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BRC
2008-04-02, 11:34 AM
Note number one, I have never DM'd DnD, but I have GM'd shadowrun and Paranoia. My group is very casual and laid back, and powergaming is preety much nonexistant, so provided I have alot of leeway in terms of balance, I don't really have to worry about exploits, and provided I make them cinematic and exiting, my group will proably enjoy almost any encounter I throw at them.
Alright, so I thought of a campaign idea that I'm thinking of seeing if my group wants to play with me DMing. This would be an occasional thing (our regular DM already started us on another campaign) And would primarily be low-level.

The Idea: The Players start at third level and are members of a coalition army made up of several different small nations and city states. This army is fighting a horde of goblinoids. The coalition forces are winning, and, though battered and hurt, are not far from winning the battle. The PC's start off in the middle of this battle, isolated from the rest of their force and fighting off some goblins. After they kill goblins for a few rounds they see reinforcements have arrived, the largest nation in the coalition had arrived late to the battle, and brought a massive army. A group of horsemen ride towrds our PC's with a wizard leading them, killing goblins left and right. The horsemen reach the PC's and the wizard casts Cloudkill, killing the PC's (who, being third level don't get a save). The "Reinforcements" start attacking both the coalition forces and the goblinoids, both of which are battered and weakened from the fight.

After the battle ends, the PC's wake up. "But wait BRC, didn't you say they died?", that is correct. They wake up, and are informed that the betrayal was so great that a spirit of vengence was created to avenge it. However, the spirit of vengence can't really do much on it's own, so it picks the PC's as instruments of it's will.

Now, I want the fact that the PC's were brought back to be instruments of vengence to have some mechanical signficance. One idea I had was to make the PC's sentient undead, animated by the spirit of vengence rather than negitive energy. However, if I do that, then the rest of the campaign is fairly limited, you know with the whole rotting thing, and besides, I'd rather make it more clear that they are brought back solely to take down the betrayers.


So, any ideas on what I can do with the whole "Brought back to be instruments of vengence" thing?

Zincorium
2008-04-02, 11:47 AM
I'm getting a sort of Black Hawk Down + The Crow feel from this (admittedly that's an oversimplification). Sounds like fun to play.


As to the mechanical representation- I know, at least back in 2nd edition, this kind of creature was known as a Revenant. I don't know if there's any 3.5 analogue to this (oddly d20 modern has it), but it's not particularly hard to homebrew. Alternately, you could use the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis if you've got that available.

The way I'd personally play it is that they change to undead type, but with fast healing 1/hour or something to that effect. I'd actually explore the 'hey, we can't permanently die!' idea by allowing them to eventually get back up from nearly any injury, but with a negative level each time they die that goes away automatically in a day or so. Have the lack of rotting be explained by the fact that the spirit of vengeance is continually repairing their bodies.

Then have one of the PCs actually die permanently from some weakness you decided on beforehand, even something as simple as silver, and watch as the rest of the campaign they take almost absurd steps to avoid an enemy wielding it, fearing the loss of their immortality.

BRC
2008-04-02, 11:52 AM
I'm getting a sort of Black Hawk Down + The Crow feel from this (admittedly that's an oversimplification). Sounds like fun to play.


As to the mechanical representation- I know, at least back in 2nd edition, this kind of creature was known as a Revenant. I don't know if there's any 3.5 analogue to this (oddly d20 modern has it), but it's not particularly hard to homebrew. Alternately, you could use the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis if you've got that available.

The way I'd personally play it is that they change to undead type, but with fast healing 1/hour or something to that effect. I'd actually explore the 'hey, we can't permanently die!' idea by allowing them to eventually get back up from nearly any injury, but with a negative level each time they die that goes away automatically in a day or so. Have the lack of rotting be explained by the fact that the spirit of vengeance is continually repairing their bodies.

Then have one of the PCs actually die permanently from some weakness you decided on beforehand, even something as simple as silver, and watch as the rest of the campaign they take almost absurd steps to avoid an enemy wielding it, fearing the loss of their immortality.
Hrmm, Maybe i replace "Going to the nearest temple and buying a raise dead" with "paying gold to get some materials that the spirit can use to revive a body". I mean, this is DnD, Death is cheap anyway (we don't play with losing levels or con when you die, and we like it that way) might as well semi-justify it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-02, 11:57 AM
Pretty sure the rules don't say undead rot. (And, in fact, I rather think vampires are almost universally non-rotting.)

Maybe make them Deathless. (BoED and/or Eberron.) Or just create a custom template to apply to them. Or make the spirit of vengeance a minor deity of vengeance that uses Posses s Mortal (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/salientAbilities.html#possess-mortal). (That one might be a bit too powerful, though.)

