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View Full Version : Denying Stance Ninja; relatively hot



Djibriel
2008-04-02, 05:41 AM
I'm well aware that the general opinion on Monks and Ninjas are respectively 'Ugh' and 'Double Ugh', but here's a build I'd like to play. It strikes me as fun enough; it can contribute in the party and is fairly effective at this level. I would like an opinion on weak spots, though, and since the combo is without a doubt played often I'm sure there's something to say :smallsmile:

Denying Stance Monk 2 (UA)/Ninja 2, Frail (Flaw), Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Deadly Defense, Denying Stance dictates Combat Reflexes and Improved Grapple, Str. 10, Dex. 16, Con. 10, Int. 14, Wis. 14, Cha. 10

So normally her AC is 17. But she'll attack by accepting a -2 on to hit for +2 AC and an extra 1d6 damage due to Deadly Defense. Should she want to, she can crank up her AC to 23 and then take a move action or remain in place and fight for a -7 to hit but a +8 on her AC, resulting in 25 AC. All this without armor check penalties since, hey, Ninja/Monk. Obviously she won't be able to land a hit this way (unless natural 20, but that goes for the opponent as well), but it's just in case she wants to remain untouchable. But it's either +7 2d6 Sudden Strike 3/day or +3 2d6 with an AC of 19. Not bad for a lvl 4.

She can reach any opponent due to her great tactical movement skills, is always armed with the most versatile weapons in the world and can turn invisible as a free action. In addition, she's the only skill monkey of the party.

Heh. I get why Monks and Ninjas suck, but I really like this build. I'd love critique, since I really want this concept to work without having to resort to unarmed Swordsage.

For those interested, it's a Longstride Shifter in Eberron. I can take Monastic Training at later level to get back to Monk levels should I so desire and I'm sure I can work something out with the Exp. penalty.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-02, 05:50 AM
Things you should try to convince your DM to allow with this plan (which is sub-par, so if you have optimizers in your group, it'll show).

*Intuitive Attack from Book of Exalted Deeds. This lets you focus on wisdom, by giving wisdom to hit.

*Fractional BAB from UA. This will take away some of the suck of mulitclassing 3/4 BAB classes.

*Hand-waving multiclassing restrictions. Burning a feat to multiclass suck and meh, well, sucks.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-02, 06:09 AM
if your attacks are not going to hit any intelligent foes will realise that and walk straight past you, smashing your more fragile friends in the face instead.

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 06:18 AM
Is Intuitive Attack an Exalted Feat? Do I need to meet special prereqs for it? The fractional BAB is a great idea; since I don't plan to stray outside of both classes, it'd be best to just pick the BAB out based on my character level, since Monk and Ninja share the BAB table anyway.

That's the thing with defensive builds, isn't it? However, with Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple and superior land speed, I have about all I can get to prevent it. Are intelligent foes really going to leave me (AaO) to get flanked next round? Unintelligent foes won't decide to switch opponents anyway unless they're surrounded from the start.

BlackStaticWolf
2008-04-02, 06:26 AM
Is Intuitive Attack an Exalted Feat? Do I need to meet special prereqs for it?

I believe you have to be good aligned.

playswithfire
2008-04-02, 07:11 AM
Str. 10, Dex. 16, Con. 10, Int. 14, Wis. 14, Cha. 10

So normally her AC is 17.

I see 10 base + 3 dex +2 wis =15 as the AC; where's the last two, as my understanding was that monk and ninja wis to ac don't stack?

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 08:01 AM
Ring of Protection +1, Bracers of Armor +1. Stack like you won't believe.

RTGoodman
2008-04-02, 08:31 AM
The biggest problem I see here is that your AC really isn't that great. I mean, it's okay, but at level 4-5 stuff is pretty easily going to hit AC 17-19. I mean, at that level a melee-based challenge may have a +5-6 BAB, +3-4 for Str, plus Weapon Focus or anything else like that. If you get a chance to go all-out and build up your defenses (Combat Expertise, etc.) it's better, but there are still a lot of things in that CR range that can hit a 25. A CR 4 Dire Lion gets two +13 claw attacks, plus Pounce and Rake, and a lot of CR 8 critters (a possibility for a very difficult encounter) have attack bonuses around +13 to +15, maybe higher.

I'd suggest dropping Cha to an 8 (I don't think you need it for anything), and maybe dropping Int by 1 (you don't need higher than a 13 as a prerequisite for anything, right?) and put all that into Dex/Wis. Then maybe look into an Amulet of Natural Armor - they're not that expensive, and that's another small bonus to AC. After that, just keep pumping Dex and Wis for higher AC. That'd be my suggestion anyway.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-02, 08:58 AM
That's the thing with defensive builds, isn't it? However, with Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple and superior land speed, I have about all I can get to prevent it. Are intelligent foes really going to leave me (AaO) to get flanked next round? Unintelligent foes won't decide to switch opponents anyway unless they're surrounded from the start.

an attack of opportunity that cannot hit can be disregarded. flanking matter little, its impossible to avoid anyway. the main thingyou will be able to stop is killer charges on your weaker members, which is handy.....but most things can do that.
unintelligent foes are rarely a challenge in dnd anyway.

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 09:20 AM
Heh. Dropping Charisma below 10 is a no-go; this group I'm in is roleplay intensive enough to have a history of treating uncharismatic characters like dirt.

AC 17 should rarely, if ever, come into play. It's either being flat-footed or using one of the several methods of improving AC or being invisible alltogether. Single encounters with huge bonuses on attack roles are to be taken down by Druids and PsiWarriors anyway; in the meantime I can either be harder to hit than other characters or temporarily forfeit defense for offense should they need 2d6 in their face.

