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Ascension
2008-04-01, 10:12 PM
I was thinking about this the other day while I was building my sorcerer's spell list. Wizards can learn whatever the heck they want, but sorcerers' abilities are inborn. Wouldn't that tend to lead to themed sets of abilities?

We rolled stats and my sorcerer (Giacomo Giovanni... no relation to Sir Giacomo, or else he would be a monk... I just wanted a flamboyant name that would roll off the tongue during introductions.) ended up with a strength of seven (actually, he ended up with five, the DM "mercifully" let me put two points of my WIS into STR... and then hit me with strength sapping poison. But that's another story.)

Anyway, I decided to give him a backstory built around the inhumanly low strength score. He was trying to impress a girl (and doing fairly well with his high CHA) back in his home village, when he suddenly realized that he had forgotten to bring flowers for her. In a moment of panic, he accidentally manifested Prestidigitation and made a simplistic artificial flower appear in his hand out of midair. The girl's reaction was more along the lines of frightened for her life than impressed, and she screamed for her father. When the protective father showed up, he panicked again, wishing that somehow he could level the playing field between them. Suddenly, bam, Ray of Enfeeblement. His vengeance for all those childhood insults was finally enabled. He could make anyone as weak as he was.

Long story short, he ended up exiled from the village, barely spared from the executioner's axe, but the memories of his shame and humiliation have lingered. Most of his spells revolve around the theme of buffing and debuffing, either making himself and his allies stronger or making his enemies weaker. No direct damage at all, little battlefield control (although he has these wanded, he's not an idiot), mostly just buffing and debuffing, all because of the continuing strength complex which is the root of his powers.

So anyway, my question is this: Do your sorcerers generally have a wizardly jumble of various spells, or do you try to justify your powers with an overarching theme?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-01, 10:16 PM
I try to give them something of a theme. It's not perfect, because there are some spells that are just vital, but they usually are pretty good.

Prometheus
2008-04-01, 10:21 PM
I think spellcasters of any sort should have an in-character justification for why they pick the spells that they do. In practice it doesn't happen, or everyone's "justification" is "Wouldn't everyone want the spells that protect themselves the best?". I had a paranoid spellcaster once who focused on searching and preventing danger rather than confronting it.

I think compared to wizards, sorcerers have the best rp-opportunity for having an exotic racial connection (bloodlines, templates, race etc).

The_Snark
2008-04-01, 10:25 PM
I generally go for a certain feel when picking spells. For a fey-themed sorceror, I usually go with lots of enchantments, simple illusions, curses and luck-spells, and any nature-oriented spells I can pick up. I had a similar witch-like character, who had a rather nasty array of curses and hexes ranging from things like Backbiter and Blindness all the way up to Flesh to Stone, and then a smaller number of blessing-like spells (ability enhancing things, mostly).

Usually, I end up with a few oddities, both because some spells (like Dispel Magic) are just really handy, and because there aren't enough spells that fit perfectly to fill out the whole list, and even if there are a lot of them overlap. But for the most part, my sorcerors (and psions, for that matter) have a fairly consistent theme to their spells.

dman11235
2008-04-01, 10:27 PM
Theme. Definitely a theme. Otherwise, you risk losing your advantage over the wizard: quantity. You can't do a wizardly jumble of spells, because you don't have the spells known to support it. Though I do take utility where necessary.

Lord Iames Osari
2008-04-01, 10:35 PM
It depends, really. Sometimes my sorcs are just people with an inborn talent for magic in general; other times, they have specific themes to their spell lists.

Collin152
2008-04-01, 10:43 PM
Depends on the concept.
I prefer the themed spellists, though.

Solo
2008-04-01, 10:44 PM
I think spellcasters of any sort should have an in-character justification for why they pick the spells that they do. In practice it doesn't happen, or everyone's "justification" is "Wouldn't everyone want the spells that protect themselves the best?". I had a paranoid spellcaster once who focused on searching and preventing danger rather than confronting it.

I think compared to wizards, sorcerers have the best rp-opportunity for having an exotic racial connection (bloodlines, templates, race etc).

Ozymandias's justification for picking his spells was "because they're f*cking awesome".

It helps that he went to a Arcane University where they helped the students make informed choices as to their spells.


