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CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 11:29 PM
Seen a lot of posts lately regarding the Astral Projection spell wizard escape death free card in game which tend to overlook things that can sever the astral cord.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

Forget other spell buffs, contingencies and magic items for the purposes of this thread they have all been defeated or negated to pose this simple question what happens to an Astrally Projected wizard who is caught in an Anti Magic Field?

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.


IMO the Anti Magic Field would sever the Astral Cord and kill the wizard because the wizard's soul is separated from his body on another plane via a necromancy spell which would normally return his soul to his body "Astral Projection" is suppressed.

It's worth noting the wizard isn't a summoned creature or undead.

Thanks.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 12:06 AM
IMO the Anti Magic Field would sever the Astral Cord and kill the wizard because the wizard's soul is separated from his body on another plane via a necromancy spell which would normally return his soul to his body "Astral Projection" is suppressed.

It's worth noting the wizard isn't a summoned creature or undead.

Luckily opinions bereft of any basis in the rules don't matter to anyone not currently holding them.

AMF suppresses spells, it doesn't dispel them. The cord sure as hell isn't cut, there is no way for an AMF to cut anything. The cord may cease to exist, and that's fine, the Wizard himself ceases to exist until the AMF disappears, and then the Suppressed spell reactivates and the AP manifestation is right where it was before.

Or even more logically and by the rules, the AP spell is suppressed, which means in D&D terms is treated as if it hadn't been cast. Which means the AP manifestation disappears and the Wizard is awake where ever he was earlier.

It seems pretty clear to me that you only want it to "cut the cord" because you, like so many other people, just want to find some way around AP. But wanting does not make it so.

Chronos
2008-04-02, 12:40 AM
Or even more logically and by the rules, the AP spell is suppressed, which means in D&D terms is treated as if it hadn't been cast. Which means the AP manifestation disappears and the Wizard is awake where ever he was earlier.But an Antimagic Field doesn't end spells; they resume once they leave the field. So I think what would happen is that the wizard would snap back into his body, but then, since he's now out of the field, instantly pop back into the spot on the Astral Plane congruent to his body's location. Which would certainly be interesting, but probably not particularly dangerous to the wizard.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 01:05 AM
AMF suppresses spells, it doesn't dispel them. The cord sure as hell isn't cut, there is no way for an AMF to cut anything. The cord may cease to exist, and that's fine, the Wizard himself ceases to exist until the AMF disappears, and then the Suppressed spell reactivates and the AP manifestation is right where it was before.

Or even more logically and by the rules, the AP spell is suppressed, which means in D&D terms is treated as if it hadn't been cast. Which means the AP manifestation disappears and the Wizard is awake where ever he was earlier.

It seems pretty clear to me that you only want it to "cut the cord" because you, like so many other people, just want to find some way around AP. But wanting does not make it so.



Thanks for responding but your points have not convinced me I am incorrect.

Why isn't the cord cut since it is no longer as long as it was originally connected to the wizard's spirit?

Lets say the Astral Cord is one plane + 100' long before it ends tied to the wizard and his spirit.

AMF has a 10' radius normally so say the last 5' of the planar + 100' long astral cord ending at the wizard's spirit/new physical body.

The astral cord is no longer planar + 100' long it has been "cut" by the AMF things shouldn't be fine. The AP spell inside the AMF has been terminated by the AMF suppressing the wizard's new physical body. Suddenly the AP is no longer connected between the wizard and his spirit.

Normally the AP spell would return the wizard spirit to his body if he died or the spell was dispelled but AP is suppressed by AMF so there is no magic to return his soul back to his body.

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord.

The AP spell was cast. The wizard's soul is separated from his body on another plane. Logically for a certain period of time the wizard's soul is separated from the astral cord and his body with a AMF causing a break in the cord. Why wouldn't the wizard die since his astral cord has been severed?

Regarding the lasts no. I like spell casters and high level ones can basically rule in game with spell tactics but AP clearly specifies things can break the cord in game. The game has rules and mechanics. I am simply identifying one of the weak points I believe is overlooked regarding the AP spell in game.

AMF appears to be one of the those things that can break and cut an AP cord since the AP spell does not function normally when interacting with a AMF.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 01:10 AM
Why wouldn't the wizard die since his astral cord has been cut?

Because it hasn't been cut. AMF doesn't cut the cord, it suppresses a spell, suppressing the spell in no way even implies, much less states that the Cord is cut or broken in any way.

BardicDuelist
2008-04-02, 01:12 AM
Quite simply, OP, your logic is flawed in that that is not how Anti-Magic Field works. Of course, if you are the DM, it is your perogative to change the flavor or rules and simply say that this works the way you state, but if you do this TELL YOUR PLAYERS before they even try AP. Don't spring this on them and say "well, you're dead." That should apply to all houserules actually.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 01:20 AM
But an Antimagic Field doesn't end spells; they resume once they leave the field.

So I think what would happen is that the wizard would snap back into his body, but then, since he's now out of the field, instantly pop back into the spot on the Astral Plane congruent to his body's location. Which would certainly be interesting, but probably not particularly dangerous to the wizard.



I agree Dispel Magic or the equivalent would return the wizard's spirit normally but AMF (very limited radius) suppresses a part of the AP spell creating a break between the wizard's spirit in his AP body and his normal body on another plane by magically severing the connection.

Why does the soul which isn't in it's normal body, AP body or connected to it's normal body at this point in time suppressed by the AMF head off to a similarly aligned plane instead of hanging around waiting to be reconnected to the AP spell? Why doesn't the wizard die at this point? His spirit is no longer attached to his normal body or housed (contained) in the AP spell.

AMF doesn't suppress the wizard's spirit or soul just the AP spell tethering and housing his spirit in his AP physical body to his normal body.

For a certain period of time the wizard's spirit is not connected to his AP body or tethered to his normal body on another plane due to interaction with the AMF. Why doesn't that constitute cutting or severing the astral cord?



Because it hasn't been cut. AMF doesn't cut the cord, it suppresses a spell, suppressing the spell in no way even implies, much less states that the Cord is cut or broken in any way.

The wizard's "spirit" is not connected to his real body, his AP body or the Astral Cord for a certain period of time. How is that not cut, severed or broken?



Quite simply, OP, your logic is flawed in that that is not how Anti-Magic Field works.

I agree the rules need to be applied consistently in game. I don't see why this would be considered a house rule.

Where is my logic flawed regarding the interaction between a AP wizard suddenly engulfed by an AMF?

leperkhaun
2008-04-02, 02:33 AM
go into the RAW thread and ask the beholder

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 02:35 AM
Good point. Thanks.

Funkyodor
2008-04-02, 06:30 AM
Incorporeal undead wink out and re-appear once the AMF goes away. I think that the invisible & incorporal cord would do the same. On that note, the only defenses the cord gets are invisibility and incorporality. So, an individual with See Invisibility armed with a Ghost Touch weapon can be a 20th lvl Wizard killer. *Snip*

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 07:08 AM
Incorporeal undead wink out and re-appear once the AMF goes away. I think that the invisible & incorporal cord would do the same. On that note, the only defenses the cord gets are invisibility and incorporality. So, an individual with See Invisibility armed with a Ghost Touch weapon can be a 20th lvl Wizard killer. *Snip*

And the part where it says most things cannot cut the Cord. Only something that specifically says it can cut the Cord can, so your Ghost Touch weapon doesn't actually do anything.


The wizard's "spirit" is not connected to his real body, his AP body or the Astral Cord for a certain period of time. How is that not cut, severed or broken?

This is precisely my point, if someone casts dispel magic then the spirit is not connected to the real body or the AP. If the spell is suppressed, it is treated as if the spell doesn't exist, which means that the spirit would return to the real body. It is only your assumption that the spirit is somehow negated by the AMF in addition to the spell. And that assumption is based off of nothing at all.

The spell is suppressed. What happens when the AP spell is not active? The Wizard lives in his regular body.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 08:21 AM
This is precisely my point, if someone casts dispel magic then the spirit is not connected to the real body or the AP.

If the spell is suppressed, it is treated as if the spell doesn't exist, which means that the spirit would return to the real body.

It is only your assumption that the spirit is somehow negated by the AMF in addition to the spell. And that assumption is based off of nothing at all.

The spell is suppressed. What happens when the AP spell is not active? The Wizard lives in his regular body.

I am placing a slightly different emphasis on the text of the spells and their interaction. I understand why others would place a different emphasis on the text of the spells and their interaction.

I view the astral body as a magical container or shell created by the AP spell to hold the wizard's spirit:

By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.

your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord.

