Swordsage

[ladditude]

Alright, so I'm trying to build a good Setting Sun Swordsage for an upcoming campaign. We are level 5 and pretty much anything is allowed.

My first idea was a Goliath because of Powerful Build. But I wouldn't have much AC. As in Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10. With Chain Shirt that would put me at around 20 AC. Or I could go with Str 22, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10 and sneak around and just try to destroy things as fast as possible. This build with Improved Trip would give me a ridiculous +18 Trip modifier when using Setting Sun maneuvers.

My DM said that I would kind of be a one-trick monkey. He suggested doing a Halfling. However, small creatures get a penalty to Trip, and there is nothing that I could find in ToB to negate that.

So, any suggestions.

BTW, I have 3 feats to work with, and basically anything goes.

[Stycotl]

i actually do like small creatures for swordsage. favorite is tasloi. they can climb like crazy, which makes certain skill checks easier (jump, hide, probably others under the right circumstances), and gives an ac bonus. i've been wondering about a feat that would negate the size penalty to trip/grapple/etc. i wonder if there is already one out there. if not, i may just have to make one.

[Reel On, Love]

i actually do like small creatures for swordsage. favorite is tasloi. they can climb like crazy, which makes certain skill checks easier (jump, hide, probably others under the right circumstances), and gives an ac bonus. i've been wondering about a feat that would negate the size penalty to trip/grapple/etc. i wonder if there is already one out there. if not, i may just have to make one.

The problem with Small swordsages for Setting Sun is that you can only trip creatures one size larger than you.
So no throwing Large+ enemies--which is most of them, unless you're in a mostly-humanoid-enemies campaign.

[skywalker]

I personally think your DM is overly concerned with something some people call "roleplaying," or possibly "uniqueness." As in: "Oh, a halfling that trips people, and throws them around, that's clever." But it's not really.

Small races are good for casters, and that's pretty much it. Melee fighters especially do NOT need strength penalties.

I've actually played a swordsage, at level 5 as luck would have it.

Be prepared to kick ass, first of all.

Second, I recommend generalizing, I'm not sure how optimal it will be, but it's fun to have a multitude of different options, IMO. My favorite school is Diamond Mind, the strike that does a concentration check as damage rocks, and was a mainstay. I'd say, just don't overload to Setting Sun, because your DM is partially right, there are some situations where you can't trip things, like large(or larger) monsters.

I would seriously consider Diamond Mind(and also Tiger Claw) if I were you.

EDIT: Reel, does that cloak help you ninja unwitting posters?

[GammaPaladin]

I'd actually suggest Half-Ogre. Only a +2 LA, and makes you large (Not just powerful build, like a goliath, but an honest to gosh large creature with a 10 foot reach (20 with reach weapon) and everything.

For a setting sun swordsage, this is a good one, IMO. Also has a small natural armor bonus to AC, among other things.

If you can work in even a single level of Psychic Warrior you can use expansion a couple times a day to grow to Huge (Since you're already large).

[Darrin]

My DM said that I would kind of be a one-trick monkey. He suggested doing a Halfling. However, small creatures get a penalty to Trip, and there is nothing that I could find in ToB to negate that.


Some ideas for boosting your trip checks:

1) Pebble Underfoot. Originally in Dragon #279, reprinted in the Dragon Compendium. +4 when tripping an opponent at least two size categories larger than you.

Now, this feat was originally written for 3.0, and I assume you could trip larger creatures back then... but the Dragon Compendium is 3.5 material, and the text is identical, so the editors either missed the size problem with tripping, or you could argue that this feat allows you to trip creatures that are two sizes larger than you. Run it by your DM and see how he feels about it.

2) Jotunbrud. Races of Faerun, p. 166. Human-only and FR-specific... see if your DM could rework this for Halflings.

3) Giantbane. Complete Warrior, p. 111. Probably more amusing than useful, although the Climb Aboard option offers a very nice -4 attack penalty to your target with no real disadvantages.

4) Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets. Magic of Incarnum, p. 78. Okay, so the whole soulmeld thing is a bit wonky, but for one feat you can get a +2 on all strength-based checks (but not skill checks), which would include trip attacks. You can also pick up the Bonus Essentia feat to pump this up to +4, and Open Least Chakra would increase your essentia and bind this soulmeld to your hands for a damage bonus on unarmed attacks and free Improved Unarmed Strike.

5) Belt of Growth. MIC p. 73. 3000 GP. Actually not worth the gold, since it only works 1/day. You could make a command-word activated Enlarge Person item with unlimited uses (1 minute duration) for 1800 GP.

[GammaPaladin]

But, if your DM is allowing you to make custom magic items by the DMG formula, consider the Giant Size spell instead ;)

[elliott20]

I'm of the opinion that as a swordsage, you shouldn't be in shortage of maneuvers that you can ONLY do setting sun. while I can understand picking a race for the mechanical bonuses, to me that's just not very fun. I'd say go with whatever you feel is appropriate for your character concept rather than pick based on the bonus. Your swordsage, regardless of how you build it, is going to have room to wiggle and make him work. Of course, this would require that you be flexible about it.

[GammaPaladin]

Alternatively, ask your DM if you can ignore the trip size restriction when using Setting Sun maneuvers. It kind of does suck to have more or less an entire discipline rendered useless just because your opponent is big. Especially one that supposedly focuses on defeating larger, more powerful opponents.

And yeah, you can diversify, but what if his concept is tied to the Setting Sun school... He wants to play an aikido type of fighter, or something of that nature?

[elliott20]

true, it is a shame at that.

If he really wants, maybe he can simply negotiate with his GM that for the price of say, a feat or something, he waves the restrictions if his THAT adamant about it. In aikido and many softer grappling martial arts, the theory is actually that your size, once past a certain level of skill, matters very little as you learn to use your opponent's strength against them anyway.

[Artanis]

And yeah, you can diversify, but what if his concept is tied to the Setting Sun school... He wants to play an aikido type of fighter, or something of that nature?
Well, if nothing else, the Swordsage gets so d*** many maneuvers that he probably can't help diversifying whether he likes it or not. Might as well plan ahead and try to get maneuvers from other disciplines that are useful and/or in-character.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Where does it say that you can only throw enemies only one size category larger than you? The descriptions of the maneuvers such as Mighty Throw don't mention any size limitations, at least none that I've noticed. Or is the size limit because the attack is 'treated like a trip attempt?' Can anyone point out where the size limit is coming from?

[GammaPaladin]

Well, if nothing else, the Swordsage gets so d*** many maneuvers that he probably can't help diversifying whether he likes it or not. Might as well plan ahead and try to get maneuvers from other disciplines that are useful and/or in-character.
Again, this is true. A swordsage has to pick something on the order of 7 level 1 maneuvers, IIRC. There are no more than 3 in any one discipline, again IIRC.

That said, if you were really wanting one discipline to be your signature, it still sucks that you lose it against probably half the encounters you're fighting (More, if you're a halfling).

Which is why I personally would rule that you can use the SS throws against anyone, regardless of size, despite CustServ's ruling to the contrary (It's kind of a debatable point by RAW, since while the maneuver calls for a trip check, it's not actually a trip. So while you can't trip a creature more than one size category higher, there's nothing RAW that says you can't throw them, just because the maneuver is resolved with a trip check, IMHO.

And CustServ rulings aren't binding, so it's basically the GM's choice (It always is, but I mean, CustServ can never be seen as anything more than a suggestion/guideline, there's no actual authoritative weight behind it, so you can ignore them without invoking rule zero).


Where does it say that you can only throw enemies only one size category larger than you? The descriptions of the maneuvers such as Mighty Throw don't mention any size limitations, at least none that I've noticed. Or is the size limit because the attack is 'treated like a trip attempt?' Can anyone point out where the size limit is coming from?
It comes from the "resolve the throw as a trip attempt" wording. Unfortunately, someone asked CustServ to clarify, and they ruled that it does not work against creatures more than one size larger than you. This is a very subjective ruling however, and one I would argue CustServ is wrong about.

