few points in instead of some use magic device or other things I've listed.

Are you doing this as a solo campaign? Cause if not then this really changes things. You will have a tough time being the sneaky guy who is almost impossible to find AND can talk his way out of it when he was found.

I would choose between the perception/acrobatic/sneak/disable device rogue and the bluff/diplomacy, slight of hand/forgery rogue. I wouldn't do both, you'll spread yourself too thin. If you are doing this with others you can have one be the face of the thief crew, and the other be the sneaky type, while the third can be the assassin type.

I would pick a style if I were you, and stick to it. You will have limitations, but you can't (and shouldn't try) to be good at everything. On a side note, wand of knock feels wrong to me, wand of sleep? Maybe. Knock? How embarrassing!

My 2 cents.

Just re-read the 'totally thief no combat' deal. If that's the case you might use 12 wis instead of str for better perception, but str is a good thing to have even if you don't plan on stabbing things. That in mind I strongly encourage wand of sleep to disable running guards and avoid conflict.

Solo
2008-04-01, 11:33 PM
You'll want to make use of magical items for this character, to enhance his sneakiness.

Go as Sir Giacomo for magic item and UMD advice. he seems to be rather good at it.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 02:58 AM
I thought about my race, but a small race makes it very hard for me to disguise myself, and really anything but human doesn't make sense for my character to thrive in human lands, which is where we will spend most of out time. If I have to, I could easily make my character to look like an elf. By the time we enter and small people lands, alter self should be available.

Pah, ranks in climb when we have spells like spider climb? Not to mention a knotted rope against a wall is a DC 5...

"Disarming in other ways" means things like setting it off and making sure it's not a resetting trap (sacrificial summon monsters).

A trapped chest is very easy to bypass. You just have to open it from behind if it's a dart or needle trap. Most you could probably drill into with the right tool, or simply bash it open. You've gotta think smart, not with your stats.

We've got a sorcerer who has sleep learned. No sleep for me thanks. Besides, I couldn't reliably use a wand in combat (50% success chance). But since I dumped open lock, I really need a way to open doors and chests that we can't find a key to. I'm hoping that I don't run into more than 2 un-bypassable locks before acquiring 4,500 gp (since I could only afford to start with a 2nd-level wand with 2 charges).

Being a utility focused game, I actually think Jack of all Trades is the way to go here. I may not be able to beat the guards combat ability, but I can beat his spot and listen, or his opposed forgery, or his sense motive, etc. By spreading out just a little I leave myself with more options and more backup plans. One trick ponies will lose very quickly here, since as soon as they become predictable, their opponents will be able to learn how to defeat them.

When I said no combat, I really mean 0 combat. This isn't a solo game, I've got a combat focused rogue/fighter, a sorcerer, and a ranger backing me up. At the first sign of trouble, I'll throw a smokestick and scram (no loss of exp either since the DM is awarding exp based on completion of a mission, not per encounter).

Also, because this isn't solo, I think I can rely on at least one other person having disable device. If the ranger focuses on spot and listen I may want to swap those out. The only other character made so far is the sorcerer though. Here's his stats:

Ergo The Magnificent, 1st-Level Sorcerer
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hit Points: 5
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft. (6 Squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Rapier + 0 (1d6) or Light Crossbow +2 ranged (1d8)
Full Attack: Rapier + 0 (1d6) or Light Crossbow +2 ranged (1d8)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Familiar (Raven)
Saves: Fort +1 Ref +2 Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16
Skills: Appraise +3, Bluff +6, Concentration +4, Hide +6, Move Silently +6, Spellcraft +4,
{(With Familiar/Without) Listen +1/3, Spot +1/3}
Feats: Alertness (When Familiar is near), Stealthy, Point Blank Shot
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Equipment: Caltrops (4), Manacles (1), Sunrod (4), Backpack, Smokestick (3), Antitoxin (2), Acid Flask (3),
Alchemist's Fire (3), Disguise Kit, Hempen Rope (50ft), Grappling Hook, Crowbar, Climber's Kit, Rapier, Light Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts (10), Oil Pint Flask (6), Tinder twig (9), gold pieces (99).
Starting Spell List:
0- (6/day)
Detect Magic
Ghost Sounds
Mage Hand
Message
1- (4/day)
Animate Rope
Sleep

Something I forgot to mention, DM said starting gold was 500 gp for everyone.

holywhippet
2008-04-02, 04:08 AM
Pah, ranks in climb when we have spells like spider climb? Not to mention a knotted rope against a wall is a DC 5...