The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

Things to consider:

Dispel Magic on the physical body or the astral form not the cord can terminate the spell.

AMF has a very limited range in comparison to the AP necromancy not summoning spell.

According to AMF should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

A break in the astral cord between the astral body and the wizard's body kills the wizard.

AMF only suppresses not dispels a part of the AP spell but it also prevents it from functioning normally like a standard dispel so the AP form isn't returned like normal with a successful dispel magic.

Logically an AMF constitutes a magical break in the astral cord between his body and his AP astral body since the two are not connected by the astral cord while inside a AMF.

Funkyodor
2008-04-02, 08:49 AM
And the part where it says most things cannot cut the Cord. Only something that specifically says it can cut the Cord can, so your Ghost Touch weapon doesn't actually do anything.

So, is there any item in any supplement that specifically says that it can be used to cut a silver cord? And if so, does it also state that it is the only item that can be used? There is a big difference between "very few things can destroy a silver cord" and "only something specifically designed to cut silver cords can do so". Because +1 and Ghost Touch gets around incorporal, and See Invisible gets around invisibility, and high enough damage bonus gets around silvers damage resistance. Better yet, Ghost Touch gauntlets and Break DC it, maybe even Sunder it, heh, heh.

The cord goes where the body goes, if the body is destroied then the cord goes back to the original. The AMF supresses the duplicate for as long as the AMF is up. The cord would not be severed because the duplicate was not slain, he's meerly in some "Other" place. The same place that incorporal undead (or Roaming Evil Spirits) go when they are supressed.

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-02, 09:20 AM
The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

AMF is essentially (not quite, but for the purposes of this discussion it doesn't matter) a persistent Dispel Magic everywhere within a certain radius. Since (in the part I quoted) the text reads that dispel magic on either of the bodies involved ENDS THE SPELL, I would rule that, being subject to AMF (a magic-canceling effect in this case indistinguishable from Dispel) also simply ends the spell.



Dispel Magic on the physical body or the astral form not the cord can terminate the spell.

I am almost positive that this means that Silver Cords cannot be dispelled. Otherwise (aka. if you were right), the text should mention that a Dispel Magic targeting the Cord kills you, which it would if simply going through an AMF kills you.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 10:13 AM
Castlemike, you are attempting to abuse the English language to support your interpretation and it makes me sad.

Please read the passage again about broken.

"If the cord is broken, you are killed."

Suppressing (that is what AMFs do, please try to figure out what suppress actually means, it does not mean to cause to cease to exist, it does not mean to destroy, it means to temporarily cause to have no effect) the cord does not break it. It could arguably create a break in the cord just like covering part of a line creates a break in the line, but that does not mean the Cord is broken. You can't break the cord with a suppressive field.


So, is there any item in any supplement that specifically says that it can be used to cut a silver cord? And if so, does it also state that it is the only item that can be used?

Yes there is. It's called the Githanki Sword forged from some weird Astral metal. It specifically says that it is capable of cutting the cord, unlike other weapons which can't. It does not say that it is the only thing capable of doing so, because there are some Astral creatures that can cut the cord with their claws/what have you.

Of course it's all a moot point because you won't have a Wizard killer anyway, since Wizards capable of casting AP can also cast Superior invisibility, Foresight, and Shapechange for durations between 4 and 24 hours.

BardicDuelist
2008-04-02, 10:24 AM
OP, I do not understand your fear of house rules. If you are the DM and you want to play that way, Houserule it, but tell your players. If you're a player, then play by your DM's houserules (which not including this will probably benefit you). It's rather simple. RAW is rather irrelevant in a real game.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 10:44 AM
OP, I do not understand your fear of house rules. If you are the DM and you want to play that way, Houserule it, but tell your players. If you're a player, then play by your DM's houserules (which not including this will probably benefit you). It's rather simple. RAW is rather irrelevant in a real game.

The point is that these people post these things not to address things in their game. Posts like this, and the vague hope that the Polymorph subschool retroactively adds limits to Alter Self and Polymorph are examples of poeple who want to "Win" theoretical discussions on these boards.

It's not about balancing AP relative to a game, it's about finding some way to prove that AP isn't broken to start with, because that way they can pretend that Wizards aren't the be all an end all of D&D after level 17. (And tied with Archivists and Clerics for 13 up.)

If they ever admit that it needs fixing then they "lose" in their goal to prove that Wizards aren't immortal.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 10:45 AM
AMF is essentially (not quite, but for the purposes of this discussion it doesn't matter) a persistent Dispel Magic everywhere within a certain radius. Since (in the part I quoted) the text reads that dispel magic on either of the bodies involved ENDS THE SPELL, I would rule that, being subject to AMF (a magic-canceling effect in this case indistinguishable from Dispel) also simply ends the spell.



I am almost positive that this means that Silver Cords cannot be dispelled. Otherwise (aka. if you were right), the text should mention that a Dispel Magic targeting the Cord kills you, which it would if simply going through an AMF kills you.

I disagree with the first part it does matter very much. The AMF suppressing mechanic versus the standard dispelling mechanic is what allows the magical break in the astral cord between the astral body and the normal body.

There is some gray in the text of the two spells and how they could interact in a game. I could certainly play under your interpretation of the spell interaction. I am simply saying that is not the only way to interpret the spell mechanics in game.

Regarding the last it could also be interpreted that the lower level spell Dispel Magic is only effective against AP when it targets one of the two bodies not the astral cord.

The astral cord not being able to be dispelled is not the same as the astral cord or the astral body being unable to be suppressed which is what the AMF does suppresses any spell or magical effect used within , brought into, or cast into the area but does not dispel it. A key point is it prevents the function of any magic items or spells within its confines. The AP specifically says the dispel magic must target the astral body or the wizard's body.

Normally if the body or astral body is sucessfully dispelled the AP is ended. An AMF will suppress the part of the AP it interacts with not dispel it, which will cause a magical break at some point between the astral body and the wizard's body which then kills the wizard as per the AP spell text since the astral body and wizard's body are not connected via the astral cord due to the nature of the AMF.



Castlemike, you are attempting to abuse the English language to support your interpretation and it makes me sad.

Please read the passage again about broken.

"If the cord is broken, you are killed."

Suppressing (that is what AMFs do, please try to figure out what suppress actually means, it does not mean to cause to cease to exist, it does not mean to destroy, it means to temporarily cause to have no effect) the cord does not break it. It could arguably create a break in the cord just like covering part of a line creates a break in the line, but that does not mean the Cord is broken. You can't break the cord with a suppressive field.




That is the key point "If the cord is broken, you are killed."

Throw in a AMF and the cord is broken magically since the Astral body and the wizard's body are no longer connected. The AMF is doing what a Gith Silver Sword does break the connection between the two bodies.

BardicDuelist
2008-04-02, 10:55 AM
The point is that these people post these things not to address things in their game. Posts like this, and the vague hope that the Polymorph subschool retroactively adds limits to Alter Self and Polymorph are examples of poeple who want to "Win" theoretical discussions on these boards.

It's not about balancing AP relative to a game, it's about finding some way to prove that AP isn't broken to start with, because that way they can pretend that Wizards aren't the be all an end all of D&D after level 17. (And tied with Archivists and Clerics for 13 up.)

If they ever admit that it needs fixing then they "lose" in their goal to prove that Wizards aren't immortal.

Ah, now I remember why I took a three month hiatis from these boards. Since there is no point in arguing with him (he has his mind made up), let's just let him think he's won.

CastleMike: It doesn't really matter. D&D is about the game, not the rules discussions. Did it come up in a real game? Is it likely to? If it does, will you be playing or DMing? In the end, will it really matter?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 11:27 AM
That is the key point "If the cord is broken, you are killed."

Throw in a AMF and the cord is broken magically since the Astral body and the wizard's body are no longer connected. The AMF is doing what a Gith Silver Sword does break the connection between the two bodies.

Again, abusing the English language. Having a break (IE suppressed portion IE gap) is not the same as a broken cord (IE severing).

Which sounds more like something that kills you? Gap of Severing?

koldstare
2008-04-02, 12:23 PM
The cord comes back after the AMF moves away or otherwise ends. It does not kill the wizard IMO.

My question is: Why ask a question on the board if you already have it in your mind what the answer is going to be.

streakster
2008-04-02, 12:27 PM
Answer to OP: No.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 12:56 PM
My question is: Why ask a question on the board if you already have it in your mind what the answer is going to be.

I refer you to post #17.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-02, 01:48 PM
Castlemike, you are attempting to abuse the English language to support your interpretation and it makes me sad.

Please read the passage again about broken.

"If the cord is broken, you are killed."