Zincorium
2008-04-02, 12:00 PM
Hrmm, Maybe i replace "Going to the nearest temple and buying a raise dead" with "paying gold to get some materials that the spirit can use to revive a body". I mean, this is DnD, Death is cheap anyway (we don't play with losing levels or con when you die, and we like it that way) might as well semi-justify it.

Possibly something a bit Frankenstein-esque? Having to find a barber (medieval usage of the term) to sew the body back together and pump it full of strange alchemical reagents. Voodoo type rituals would also be interesting.

If death and coming back is going to be easy, you'd be losing out on a great opportunity if you don't try and explore the horror and loss of sanity of getting repaired again and again by forces you don't really understand.

I still say you should have some way for the characters to die permanently, if none of the players seem like they'd be cool with a dramatic death scene, include some NPC who is sympathetic. A non-pc character like an artillery sergeant would work well. Watching someone you've already been through trauma alongside get killed by someone you thought might help you is going to instill a fear in the PCs that goes beyond simple loss of character.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 12:03 PM
Obviously, use music. A good campaign has a good plot. A great campaign has an atmosphere, and I seriously can't imagine anything more atmospheric than hearing the bit of Iron Maiden's The Number of The Beast in which the singer says

"I'm coming back...
I Will return!
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn!
I have the fire...
...I have the force...
I have the power to make my evil take it's course!"

As the PC's find themselves reincarnated and empowered. Gives a feelin' o' powah, yo.

Now, on the plot itself. Naturally, you can give them the undead traits, but you can also add a twist. Something like this:

While the spirit of Vengeance is a mighty entity, it is but a fledgling in the manipulation of the multiverse. As such, while it can bend the rules, it can't break them. The PC's are undead and can keep their alignments, but Negative energy is still a force attacking them. Every day, the corrupting taint of the Negative Energy Plane threatens to override the spirit of vengeance and transform them into mindless undead drones, a state from which there's no return. Thus, before engaging in the revenge, the first thing to do is clear: Find some way to defeat the taint, a safeguard. Perhaps some sage has an idea of how to stop it, maybe becoming partial conduits of the positive energy plane?

So, does that sound interesting?

BRC
2008-04-02, 12:08 PM
Possibly something a bit Frankenstein-esque? Having to find a barber (medieval usage of the term) to sew the body back together and pump it full of strange alchemical reagents. Voodoo type rituals would also be interesting.

If death and coming back is going to be easy, you'd be losing out on a great opportunity if you don't try and explore the horror and loss of sanity of getting repaired again and again by forces you don't really understand.

Oh, who said that. The Spirit of Vengence get's them back on their feet, it wants them to do the job. However, It's not exactly nice about it, as a matter a fact it may get mad at them for wasting their time dieing. I'll try to think of some penalties for dieing, maybe they must make will save or rage, forcing them to use their most powerful attacks on any available targets (such as troops who work for the betrayer). It's not a barbarian rage, they don't gain any bonuses, it would work like when a bear or wolf shaman rages in Shadowrun, they are forbidden from doing anything except killing the enemy as fast as possible, if this means wasting a scroll of disentrigrate on a random mook with 2 HP left, so be it. The Spirit of vengence is not clever or subtle.

So, the more times they die, the higher the Will save DC to avoid going beserk that they must make whenever they see a target of thier vengence. For Example, they are in a city and a group of soliders march by, the soliders are targets of thier vengence, so the group must make will save or, despite the fact that it is a very bad idea right now, Attack the soliders.

Prometheus
2008-04-02, 01:14 PM
I don't know how happy your PCs will be when you alter the fluff of their character by making them semi-undead, give them will saves to resist compulsory actions, and have their ultimate life goals cut out for them. My PCs would not like it.

Instead of making their resurrection arbitrary and their vengeance semi-mandatory, you should endeavor to create a situations were both the characters and the players feel reason to take vengeance into their own hands. This is harder to plan, but more rewarding. Any combination of the three below could help drive your player's motivation, with or without the undeath:

Honor Debt: Someone resurrects the PCs in order to take vengeance on the traitor-nation. Someone of power to do this, and someone harmed even more gravely then themselves (lost a loved one, lost a kingdom, knew the BBEG personally, knows the evil plan). Out of respect for this NPC, and their own sentiments of revenge, they begin their life with a new purpose.

No one's Pawn: Rather than simply have a random military task, the traitor-nation engineered the battle so that the a random military unit (ie. the one that includes the PCs) unknowingly makes the betrayal possible. They recover some important artifact, which the traitor-nation abuses, fall into an ambush with coalition soldiers, destroy a wagon which includes important coalition hostages, incur the wrath of the dragons (or some other natural power that was previously neutral) etc. The PCs feel the pain more personally, and they hate that they were duped, so they want to get revenge.

