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Frosty
2008-04-01, 10:17 PM
If you had to choose between 60 HP and 30 AC, or 120 HP and 10 AC as a level 14 wizard, which would you choose? Which keeps you alive longer? The HP or the AC?

Meat Shield
2008-04-01, 10:20 PM
Gotta go with the AC. If they don't hit, don't have to worry about concentration checks to kill them next round.

Chronos
2008-04-01, 10:20 PM
Definitely the HP. Miss chance is a good substitute for AC, and is a lot easier for a wizard to get. Meanwhile, there are a lot of things that can damage you without requiring an attack roll at all.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 10:21 PM
If you had to choose between 60 HP and 30 AC, or 120 HP and 10 AC as a level 14 wizard, which would you choose? Which keeps you alive longer? The HP or the AC?

120 HP and 10 AC as a level 14 wizard since the PC has access to spellcasting.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-01, 10:21 PM
Depends on the enemy and your spell list. If you plan to spend a lot of time Blinking, Mirror Image'd, and Incorporeal, then more HP is good, because the only things that will affect you probably ignore AC anyways. If you have Greater Mage Armor and Shield, then you probably want higher AC to make use of those. But AC is easier to boost than HP, so I'd rather have high HP and then just figure out what is wrong with my AC and fix it.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 10:25 PM
Definitely the HP. Miss chance is a good substitute for AC, and is a lot easier for a wizard to get. Meanwhile, there are a lot of things that can damage you without requiring an attack roll at all.

Like Fireball?

Nebo_
2008-04-01, 10:25 PM
Probably the HP, but only really because 30 AC isn't all that great for a level 14 wizard.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 10:33 PM
Probably the HP, but only really because 30 AC isn't all that great for a level 14 wizard.

What is decent AC for a wizard? I can get it to 16 using Greater Mage armor. With a round of buffing, Shield becomes 20. Then what?

Nohwl
2008-04-01, 10:37 PM
hp is more important because they are probably going to hit you even if you try to raise up your ac.

holywhippet
2008-04-01, 10:47 PM
HP, a high AC does not neccesarily mean a high touch AC. As such, a lot of things can still get through your defenses and cause damage. More HP means you can shrug more such things off. Couple this with an item or another character that casts the heal spell and you end up with a character that has better survival odds.

Nebo_
2008-04-01, 10:48 PM
What is decent AC for a wizard? I can get it to 16 using Greater Mage armor. With a round of buffing, Shield becomes 20. Then what?


I played a 12th level wizard a while ago with about 35, but I can't remember exactly how I did it.

Let's try:

10 Base
6 Greater Mage Armour
4 Shield
3 Dex
9 Natural (Alter Self - Crucian)
2 Enhancement to Natural Armour (Necklace)
2 Deflection (Ring)
1 Dodge (Haste)

That's 37 without trying too hard. I'm sure WBL would let you get better items. Better Dex would be easy with spells and items and using a cheesier Alter Self form (read: Dwarf Ancestor) adds another 9 to natural armour.


hp is more important because they are probably going to hit you even if you try to raise up your ac.

No offence, but that doesn't sound very thought out. Could you elaborate?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-01, 10:50 PM
Don't forget Scintillating Scales, for turning that NA to a deflection bonus.

sonofzeal
2008-04-01, 10:51 PM
Mrrr.... imo, AC at higher levels is an all-or-nothing thing. There's a relatively narrow range between "get hit all the time" and "nobody can hit you often". For a spellcaster I'd got with the HP and try to avoid hits via flight, blur, etc. For a melee char... 30 AC is getting right up there. If you can get it to 35 at lvl 14, you're probably golden.

AmberVael
2008-04-01, 10:53 PM
From the moderate amount of research I did on AC (for use in the monk debate) I proved that high AC is far too expensive for very little benefit. HP will come in more handy, while even an immensely high AC can be duplicated with a displacement spell for much lower cost, allowing you to spend your money on more useful things.

Iku Rex
2008-04-01, 10:54 PM
HP are more important by far. You can never go wrong with a high Con and even Improved Toughness (CWar) for a wizard. AC is useful as well though.

Basic wizard AC boosters:

Dex
Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor (SpC) (or magic mithral twilight [PHBII, MIC] chain shirt)
Shield (or magic masterwork buckler)
Dragonskin (Drac, SpC)
Ring of Protection
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Robe of the Vagabond (CCha)
Alter self (troglodyte, tren, crucian) or polymorph.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 11:04 PM
Where is Crucian from?

Iku Rex
2008-04-01, 11:07 PM
Crucians are in Miniatures Handbook and Sandstorm.
Tren are in Serpent Kingdoms and on the web.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=4 .

Nebo_
2008-04-01, 11:09 PM
Where is Crucian from?

Fiend Folio.

Edit: Or not. Ignore me.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-01, 11:30 PM
It's a bit of a false dichotomy. A mage can have at least 14 AC at very little cost (10 DEX, Mage Armor). Also, AC isn't all or nothing when the Fire Giant Barbarian is deciding how much of his BaB to sacrifice for Power Attack.

That all said, given the wizard's defensive abilities aside from AC-boosting, and the numerous ways to bypass AC altogether, HP will generally be more important.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 11:38 PM
Does the Fire Giant know exactly how much AC I have? That's the DM metagaming to a huge extent.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-01, 11:44 PM
Does the Fire Giant know exactly how much AC I have? That's the DM metagaming to a huge extent.