Suppressing (that is what AMFs do, please try to figure out what suppress actually means, it does not mean to cause to cease to exist, it does not mean to destroy, it means to temporarily cause to have no effect) the cord does not break it. It could arguably create a break in the cord just like covering part of a line creates a break in the line, but that does not mean the Cord is broken. You can't break the cord with a suppressive field.





Main Entry: 1break
Function: verb
Pronunciation: 'brAk
Inflected Form(s): broke/'brOk/ ; bro·ken/'brO-k&n/ ; break·ing
Etymology: Middle English breken, from Old English brecan; akin to Old High German brehhan to break, Latin frangere
transitive senses
1 a : to separate into parts with suddenness or violence b : FRACTURE <break an arm> c : RUPTURE <break the skin> d : to cut into and turn over the surface of <break the soil> e : to render inoperable <broke his watch>
2 a : VIOLATE , TRANSGRESS <break the law> <break a promise> b : to invalidate (a will) by action at law
3 a archaic : to force entry into b : to burst and force a way through <break the sound barrier> <break a racial barrier> c : to escape by force from <break jail> d : to make or effect by cutting, forcing, or pressing through <break a trail through the woods>
4 : to disrupt the order or compactness of <break ranks>

5 : to make ineffective as a binding force <break the spell>

6 a : to defeat utterly and end as an effective force : DESTROY b : to crush the spirit of c : to make tractable or submissive: as (1) past part often broke : to train (an animal) to adjust to the service or convenience of humans <a halter-broke horse> (2) : INURE , ACCUSTOM d : to exhaust in health, strength, or capacity
7 a : to stop or bring to an end suddenly : HALT <break a deadlock> b : INTERRUPT , SUSPEND <break the silence with a cry> c : to open and bring about suspension of operation <break an electric circuit> d : to destroy unity or completeness of <break a dining room set by buying a chair> e : to change the appearance of uniformity of <a dormer breaks the level roof> f : to split the surface of <fish breaking water> g : to cause to discontinue a habit <tried to break him of smoking>
8 a : to make known : TELL <break the bad news gently> b : to bring to attention or prominence initially <radio stations breaking new musicians> <break a news story>
9 a : to ruin financially b : to reduce in rank
10 a : to split into smaller units, parts, or processes : DIVIDE b (1) : to give or get the equivalent of (a bill) in smaller denominations (2) : to use as the denomination in paying a bill <didn't want to break a $20 bill> -- often used with into, up, or down
11 a : to check the speed, force, or intensity of <the bushes will break his fall> <without breaking her stride> b : to cause failure and discontinuance of (a strike) by measures outside bargaining processes
12 : to cause a sudden significant decrease in the price, value, or volume of <news likely to break the market sharply>
13 a : EXCEED , SURPASS <break the record> b : to score less than (a specified total) <golfer trying to break 90> c : to win against (an opponent's service) in a racket game
14 : to open the action of (a breechloader)
15 a : to find an explanation or solution for : SOLVE <the detective will break the case> b : to discover the essentials of (a code or cipher system)
16 : to demonstrate the falsity of <break an alibi>
17 : to ruin the prospects of <could make or break her career>
18 : to produce visibly <barely breaks a sweat>
intransitive senses
1 a : to escape with sudden forceful effort -- often used with out <break out of jail> b : to come into being by or as if by bursting forth <day was breaking> c : to effect a penetration <break through security lines> d : to emerge through the surface of the water e : to start abruptly <when the storm broke> f : to become known or published <when the news broke> g : to make a sudden dash <break for cover> h : to separate after a clinch in boxing
2 a : to come apart or split into pieces : BURST , SHATTER b : to open spontaneously or by pressure from within <his boil finally broke> c of a wave : to curl over and fall apart in surf or foam
3 : to interrupt one's activity or occupation for a brief period <break for lunch>
4 : to alter sharply in tone, pitch, or intensity <a voice breaking with emotion>
5 : to become fair : CLEAR <when the weather breaks>
6 : to make the opening shot of a game of pool
7 : to end a relationship, connection, or agreement -- usually used with with
8 : to give way in disorderly retreat
9 a : to swerve suddenly b : to curve, drop, or rise sharply <a pitch that breaks away from the batter>
10 a : to fail in health, strength, vitality, resolve, or control <may break under questioning> -- often used with down b : to become inoperative because of damage, wear, or strain
11 : to fail to keep a prescribed gait -- used of a horse
12 : to undergo a sudden significant decrease in price, value, or volume <transportation stocks may break sharply>
13 : HAPPEN , DEVELOP <for the team to succeed, everything has to break right>
14 : to win against an opponent's service in a racket game
15 a : to divide into classes, categories, or types -- usually used with into and often with down <the topic breaks down into three questions> b : to fold, bend, lift, or come apart at a seam, groove, or joint c of cream : to separate during churning into liquid and fat
- break a leg -- used to wish good luck especially to a performer
- break bread : to dine together
- break camp : to pack up gear and leave a camp or campsite
- break cover also break covert : to start from a covert or lair
- break even : to achieve a balance esp : to operate a business or enterprise without either loss or profit
- break ground 1 : to begin construction -- usually used with for 2 or break new ground : to make or show discoveries : PIONEER
- break into 1 : to begin with or as if with a sudden throwing off of restraint <broke into tears> <face breaking into a smile> <the horse breaks into a gallop> 2 : to make entry or entrance into <broke into the house> <break into show business> 3 : INTERRUPT <break into a TV program with a news flash>
- break one's heart : to crush emotionally with sorrow
- break one's wrists : to turn the wrists as part of the swing of a club or bat
- break ranks also break rank : to differ in opinion or action from one's peers -- often used with with
- break the back of : to subdue the main force of <break the back of inflation>
- break the ice 1 : to make a beginning 2 : to get through the first difficulties in starting a conversation or discussion
- break wind : to expel gas from the intestine

Pronunciation Key

More Information: Audio

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-02, 01:53 PM
The point is that these people post these things not to address things in their game. Posts like this, and the vague hope that the Polymorph subschool retroactively adds limits to Alter Self and Polymorph are examples of poeple who want to "Win" theoretical discussions on these boards.

It's not about balancing AP relative to a game, it's about finding some way to prove that AP isn't broken to start with, because that way they can pretend that Wizards aren't the be all an end all of D&D after level 17. (And tied with Archivists and Clerics for 13 up.)

If they ever admit that it needs fixing then they "lose" in their goal to prove that Wizards aren't immortal.

Once again, an opposing opinion.

CASTLEMIKE made some very good points here.

The whole issue is that quite a few players view some of the (even core) spells and think "hmmm...this text is not worded too precisely. It could mean INSERTRANDOM UBERNESS." And then they often go through the roof, if
1) they are shown that there actually is NO other interpretation possible by the RAW but the non-broken one or
2) there is no interpretation possible any sane DM would allow (i.e. using common sense) OR
3) the example CASTLEMIKE used when he said that there are SEVERAL more or less equally possible interpretations from the spell description.

However, many players and posters still jump to their 100% RAW conclusion and thus go to their (unprepared) DMs and claiming caster uberness and non-caster suckage, or outright dominating the game.

This kind of approach can only be opposed by discussions like these.

Turning to the astral projection example.
Basically, the idea to use this (9th!!) level spell for something else than going to other planes WITH THE WHOLE GROUP is innovative and good.
This includes the idea to basically have a "reset" button available with all items. You can go to hell and back (literally) without anything ever happening REALLY to you (which is much better than the lower-level plane shift version; basically you act like very "mythadventures"-like in a way reminiscent of the summoned creatures on the prime material plane (only that you summoned yourself)).
Then the idea comes up to also use it to project yourself onto the prime material plane. This, unfortunately, is not possible from reading the spell description which states explicitly that you leave behind your body on the material plane to go to OTHER planes. So no putting bodies into extra-dimensional spaces while walking around as the invincible wizards (with just one spell, that is :smallbiggrin: )
From somewhere else recently the idea came up (do not remember exactly where) that you could circumvent the "only projecting to other planes" part by using plane shirt or etheralness while astrally projected, and thus get back on the material plane.
Now this might be done (at least besides astral projection, now you need another spell). Remember, though, that the astral projection has the following vulnerabilities:
- your body is left somewhere behind on the material plane. You may protect it somehow, but at levels 17&up the astral projection caster can have quite powerful enemies who make use of this vulnerability (including the ability to located it magically; the usual MIND blank does not help :smallcool: )
- the astral projection is ended by a simple (greater) dispel magic which many foes of that CR and up have, and this could mean a swift "TPK" at a critical moment in the adventure.
- I'd second CASTLEMIKE's proposition that the astral projection is highly vulnerable to someone moving up to the astrally projected hero with AMF up. The astral body is suppressed, the "cord" thus hangs in empty air, which is all that is apparently meant by the spell description. But, as CASTLEMIKE said, other interpretations are possible.
It's up to the DM, I guess, and the way the (ab)use of astral projection thwarts the general balance of his challenges.

- Giacomo

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-02, 02:09 PM
So what rules support is there for the Silver Cord actually existing as a rope dangling in the "air" of the Astral Plane?

From the Monster Manual: "High-level githyanki often take the Improved Sunder feat, using their silver swords to attack astral travelers' silver cords"...

This suggests that to strike the cord, you're basically sundering something the astral traveler is carrying; this, in turn, suggests that the cord does not in fact occupy astral space behind the traveler.

I'd say the silver cord, unintuitively, is not an actual "cord" in space; it's an attribute of the astral traveller's astral body. If it does not exist in space, it can't intersect with antimagic fields.


Incidentally, is the "silver cord" concept really from Robert E. Howard's People of the Black Circle, or did he get it from some other source?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-02, 02:13 PM
Giacomo, I think you're projecting.

What you do is read a spell and look for the worst way to interpret it, no matter how unreasonable it is.

What other people do is read a spell, figure out what it says it does, and *then* go "this is really powerful". People are not intentionally interpreting spells in the most powerful way possible, they are interpreting spells logically, and the logical interpretation is sometimes powerful.

Ponce
2008-04-02, 02:15 PM
basically you act like very "mythadventures"-like in a way reminiscent of the summoned creatures on the prime material plane

A good analogy, I think. But then, summoned creatures don't die in an AMF. Why would a wizard?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 02:19 PM
What happens? The Wizard's projection goes *poof* and reappears once the AMF is gone. Whether or not the wizard wakes up is debatable. But it doesn't sever the cord.

Collin152
2008-04-02, 02:26 PM
Antimagic Field does not work that way!
Things supressed by it return exactly as they were if their duration is long enough when the field is removed. If it severed the cord, this would not be the case.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 02:28 PM
I'm with Tippy, the AMF suppresses magical effects in its field, it doesn't dispel them or otherwise affect them, they count as running for the purposes of duration so the wizard shouldn't die they just get surpressed temporarily.

Now if the wizard passes through a dead magic zone then that might work the way you want it to but there isn't a spell to make one of those and to be honest I'd say that since the wizard can't project into it they would just feel an unpassable barrier.

Funkyodor
2008-04-02, 02:40 PM
Yes there is. It's called the Githanki Sword forged from some weird Astral metal. It specifically says that it is capable of cutting the cord, unlike other weapons which can't. It does not say that it is the only thing capable of doing so, because there are some Astral creatures that can cut the cord with their claws/what have you.

Of course it's all a moot point because you won't have a Wizard killer anyway, since Wizards capable of casting AP can also cast Superior invisibility, Foresight, and Shapechange for durations between 4 and 24 hours.

So, the vague reference "very hard to destroy" is clarified in the MM 3.5 under the Githyanki entry with regards to their specific sword. Having Owners AC and measly DR/HP when Improved Sundered by a Gith Silver Sword. No where does it say that normal weapons/other weapons can't destroy a Silver Cord. It just refers to it as normally insubstantial. So in this I disagree with you.

As to the AP and AMF issue, the AMF causes the AP to "Wink-out". When wink-out'ed, time passes normally for the AP and his Silver Cord would eminate from him in this "Wink-Zone". In theory, the best situation would be to just trick one into a permenant AMF so that the AP can never leave, can never return, and never age. The Wizard would have gained immortality at the cost of eternal imprisonment.

Collin152
2008-04-02, 02:44 PM
As to the AP and AMF issue, the AMF causes the AP to "Wink-out". When wink-out'ed, time passes normally for the AP and his Silver Cord would eminate from him in this "Wink-Zone". In theory, the best situation would be to just trick one into a permenant AMF so that the AP can never leave, can never return, and never age. The Wizard would have gained immortality at the cost of eternal imprisonment.

It's hard/impossible/realy expensive to make AMF permanent. Especially given it surrounds the caster.
You could just, you know, cast Imprisonment.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 02:45 PM
The whole issue is that quite a few players view some of the (even core) spells and think "hmmm...this text is not worded too precisely. It could mean INSERTRANDOM UBERNESS." And then they often go through the roof, if
1) they are shown that there actually is NO other interpretation possible by the RAW but the non-broken one or
2) there is no interpretation possible any sane DM would allow (i.e. using common sense) OR
3) the example CASTLEMIKE used when he said that there are SEVERAL more or less equally possible interpretations from the spell description.

This is precisely my point, people like you, Castlemike, Cuddly, and others have a huge axe to grind.

You look at a spell or an ability, and you twist and stretch and ignore some parts and emphasize others until you can force some sort of twisted "interpretation" out of it that you like.

You say "hmmm...this text is not worded too precisely. It could mean INSERTRANDOM UBERNESS." but what really happens is that some people see what the spell says, and others, like you, see the wording as a puzzle in which you twist and reshape until you find that one single possible way of making it as weak as possible.

There aren't several equally valid interpretations there is one obvious intended and sensible one, and one highly convoluted one that only people with an agenda even take seriously.

If there were ever a spell that read:

"The target is immune to all damage, all conditions (as listed in the PHB), and cannot die for the duration of the spell. This spell is immune to dispel magic unless the Caster level of the dispel is higher then the caster level of this spell"

And for a moment let's assume that this spell was Core.

You with your, Core balance agenda would jump in and point out have having a higher caster level allows your effects to ignore the entire spell, so a CL 11 fireball would override the spell text. You would then further add that since swords do not have a CL that all melee attacks would ignore the spell.

You twist and squirm to find any little thing you can to make the spell say what you want it to, not what it actually does.

Same thing here: We have a 9th level spell that basically gives immunity to death except under very specific circumstances, but comes with it's own drawbacks. Castlemike can't handle that, so he jumps in with

Castlemike: AMF suppresses spells, And suppressing a spell is exactly the same as cutting a physical object.
Me: No it isn't, it's a suppression effect.
5 other posters: No it doesn't work that way.
You: I agree on which ever "interpretation" makes AP weakest because CORE IS BALANCED AND IF IT WEREN'T I WOULD HAVE TO QUIT D&D FOREVER!

Your agenda biases your opinions so much that I highly doubt anyone can really take your "interpretations" seriously.


Then the idea comes up to also use it to project yourself onto the prime material plane. This, unfortunately, is not possible from reading the spell description which states explicitly that you leave behind your body on the material plane to go to OTHER planes.

Actually, there is nothing in the Astral Projection description that prevents you from Projecting with your body from some other plane besides the Prime Material, which means you could also project back onto the Prime. Preferably from your own Genesis Plane.


- your body is left somewhere behind on the material plane. You may protect it somehow, but at levels 17&up the astral projection caster can have quite powerful enemies who make use of this vulnerability (including the ability to located it magically; the usual MIND blank does not help :smallcool: )

See what I said about Projecting from another Plane. And Mindblank might not help, but Sequester would, and it's longer duration too.


- the astral projection is ended by a simple (greater) dispel magic which many foes of that CR and up have, and this could mean a swift "TPK" at a critical moment in the adventure.

Indeed that is one of the disadvantages of Astral Projection.


- I'd second CASTLEMIKE's proposition that the astral projection is highly vulnerable to someone moving up to the astrally projected hero with AMF up. The astral body is suppressed, the "cord" thus hangs in empty air, which is all that is apparently meant by the spell description. But, as CASTLEMIKE said, other interpretations are possible.

There are a few different interpretations, I presented two based on the spell text (of both spells). Chronos suggested another. But unfortunately for Castlemike, everyone else can see the incredible contortions he is attempting to put the spell text through in order to come up with the answer he desires. Ironically, I was asked to define this very fallacy as extra credit on my Philosophy exam today.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 02:54 PM
So, the vague reference "very hard to destroy" is clarified in the MM 3.5 under the Githyanki entry with regards to their specific sword. Having Owners AC and measly DR/HP when Improved Sundered by a Gith Silver Sword. No where does it say that normal weapons/other weapons can't destroy a Silver Cord. It just refers to it as normally insubstantial. So in this I disagree with you.

So when presented with the text "Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord." and the fact that a very specific sword made of a very specific material (the same material I might add) forged almost literally from the spirit of a mentally powerful warrior race born and bred on the Astral Plane can cut the cord you jump straight to the conclusion that any old +1 sword that cost 2050gp can cut the cord.