Spider climb? That's a second level spell which means you'll need a either a level 3 druid/wizard or a level 4 sorcerer to cast it on you. That means you won't have access to it from the start. Unless of course you get it in potion form, but potions of spider climb are 300 gold each to buy which is out of your price range. The climb skill can be used at any time and costs nothing to use. It will also work even in anti-magical fields.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 04:18 AM
Spider climb? That's a second level spell which means you'll need a either a level 3 druid/wizard or a level 4 sorcerer to cast it on you. That means you won't have access to it from the start. Unless of course you get it in potion form, but potions of spider climb are 300 gold each to buy which is out of your price range. The climb skill can be used at any time and costs nothing to use. It will also work even in anti-magical fields.

That still doesn't cover the second part of my rebuttal in which I pointed out that it's only a DC 5 for me to climb any outside wall in the city. And as long as I'm not being shot at, I can take a 10.

holywhippet
2008-04-02, 05:31 AM
That still doesn't cover the second part of my rebuttal in which I pointed out that it's only a DC 5 for me to climb any outside wall in the city. And as long as I'm not being shot at, I can take a 10.

Are you expecting to enter a city where every wall has a convinient notted rope waiting for you? If not, then you are going to need to use a grapnel hook on the end of that rope. Grapnel hooks are metal and tend to make a distinct noise when they hit either metal or stone. This will alert any guards nearby and make them come running.

You can't assume the DC of all the walls will all be 5. Well built walls will have a higher DC - from the SRD "A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall." has a DC of 25.

Lucyfur
2008-04-02, 08:36 AM
There's some bad advise in this thread!:smallbiggrin: Definitely keep Bluff, Diplo, and UMD maxed. Social skills along with sneaking is what will keep you out of combat the most. It's risky not taking disable devise, but I like your explanation of getting around that, so it could be worth a shot.

One skill that seems good, but actually rarely used in game is slight of hand. I don't think I've ever been in a game where that skill is needed, but that's different from DM to DM I guess.

Good luck with your character, it looks very interesting.

Breaw
2008-04-02, 09:36 AM
There's some bad advise in this thread!:smallbiggrin: Definitely keep Bluff, Diplo, and UMD maxed. Social skills along with sneaking is what will keep you out of combat the most. It's risky not taking disable devise, but I like your explanation of getting around that, so it could be worth a shot.

One skill that seems good, but actually rarely used in game is slight of hand. I don't think I've ever been in a game where that skill is needed, but that's different from DM to DM I guess.

Good luck with your character, it looks very interesting.

Don't get me wrong, the diplomacy skills are very useful (especially in this type of setting). But it wasn't the character he was describing. Being a sneaky thief who can't climb or disable device is not being a sneaky rogue.

If what you want to do is bypass skillchecks with spells then why are you rolling a rogue at all? Knock for opening things, featherfall and spiderclimb for getting up or down walls, invis to trivialize non magic protection, sleep the guards... Play a wizard.

I mean, feel free to go either way with it, but to be a really effective spy rogue takes 8ish skills (Bluff, diplomacy, forgery, sense motive, disguise, decipher script, spot, listen, open lock, and maybe UMD), while being an effective thief takes 10ish of it's own (climb, disable device, escape artist, hide, listen, move silently, open lock, disable device, search, sleight of hand, spot, maybe UMD).

There are 4 overlap skills between the two sets I listed.

I'm not saying you have to choose one set or the other, but if the role you fill in the party is 'thief' then be the thief. If you are bypassing thief skills with magic, then be the charismatic spy, because with invis, spiderclimb and knock a wizard is a better thief than most thieves. You can always pick some hybrid of the two, but I wouldn't bother with it unless you are needed to fill 2 gaps at once.

Anyway, I 'm all about finding out what role needs to be filled and filling it, if I misunderstand the role you want/need to fill then I recant these statements.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 11:29 AM
Okay, here's the role I'm going for, McGuiver. Wizards are too limited. UMD is endless.

I need sleight of hand to hide things on my body so I can not attract suspicion (I may also need to pick pocket an item off of someone for a mission). I need forgery to do the simple disguise, show papers, and enter routine. Escape artist is great for purposely getting caught then gaining a better position (think Luke and Leia's plan when rescuing Han from Jabba).

Here's a question, which skills should I max out and which can I raise to a certain point and then be done with them (I'm thinking Gather Info can probably stop once I reach a +10 bonus with it, same with Disguise, since eventually I'll have magic to enhance it).

Breaw
2008-04-02, 12:36 PM
That is a significantly easier question. The ones you'll want to pretty much max will be those that have opposed rolls. Bluff to counter sense motive, spot to counter hide, hide to counter spot and so on.

Some abilities get capped preemptively because you can take a 20 most of the time. If you can take your time doing it, you can take a 20 with disguise, then magic will generally give you a +10 to the check, so like 10 ranks and you're golden.

Some skills you have specific plans for. You want to be able to generally tumble away from at least 2 enemies (DC 17), figure out what chance of failure you are willing to accept.

You will pretty much always want at least 5 ranks, and as you level you'll quickly decide for your character/campaign which things you'll need to really keep up and which things are static.