He figured it out after a couple of attack rolls (2 misses, but 6 hits? Hmm...) just like players do.

ladditude
2008-04-01, 11:50 PM
If a Fire Giant Barbarian is that smart there are bigger problems to worry about...

AmberVael
2008-04-01, 11:55 PM
If a Fire Giant Barbarian is that smart there are bigger problems to worry about...

I don't think realizing you should smash things harder takes a great deal of intelligence to work out. :smalltongue:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-02, 12:00 AM
If a Fire Giant Barbarian is that smart there are bigger problems to worry about...Holy Unnecessary Nitpick Times Three, Batman! Maybe since the Fire Giant has character levels, he has higher INT than his brethren. Or maybe he just knows about how hard to swing at your standard adventuring wizard, because he's done it so much. Or maybe he's a disguised hyper-intelligent Red Dragon who actually would know how much to PA. Or maybe, just maybe, the example doesn't matter as much as the point that creatures' attack scores are going to run the gamut.

Solo
2008-04-02, 12:53 AM
More HP is good. You can easily make up for the loss in AC.

1. Have the Outsider subtype.

2. Alter Self into either a Ravid (+15 NA, 60 ft fly perfect) or a Dwarven Ancestor (+18 NA).

3. Cast Scintillating Scales to turn your NA bonus into a Deflection bonus.

4. Win.


Seriously, you have an AC of 28 alone. Throw on a +4 from Mage Armor, and +4 from Shield if you really want, and you have an AC of 36, touch AC of 28.

Talic
2008-04-02, 01:00 AM
More HP is good. You can easily make up for the loss in AC.

1. Have the Outsider subtype.

2. Alter Self into either a Ravid (+15 NA, 60 ft fly perfect) or a Dwarven Ancestor (+18 NA).

3. Cast Scintillating Scales to turn your NA bonus into a Deflection bonus.

4. Win.


Seriously, you have an AC of 28 alone. Throw on a +4 from Mage Armor, and +4 from Shield if you really want, and you have an AC of 36, touch AC of 28.

With one addendum. Since mage armor and shield are force effects, they still apply to touch attacks made by incorporeal foes. So, versus Dread Wraiths, it'll still be AC 36.

BardicDuelist
2008-04-02, 01:17 AM
In fact, use Greater Mage Armor, Shield, and Alter Self. AC 38.

And even at higher levels, Polymorph can give you better options.

So, to reply to the OP, AC is highly useful as is HP. The difference: HP is difficult to upwardly modify, while AC is not, so go for the high HP and then figure out a way to boost your AC, as there is very little reason that you should have to choose between the two.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 01:35 AM
Do I have to be an outsider to turn into a Ravid?

And yes, I'm talking about 10 AC before ANY buffs vs 30 AC by using expensive items like bracers of armor

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 01:40 AM
+0 LA Planetouched should do the trick.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 01:44 AM
I'm already a human. Pity. What's the best non-outsider?

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-02, 01:45 AM
+0 LA Planetouched should do the trick.

Lesser planetouched variant is from PGtF, I believe. Just to clarify, the savage progression on the web specifically prohibits you from just taking that +0 LA *level* of the racial class and multiclass away. You must take the +1 LA racial class immediately upon levelling up, you know.

leperkhaun
2008-04-02, 02:32 AM
Id go for the HP. Between, greater invis, blur, displacment, fly, overland flight, stoneskin, FoM....a wizard has good defense.

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-02, 02:45 AM
Wizards have plenty of inherent bonuses and if people are making attack rolls against you frequently when you're a wizard, you're probably doing something wrong.

Nebo_
2008-04-02, 02:56 AM
+0 LA Planetouched should do the trick.

No, it won't. +0 LA Planetouched are humanoids.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 08:18 AM
HP.

No matter how high you jack up your AC, there is ALWAYS a 5% chance to hit you. The goal then is to not be targetted using effective tactics and miss chances.

Displacement + Mirror Image > AC.

Saph
2008-04-02, 08:34 AM
Bear in mind that the attack bonus of the monsters you run into is going to be scaled to match the AC of your party's frontliners.

So if you have an AC of 30, but your party's AC-focused frontliners have an AC of 40, then the monsters are going to have attack bonuses of around +25 to +35. So your 30 AC isn't going to do you much good (although it does stop the monsters from using masses of Power Attack).

Also, the times I've played a non-frontline character, I've noticed that a good half of the hits I take tend to be from area-effect attacks that ignore AC completely. (Fireball, Cone of Cold, breath weapons, etc.)

So I'd say to go for the HP, but try to keep your AC at least minimally good to stop monsters from Power Attacking for full and taking out 75% of your health with one hit.

- Saph

valadil
2008-04-02, 08:35 AM
I agree that miss chances + mirror images + flight + invisibility is better than AC. An enemy with +200 to hit is still going to hit your mirror images periodically. Also keep in mind that even if you go for the HP, you can raise your AC fairly easily with greater mage armor and shield. You can't raise your HP quite so easily as that, so I'd say that HP is the greater resource. Besides, what do you do if they fireball you? AC doesn't help there.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 11:12 AM
But will I have time to always keep Displacement and Greater Mirror Image up? I guess I could Persist them if I took the feat...