With Intuitive Strike (which fits the character anyway) and a more logical BAB progression, and rearranging ability scores (Str. 10, Dex. 14, Con. 10, Int. 13, Wis. 18, Cha. 10), I upped my attack role bonus by 2, added a slot in my Ki Pool and increased flat-footed AC. Thanks, guys :smallsmile:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-02, 12:16 PM
I believe you have to be good aligned.

Rather, you have to be Exalted, since it is an Exalted feat. (Also, BAB +1.) If the party has any Evil characters, you won't be able to keep it up. If there are any Neutral characters, you'll have trouble. If there are any lax or wishy-washy Good characters, it still won't be easy.

If Superman is Exalted, then Good is Gorilla Grodd by comparison.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-02, 12:46 PM
Ascetic Stalker's probably worth it even without the multiclass restrictions- it makes Monk and Ninja levels stack for size of Ki pool, unarmed damage and Ki Strike.

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 01:39 PM
Hmm. Exalted sounds like a bother, and unsuited for an Eberron campaign.

I was planning on taking Ascetic Stalker, but have no room for it at the moment. She's only level 4, and we don't level too quickly.

tyckspoon
2008-04-02, 01:44 PM
Ask your DM to waive the Exalted requirement for Intuitive Strike anyway. There's no good reason for it to require that (unlike the ones that do stuff like you make so incredibly holy that your mere presence injures undead and evil outsiders.) Zen Archery and Weapon Finesse don't have bloody stupid requirements like that, and they do the same thing, mechanically speaking.

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 02:13 PM
If a single character could use a single ability modifier for AC, attack roles and class features without drawback of some kind, balance issues come to mind. Then again, it IS a Monk/Ninja...

I'll manage with W. Finesse; I'm already asking my GM to let multiclass restrictions and Exp. penalties slide.

tyckspoon
2008-04-02, 02:20 PM
If a single character could use a single ability modifier for AC, attack roles and class features without drawback of some kind, balance issues come to mind.

Only if the particular class features themselves are unbalanced. Most dextrous-style builds already use Dex for AC, attack bonus (by way of Finesse), and a number of 'class features', although they tend to be skills instead. It'd be bad if you had something like a Wisdom-based full caster who could get Wis to all major abilities (hellooo, Druid.) But even that would be because he'd be getting major bonuses from an attribute that already powers the most powerful system in the game... you're talking about a Monk/Ninja, so no worries about that.

Prometheus
2008-04-02, 03:54 PM
Again, your AC isn't spectacular, if that was intending to be the strong point. However,you do still retain the few things monks and ninjas do well, being sneaky, skillful and fast. In an RP intense group, you'll do fine enough.

MightyIgoo
2008-04-02, 04:44 PM
Why would your gaming group treat uncharismatic characters like dirt? It is my understanding that an ability score of 10 is equal to that of an average human. That is to say, a Charisma of 10 means a character is average, socially. So a Charisma of 9 means a character is somewhat unsociable and not very forceful, personality-wise. Are the other players elitists? Do they regularly make fun of nerds and other socially awkward people? That doesn't sound like something the average lawful-good person would do. I don't see ability score penalties as being anything to be ashamed of.

Djibriel
2008-04-02, 05:15 PM
@Prometheus: I know. As far as I know, there's really no way to become nigh-untouchable without armor. But Combat Expertise lets her avoid blows according to insight; take note that it's an AC ranging from 17 to 25 at my choice. You'll always fight on her terms. It's not that powerful as a whole, but this girl can either take a +9 to hit and strike flatfooted creatures or force 99 % of the CR-appropriate opponents to role a natural 20 or miss.

@Igoo: That's a really interesting point, perhaps for another thread. I've always seen a negative modifier as something both the character and his surroundings are aware of. Weak, slow, frail, stupid, ditzy or awkward is an impression you make with a negative modifier in my eyes, and is probably a source of insecurity of the character in question.

As far Charisma, it's what makes it as important as the other five ability scores even though its a dump stat on paper for most; that's just personal opinion, though. It depends on how you role-play; true-to-life, you may be the best warrior, wizard or basket weaver in the nation but still fail to get actual respect for it if your Charisma is 6.

Person_Man
2008-04-02, 05:38 PM
Strait Ninja is actually quite playable if you have a very small number of combat encounters per game day, or if you have an insanely high Wis (and thus can be invisible or ethereal every round).

Monk/Psychic Warrior is also a popular combo for huge unarmed damage and grapple ability, especially if you can use Eberron splatbooks.

But Ninja/Monk? Your To Hit will be lousy, your damage output will be lousy, your Stunning Fist will be more limited, and you'll never get access to any of the cooler/more powerful high level abilities of either class. All you really get is a few bonus feats, which are fun at low levels, but less important once you hit mid-high levels.

nargbop
2008-04-02, 06:35 PM
Playing a monk/ninja in a non-sneaky manner is downright difficult. If you really want to play this character who gets involved in melee, I would ask DM boons for multiclassing (for instance, evasion should become improved evasion when you get it twice).

Djibriel
2008-04-03, 01:23 AM
3/4 BAB across the board can be boosted by Dex-improving Gloves updates every four levels. Add the +3 from Weapon Finesse and at low levels, it's to hit is really pretty acceptable (doubly so with Ghost Step). Due to Ascetic Stalker later, I won't lose out on unarmed damage at all and Deadly Defense and Sudden Strike help a lot. However, Denying Stance doesn't give you Stunning Fist which is kinda bad.

A Druid it ain't, but as for now she's pretty good at being what I want her to be. Dunno about higher levels, but that's years from now anyway. :smallsmile: