Why the Ambiguity about Sabine?

[Kekken]

Really, why is everyone so confused about what Sabine is? She has bat-like wings, horns, and a spiky tail. That's a succubus. If she was an erinyes, she'd have angelic wings (though they'd probably be dark red or something to indicate fiendish nature).

[jamroar]

Really, why is everyone so confused about what Sabine is? She has bat-like wings, horns, and a spiky tail. That's a succubus. If she was an erinyes, she'd have angelic wings (though they'd probably be dark red or something to indicate fiendish nature).

Well, maybe she's from 4th ed. where succubi are devils! Blasted changing cosmology...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Uh, maybe the fact that she's lawful? As in, an actual RAW trait, not a description. Just a thought.

[Kekken]

Uh, maybe the fact that she's lawful? As in, an actual RAW trait, not a description. Just a thought.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that. If you can link a comic that gives absolute proof of her being lawful (such as someone using a detect law), then I admit my mistake.

[Felixaar]

Sabine's lawful? I seem to remember her busting too guilty convicts out of jail. Nale's lawful (not that that stopped him murdering people in cliffport) but I dont get how Sabine is.

[Tempest Fennac]

Being lawful doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the law: it's more to do with liking order and being consistant if I remember correctly. I don't think she's exactly Lawful, though (I had her as NE), but her loyalty to Nale could be classed as Lawful behaviour.

[Kekken]

Her loyalty to Nale could also be that she likes, even (dare I say it), loves him.

Loyalty goes beyond Law or Chaos. At times (like this) it can even go beyond good or evil.

[Tempest Fennac]

Good point (I only mentioned that because it's the only example of remotely Lawful behaviour I've seen from Sabine).

[Morty]

Why the ambiguity about Sabine's type? Because the author wants it to be that way so it might function as a running gag. Fairly simple.

[Kekken]

I see no indication that the ambuiguity of what she is is a running gag.

If it was, we would have some calling her a succubus, others an erinyes, and others just a fiend.

We know that the gender of V is a running gag, as in more than one case, characters have tried to guess its gender.

There has been nothing like this with Sabine...

[Ghastly Epigram]

I see no indication that the ambuiguity of what she is is a running gag.

If it was, we would have some calling her a succubus, others an erinyes, and others just a fiend.

We know that the gender of V is a running gag, as in more than one case, characters have tried to guess its gender.

There has been nothing like this with Sabine...

I beg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) to differ. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)

[Morty]

I see no indication that the ambuiguity of what she is is a running gag.

If it was, we would have some calling her a succubus, others an erinyes, and others just a fiend.

We know that the gender of V is a running gag, as in more than one case, characters have tried to guess its gender.

There has been nothing like this with Sabine...

Apart from the strips Ghastly Epigram already linked to, we have this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) one. There might be more that I don't remember right now.

[Kekken]

Okay, I admit I was wrong about the ambiguity thing, but, unlike with V, rich is giving us plenty of clues to her being a succubus. Besides the appearance, she also drains energy several times, a power possessed by succubi, but not erinyes. She also uses an alterself like power, another ability not possessed by the erinyes (at least 3.5 version).

We never see her using any of the erinyes powers, such as the very useful true seeing at will or the entangle ability.

[FujinAkari]

The confusion comes from several factors:

- The ambiguity between demon or devil
- Sabine's seeming willingness to engage in physical combat, which is not a characteristic of Succubi
- Sabine's ability to open a Gate to Hell, which Succubi cannot do (but Erinyes can!)
- Sabine's going to Nale on the orders of her superiors, which seems a lawful institution, rather than a Succubus' chaotic one.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm guessing she's a homebrew variant (Goblins and Slyths are different in Order of the Stick compared with in stanard D&D).

[_Puppetmaster_]

I think she is just a homebrew fiend.

She isn't an Erinyes, because she has the energy drain ability. But she isn't a succubus, because her energy drain would then only function in a grapple.

[bluish_wolf]

I think she is just a homebrew fiend.

She isn't an Erinyes, because she has the energy drain ability. But she isn't a succubus, because her energy drain would then only function in a grapple.

Did she ever actually pull an energy drain off?

[Tempest Fennac]

Yes. She did it to Durkon during the first fight between the Order and the LG (it looked more like Str drain then anything, though), and she did it to Roy and Haley at various points. I'll need to check, but I think she was grappling whenever she did it.


EDIT: It was a touch attack when she did it to Durkon.

[Chronos]

For the ambiguity, also add Julia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html) in the first panel: "And either a demon or a devil, I'm not sure which".

[boomwolf]

Sabine is NOT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) lawful.

"Honey, she snapped your neck!"
"...I got better."

Thats some heavy chaotic short-sighted way of thinking...


But i think the main problem is there is no real definition of lawful and chaotic...so it's each man to himself.

And considering sabine's ability to use both scubbi and erinyes abilities, she is a half-scubbi half-erinyes.

Comon, if humans and dragons are genetically OK, so scubbi and erinyes must be.

[Kekken]

Um, unless my copy of the 3.5 MM is wrong, Erinyes can't open gates either, so that points to neither succubus or erinyes for our Sabine.

I'm starting to think she was a succubus (hence the appearance), who has "mutated" or perhaps "advanced" into something unique.

[Querzis]

Well as far as I'm concerned the main problem I have with Sabine is that she definitly seems NE and she doesnt have the right personnality to be Lawfull or chaotic. She never did anything especially Chaotic or Lawfull and she just doesnt have the right personnality to be Lawfull or chaotic. She cant really be a full succubus either and shes definitly not an erinyes. Shes a homebrew monster or some kind of mutant succubus or Erinyes. Since shes Haley opposite and so many people think Haley is half-celestial, Sabine could also simply have humans blood.

[Kish]

so many people think Haley is half-celestial
I think "many" is pushing it a great deal. I also have to point out that using "Haley is her opposite" as evidence for Sabine being part human is recursion, since the only "evidence" of Haley being part celestial is that Sabine is her opposite.

[Dohmaker]

Sabine isn't a devil or a demon. she's a fiend!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html

[Firestar27]

Sabine is NOT (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) lawful.

"Honey, she snapped your neck!"
"...I got better."

Thats some heavy chaotic short-sighted way of thinking...


But i think the main problem is there is no real definition of lawful and chaotic...so it's each man to himself.

And considering sabine's ability to use both scubbi and erinyes abilities, she is a half-scubbi half-erinyes.

Comon, if humans and dragons are genetically OK, so scubbi and erinyes must be.

Short sighted thinking isn't chaotic. Lawful can also be short sighted. You decide to go with a strict unchanging plan because it has always worked without taking the time to look at the situation and pick a different plan that has always worked.

[hamishspence]

Half fiend would be a bit implausible, since they do not have DR/exotic metal

One devil exists thats brownish, pointy tail (forked not spiked) bat winged, horned, looks like attractive woman otherwise (Glasya, Lady of the Sixth Hell)
Unfortunately as statted out in Fiendish Codex 2, she would crush any of the Order in a fight.

The same would apply to Malcathet, the uber-succubus.

Basically, the problem is anything that can cast gate tends to be much more powerful than Sabine appears to be.

On the other hand, it could be a cool looking version of plane shifting. She does get a lift back from another fiend, black with yellow eyes.

[†Seer†]

Random thought... do we even know that's her true form? If she can alter-self, it's possible she likes that form more than others (or Nale does). Granted this is a stretch but I like bringing new aspects to convo's.
Just look for a shapechanger that has a weakness to...iron or steel was it? (Haley's arrows, can't remember) Anyway, may fit. If not, oh wells.

[Kish]

Sabine isn't a devil or a demon. she's a fiend!
And "fiend," in D&D, is a generic term for lower planar natives, including both demons and devils.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I'm not sure why no one's bothered to link to the SRD, so I will:

Succubus: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus)

Erinyes: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes)

So let's break it down:
Succubus: Claw Attack, Energy Drain, DR10/Cold Iron or Good, Claw Attack

Succubi are not warriors. They flee combat whenever they can. If forced to fight, they can attack with their claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html), but they prefer to turn foes against one another. Succubi use their change shape ability to assume humanoid guise, and can maintain this deception indefinitely...

As opposed to

Erinyes: Longsword, or Flaming Composite Longbow, or Rope. DR5/Good

Erinyes prefer to engage in combat from a distance. They use charm monster to distract or disorganize their opponents, then rain down fiery arrows from above.

Now before you jump all over the Succubi are not warriors, remember that individuals vary. Afterall, isn't Belkar supposed to be jolly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)? :smallbiggrin:

I've never seen Sabine use a longsword, long bow or rope (in combat), but I have seen her use claws and energy drain. And since Erinyes are not weak to either Cold Iron OR Silver, neither of Haley's special arrows should have hurt her, unless someone added Good to either/both.

What other monster/creature besides a succubus fits Sabine's discription? None of the other demons or devils listed in the SRD seem to fit, but I might have missed something.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

I believe one WotC book contains a devil that is essentially a lawful succubus. It's a waste of space, but that doesn't mean she couldn't be one.

[Alex Warlorn]

I still think her conflicting traits point to her being a daemon or a demon/devil hybrid.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I still think her conflicting traits point to her being a daemon or a demon/devil hybrid.

Um, what conflicts, and if a daemon, what kind?

If a hybrid, of which two (or more) types?

I'd like to hear, or even better yet see, some links to what you or any of the other "She's not a succubus" posters actually think she is.

I included links to both the succubus and the erinyes in my earlier post. Sabine is at least 90% of the description of a succubus, and maybe about 5%erinyes. Less for anything else, except possibly pit fiend...

But Sabine REALLY doesn't look 12 feet tall, 800 pounds, or wreathed in flames. :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

I think "many" is pushing it a great deal. I also have to point out that using "Haley is her opposite" as evidence for Sabine being part human is recursion, since the only "evidence" of Haley being part celestial is that Sabine is her opposite.Well, that's not the only evidence. There's also the fact that one of the celestials in Xykon's old tower looked a lot like Haley, and she told Elan (in cipher) "I may not be exactly what you might call...", which some folks think finishes with "human". It would also explain why she uses a longbow instead of a shortbow, given that Martial Weapon Proficiency would be a waste of a feat for a rogue, but outsiders get all martial weapons for free. But yeah, the evidence is pretty thin.

Surfing Half-Orc, she seems to fit about 50% with the fundamental nature of a succubus. She's Evil, but probably not Chaotic. The alignment of an outsider with an alignment subtype is a very fundamental aspect of its nature.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I don't see where she's not chaotic. Chaotic doen't mean crazy, or unable to work as part of an organization. Sure, she reports to her Evil Overlords, just as would a low ranking orc would report to the orc chieftan. But she's looking for that bonus, and weekend get away of a chaotic, not the structured pay scale with set benefits and scheduled performance reviews of a lawful. She's an independant operator working on a freelance project, not an assigned member of a team making sure the new coversheets are on all the TPS reports. Or attending the daily staffing meeting with donuts and a set agenda. :smallbiggrin:

Chaotic just means she's a bit self centered, and we've seen her do that. Nale was explaining part of his "intricate" plan, but she got distracted at the word "three-way."

She's got the wings, horns, tail, Energy Drain, claws, shapeshift, sexy/trampy thing going. She's a succubus to me, until someone can show me a solid list of reasons why she isn't.

This isn't a math theorum where one exception disproves... She's a individual, with all the individual variation that comes from being an individual.

[Spiky]

Well, that's not the only evidence. There's also the fact that one of the celestials in Xykon's old tower looked a lot like Haley, and she told Elan (in cipher) "I may not be exactly what you might call...", which some folks think finishes with "human". It would also explain why she uses a longbow instead of a shortbow, given that Martial Weapon Proficiency would be a waste of a feat for a rogue, but outsiders get all martial weapons for free. But yeah, the evidence is pretty thin.


None of this is evidence. I think that's the point some try to make.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I think people are taking this way to seriously. As already stated, it's a running gag. I own the MM, several editions, in fact, but that doesn't mean I can name off the top of my head what the differences are between an Erinyes and a Succubus. That's where the joke comes in, and probably why 4e combines them into one being.

Just have fun with it and don't think about it too much. Thinking about jokes too thoroughly tends to ruin them. It's like trying to argue that Elan or Belkar aren't consistent throughout the strip. Who cares as long as they're humorous?

[Morgan Wick]

How is Sabine Haley's opposite?

"Haley, I am your mother!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LukeIAmYourFather)

Or maybe just "Haley, I am your half-sister!"

[NapkinRing]

Well I don't think Nale knows whether Sabine is a demon or a devil.
As shown in this comic:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html
This has probably come up before though...

[brionl]

One more thing, a Succubus is only CR7. We know that Sabine can put up a good fight against the level 12-13 OOTS members, so she's been advanced almost double a standard Succubus HD. As you add HD, you should add feats, and abilities. Most of the other 12 HD demons can gate and/or summon other demons so it's pretty natural to add that in.

[lord_khaine]

One more thing, a Succubus is only CR7. We know that Sabine can put up a good fight against the level 12-13 OOTS members, so she's been advanced almost double a standard Succubus HD. As you add HD, you should add feats, and abilities. Most of the other 12 HD demons can gate and/or summon other demons so it's pretty natural to add that in.

No, when you advance creatures by HD they dont get other fancy powers as well, though it is a possibility that sabine has advanced in a class instead.

So if we ignore the aligment parts, that cant really be argued properly because people disagree over whats chaotic and lawfull behavior, then it would seem sabine fits within 90% of the succubus entry in the mm.

Also i belive the main reason why she has been consideret lawful is that her overlords assignet her to keep an eye on Nale, who are clearly LE, and it assumed that the evil overlords who wantet nale is also LE themself, and employ LE fiends.

Of course, it would make a lot more sense if there wasnt any blood war in the OOTS'verse

[DeadmanXI]

No, when you advance creatures by HD they dont get other fancy powers as well, though it is a possibility that sabine has advanced in a class instead.

Actually, Rich has explicitly stated she's got levels of Rogue, so we know she's advanced in a class.

[Serpentine]

Regarding the comics posted before, Haley's a Rogue. There's no reason for her to have any cross-class ranks in Knowledge (planes). How could she possibly have any idea what Sabine is? She's doing well just to know "fiend". The blueprint bit, well, that was just a reference to the previous joke.
Yeah... I don't really see how anyone could think she's not a succubus :smallconfused:

[Chronos]

Regarding the comics posted before, Haley's a Rogue. There's no reason for her to have any cross-class ranks in Knowledge (planes).Yeah, and Julia's a wizard, with all Knowledge skills as class skills, and she'd been held hostage by the Guild for weeks, and she still didn't know.

[Renegade Paladin]

I think she's not a succubus, mainly because I'm convinced she's a lilitu. :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Yeah, and Julia's a wizard, with all Knowledge skills as class skills, and she'd been held hostage by the Guild for weeks, and she still didn't know.1. Who's to say she would've taken ranks in that Knowledge anyway? There's plenty of others, often more useful, for a wizard to take.
2. She's reasonably low level, isn't she? Who's to say that she'd even have enough ranks to get it right?
Still haven't seen anything to suggest that Sabine's species is anything other than Glaringly Obvious, With Internal Confusion For Humour.
That said, there's always the possibility that she is something else, that Rich eventually intends to have some great confusing reveal. If that happens, I'll still be taken pretty much by surprise, cuz any foreshadowing is pretty slight.