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 11:22 AM
If your fights are lasting longer than 8-9 rounds... you're doin' it wrong. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2008-04-02, 11:27 AM
Wizards have plenty of inherent bonuses and if people are making attack rolls against you frequently when you're a wizard, you're probably doing something wrong.

Seconded. Intelligent tactics and miss chance beat both HP and AC for a wizard. Flight, blink, blur, Invis...

However, let's say you have some foe that can get through all that stuff. It's probably either a specifically-built anti-caster something or other, or it's another caster. In either case, you're probably better off having higher HP. If it's a caster, it'll be targeting you with things that don't require attack rolls (like a good little batman). If it's an anti-caster whatever-it-is, it's probably going to home right in on you. Either way, AC isn't going to help you. You'll need to stay alive long enough for the rest of your team to kill the thing. HP would be the dominant strategy.

Jack Zander
2008-04-02, 11:32 AM
Generally low level characters favor high AC over high HP. Being 14th level, you'll definitely want a higher HP instead.

Corsec1337
2008-04-02, 11:37 AM
HP is much more important. It's very rare that you should be based when you are a wizard. If you are, do something about it like going invisible or something.

Saph
2008-04-02, 12:09 PM
But will I have time to always keep Displacement and Greater Mirror Image up?

Unfortunately, no. This is the problem with spells like Displacement and Mirror Image - the more dangerous the fight, the less likely you'll have been given the chance to cast them.

- Saph

Frosty
2008-04-02, 12:18 PM
And what do I do against something that has True Seeing? Mirror Image and Displacement would do nothing. Damned Pit Fiends...

Is Blink any good? I myself will also have a miss chance.

Flawless
2008-04-02, 12:23 PM
Unfortunately, no. This is the problem with spells like Displacement and Mirror Image - the more dangerous the fight, the less likely you'll have been given the chance to cast them.

- Saph

Yeah, but Greater Mirror Image is an immediate action to cast, so you should be able to cast it before you are in real trouble. If you have access to 9th level spells, foresight is your friend, as you now can take immediate actions even when the enemy wins initiative.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 12:24 PM
But will I have time to always keep Displacement and Greater Mirror Image up? I guess I could Persist them if I took the feat...

- This is why long term buffs like mage armour are so good, you cast them in the morning (preferably with a rod of extend) and you're good to go all day. The article on dispelling in 4E says they're doing away with these since they're so key to turning a wizard from a glasscannon into a tank so enjoy them while you can:smallmad:

- The next lot is fast castable stuff from later books like greater mirror image in the PHB2, an immediate action is a lot less of a stretch in a fight than devoting a whole round to your defenses and it's a kick ass protective spell anyway.

- Last make sure not to overlook items that can make these sorts of things constant for you, like rings of Blinking and Invis. Since you're a wizard you dont need a pricey weapon and the mage armour line does the same job as the next biggist cash sink for other characters. You should have some cash left over from writing your spellbook and grabbing the basics of stat boost and mundane miscilaneous gumph, invest it in things that make it less likely that 1) you're attacked int he first place and 2) that if they do attack you they miss/hit an image/pass through you/Whatever...

Solo
2008-04-02, 12:34 PM
No, it won't. +0 LA Planetouched are humanoids.

I had the Otherwordly feat in mind, which gives you the Outsider subtype.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 12:39 PM
I don't have level 9 spells yet. Not high enough level.

As for gold, I've got 20,000 left after boosting my con into the stratosphere for the HP. What can I get for 20k? I've already filled both of my ring slots.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 01:03 PM
Frosty, is this your Incantarix? Just take Persis spell and Persist all these things.

Also, Blink is lose, Greater Blink is awesome. No miss chance, no failure chance when walking through walls, target ethereal creatures with 100% accuracy, still have a miss chance against true seeing creatures. Best buff under level 7 in the game, and first on my list of things to persist.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 01:13 PM
Bah...not enough feats! I need to get rid of some of the other feats to get Persist. I have lots of other metamagic since I'm Orbing it up. And I needed crap like Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus and GSF (Adjuration). Stupid useless requirements for Iot7v.

If the game is set to go Epic, it's actually worth it to take Eschew Materials right? That way in the future you can take a feat to ignore ALL material components? Maybe I'll throw out Eschew Materials for now and take Persist Spell.

Solo
2008-04-02, 01:17 PM
Bah...not enough feats! I need to get rid of some of the other feats to get Persist. I have lots of other metamagic since I'm Orbing it up. And I needed crap like Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus and GSF (Adjuration). Stupid useless requirements for Iot7v

Master Specialist gives you Skill focus for free, doesn't it?

Frosty
2008-04-02, 01:20 PM
Probably, but I'm not taking that class. I didn't want to delay Incantatrix levels.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 01:27 PM
You can take Master Specialist at character level 4. It grants you Skill Focus (Spellcraft) And Greater Spell Focus in your specialist school by character level 7.

Craig1f
2008-04-02, 01:27 PM
It also depends greatly on the skill of the DM. A good DM will use Power Attack with his monsters. A bad DM won't bother.