Yeah, that makes sense. You aren't stretching to make your pet theory of high level Wizard killers possible at all.

jamroar
2008-04-02, 03:06 PM
So, the vague reference "very hard to destroy" is clarified in the MM 3.5 under the Githyanki entry with regards to their specific sword. Having Owners AC and measly DR/HP when Improved Sundered by a Gith Silver Sword. No where does it say that normal weapons/other weapons can't destroy a Silver Cord. It just refers to it as normally insubstantial. So in this I disagree with you.


So, the vague reference "very hard to destroy" is clarified in the MM 3.5 under the Githyanki entry with regards to their specific sword. Having Owners AC and measly DR/HP when Improved Sundered by a Gith Silver Sword. No where does it say that normal weapons/other weapons can't destroy a Silver Cord. It just refers to it as normally insubstantial. So in this I disagree with you.

The reason why the hardness/HP of the cord is listed in the Gith Silver Sword section is that it is the only thing known to be able to sever an Astral Cord, being crafted for that purpose. It's not there for all intent and purposes of all other weapons, so you can't attack it.

The silver cord is part of the caster's spirit(which is why you die when it is severed from your body), not part of the spell. When the effect is suppressed, the spirit is simply forced back into it's real body.

However, it's implied that AP doesn't stack. The second body is not real in the sense that it's created from the Astral body which the other end of the silver cord must remain attached to, so I would rule projecting again would simply destroy the second body and return you to your astral form on the Astral plane.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 03:30 PM
Jamroar, you edited your post? Did you see the light?

Anyway the reason that it seems clear to some that you can project onto the material plane is because the text "you can project an Astral body onto another plane" seems to be saying another plane besides the Astral. Since that's where the source of the projection is.

Others see it for some reason as saying in a round about way: You can project from the Astral Plane to any plane other then the Material. But that seems cumbersome, nonsensical, and forced to me. What exactly is different about projecting yourself to celesta from the Astral versus from the PM from Astral.

Similarly, the Prime Material text in the AP spell seems to be one of those things where the designers forget that there are other places besides the default setting. Can one not cast AP from Sigil? Do Solar's with the right Domain not get to cast AP unless they first Planeshift to the Material?

Notice that every sentence with "Prime Material" in it has a nearly exact copy elsewhere in the spell description that lacks those words.

Funkyodor
2008-04-02, 03:39 PM
Whoa, I referenced the silver sword text as best I could and refuted that it doesn't say it is the only thing that can cut the blasted Cord, and that the rules for the Cord as mentioned are only for being attacked by the Silver Sword. I mentioned normal weapons, out of exaggeration, and explicitly stated other weapons as well. Challenges that a Wizard of that level will face might have the knowlege/means to either procure, construct, or steal something that will do the trick. Not necessarily a Githyanki Silver Sword. This "very difficult to destroy" statement is it's own kind of RaW in that generalities are probably going to be determined by the DM and not the Player.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-02, 04:25 PM
If there were ever a spell that read:

"The target is immune to all damage, all conditions (as listed in the PHB), and cannot die for the duration of the spell. This spell is immune to dispel magic unless the Caster level of the dispel is higher then the caster level of this spell"

Luckily such an (obviously) broken spell does not exist in the core rules. So it's not an issue. Why, though, do you insist in INTERPRETING some spells (even if they are of 9th level) to do something similar to the above?


Your agenda biases your opinions so much that I highly doubt anyone can really take your "interpretations" seriously.

Well, this could also be said about you. For a neutral observer, I mean.


Actually, there is nothing in the Astral Projection description that prevents you from Projecting with your body from some other plane besides the Prime Material, which means you could also project back onto the Prime. Preferably from your own Genesis Plane.

Nothing? I did this once, and I gladly do it again:

Bold emphasises mine (from SRD):
Astral Projection
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 30 minutes
Range: Touch
Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.


See? It is even mentioned IN THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE SPELL DESCRIPTION what the spell does: ANOTHER plane altogether.

This is not "twist and squirm".

It MAY be made a case that this somehow means you can go back to the material plane in astral body (and I already mentioned that it should definitely be possible with a plane shift spell). Additionally, beings with different home planes, would then have that plane as their "material plane".

And now, let me ask you something: when the wording is not entirely clear, why do YOU then always jump to the most powerful/even broken solution? Would you wish to play with such an interpretation? Would you wish as a DM to allow your party to use it, without the encounters having big chances to do something about it? (i.e. your interpretation to use astral projection leaving your body in a pocket paradise WHICH IS EXPLICITLY NOT ALLOWED BY THE SPELL, then projecting in safety to the prime material plane to "win" or what?)

Well, you may argue the game mechanics is broken, but in fact the only thing that happens is that the game is not 100% foolproof to some interpretations abandoning common sense imo.

- Giacomo

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 05:14 PM
Luckily such an (obviously) broken spell does not exist in the core rules. So it's not an issue.

And if it did you would have to kill yourself because your entire existence would cease to be.

Of course, when someone points out that spell you will deny it's brokenness as part of your fanatic obsession with core balance.


Why, though, do you insist in INTERPRETING some spells (even if they are of 9th level) to do something similar to the above?

Because that's what the spell says it does. Unlike you, I am capable of accepting that spells do what they say they do.


Well, this could also be said about you. For a neutral observer, I mean.

Really? Interesting comment considering that myself, RoL, Tippy, and eleven neutral observers have all agreed that it works one way, and only you and Castlemike think the other is even an option (to be fair, one poster abstained from making a decision.)

Not to mention that I wasn't even the first person to point out your bias influencing your opinion.

But I'm sure that any Neutral observer would agree that me and my 13 friends are stretching just as much as you and Castlemike.


Bold emphasises mine (from SRD):
Astral Projection
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 30 minutes
Range: Touch
Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.
You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).
Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.


Do you even read what you bold? How about this: "Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will."

Does the Prime Material plane touch the Astral Plane? Yes. Can you travel to this other (IE non-Astral) plane? Yes. See now reading the spell wasn't so hard.


See? It is even mentioned IN THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE SPELL DESCRIPTION what the spell does: ANOTHER plane altogether.

You mean it says you can project to another plane besides the Astral? You mean like the Prime Material?


Additionally, beings with different home planes, would then have that plane as their "material plane".

Except that D&D has a very specific definition of what the Material Plane is. And guess what, Celesta isn't a part of it. However, the default starting place of PCs is on the Material Plane. Which is more likely, that the designers assumed you would start from your home plane when they typed the descriptive text because they didn't realize you could planeshift elsewhere and Project from there, or the spell only works when you start on one specific plane even though the whole purpose of the spell is to allow trips to other planes?


And now, let me ask you something: when the wording is not entirely clear, why do YOU then always jump to the most powerful/even broken solution?

I don't. I read the descriptions exactly as they are. If they tell me that I can do 1d6/CL damage, then I can do that. If they tell me that I can travel Astrally from the Astral Plane to any other Plane of my choice and create a physical body on that plane, I can do that.


Would you wish to play with such an interpretation? Would you wish as a DM to allow your party to use it, without the encounters having big chances to do something about it?

Yes, I would like to play and DM in games where the rules are followed and the spells do what they describe doing. But that doesn't mean the encounters don't have a chance to do something about it. Sure the Tarrasque doesn't, but he's Chump change anyway. Balors are easily capable of dealing with APs.


Well, you may argue the game mechanics is broken, but in fact the only thing that happens is that the game is not 100% foolproof to some interpretations abandoning common sense imo.

I have never argued that the game mechanics are broken, only that you and to a lesser extent Castlemike are motivated by a desire to prove they aren't. I have never had a problem in any of my games with the rules being broken, because I encourage my players to use intelligent tactics to deal with intelligent foes. And as such, my players are able to both play D&D and be challenged.

Do I accept that Astral Projection creates a situation where the players are highly unlikely to die when facing enemies not specifically prepared for them? Yes. Does that hurt my games in any way? No.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 11:22 AM
A good analogy, I think. But then, summoned creatures don't die in an AMF. Why would a wizard?

Both AMF and AP are core spells. AMF specifically cites spells it is ineffective against in core. AMF doesn't dispel it suppresses. AP is a Necromancy spell not a Summoning spell. AMF only partially effects a AP due to the ranges of the two spells. Very rarely is casting AMF a first spell choice of most wizards in game

It normally takes a Legendary L11+ wizard to cast or scribe the AMF spell based on the Legend Lore spell standard in game for what constitutes Legendary status in game and a L15+ Cleric without the Magic or Protection domains in core.