Ruined Plans: The PCs are people, and like any person, they have dreams and aspirations. They have some home they'd like to come back to, or a driving personal mission. But when war happens, all those assumptions are blown out of the water. They may survive (be resurrected, or be turned undead), but they can't go on if earth-shattering events change their future (this will depend largely on the character's backstory). In it's place, they have hatred for the one who interrupted things.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-02, 01:35 PM
I don't know how happy your PCs will be when you alter the fluff of their character by making them semi-undead, give them will saves to resist compulsory actions, and have their ultimate life goals cut out for them. My PCs would not like it.

Easy fix: "Hey crew, this is going to be a themed campaign."

When did campaigns with a story that actually affects the PCs become taboo?

Tura
2008-04-02, 02:26 PM
Why not just make them ghosts? Old battlefields haunted by dead soldiers is a very common thing. And they can't be killed - if destroyed before they find the culprit and take their revenge, they just restore themselves in a few days.
It's nice story-telling-wise, but there are two problems.
1) It's understood that the characters won't keep advancing forever. As soon as they take revenge, their spirits find rest and the story ends.
2) It's really harsh railroading. If the players don't like it very much, there's absolutely nothing they can do...

BRC
2008-04-02, 02:43 PM
Why not just make them ghosts? Old battlefields haunted by dead soldiers is a very common thing. And they can't be killed - if destroyed before they find the culprit and take their revenge, they just restore themselves in a few days.
It's nice story-telling-wise, but there are two problems.
1) It's understood that the characters won't keep advancing forever. As soon as they take revenge, their spirits find rest and the story ends.
2) It's really harsh railroading. If the players don't like it very much, there's absolutely nothing they can do...
The problem with making them ghosts is that then things get really hard to balance, and I'm very limited in what I can have them do since ghosts kinda stand out.
And to adress your problems
1) Thats always understood, our campaigns always have end-points. In this case it's just literally the end of the characters as their souls go to rest, rather than us just retiring their character sheets.
2) It's not railroading, it's establishing the goal of the campaign. Railroading is not saying "You must kill the dragon", Railroading is saying "You must kill the dragon in THIS MANNER" or "You must kill the dragon Right NOW, no doing other things until the dragon is dead".

@ Prometheus: Me and our main DM are the only two people who are big on backstories, so "Ruined Plans" wouldn't work all that well. "Honor Debt" I don't like as much, however "No ones pawn" sounds like a good way to make things intresting though. I got it, the PC's were assaigned to defend a bridge until the Traitor-Nation reinforcements could arrive. If they had allowed the bridge to fall, then the Coalition would have won the battle anyway, and the Traitor-Nation wouldn't have been able to cross without significant casualties. By holding the bridge, they allowed the Traitor-Nation to massacre the Coalition troops without cost.

Another Idea I had, with the whole "every time you die, the DC to resist going beserk when you see the enemy goes up" thing. The PC's have the ability to borrow more power from the Sprit of Vengence, giving them temporary bonuses. However, doing so raises the Save DC. The Idea being that as they take more and more power from the Spirit of Vengence (Whether intentionally using it to power themselves up, or by the Spirit reviving them when they die) The spirit gains more and more influence over them, and though they share the same goal, the Spirit is a force of blind vengence, and is not very smart.

Prometheus
2008-04-02, 04:07 PM
Easy fix: "Hey crew, this is going to be a themed campaign."
When did campaigns with a story that actually affects the PCs become taboo?
It's one thing to have plot, its another thing altogether to remove any individuality that would distinguish PCs from each other and overturn their backstories. In any event, see below.


...The Idea being that as they take more and more power from the Spirit of Vengence (Whether intentionally using it to power themselves up, or by the Spirit reviving them when they die) The spirit gains more and more influence over them...
This addition makes the whole Spirit of Vengeance thing a lot better. It provides the characters with some degree of choice and adds an interesting mechanic. I have a couple of thoughts that could make this work the best.
-The benefits should cap by their level, so they can't trade their character for the spirit of vengeance completely.
-The benefits should help all different types of characters and builds
-The benefits should be offensive and vengeful in nature. Bonuses for attacking a creature that attacked you last turn, for using spells that deal damage rather than control, resist attempts to restrict or calm etc.

Sounds like it is shaping up to be a great campaign. If you conduct it while this thread is still alive, I'd love to hear how it went.

BRC
2008-04-02, 05:38 PM
It's one thing to have plot, its another thing altogether to remove any individuality that would distinguish PCs from each other and overturn their backstories. In any event, see below.


This addition makes the whole Spirit of Vengeance thing a lot better. It provides the characters with some degree of choice and adds an interesting mechanic. I have a couple of thoughts that could make this work the best.
-The benefits should cap by their level, so they can't trade their character for the spirit of vengeance completely.
-The benefits should help all different types of characters and builds
-The benefits should be offensive and vengeful in nature. Bonuses for attacking a creature that attacked you last turn, for using spells that deal damage rather than control, resist attempts to restrict or calm etc.

Sounds like it is shaping up to be a great campaign. If you conduct it while this thread is still alive, I'd love to hear how it went.

Yeah, I'm definetally going to have to try this, if my group dosn't bite, I can run it on these boards (though the fact that all I have is the SRD may pose a challenge.)

Alright, Here's what I'm thinking for the Spirit of Vengence
[spoiler]
When a Spirit of Vengence chooses it's avatars, it offers them several powers, however, these powers come at a price. As the Spirit of Vengence feeds it's power into It's avatar, it leaves a residue of itself behind, a residue that will blind the avatar's judgement, occasionally consuming the subject with the single desire for vengence against their betrayers.
This Residue will be represented by a score called Influence. If the Avatar see's the betrayer, one of their allies, or servants, then the Spirit will attempt to drive the Avatar to attack. The Avatar may resist this influence in one of three ways, They may either resist the Spirit's influence through strength of mind (Will save), Avert their gaze, causing the Spirit's influence to back off (Ref save), Or use physical stamina to restrain themselves (Fort save). They may only attempt one of these methods. The DC for this save is equal to their Influence score. If they succeed, then they act as normal, if they fail the save by two or less, they can take no action for 1d4 rounds as the struggle internally. At the end of the 1d4 rounds, they make the save again, if they take damage during that period, increase the DC for the second save by the amount of damage taken. If they fail the save by more than two, the avatar must attack and attempt to destroy their betrayer (Or their servants/Allies) by any means possible, not stopping until their enemies are dead, or they succeed another will save (they can make a new will save once every 1d6 rounds.) The avatar may at any point give into the Spirit's influence and enter the rage.

The Influence Score
The Influence score increases whenever an Avatar uses one of the Spirit's powers. Influence scores, unless otherwise noted, Fade at a rate of one per hour. However, if an Avatar uses any of the Spirit's powers while they still possess temporary Influence points, a number of the new powers Influence points equal to the temporary influence points already possesed by the avatar becomes permenant. There is no way, short of a wish spell, to lower your Permenant Influence score. If your Influence score ever exceeds your Hit die, the difference between your influence score and your hit die becomes Permanent.
Example: Bill has an Influence score of 7, uses Vengeful Strike to gain +2 to his attack rolls, giving him a temporary Influence score of 9. An hour later, (when his influence score is 8), the party gets in another fight, Bill again uses Vengeful Strike to give him a +2 bonus, but since he still has 1 temporary influence point, one of the points becomes permenant.
Powers

Vengeful Strike: The Avatar enters a rage (as if they failed their save) and so long as they remain raged gain a bonus to their attack rolls up to their hit die (Chosen when power is invoked), they also gain an equal number of temporary influence points.
Vengeful Strength: The Avatar enters a rage (as if they failed their save) and so long as they remain raged gain a bonus to their damage rolls up to their hit die (chosen whem power is invoked). They gain an equal number of temporary influence points, a third of which become permenant.
Vengeful Determination: The Avatar enters a rage and gains a bonus to saves up to thier hit die (Chosen when power is invoked). This bonus does not apply to saves made to resist the Spirit's influence.
Not Even Death: The Spirit revives the Avatar from death (As the Raise Dead spell), this process adds 3 permenant influence points and automatically activates if the Avatar remains dead for more than three hours.
Vengence Unstoppable: The Spirit pours it's power into not only reviving the avatar, but reconstructing them, (as True Ressurection), this process adds 10 permanent influence points and Automatically activates if the Avatar's body is destroyed past the point where it could be applicable for Raise Dead and remains that way for three days.
[spoiler]

Sorry for the Bad spelling/lack of clarity, this took longer than I thought and I got homeworks to do
*panic*

I don't really like being able to resist with Ref and Fort saves, but otherwise the mechanic becomes too slanted towrds classes with good Will saves.

Prometheus
2008-04-02, 07:52 PM
Hmm, it's hard to tell whether or not those influence points will be strong enough or not. Just run it on the fly and tell your players that you reserve the right to arbitrarily add permanent influence points to each player as a result of time passed without receiving the ultimate vengeance".

Megafly
2008-04-03, 06:46 PM
I'd suggest that rather than make them undead, they each get a one way ride on the re-incarnation express.

the bugbear wizard, or Troglodyte caster will know they are different.


Even if you don't re-incarnate, you should make sure they know that they can't let their families know they are alive because it would put them at risk. (think Lone Ranger)