Assuming you have a good DM, you might want to pump HP, and then put some effort into giving the APPEARANCE of a high AC. If your character glows a lot, has really fancy bracers, some illusion that he's wearing full-plate, etc, monsters might be tempted to not power attack.

However, if I see a frail looking wizard, I'm assuming "low AC" and dropping at least a level 5 power attack on him.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 01:29 PM
Wait your doing both IotSFV and Incantatrix? Why?

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 3/ X 2

Archmage to grab Arcane Reach and Spell Power for High Arcana, what you fill the last one with depends on your build.

As for being low on feats, go Elf and use Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to pick up 4 additional ones. You might also want to switch out Scribe Scroll.

Are you picking up the Spontaneous Divination sub level?

Frosty
2008-04-02, 01:48 PM
Wait your doing both IotSFV and Incantatrix? Why?

Is that bad? I want both offensive and defensive powas.



Archmage to grab Arcane Reach and Spell Power for High Arcana, what you fill the last one with depends on your build.

I'm not sure I'll need Arcane Reach to be honest. It's nice definitely, but I'll be taking Archmage for the ability to spontaneously substitute my Orb of <whatever> into Sonic!!



Are you picking up the Spontaneous Divination sub level?

Yes. that is the reason I took 5 levels of Wizard and then straight into Incantator.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 02:00 PM
Is that bad? I want both offensive and defensive powas.

Incantatrix is both offensive and defensive, once you get hold of the capstone then ALL buffs worth having are always active... that's even more uberness then the veils since it doesn't even need a free action to pulloff in combat. Really either one pushes a full caster through the playable barrier and into theoretical discussion since they both break the game engine. Taking both just seems excessive to me, but meh.

Oh and why not just mem orb of sonic instead? Virtually nothings immune/resistant to it until epic anyway (yes, yes, slaad being exceptions).

tyckspoon
2008-04-02, 02:03 PM
It's mostly bad for the pressure it puts on your levels and feats for meeting prereqs (assuming you aren't allowed to Chaos Shuffle stuff.) You don't have enough levels to hit the capstones of both Incantatrix and Initiate of Wall of Skittles, especially if you also want to squeeze in levels of Archmage. That's not to say it's useless, but you won't be getting the best stuff from at least one of the classes and you might be better off putting those levels in another PrC that is more heavily front-loaded.



Oh and why not just mem orb of sonic instead?

Lower base damage die, which gets very significant if you're going to be using heavy metamagic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 02:10 PM
Is that bad? I want both offensive and defensive powas.
Yeah but you can't get the capstone in IotSFV pre level 20 if you max Incantatrix and IotSF doesn't have an Epic Progression. And with persistent buffs you won't die as an Incantatrix anyways (since your playing an Incantatrix I'm assuming most cheese is already allowed).


I'm not sure I'll need Arcane Reach to be honest. It's nice definitely, but I'll be taking Archmage for the ability to spontaneously substitute my Orb of <whatever> into Sonic!!
You want it if your party has another Incantatrix so you can Chain+Persist Touch Range buffs for the whole party.

But if you can spare the feat you really want Energy Substitution instead of Mastery of the Elements. Energy Sub is +0 meta so it gives you a negative with Arcane Thesis.


Yes. that is the reason I took 5 levels of Wizard and then straight into Incantator.
Then Master Specialist is out. I recommend you go Grey Elf and take the Elf generalist Sub level


Heres an Incantatrix built to do the same thing (level 18 and with some miscellaneous things but its preety good).

http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890

Rutee
2008-04-02, 02:23 PM
But if you can spare the feat you really want Energy Substitution instead of Mastery of the Elements. Energy Sub is +0 meta so it gives you a negative with Arcane Thesis.
Doesn't Arcane Thesis explicitly state either in its own description or in its errata that you CAN NOT by any means reduce a spell's level in any way?

Edit: Why do I ask questions I can answer?

PHB2 Errata:
Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”

Chronos
2008-04-02, 02:28 PM
You can't reduce the total level of the spell below its original level. But as the rules (and errata) are written now, you are allowed to get a negative adjustment from a metamagic, which balances out positive adjustments from others. I.e., an Arcane Thesis Energy Substitution Fireball is level 3, because it can't be lower than that, but an Arcane Thesis Energy Substitution Empowered Fireball is also level 3, and an Arcane Thesis Energy Substitution Maximized Fireball is level 4.

Rutee
2008-04-02, 02:31 PM
Ah, then I misread his intentions with the spell.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 02:32 PM
Doesn't Arcane Thesis explicitly state either in its own description or in its errata that you CAN NOT by any means reduce a spell's level in any way?

Edit: Why do I ask questions I can answer?

PHB2 Errata:
Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”

The key part is a spell. You can use the -1 to reduce some other metamagic. So Say you have Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Easy Meta: Energy Admixture and were an Incantatrix with Improved Metamagic. And Arcane Thesis: Fireball.

Base Level: 3
Energy Substitution: Only Arcane Thesis applies because Improved Meta can't reduce below 1 giving -1 adjustment
Energy Admixture: Normally +4, Improved Meta makes it +3, Easy Meta makes it +2 and Arcane Thesis makes it +1.