Unless you want to scale sheer walls, climb has a cap, unless you want to tumble through 5 peoples squares, tumble has a cap.

I picked skills as good examples, not as things you were necessarily taking.

Solo
2008-04-02, 12:43 PM
Okay, here's the role I'm going for, McGuiver.


Be a bard. Grab the feat Jack of all Trades, the alternate bard class feature Bardic Knack, and she bardic spell Improvisation.

Make every skill check, ever!

TempusCCK
2008-04-02, 01:00 PM
It's a Core only game Solo, no cheesing out skill checks on this one.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 03:24 PM
Be a bard. Grab the feat Jack of all Trades, the alternate bard class feature Bardic Knack, and she bardic spell Improvisation.

Make every skill check, ever!

Hehehehehehe...

Solo
2008-04-02, 03:29 PM
It's a Core only game Solo, no cheesing out skill checks on this one.

And yet Jack mentioned the feat Jack of All Trades, which is decidedly not core.

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-02, 06:40 PM
I think he was referring to the concept of a Jack of All Trades, and not necessarily the feat of the same name. Also, you can probably limit the ranks you put into forgery since nobody who isn't a rogue will have any ranks in it and you can take 20.

TempusCCK
2008-04-02, 06:45 PM
A few ranks in Forgery just to get the training and you'll be alright, as far as PrC's go, in a Core only game, you're pretty well screwed, there is no PrC for what you want.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 10:30 PM
A few ranks in Forgery just to get the training and you'll be alright, as far as PrC's go, in a Core only game, you're pretty well screwed, there is no PrC for what you want.

That's just as good for me. I'm fine for straight rogue. Would adding any spell casting levels help? My initial thought is no, but what do you guys think?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-02, 11:04 PM
I was about to give that very same advice Solo before I read your post Solo. Core only is so limiting, and a bit overkill. :smallsigh:

Jack Zander
2008-04-03, 12:59 AM
Core only is my personal limit. The DM will probably let us use anything we have access to which would be the PHBII, complete warrior, and that 3.0 rouge and bard guide (I've always called it lutes and loot).

I like to tone down my character a bit so I usually stick to core. If you can convince me to use a feat or something in one of those book listed, I might change my mind.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-03, 02:40 AM
So you're playing a rogue not for the 3/4 BaB, or the sneak attack, or the other combat abilities. Just the skills and the trapfinding. And you want to use magic to complement/replace skills. I suggest taking a small step outside of core and...

No. Beguiler is too good for this campaign. TOO GOOD.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 02:53 AM
Go Halfling or Gnome (both have things to recommend them) Sorcerer. Casters are much better thieves than Rogue's. Or Bard.

1st Level Spells Known: Sleep, Disguise Self
Cantrips Known: Detect Magic, Dancing Lights/Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation

pasko77
2008-04-03, 04:33 AM
As others pointed out, you're NOT making a rogue.
You want a bard.

i'd disagree with Emperor Tippy on sleep. Given the social use of the character, i prefer charme... but it's personal choice.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 04:45 AM
As others pointed out, you're NOT making a rogue.
You want a bard.

i'd disagree with Emperor Tippy on sleep. Given the social use of the character, i prefer charme... but it's personal choice.

I figure he will be pumping Diplomacy and Bluff anyways, in which case its quite nice to have a spell to put the guard to sleep for a bit. Or the guard dog.

But Bard or Sorcerer for your class.

pasko77
2008-04-03, 04:51 AM
I figure he will be pumping Diplomacy and Bluff anyways, in which case its quite nice to have a spell to put the guard to sleep for a bit. Or the guard dog.

But Bard or Sorcerer for your class.

I've always thought sleep is for wizards, who, at a certain point, will stop memorizing it, since it doesn't level well.
Charme is forever :)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-03, 05:09 AM
Of course, there's already an arcanist in the party (who has sleep), and you might not want to step on his toes. I'd suggest Bard over Sorcerer (more skill points, less redundant), or for my sake, you could just get rid of your core restriction and go Factotum, or Spellthief, or at least UA Feat Rogue/Sense-making-PrC. That way you get something out of your class features other than skill points and trapfinding. You can limit yourself in your awesome power despite straying from core. I know you can do it.

But, like I implied before, you'd pretty much have to intentionally megagimp yourself if you went Beguiler.

Conclusion? Laugh at me and play a Bard.

Jack Zander
2008-04-03, 09:46 AM
Bard would be great, but then I have 8 less skill points to spend. I suppose I could forgo listen and spot though... if I really have to...

Beguiler sounds sweet, maybe I should forgo my usual letting the other players do something for once and go ahead and cheese my guy out. I'll have to look at the class first though.

TempusCCK
2008-04-03, 10:53 AM
Yeah, Beguiler might be the way for you to go. You're talking about a heavy magic reliance anyway. I personall don't like the Beguiler because I think that it's better to challenge yourself with a non-spellcasting class every once in a while.