[elliott20]

I would be inclined to agree with GammaPaladin on that. I might levy a heavy penalty or something, but to outright rule it out? nah.

[GammaPaladin]

There's a penalty inherent to the trip mechanic: A creature gets a +4 on the trip check roll for every size category above medium, and that includes the roll to resist being tripped.

So if you're trying to trip a colossal creature, for instance, you're up against a +16 modifier.

Granted, if you're a race with Powerful Build, and you've taken Improved Trip, and have a Sweeping enchantment on your weapon, and use Mighty Throw, you have +14 to your roll... But that's a LOT of work and specialization, so I don't see a problem with it.

[elliott20]

I guess the designers just thought that it would be ridiculous for someone who is tiny to out wrestle a creature that is several times larger than itself.

but the principles of setting sun (derived from the fluff) clearly implies that this is a limitation that the school strives to overcome, so I see no reason at all why that rule should still apply.

[GammaPaladin]

Well, as I said, we have no clear indication of the designers' intent. CustServ rarely consults with the designers when making rulings.

[Darrin]

Argh... I forgot two feats that will probably help a lot better than the ones I mentioned earlier:

6) Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. Races of the Wild, pp. 152-153. Available at ECL 7 (requires Tumble 10). Underfoot Combat allows you to move into a square occupied by a foe two size categories larger without any AoO. You gain soft cover (+4 to AC). Confound the Big Folk is a tactical feat that on the round after you move into an occupied square, you can treat the target as flat-footed for all your attacks or make one trip attempt that: a) does not provoke an AoO, b) you can use either Dex or Str for the check, c) opponent does not get to add his size bonus, and d) does not get a trip attempt if you fail. It also works with Improved Trip.

The neat thing is it doesn't specify that you have to use a move action to use either of these feats. You could use a 5' step or Sudden Leap. Charge probably wouldn't work, since you have to stop at the first square where you can attack your opponent.

It's not clear to me if you can combine multiple maneuvers into the same attack... such as Knee-Striker + Unsteady Footing, which would allow you to treat the target as flat-footed for your trip attempt. It's also not clear if you remain in the same square and your opponent doesn't move, can you still use Knee-Striker and Unsteady Footing without moving out from under your opponent or moving to another occupied square.

Knee-Striker should work with any Setting Sun throw. Unsteady Footing wouldn't.

[Artanis]

I guess the designers just thought that it would be ridiculous for someone who is tiny to out wrestle a creature that is several times larger than itself.
It worked on AT-ATs, didn't it? :smalltongue:

[Talya]

Goliath just might be my favorite non-human race...fluff-wise, stat-wise, and overall fun-wise. Go for goliath.

[Zenos]

Someone should homebrew a Setting Sun stance that takes away a larger opponent's size modifier to grapple/trip/etc.

[FinalJustice]

6) Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. Races of the Wild, pp. 152-153. Available at ECL 7 (requires Tumble 10). Underfoot Combat allows you to move into a square occupied by a foe two size categories larger without any AoO. You gain soft cover (+4 to AC). Confound the Big Folk is a tactical feat that on the round after you move into an occupied square, you can treat the target as flat-footed for all your attacks or make one trip attempt that: a) does not provoke an AoO, b) you can use either Dex or Str for the check, c) opponent does not get to add his size bonus, and d) does not get a trip attempt if you fail. It also works with Improved Trip.


I suppose Underfoot Combat is a pre-req for Confound the Big Folk, am I right? Otherwise, I guess he could use Wolf Climbs the Mountain to do something similar (not with my books here, can't check).

[skywalker]

At level one, a swordsage knows 6 maneuvers, all of which must be level 1. At level 4, he gets to trade out a maneuver if he so chooses, and at level 5, a swordsage knows 10 maneuvers total.

Wolf Climbs the Mountain is a level 6 maneuver(maneuver levels correspond to spell levels) so that's not really on the menu at the moment, anyway.

My experience from playing a human swordsage was, setting sun maneuvers were way too situational to build an entire character concept around. Maybe that's just me and my DM, your mileage may vary.

[ladditude]

I really want to just throw stuff, but I am going to be taking stuff from the other schools. Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand are especially appealing right now.

My DM has agreed to change Giant Killing Stance to Giant Throwing Stance, which negates any size bonuses to Trip, Grapple, etc. and allows one to Trip/Grapple anyone up to 3 sizes larger than oneself. So is there anyway to negate size penalties/take Improved Trip twice?

[Eldariel]

There's a regional feat in Unapproachable East called 'Wolf Berserker', which stacks with Improved Trip for +4 to Trip. Of course, it requires you to have at least one level of Barbarian (picking up Pounce or Fast Movement is handy anyways though, and level 2 Wolf-totem Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana) can pick up Improved Trip without meeting the prerequisites - meaning you don't need 13 Int for Combat Expertise) and it's regional, so it may be hard to get accepted in a generic game, but it's awesome. Anyways, two levels of Barbarian (Wolf-totem) and Wolf Berserker would net you +8 to Trips along with Rage-like ability (Ferocity is probably the best to you for the Dex-bonus along with Initiative-upgrade). Then you'll just have to figure out if you want to trade Fast Movement for Pounce and you're set.

That's all I can think of in that regard though. Initiate of Kord gets +4 too, but that requires worshipping Kord and having access to level 2 Divine spells, so meh. I'd probably get Confound the Big Folk anyways, that feat is handy.

[FinalJustice]

Wolf Climbs the Mountain is a level 6 maneuver(maneuver levels correspond to spell levels) so that's not really on the menu at the moment, anyway.

That will teach me a lesson about checking the sources before posting, I thought it was a 4th level maneuver, sorry.

[GammaPaladin]

Argh... I forgot two feats that will probably help a lot better than the ones I mentioned earlier:

6) Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. Races of the Wild, pp. 152-153. Available at ECL 7 (requires Tumble 10). Underfoot Combat allows you to move into a square occupied by a foe two size categories larger without any AoO. You gain soft cover (+4 to AC). Confound the Big Folk is a tactical feat that on the round after you move into an occupied square, you can treat the target as flat-footed for all your attacks or make one trip attempt that: a) does not provoke an AoO, b) you can use either Dex or Str for the check, c) opponent does not get to add his size bonus, and d) does not get a trip attempt if you fail. It also works with Improved Trip.

The neat thing is it doesn't specify that you have to use a move action to use either of these feats. You could use a 5' step or Sudden Leap. Charge probably wouldn't work, since you have to stop at the first square where you can attack your opponent.

It's not clear to me if you can combine multiple maneuvers into the same attack... such as Knee-Striker + Unsteady Footing, which would allow you to treat the target as flat-footed for your trip attempt. It's also not clear if you remain in the same square and your opponent doesn't move, can you still use Knee-Striker and Unsteady Footing without moving out from under your opponent or moving to another occupied square.

Knee-Striker should work with any Setting Sun throw. Unsteady Footing wouldn't.
Wow, that's awesome... Confound The Big Folk explicitly allows you to make trip attempts against foes of any size. The description requires that you be in the space of a creature at least 2 sizes bigger than you, and then says that you may make a trip attempt against it.

That's a good feat.

Sadly, it wouldn't work in combination with a Setting Sun throw if your DM is the type to rule that you can't use them against 2+ larger creatures... But still, good feat.

What book are Knee Striker and Unsteady Footing from?

[Darrin]

What book are Knee Striker and Unsteady Footing from?

Those are tactical maneuvers available as part of the Confound the Big Folk feat. So, Races of the Wild, p. 153.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Underfoot_Combat,RW

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Confound_The_Big_Folk,RW