So the final spell level is 3-1+1 for a total spell level of 3.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 02:39 PM
Yeah but you can't get the capstone in IotSFV pre level 20 if you max Incantatrix and IotSF doesn't have an Epic Progression. And with persistent buffs you won't die as an Incantatrix anyways (since your playing an Incantatrix I'm assuming most cheese is already allowed).

We will be going epic for sure. I figure after I take all Iot7V levels around level 23 or so, I'll go back to Wizard and finish that out, getting the Wizard bonus metamagic feats. Or can I not do that?



But if you can spare the feat you really want Energy Substitution instead of Mastery of the Elements. Energy Sub is +0 meta so it gives you a negative with Arcane Thesis.

We don't play with that kinda ruling. Arcane Thesis does not reduce any single metamagic adjustment below 0. Or simply, it doesn't work with a +0 adjustment metamagic feat.

And the important thing is, I want to be able to *spontaneously* decide what energy type to throw. I fully expect many epic enemies to have immunity to my element even if I pick Acid or Sonic, so I want to be able to spontaneously switch it up. That's where the levels of Archmage come in.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 02:54 PM
We will be going epic for sure. I figure after I take all Iot7V levels around level 23 or so, I'll go back to Wizard and finish that out, getting the Wizard bonus metamagic feats. Or can I not do that?
Have you looked at the epic Incantatrix progression? More bonsu feats than wizard, your better off just continuing with it post level 20.


We don't play with that kinda ruling. Arcane Thesis does not reduce any single metamagic adjustment below 0. Or simply, it doesn't work with a +0 adjustment metamagic feat.
That sucks. What level are you starting at?


And the important thing is, I want to be able to *spontaneously* decide what energy type to throw. I fully expect many epic enemies to have immunity to my element even if I pick Acid or Sonic, so I want to be able to spontaneously switch it up. That's where the levels of Archmage come in.
Energy Sub, Energy Admixture, and Piercing Cold an Orb of Fire. But since you are house ruling Arcane Thesis you may as well just take Mastery of Elements.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 03:09 PM
I know next to nothing about epic levels to be honest, and I don't even know where to look up epic progressions. Is the Incantator one in the Epic Player Handbook? Is it legal for me to continue taking Iot7v levels after level 20 if I haven't maxed out Iot7v?

We are starting at level 14.

and you're right. Under RAW, we'd be houseruling Arcane Thesis, but to be honest, I don't want a DM that allows the RAW ruling in this case because i'd be deathly afraid of what enemy spellcasters can do to the party. Hey look, every PC just got hit with 12 negative levels!

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 03:40 PM
Under RAW, we'd be houseruling Arcane Thesis, but to be honest, I don't want a DM that allows the RAW ruling in this case because i'd be deathly afraid of what enemy spellcasters can do to the party. Hey look, every PC just got hit with 12 negative levels!

1) That's what Reached Chained Persistent Deathward is for.

2) Or you could use a Ring of Spellbattle.

3) Or you could kill him first.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-02, 03:55 PM
Warning: I've not read all the posts, so I may be a little redundant

I would go for the HP over AC. I recently made a 17th level Wizard to join a campaign. I put virtually no money in any AC boosting items and consequentially had a terrible AC of 12. At first the other PCs (who all have an AC around 32) gawked at this move, but after we discussed the numbers a bit, we came to the conclusion that I had probably made the right move. At our level, 90% of attacks enemies throw at us hit. There's virtually no way to avoid it through AC. Heck, even the weakest of the enemies we've fought had at least +20 attack bonus. Only the PC with the highest AC (42 when using her shield) is ever missed, and that's less than 50% of the time.

So, What's a wizard to do?

Celerity. This spell paired with virtually any mobility spell will save your neck. It is win.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 04:02 PM
I know next to nothing about epic levels to be honest, and I don't even know where to look up epic progressions. Is the Incantator one in the Epic Player Handbook?In whatever book Incantatrix is in 9Players guide to FR IIRC)

Is it legal for me to continue taking Iot7v levels after level 20 if I haven't maxed out Iot7v?
Yes. You are allowed a max of 7 IotSFV levels, which you can take whenever.


We are starting at level 14.
Phuey. Wait a few levels and then the fun begins.


and you're right. Under RAW, we'd be houseruling Arcane Thesis, but to be honest, I don't want a DM that allows the RAW ruling in this case because i'd be deathly afraid of what enemy spellcasters can do to the party. Hey look, every PC just got hit with 12 negative levels!
12? Try 22.

Scroll down to the notes: http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=7809

Frosty
2008-04-02, 04:18 PM
So, What's a wizard to do?

Celerity. This spell paired with virtually any mobility spell will save your neck. It is win.

Mobility spell?


Yes. You are allowed a max of 7 IotSFV levels, which you can take whenever.


But the question is I guess: Is it worth taking Iot7v (and waste all those feats. Well, a lot overlaps with Archmage I guess) when my other options include taking more levels in Archmage, or taking some other PRC. So far I will definitely plan to do: Wizzy5/Incantator10/Archmage1. After that I dunno what I should do. I was planning on doing Iot7v for defensive purposes, but if Celerity will save my butt...

And I hate being dazed. Too bad there's no way to become immune. We're not using Eberron so no dragonmarks.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 04:37 PM
Let's put it this way. Once you hit level 17 nothing short of an epic monster will ever be able to kill you if you play your incantatrix right. Persistent Shapechange + Persistent Superior Invisibility takes care of that. Add in a few other buffs and it gets even better.

So what does IotSFV do for you, you already are nigh unkillable. How much Archmage you take is up to you, I recommend at least 3 levels. If not 4.

How are you guys working epic magic and wish/gate abuse? Can you gate in a solar, have him use his 3 permanencies to make stuff permanent and then have him wish you up a scroll of gate? Is Mindrape allowed?

Oh once you get Shapechange take a look at Slaymate in Libris Mortis. Share the Shapechange with your familiar and have it shapechange into a Slaymate then prepare your spells. I can't remember if it only works on necromancy spells or on all spells.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 04:43 PM
I've banned necromancy and I also don't have a familiar. Should I not trade away my familiar for Abrupt Jaunt 8/day?

I have no idea how we'll handle epic magic. I need to learn how the whole epic system works. The DM warns us that if we abuse things he will abuse things back at us. Using Gate in a cheesy way is a sure fire way of getting ourselves killed. I have no idea what Mindrape is. Also, I'm not evil.

What does Slaymate do?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:05 PM
I've banned necromancy and I also don't have a familiar. Should I not trade away my familiar for Abrupt Jaunt 8/day?
I would have banned evocation instead. As for the familiar, it depends. Shapechange makes it useful "Why yes it is an adult red dragon, or a Shadesteel Golem" and a spell in complete mage (dimensional jumper IIRC) is like Abrupt Jaunt except better and with persist it lasts all day.


I have no idea how we'll handle epic magic. I need to learn how the whole epic system works.
Ask the DM what changes he is making before you bother to learn it. Because if he isn't making any then at level 21 you overthrow all the gods and rule the multiverse.


The DM warns us that if we abuse things he will abuse things back at us. Using Gate in a cheesy way is a sure fire way of getting ourselves killed.
Thats only minor gate cheese, really just enough to make up for the outrageous cost of permanent telepathic bonds for the whole party.


I have no idea what Mindrape is. Also, I'm not evil.
Its the single most powerful spell in the game. Think Programmed Amensia only its Instantaneous duration, standard action casting time, and has some other options.


What does Slaymate do?
Has an aura of -1 to any metamagic applied to spells prepared in the area. It might be just necro spells though, can't remember.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:15 PM
I would have banned evocation instead. As for the familiar, it depends. Shapechange makes it useful "Why yes it is an adult red dragon, or a Shadesteel Golem" and a spell in complete mage (dimensional jumper IIRC) is like Abrupt Jaunt except better and with persist it lasts all day.
I *did* ban evocation. And Enchantment. And Necromancy. It was either that or ban Transmutation, which I'm not about to do. 3.5 Incantatrix you can't ban Abjuration,a nd forces you to ban an extra school. You can't ban Divination period. What else can I ban?



Ask the DM what changes he is making before you bother to learn it. Because if he isn't making any then at level 21 you overthrow all the gods and rule the multiverse. Due to plot, gods aren't around in our campaign.



Its the single most powerful spell in the game. Think Programmed Amensia only its Instantaneous duration, standard action casting time, and has some other options.
Where can I find Mindrape anyways?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:26 PM
If you're feeling the burn in banned schools you can reprieve a school with three feats from the lost empires of faerun book, if you end up not taking Iot7vs you should have room.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:28 PM
I *did* ban evocation. And Enchantment. And Necromancy. It was either that or ban Transmutation, which I'm not about to do. 3.5 Incantatrix you can't ban Abjuration,a nd forces you to ban an extra school. You can't ban Divination period. What else can I ban?
Why are you banning so much?

Go Grey Elf, take the Elf Generalist sub level at first level. Ban Evocation when you enter Incantatrix.


Due to plot, gods aren't around in our campaign.
Fine. You can create stars at will.


Where can I find Mindrape anyways?
Book of Vile Darkness

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:30 PM
Because plot-wise, I am human. And I wanted to specialize to get more spell slots. Ergo, I need to ban 3 schools unless I want to specialize in Divination, which I really don't want to do because I already have Spontaneous Divination from any spell list.

What school is Mindrape?

Solo
2008-04-02, 05:35 PM
Because plot-wise, I am human. And I wanted to specialize to get more spell slots. Ergo, I need to ban 3 schools unless I want to specialize in Divination, which I really don't want to do because I already have Spontaneous Divination from any spell list.

What school is Mindrape?

Sounds like Enchantment [Evil]

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:35 PM
Because plot-wise, I am human. And I wanted to specialize to get more spell slots. Ergo, I need to ban 3 schools unless I want to specialize in Divination, which I really don't want to do because I already have Spontaneous Divination from any spell list.

Hmm, if you can see if you can convince your DM that your a Grey Elf who got whacked with a PaO and is now permanently a human. :smallbiggrin:

I really don't like banning 3 schools. Spell slots are nice but not nice enough for me to give up the diversity.


What school is Mindrape?
Necromancy.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:38 PM
Maybe I'll go change specialization to Divination. Meh. Plenty of good divination spells I can use every day. then I'll only ban Enchant and Evoc.

Kinda sucks not having Contingency, but...

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:40 PM
Maybe I'll go change specialization to Divination. Meh. Plenty of good divination spells I can use every day. then I'll only ban Enchant and Evoc.

Kinda sucks not having Contingency, but...

You can get it back with Illusion or the Reprieve Spell feat or the Craft Contingent Spell feat

Frosty
2008-04-02, 06:20 PM
Spending a level 8 slot on a contingency? hmm...

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 06:58 PM
Spending a level 8 slot on a contingency? hmm...

or a feat slot. Now that you've grabbed Incantatrix with both hands you've got room. Besides it is a damn good spell.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 07:00 PM
Where the feat from? I'm actually really tight on feats.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 07:04 PM
Where the feat from? I'm actually really tight on feats.

Reprieve spell is from lost empires of faerun for just Contingency, Craft Contingent Spell is from Complete Arcane, that works a little differently from just the flat spell. Instead you imbue yourself with a triggered single use magic item (unslotted) of whatever level that can be triggered the same way as contingency. That means you can add in more than just self buffs and teleports, anything's up for grabs but (and this is a fairly big but) it takes time, money and xp to set it up or refresh it after its been used.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:05 PM
Where the feat from? I'm actually really tight on feats.

Why you should go Grey Elf and turn your racial bonus feats into helpful feats.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 07:07 PM
Why you should go Grey Elf and turn your racial bonus feats into helpful feats.

Not gonna happen. DM doesn't have the books. Also, plot-wise it wouldn't work at all.

I took human for the extra feat.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:09 PM
You allowed flaws?

But yeah, feats are the 1 thing Incantatrix's always need more of.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 07:11 PM
Yeah. 3 Flaws. Still kinda short on feats. If I change my specialization from Conjuration to Divination I need to spend a feat on Spell Focus (conjuration) so I can get Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). Me like metamagic reducers!

Draz74
2008-04-02, 07:14 PM
Note to Tippy: Banning Necromancy isn't so bad when you take all the best Necromancy spells (up to Level 4) before you enter Incantrix.

Frosty: Wizard/Incantrix/IotSFV doesn't sound at all bad if you're going Epic. I don't think you should have any major problems even if you can't use all the cheese Tippy is recommending!

Frosty
2008-04-02, 07:18 PM
I'm not waiting until level 8 to enter Incantatrix, but since I guess I'll specialize in Divination instead so I can get necromancy, I'll even get a cool familiar! Now all I need is to look up this "Dimension Jumper" spell.

Anyone know where the Hummingbiord familiar is found? I've got +7 init right now and I want it to go higher.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:19 PM
Yeah. 3 Flaws. Still kinda short on feats. If I change my specialization from Conjuration to Divination I need to spend a feat on Spell Focus (conjuration) so I can get Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). Me like metamagic reducers!

Your using Orb's for damage right? List out what meta your going to apply to them and what the level adjustment is (pre Arcane Thesis and other meta reducers). Then we can figure out what meta reducers you need.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:24 PM
Hummingbird is in one of the Dragon magazines.

Can't remember the Familiar that provides a spellcraft bonus.

Chronos
2008-04-02, 07:36 PM
If your DM takes a proactive stance against abuse, and you expect to go epic, you really need to find out what his stance is on epic spells. The epic spell system, as it stands, is either abuse, or so useless that it might as well not exist, with no real middle ground.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 07:56 PM
Your using Orb's for damage right? List out what meta your going to apply to them and what the level adjustment is (pre Arcane Thesis and other meta reducers). Then we can figure out what meta reducers you need.

Well, with Metamagic School Focus and, at level 15, Improved metamagic, I'll get -2 to every metamagic I apply for up to 3 of my orb spells. So far I'm thinking of Maximize, empower, Chain, and Twin.

Oh yeah, since I need spell focus on two schools to go into archmage, which school besides Conjuration should I do spell focus? Necromancy or Transmutation?

Chronos
2008-04-02, 08:02 PM
Personally, I'd recommend Transmutation. Most of the best necromancy spells don't allow saves, and those that do are usually fairly easy to defend against (Death Ward, for instance). But there's very little in the way of absolute defense versus Disintegrate or Polymorph Any Object.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 08:12 PM
Well, with Metamagic School Focus and, at level 15, Improved metamagic, I'll get -2 to every metamagic I apply for up to 3 of my orb spells. So far I'm thinking of Maximize, empower, Chain, and Twin.

Oh yeah, since I need spell focus on two schools to go into archmage, which school besides Conjuration should I do spell focus? Necromancy or Transmutation?

Arcane Thesis and Improved Meta mean -2.

That means empower is free, maximize is +1, Chain is +1, and twin is +2. So your Orb would take an 8th level slot.

Instead of Metamagic School Focus I would take Easy Meta: Chain. It has the same net effect as MSF but doesn't have the 3/day limit and it reduces chains cost all the time, so if you go and chain a spell from a different school its only +1.

Cuddly
2008-04-02, 08:51 PM
Get the outsider type, then retrain/Chaos Shuffle your 30-100+ martial weapon proficiencies.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 09:02 PM
Arcane Thesis and Improved Meta mean -2.

That means empower is free, maximize is +1, Chain is +1, and twin is +2. So your Orb would take an 8th level slot.

Instead of Metamagic School Focus I would take Easy Meta: Chain. It has the same net effect as MSF but doesn't have the 3/day limit and it reduces chains cost all the time, so if you go and chain a spell from a different school its only +1.

I don't think the DM allows Easy Metamagic. We don't have the bookf or it. Isn't it from a Dragon Magazine?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 09:29 PM
yeah, dragon #325

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 09:31 PM
yeah, dragon #325

Frosty
2008-04-02, 10:18 PM
Hmm, if I do take it, should I do Easy for Chain or Twin?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 11:18 PM
Chain. What, besides your Orb, do you plan on Twining? Chain allwos all party buffing, twin not so much.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 12:59 AM
I also plan on twinning an Enervation if I rebuild to accomodate both styles.

Let's see...I can Empower, Split Ray, Twin Spell, AND Chain.

That's 4d4*1.5 to multiple enemies...

Does negative levels lower max Hitpoints?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-03, 01:04 AM
I also plan on twinning an Enervation if I rebuild to accomodate both styles.

Let's see...I can Empower, Split Ray, Twin Spell, AND Chain.

That's 4d4*1.5 to multiple enemies...

Does negative levels lower max Hitpoints?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

* yada
* yada
* -5 hit points.
* yada...I'd say so. Of course, the max HP would come back if you gave it time to wear off, but too many negative levels is a killer.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 01:30 AM
I also plan on twinning an Enervation if I rebuild to accomodate both styles.

Let's see...I can Empower, Split Ray, Twin Spell, AND Chain.

That's 4d4*1.5 to multiple enemies...

Does negative levels lower max Hitpoints?

You do realize that that means you need to pick up Arcane Thesis again. And you may as well have your familiar shapechange into a Slaymate and maximize it as well (it tacks on another -1).

Frosty
2008-04-03, 01:40 AM
I do have arcane thesis. I got rid of all of my spell focuses. Replaced them with Easy metamagic. Had enoughr oom left over for an Eschew Materials.

Is Ignore Material Component a good epic feat to take when I get there? Are there a lot of spells with expensive material components? I figure it's at least good for when I've bene captured and don't have my spell component pouch.

I need to ask around on how to protect my Baccob's Blessed spellbook.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 02:07 AM
I do have arcane thesis. I got rid of all of my spell focuses. Replaced them with Easy metamagic. Had enoughr oom left over for an Eschew Materials.
IIRC you need Spell Focus in a few schools for your PrC's.


Is Ignore Material Component a good epic feat to take when I get there? Are there a lot of spells with expensive material components? I figure it's at least good for when I've bene captured and don't have my spell component pouch.
It can be good. I mean its not a bad epic feat but look at what else you could take. First up you take Epic Spellcasting if you are playing with the epic spellcasting system as currently written.

Multispell, AutoQuicken, AutoStill, AutoSilent, Greater Intelligence, Permanent Emanation. All are better in most cases.

Order of Precedance generally goes: Epic Casting, Multispell, AutoQuicken, AutoQuicken, AutoQuicken, Fill with whatever, more Multispell is nice.


I need to ask around on how to protect my Baccob's Blessed spellbook.

Look is Complete Adventurer for the possum pouch (the names something like that). Check Complete Arcane for all the defenses you can add on it. And Make a few extra copies which are hidden in safe places. Although it really shouldn't be stolen, you are hanging out on your personal demiplane which no one can enter without your permission and astral projecting, correct?

Frosty
2008-04-03, 02:25 AM
I don't know where the spell is to create my own demiplane is, and I don't think it'd work in this campaign. I also can't astral project due to being level 14.

As for PRCs, I don't need them for a few filler PRC levels before I go Epic Incantator anyways.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 02:35 AM
I don't know where the spell is to create my own demiplane is, and I don't think it'd work in this campaign.
Epic Level Handbook. Arcane Genesis, 9th level spell.


I also can't astral project due to being level 14.
I was referring to later.


As for PRCs, I don't need them for a few filler PRC levels before I go Epic Incantator anyways.
Archmage requires Spell Focus in 2 schools of magic.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 09:41 AM
I decided against Archmage for now. Metamagic rod of Substitution will work just as well. I mean, just how many Orbs will I prepare per day anyways?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-03, 09:55 AM
You don't wanna know. Also, Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm).

Personally, I'd go ahead an eschew orbs. Maw of Chaos is much more pwnzorzizing, though of level 9.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 10:33 AM
If I get to create a level 17 Incantatrix, I'll be sure to try a Maw of Chaos build. But for now, I'll enjoy Orbs.

Chronos
2008-04-03, 12:26 PM
Although it really shouldn't be stolen, you are hanging out on your personal demiplane which no one can enter without your permission and astral projecting, correct?Astral Projection specifically says that your body is left behind on the material plane. And when you're on your Genesis plane, you're extraplanar, which means that some unscrupulous wizard could Gate you in and Mindrape you.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 01:10 PM
How is an unscrupulous Wizard Gating to your Genesis Plane? You set the Planar Traits when you create it. One of those traits is what the requirements are for entering. If you only want LG people to be able to enter, that's fine. If you want only you to be able to enter, that's fine, too. You can probably (me being AFB at the moment, I'm not sure) make one of those traits "This Genesis Plane qualifies as the material plane for purposes of any castings of Astral Projection by me". Genesis is just a wee bit broken.

Edit: Oh, Gate you in. Again, there's probably a way to word the planar traits to avoid that.