I tend to select spells based on their effectiveness in the campaign i'm in, so there's not always an underlying theme, though I may focus on one school or concept more than the others.

Collin152
2008-04-01, 10:47 PM
It helps that he went to a Arcane University where they helped the students make informed choices as to their spells.



Instead of gettign it off the streets and learning what their friends learned?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-01, 10:48 PM
If your DM doesn't mind collaborative Char-gen, a Focused Specialist Wizard and a Sorcerer who uses mainly those 3 schools work really well together. Especially if you come up with a cool/fun backstory for the 2 of them.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 10:48 PM
I like to use a Dragon magazine Bloodline feat or a feat like the Nexus Method feat. Applying the UA/SRD variant Domain wizards is a nice way to add a small bump to a sorcerer with a little more daily spellcasting and a few more useful (not uber) known spells.

Even with a generalist that is a very significant percentage of their known spells particularly at low levels and still respectable at very high levels (20%+).

PRC wise there are themed PRCs like the Blood Magus, Fiend blooded or Dracolexi or Wild Mage or Wild Soul or Sand Shaper.

I also like semi-formally trained generalist sorcerers who enter a PRC like Mage of the Arcane Order or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep.

DarknessLord
2008-04-01, 11:44 PM
I think the idea of the Sorcerer picking the spells they get isn't true in many cases, it's just what they happen to be able to do with their magical gifts. But that's just my personal take on their fluff. So, yeah, a theme should be important, but I think some basic function spells can be justified by the fact that their basic magical function.

Although, I do like the previously mentioned theme of "because they're f*cking awesome".

Solo
2008-04-01, 11:51 PM
Instead of gettign it off the streets and learning what their friends learned?

Friends? Ozymandias has no need of friends!

Collin152
2008-04-01, 11:55 PM
Friends? Ozymandias has no need of friends!

So... he doesn't cast charm person?

Ascension
2008-04-01, 11:58 PM
Friends? Ozymandias has no need of friends!

CHA score the size of a planet and they let the fighter's sword be the party 'face'...

Mojo_Rat
2008-04-02, 12:10 AM
As far as theme for sorcerer spells go. Doesnt the DMG offer the idea of alternaive spell lists for sorcerer theme? I believe it used a Witch example. I dont have the book handy however just going by memory. I remembered i liked the Idea but never did anything with it.

Gensuru
2008-04-02, 08:24 AM
Well i canīt claim to have that much pen and paper experience (more of a PC-gamer) yet so far both my sorcerers AND my wizards tended to have some sort of theme in their spells. That did not always have something to do with some character theme but also with my personal preference. For example i once had a sorcerer that had a theme that one would possibly describe as "Firestorm" or something. Even though it wasnīt all that smart he had mostly attacking spells...little defense but maximum offense. My recent wizards tended to be a little more balanced in terms of offense and defense but they also had a certain type of...pattern if you will. They all followed a "clean kill" pattern using spells that specificaly hit only the targets (so nothing like fireballs and similar stuff). Also they hardly used any spells that only hinder opponents (confusing spells and all that stuff). Though after some describtions on this forum i will certainly reconsider the use of those...

My favorite spell being desintegrate followed by flesh to stone is an example of the type of spells i like to use. Sure i do know that they are harldy the most versatile or effective spells but for some reasons i simply like them.

valadil
2008-04-02, 08:31 AM
I'd rather take a Bloodline feat to get 9 spells and call that my theme. Sorcerers just don't get enough spells to afford to have a theme if they want to remain effective. I'm sure it's not just me, but if I'm lagging behind the rest of the group I'm going to be bored and frustrated.

Saph
2008-04-02, 08:42 AM
The best way I know to build a Sorcerer is to think of it as building a superhero. What are you going to pick for your superpowers?

The idea that theming your spell selection makes it ineffective is very wrong. You just need to think creatively. Most players don't use their spells to anywhere near their full potential; they assign one use to each spell and forget about it. But most spells can be used in lots of different ways, if you just think about it for a bit.

Again, think about superheroes. Superheroes regularly get put in situations where their standard powers can't easily solve the problem, but they still manage to win. It's more fun that way. :)

- Saph

senrath
2008-04-02, 09:30 AM
I tend to select spells based on their effectiveness in the campaign i'm in, so there's not always an underlying theme, though I may focus on one school or concept more than the others.

That's exactly how I pick my spells. Although I'm tempted to make one who pretty much only uses the Bigby spells, and then takes levels in Argent Savant.

Burley
2008-04-02, 09:47 AM
I try to keep a common theme to my spells. I aim for lots of spell synergy and stuff, too.
Though not a sorcerer, I'm making a druid/ninja right now. He's from a ninja clan in the forest and focuses on shapeshifting and wind "jitsu". So, I took the shapeshifting variant (PHB2) and I'll make sure I prepare every spell with the [Air] descriptor...since most of them are good spells. (Except Deep Breath...What the f?) Also, I've learned that the reserve feats for Air spells would be very useful, too. Also...he's got an afro and summons snakes.

P.S.-Yeah...that's right. Afro-ninja with snakes.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-02, 09:54 AM
I've got a good-aligned Infernal Sorcerer Heritage sorc ready to go right now, and the spell-list is fairly themed- I've given up the AWESOMENESS that is Mirror Image for the theme.

:smalleek:

Chronicled
2008-04-02, 10:05 AM
I think having a theme makes sorcerers more fun to play; that said, it can be difficult to remain as effective if you're not experienced in character building. What really helps is having a DM that will let you reflavor spell effects (Example: For an air-themed sorcerer who wants Mirror Image... how about a spell that creates several balls of wind swirling around you that attempt to suck an enemy's weapon into them--for the same mechanical benefit?). Otherwise, the already mentioned Bloodline feats are quite helpful.

toysailor
2008-04-02, 10:16 AM
I think one of the problems with the themed Sorcerors mentioned thus far is that they easily fall into the niche of high CHA -> negotiator -> enchantment spells. It is hard to play anything but a high CHA Sorceror and having Intimidate as a cross-class skill makes it such that Sorcerors end up predominantly as diplomats or liars. It'll be cool to see a burly, 7ft tall sorceror growling "Talk-or-I'll-Fireball-Your-Face" but I believe it doesn't happen that often =/

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-02, 10:17 AM
Of course, the theme can actually make you a bit better with appropriate with feats- Infernal Sorcerer, for example, has the tasty Howl (1st-level spell slot for a 2d6 damage 30ft Sonic cone? Count me in!).

Egill
2008-04-02, 09:00 PM
I do not think that spell selection and themes have to be an example of mutual exclusivity. Any spell can be re-fluffed to reflect your theme; rename the spell and describe the visual effects in a different manner.

A sorcerer who has the blood of a fire djinn? But wants to use Magic Missile? Don't call it force, say that he is channeling the universal destructive nature of flame, not flame itself. Fluff it up so that he discovered this source while meditating on the nature of fire or some such thing. Make his hands glow "as if aflame" when he casts the spell.

Since we are dealing with myth here, anything can be anything.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-02, 10:29 PM
I've got a light theme going. Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, that sort of thing. Of course, I do cheat here and there with a bit of reflavor (Shining Fog... right?) but on the whole its very nice going for my somewhat pacifistic merchant.

Talya
2008-04-03, 09:18 AM
I think y'all know the theme of my sorceress.

Solo
2008-04-03, 09:31 AM
I think y'all know the theme of my sorceress.

I believe we need a firmer grasp of the issue. Please expand upon would you just said.

Zenos
2008-04-03, 09:39 AM
Not exactly a character, but my Druid//Swordsage's cohort kobold sorcerer uses loads of transmutation spells seeing as he is themed around making magic items.

Ascension
2008-04-03, 10:04 AM
P.S.-Yeah...that's right. Afro-ninja with snakes.

This would be the one and only instance (okay, wait, second and almost-only instance, got to allow Whitestar) in which I would allow the Planar Shepherd PrC. Just so he can get those *expletive deleted* snakes off his *expletive deleted* plane.

Oh, and, at the risk of sounding like an idiot, what in the name of Endicott Peabody are Bloodline feats and where may they be found? (I'm guessing one of the magicky Completes. I've only got the mundane ones. And Divine. Which was given to me free.)

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 10:28 AM
I present to you: Bloodlines! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)

Chronicled
2008-04-03, 11:21 AM
The Bloodline feats are found here (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf), under the "Sorcerer Only" section. They were originally in Dragon Magazine.