Interestingly IMO Gith and Silver Swords or other Astral monsters capable of breaking a astral cord do not exist in core or the SRD and most creatures do not have AMF as a special while the AP spell says it can be broken in core.

AP spell says the wizard dies if the cord is broken. AMF creates a magical break in the astral cord between the wizard and his astral body. Most PCs in game are not Giths with Silver Swords. IMO there should be some risk to a BBEG wizard using AP against the PCs in game besides Imprisonment since MDJ would act as a dispelling spell.





Do I accept that Astral Projection creates a situation where the players are highly unlikely to die when facing enemies not specifically prepared for them? Yes. Does that hurt my games in any way? No.

Curious what tactics in core you consider effective for PCs versus AP BBEGs in most campaigns besides Silver Swords (Don't exist), Dispelling (Variants Break Enchantment, Greater Dispelling & MDJ) which do not really solve the problem of the AP BBEG and Imprisonment? Thanks.

IMO Greater Miracle and Wish for an Astral Storm could work but would not necessarily work in most campaigns.

Ponce
2008-04-03, 12:22 PM
Both AMF and AP are core spells. AMF specifically cites spells it is ineffective against in core. AMF doesn't dispel it suppresses. AP is a Necromancy spell not a Summoning spell. AMF only partially effects a AP due to the ranges of the two spells.

It was an analogue to begin with, one that addressed flavor. There are obviously differences between Summoning and AP, otherwise they'd be the exact same thing, not analogues. However, there's nothing indicating that the things that separate the two would have any effect on the life of the subject.

You have to destroy the silver cord. AMFs do not destroy. They suppress, as you say.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 12:30 PM
It was an analogue to begin with, one that addressed flavor. There are obviously differences between Summoning and AP, otherwise they'd be the exact same thing, not analogues. However, there's nothing indicating that the things that separate the two would have any effect on the life of the subject.

You have to destroy the silver cord. AMFs do not destroy. They suppress, as you say.

The necromancy mechanic makes AP more similar mechanically to a calling spell than a summoning spell. (Summoned creatures die but not back on their home plane while called creatures die if killed while called)

If the astral cord is suppressed then there is a break between the wizard's body and his astral form. AP spell says the wizard dies if there is a break.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 12:46 PM
while the AP spell says it can be broken in core.

Actually, it doesn't say that. Because nowhere in all of D&D does it ever address anything as Core. Because 3.5 Ed "Core" was made under the assumptions:

1) There would be splat books soon.

2) In the mean time, players would keep using all their 3.0 stuff, including the Planar handbook which has information about creatures on the astral plane.

Which means D&D 3.5 is one of the few games in which the design was made under the assumption that no one would ever be playing with just the core three books unless they choose to ignore all the other material already out there.

Of course that besides the point, since the MM has Monsters capable of breaking the Silver Cord.


Curious what tactics in core you consider effective for PCs versus AP BBEGs in most campaigns besides Silver Swords (Don't exist), Dispelling (Variants Break Enchantment, Greater Dispelling & MDJ) which do not really solve the problem of the AP BBEG and Imprisonment? Thanks.

There is nothing stopping you from killing the AP any other way. And it's not like you can realistically expect to kill a Wizard with access to 9th level spells until you are at least level 15. So they must already have the means to teleport about doing whatever they wanted to do Mindblanked and ignoring this guy.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 12:48 PM
The necromancy mechanic makes AP more similar mechanically to a calling spell than a summoning spell. (Summoned creatures die but not back on their home plane while called creatures die if killed while called)

If the astral cord is suppressed then there is a break between the wizard's body and his astral form. AP spell says the wizard dies if there is a break.

Necromancy makes it more like a spell that effects someones life force.

Calling and Summoning are both parts of the Conjuration school, and have nothing to do with necromancy, and have much more in common then either does with necromantic projection.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 12:51 PM
Actually, it doesn't say that. Because nowhere in all of D&D does it ever address anything as Core. Because 3.5 Ed "Core" was made under the assumptions:



Actually it does say if the cord is broken in core/srd:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm

What I basically asked is how do the PCs stop the AP BBEG in core? Your reply:



There is nothing stopping you from killing the AP any other way. And it's not like you can realistically expect to kill a Wizard with access to 9th level spells until you are at least level 15. So they must already have the means to teleport about doing whatever they wanted to do Mindblanked and ignoring this guy.

Ponce
2008-04-03, 12:53 PM
The necromancy mechanic makes AP more similar mechanicall to a calling spell than a summoning spell. (Summoned creatures die but not back on their home plane while called creatures die if killed while called)

If the astral cord is suppressed then there is a break between the wizard's body and his astral form.

The AP is dissimilar to calling in that you do not die if your AP is slain. Further, if you want to say it is a calling spell, then why does the AMF have any effect at all on the AP? Your actual body does not move.

At any rate, you're still welcome to instead compare it to calling - I can see how they are similar. But this further implicates that the cord is not actually destroyed or harmed in any way by the AMF. You have to destroy the cord. The AMF simply does not do this.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 01:12 PM
Actually it does say if the cord is broken in core/srd:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm

And my point is that it doesn't say, "very few things is Core can destroy the Cord." It says very few things. Which means it was probably refrencing the Gith swords which have existed in every edition of D&D since the Astral Plane was formalized as real destination for PCs and already existed in 3.5 D&D thanks to the 3.0 material that had not been updated.


What I basically asked is how do the PCs stop the AP BBEG in core? Your reply:

Yes, they stop the BBEG by stopping his AP. If his master evil plan is to sit in a Genesis Plane all day and cry because no one likes him then why are they even trying to thwart him?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 01:18 PM
The AP is dissimilar to calling in that you do not die if your AP is slain.

I mostly agree except that the AP necromancy spell has apects of summoning and calling spells:

If the wizard is killed by damage his Astral body dies but not the wizard that is similar to summoning.

If the astral cord is broken the wizard dies that is similar to a calling effect where a called being from another plane is killed if he dies while called.


Further, if you want to say it is a calling spell, then why does the AMF have any effect at all on the AP? Your actual body does not move.



I am not saying it is a calling spell I am saying it is a special necromancy spell with unusual aspects.

In core this is one of the few spells that appear it should be effective for PCs other than Imprisonment for dealing with a recurring AP BBEG in game by making a break in the astral cord.



But this further implicates that the cord is not actually destroyed or harmed in any way by the AMF. You have to destroy the cord. The AMF simply does not do this.

I disagree the AMF suppresses not dispels the part of the AP spell it interacts with which magically breaks the astral cord connection between the wizard's body and the Astral body which causes the wizard to die according to the AP spell.



And my point is that it doesn't say, "very few things is Core can destroy the Cord." It says very few things.



Core PHB, DMG, MM, SRD what very few things are they saying? I am saying AMF will do it. You are saying non core material is required.




Which means it was probably refrencing the Gith swords which have existed in every edition of D&D since the Astral Plane was formalized as real destination for PCs and already existed in 3.5 D&D thanks to the 3.0 material that had not been updated.



Sure but we are discussing 3.5 core not everything before 3.5 core or additional 3.5 source books.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 01:21 PM
I disagree the AMF suppresses not dispels the part of the AP spell it interacts with which magically breaks the astral cord connection between the wizard's body and the Astral body which causes the wizard to die according to the AP spell.Except it suppresses the Wizard's Astral body, too. It technically doesn't exist for the same duration that the cord is suppressed.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 01:39 PM
Except it suppresses the Wizard's Astral body, too. It technically doesn't exist for the same duration that the cord is suppressed.

Exactly my point there is a magical break between the wizard's body and the astral cord connecting it to the astral body.

The AP spell is very clear what happens when there is a break between the two bodies.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 01:42 PM
Exactly my point there is a magical break between the wizard's body and the astral cord connecting it to the astral body.
Actually no. Technically the Astral Cord winks out/is suppressed as well. The Cord comes from the projection, wherever the projection happens to be. So the cord is with the projection in wherever suppressed effects go.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 01:42 PM
Exactly my point there is a magical break between the wizard's body and the astral cord connecting it to the astral body.

The AP spell is very clear what happens when there is a break.There is no break in the cord between the Wizard's Astral Body and his "real" body. There is no Astral Body to be broken from.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 01:49 PM
I disagree the AMF suppresses not dispels the part of the AP spell it interacts with which magically breaks the astral cord connection between the wizard's body and the Astral body which causes the wizard to die according to the AP spell.

Here's the problem, as regards breaking the cord we have two sentences:

1) "If the cord is broken yadayadayada."

2) "Luckily very few things can destroy the cord."

There are also two definitions of broken that are being discussed:

Yours: "I hid the book behind my back. I have broken your line of sight."

Everyone but yours: "I grabbed the stick and snapped it over my knee. I have broken the stick."

Which of these two seems more likely to have destroyed substituted in for it in the next sentence?

AMFs suppress, they do not destroy, and as such, there is no reason to think that the AMF could break the cord in the way meant by the word broken, since broken is apparently synonymous with destroyed based on the text of the spell.

Interestingly my earlier point about you and Sir Giamoco is born out here:

You say that there is no other way using just the PHB spells to kill an APing Wizard who is on the Genesis Plane. (Ignoring for a moment that the Genesis plane is not in the PHB, so maybe you should allow your players to use material from other books if you are going to.)

You start from an assumption: "There must be a way to kill a APing Wizard using PHB spells." And from there it influences the way you interpret the spell. You are actively looking for some way to thwart AP, not logically evaluating the spells.

Others can accept that maybe AP makes Wizards unkillable using just PHB spells. Maybe it doesn't. You start from assuming that he must be killable and work your way from there.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 02:01 PM
Core PHB, DMG, MM, SRD what very few things are they saying? I am saying AMF will do it. You are saying non core material is required.

Sure but we are discussing 3.5 core not everything before 3.5 core or additional 3.5 source books.

This is precisely my point. We are not discussing 3.5 Core because 3.5 Core does not exist except inside your Head.

3.5 is an update, meaning that it was written under the assumption that Players and DMs would continue to use 3.0 material until that 3.0 material was updated.

3.5 was never meant to be played "Core" more then with splatbooks. Splatbooks are assumed material. It is expected that you would be using them. The already existed upon creation of the "Core" books.

There is no reason that "Core" can't include a reference to Gith swords which already existed in 3.5 D&D upon publishing of the PHB, and would continue to exist for the entirety of 3.5 D&D.

There is also specific reference in the MM to cutting the Cord. There is also no Genesis Plane in the PHB, meaning that the Wizard would be vulnerable somewhere to mundane death if you were just using those three books.

There is finally, no reason that AP can't make someone unkillable, because after enough APs are destroyed they run out of 1000gp gems.

But since you are being obtuse about it: Please Read page 128 in the Monster Manual, the section called "Githyanki Silver Swords."

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 02:13 PM
Actually no. Technically the Astral Cord winks out/is suppressed as well. The Cord comes from the projection, wherever the projection happens to be. So the cord is with the projection in wherever suppressed effects go.

I disagree the astral cord connects the astral body to the wizard's real body. AMF breaks that connection magically.


There is no break in the cord between the Wizard's Astral Body and his "real" body. There is no Astral Body to be broken from.

I disagree if they are not connected because of an AMF then the connection is broken magically.




1) "If the cord is broken yadayadayada."

2) "Luckily very few things[ can destroy the cord."



That is correct we are discussing what constitutes break as per AP specifically AMF not just Silver Swords.




You say that there is no other way using just the PHB spells to kill an APing Wizard who is on the Genesis Plane. (Ignoring for a moment that the Genesis plane is not in the PHB, so maybe you should allow your players to use material from other books if you are going to.)

You start from an assumption: "There must be a way to kill a APing Wizard using PHB spells." And from there it influences the way you interpret the spell. You are actively looking for some way to thwart AP, not logically evaluating the spells.

Others can accept that maybe AP makes Wizards unkillable using just PHB spells. Maybe it doesn't. You start from assuming that he must be killable and work your way from there.

No that is not what I am saying. You keep getting that incorrect. I am saying the AP spell stipulates what happens if there is a break in the astral cord between the wizard and his astral body.

AMF makes a break in the connection between the wizard and his Astal body.

I acknowledge what constitutes a break is slightly subjective in various games.

If a spell says it has a specific weakness in game I look for things in game to exploit that weakness or negate that weakness.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 02:22 PM
AMF makes a break in the connection between the wizard and his Astal body.

And this is precisely my point. AMF does not break the cord. It does not say "breaking the connection" kills the Wizard it says breaking the Cord. The Cord, a physical object, is not broken.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 02:23 PM
I disagree the astral cord connects the astral body to the wizard's real body.
That part we are in total agreement on. The cord does connect the projection and the real body.


AMF breaks that connection magically.
No it doesn't AMF sends the projection to another location/plane/whatever and the cord goes with it.

Now to be real pedantic. RAW you can only cast AP from the Material Plane but nothing stops your astral projection from Plane Shifting back to the material plane, so both your projection and your real body can exist on the same plane at the same time. Well lets look at the following sentance

When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body.

The bolded part is the real kicker. Since your projection and body are both on the Prime Material then your second body isn't formed on another plane. Meaning that no cord exists. So you can't break a cord that doesn't exist.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 02:33 PM
No it doesn't AMF sends the projection to another location/plane/whatever and the cord goes with it.



I disagree that is not the only interpretation for suppression by an AP interacting with an AMF.





Now to be real pedantic. RAW you can only cast AP from the Material Plane but nothing stops your astral projection from Plane Shifting back to the material plane, so both your projection and your real body can exist on the same plane at the same time. Well lets look at the following sentance


The bolded part is the real kicker. Since your projection and body are both on the Prime Material then your second body isn't formed on another plane. Meaning that no cord exists. So you can't break a cord that doesn't exist.



I disagree that is how you interpret the mechanic to work. According to that logic the wizard just died when they broke the Astral Cord plane shifting.




And this is precisely my point. AMF does not break the cord. It does not say "breaking the connection" kills the Wizard it says breaking the Cord. The Cord, a physical object, is not broken.

The cord is incorporeal according to the AP spell.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 02:57 PM
According to that logic the wizard just died when they broke the Astral Cord plane shifting.

No, that is your logic. Everyone but you thinks that the Cord has to be broken for the Wizard to die. You are the only one that thinks that the wizard dies if the connection is broken. It does not say anywhere in the text that "If the connection is broken the Wizard dies." Only the Cord itself a physical object.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 03:00 PM
The cord is incorporeal according to the AP spell.

Incorporeal and physical are not mutually exclusive. Though I see without any basis for an argument against my points you have resorted to quibbling about technical descriptions and ignoring my actual points.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 03:03 PM
Incorporeal and physical are not mutually exclusive. Though I see without any basis for an argument against my points you have resorted to quibbling about technical descriptions and ignoring my actual points.

I thought this was a core RAW discussion.



No, that is your logic.

Yes logic.




Everyone but you thinks that the Cord has to be broken for the Wizard to die.



That is an incorrect statement just reviewing this thread with out counting the people who have not weighed in one way or the other.



It does not say anywhere in the text that "If the connection is broken the Wizard dies." Only the Cord itself a physical object.

I disagree we must be reading different Astral Projection spells:

If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm



Incorporeal and physical are not mutually exclusive.


Incorporeal Subtype
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 03:14 PM
I thought this was a core RAW discussion.

1) I already told you what I think about your "Core" Raw discussion.

2) That's my point, it doesn't matter whether it is an incorporeal or a physical object. That object needs to be broken, not some ephemeral "connection" which is mentioned nowhere in any text and entirely made up by you.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 03:17 PM
1) I already told you what I think about your "Core" Raw discussion.


Thankyou for your time then particularly reminding me that the astral cord is incorporeal and checking out the incorporeal subtype mechanic.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 03:20 PM
Yes logic.

No, your twisted logic based on your inability to accept any answer but the one you want Something you even admitted to.


That is an incorrect statement just reviewing this thread with out counting the people who have not weighed in one way or the other.

So now you are going to quibble about the difference between "everyone but you" and "everyone but you and one other biased delusioned poster."


I disagree we must be reading different Astral Projection spells:

If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm

Clearly not, though apparently you aren't even reading what you are quoting.

It does not say the Wizard dies if you break the CONNECTION. You can break the connection all you want and it won't kill the Wizard. Only if you break the Cord. Which AMF can't do because AMF can't break anything. It can create a gap or "break" if you will.

But creating a break (n) is different from breaking (v) and the fact that you refuse to see that breaking the connection has no effect is just more proof that you are only willing to accept one possible answer no matter how unsupported it is, no matter how much you have to make things up to get there.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 03:23 PM
Thankyou for your time then particularly reminding me that the astral cord is incorporeal and checking out the incorporeal subtype mechanic.

So in other words your plan all along has been to just ignore the 500 times I have completely annihilated your argument and just quote small asides out of context and affix retarded comments on the bottom.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 04:20 PM
No, your twisted logic based on your inability to accept any answer but the one you want Something you even admitted to.


I disagree it appears you are misinterpreting what I am posting.

The AP spell has a weakness. It says breaking the astral cord kills the wizard and then leaves that open to very few things.

I am looking for workable tactics in core PHB, MM, DMG and the SRD that PCs could use to defeat the wizard either as a PC or a BBEG. IMO AMF meets the requirment.

An AP Wizard's weakest point is the AP spell itself once that is figured out. Dispelling his Astral Form or Killing it is no good because he can just recast it. The cord has to be broken.




So now you are going to quibble about the difference between "everyone but you" and "everyone but you and one other biased delusioned poster."



Yes the statement was not factual.




It does not say the Wizard dies if you break the CONNECTION. You can break the connection all you want and it won't kill the Wizard. Only if you break the Cord. Which AMF can't do because AMF can't break anything. It can create a gap or "break" if you will.

But creating a break (n) is different from breaking (v) and the fact that you refuse to see that breaking the connection has no effect is just more proof that you are only willing to accept one possible answer no matter how unsupported it is, no matter how much you have to make things up to get there.

I disagree what constitues a break.

It seems very reasonable that disrupting the incorporeal astral cord spell connection between the Astral body and the wizard's body magically with a single spell in game AMF would constitute a break in the AP.

Douglas
2008-04-03, 04:32 PM
If AMF were capable of "breaking" the cord in the sense required to kill the traveler, Githyanki Silver Swords would not be the feared weapons that they are. They are feared by astral travelers specifically because of their ability to harm and break silver cords. If a mere 6th level spell available to any wizard (or cleric if you go up two spell levels) were able to do so, especially automatically with a 100% chance of success, then that spell would be far more feared than the Silver Swords because it is so much more commonly available, at least among opponents powerful enough to normally consider opposing a 17+ level wizard.

allonym
2008-04-03, 04:36 PM
I'll summarise the thread -
CASTLEMIKE - "Hey guys, does AMF break the cord of an AP wizard?"
Replies (mostly) - "I'm pretty sure no is the answer"
CASTLEMIKE - "Actually it's 'yes', you're all wrong!"
Replies (mostly) - "Actually, it's 'no', you're wrong!"
Repeat.

CASTLEMIKE, if you feel that's the way it goes, rule that way. You seem unwaveringly in favour of your interpretation, not even a 'Hey, you know what, you might be right, but...'. So why the thread in the first place? Just wondering why you're arguing with almost everyone who tried to answer your initial question; were you expecting to be mostly agreed with?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-03, 04:46 PM
If AMF were capable of "breaking" the cord in the sense required to kill the traveler, Githyanki Silver Swords would not be the feared weapons that they are. They are feared by astral travelers specifically because of their ability to harm and break silver cords. If a mere 6th level spell available to any wizard (or cleric if you go up two spell levels) were able to do so, especially automatically with a 100% chance of success, then that spell would be far more feared than the Silver Swords because it is so much more commonly available, at least among opponents powerful enough to normally consider opposing a 17+ level wizard.

In your opinion what calling or summoning spells should reliably be able to call a Gith with a Silver Sword or summon a Silver Sword in game?

Would you allow a Planetar or a Solar or a Titan to break the astral cord with their designated weapons?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 04:53 PM
In your opinion what calling or summoning spells should reliably be able to call a Gith with a Silver Sword or summon a Silver Sword in game?
Sure. You can gate a Gith in if you want. And if you wanted to design your own spell to defeat Astral Projection I would allow it.


Would you allow a Planetar or a Solar or a Titan to break the astral cord with their designated weapons?
No.

Collin152
2008-04-03, 05:03 PM
Would you allow a Planetar or a Solar or a Titan to break the astral cord with their designated weapons?

There is nothing in the rules to imply this would be the case.
So no, no I would not.

Douglas
2008-04-03, 05:20 PM
In your opinion what calling or summoning spells should reliably be able to call a Gith with a Silver Sword or summon a Silver Sword in game?
Gate, provided you know the name of a specific Githyanki who has a Silver Sword. Only their higher-level (the MM says 9+) warriors have such weapons, and you're generally not going to get one of those if you just Gate in a generic Githyanki.


Would you allow a Planetar or a Solar or a Titan to break the astral cord with their designated weapons?
No. Githyanki Silver Swords are specifically noted as being able to cut silver cords. The normal weapons of Planetars, Solars, and Titans are not so noted.

If you want to cut a silver cord, you either need to research a custom spell to do the job or you need to obtain a Githyanki Silver Sword. Obtaining such a sword should be a reasonably doable quest for a party high enough level to face a 17+ level wizard, and people stealing one happens often enough that the Githyanki have an organization specifically devoted to hunting down the thieves and retrieving the swords. Given that their ability to sever silver cords is their only especially noteworthy quality, a theft frequency that high pretty strongly implies that almost nothing else can do the trick - certainly not a spell well known enough to be in the core sor/wiz list.

Aquillion
2008-04-03, 05:29 PM
Sure. You can gate a Gith in if you want. And if you wanted to design your own spell to defeat Astral Projection I would allow it.Strictly speaking, Planar Binding would work, too, although it's considerably more risky, especially since any Gith who has one of those swords is likely to be fairly powerful and important. Also, I don't think you could just specify "a Gith with one of those special silver swords" to summon (and very few do)... you'd need to know the name of a specific Gith who has one, which introduces even more problems.

But in either case, it's not a very good idea to call their attention and make enemies out of them if you ever intend to use Astral Projection yourself... well, make them hate you specifically more than they hate all other races in general, anyway. Given the nature and history of the Gith race, the individual you summon is probably going to be angrier than it is possible for us to express at being forcibly summoned by you as if they were a slave. And given that silver swords are only given to important Gith, their disappearance is going to be noticed even if you kill them afterwards (which you damn well should, since -- while I usually say that this is a bit of a cop-out to try and balance those spells -- in this case it would make perfect sense for the Gith you 'enslaved' to go on an insane rampage and devote all their energy to hunting you down and killing you.) If any other Gith find out what happened, they would probably react the same way... and the silver sword is going to be tracked down no matter what else happens. Those things are rare and important.

In that respect Planar Binding may be slightly less dangerous than Gate (Gate literally enslaves the entity you name for the duration, which will without exception earn you the eternal hatred of any Gith who finds out about it. Planar Binding isn't likely to be taken any better, but at least with that you negotiate a bit... although any negotiations to try and get servitude out of a Gith after forcibly summoning them are probably going to go badly. Actually, come to think of it, with that in mind I doubt you could ever get Planar Binding to work unless you just kill them and take their sword, which has its own problems.)

And come to think of it, it is entirely possible that some Gith do slash any silver cords they come across without a moment's thought. They're a pretty nasty bunch.


Would you allow a Planetar or a Solar or a Titan to break the astral cord with their designated weapons?No. Silver swords are among the most valuable and distinctive things the Gith have. I don't think very many other non-unique weapons capable of cutting silver cords exist.

RukiTanuki
2008-04-03, 06:58 PM
Okay, I'm going to tiptoe, duck, and dodge around the mud here to throw in my two cents.

A few things stand out when I read Astral Projection:
* Your body (B) stays put, you project onto Astral (A), and a cord connects the two (c).
B--c--A
* If you go from Astral to another plane, a new body is created, and the cord shifts over to the new body(b) (making an old-body-new-body connection).
B--c--b
*If the new body is killed(X), the cord simply plugs back into your original body.
B--c--X becomes B (back to you)
* It looks like your spirit can move along the chain created by the silvery cord. Cutting the cord while projected kills you because your spirit (extended somewhere past the cut) can't return via the now-severed cord to your body.
B-- --b becomes B (disconnect) b --> death
* I find it very reasonable to conclude that any effect that removes your new material body from existence results in the same events as if the new material body was killed (particularly if it were disintegrated). :smallwink:
B--c-- becomes B

It appears that it's not an act of destruction that matters; it's the interrupt between spirit and body. The cord is the connecting point, the existing rules about the death of the new body show that the spirit can "retreat" to the Cord if the body isn't usable. Given this, the disappearance of the body via an AMF should result in events very similar to death, or the body's destruction.

For one to argue for the death of the caster, one would have to make a strong case that the cord has a physical presence on the Material Plane, and that the cord itself is directly affected by an AMF. I'd have trouble supporting this theory myself; hence, I am reluctant to do so. Furthermore, I'd theorize that even in such a case, as the cord will return whenever the AMF is removed, the caster is no more killed than an incorporeal being who can be affected by an AMF. I'd be comfortable ruling in my campaign that while an AP'd caster in an AMF may wink out, they'd return (or at least have the option to return to their original body) as soon as the AMF effect ended.

There we go. And I didn't make one ad hominem attack to boot! :smallbiggrin: