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View Full Version : Fluff from 2nd to 3rd edition Forgotten Realms



LongVin
2008-04-02, 12:44 PM
Now I know the Time of Troubles was used to bridge the gap between first and second edition. But was there any official storyline for the transition between second and third edition or 3rd and 3.5?


Also, is Forgotten Realms the only setting to get an official transition storyline or did every setting get one? I ask because the only one I ever hear of is the Time of Troubles.

ShadowSiege
2008-04-02, 12:50 PM
2e to 3e: A wizard did it. An undead wizard named Vecna that ascended to godhood and nearly reshaped all realities to his will. and was stopped only by the Lady of Pain. Some of the changes remained, thus, 3e.

No fluff was given for 3->3.5.

Matthew
2008-04-02, 12:52 PM
People tend to blow the mechanical changes out of proportion. The Time of Troubles was more to do with campaign world alterations than anything to do with the edition change. The core rules for AD&D 1e and 2e have virtually no compatability issues.

For D20 1e (3e), the timeline was advanced a few years and some new stuff was introduced, mainly to do with the shadow plane.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-02, 01:31 PM
Yeah, none of the rules changes were really excused. Monks and sorcerers just popped out of nowhere, along with nonhuman paladins, dwarven wizards, etc. Go figure.

Several new plotlines were introduced (fey'ri, Shade, phaerimm resurgence, etc.), but they had little to do with the system change.

jamroar
2008-04-02, 01:33 PM
Now I know the Time of Troubles was used to bridge the gap between first and second edition. But was there any official storyline for the transition between second and third edition or 3rd and 3.5?


Also, is Forgotten Realms the only setting to get an official transition storyline or did every setting get one? I ask because the only one I ever hear of is the Time of Troubles.

No, Dragonlance has had two of them
AD&D -> SAGA system(not the current d20 system known as SAGA, a completely different one), Chaos War in Dragons of Summer Flame leading to Fifth Age.

SAGA -> 3rd Ed. , War of Souls and the return of the gods leading to Age of Mortals.

Greyhawk had a wrongheaded 1e->2e transition module "The Fate of Istus" where they killed off all the Assassins in the world and deported all the Monks to Oriental Adventures, to fit with the 2nd ed. rules.

LongVin
2008-04-02, 02:09 PM
2e to 3e: A wizard did it. An undead wizard named Vecna that ascended to godhood and nearly reshaped all realities to his will. and was stopped only by the Lady of Pain. Some of the changes remained, thus, 3e.

No fluff was given for 3->3.5.

It's always a wizard's fault. If we just killed off all the wizards we would be good.

LongVin
2008-04-02, 02:14 PM
No, Dragonlance has had two of them
AD&D -> SAGA system(not the current d20 system known as SAGA, a completely different one), Chaos War in Dragons of Summer Flame leading to Fifth Age.

SAGA -> 3rd Ed. , War of Souls and the return of the gods leading to Age of Mortals.

Greyhawk had a wrongheaded 1e->2e transition module "The Fate of Istus" where they killed off all the Assassins in the world and deported all the Monks to Oriental Adventures, to fit with the 2nd ed. rules.

hmm...interesting

Kurald Galain
2008-04-02, 03:21 PM
It's always a wizard's fault. If we just killed off all the wizards we would be good.

What about the ones at the Coast?

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-04-02, 04:07 PM
What about the ones at the Coast?

What wizards did you think he was referring to?

LibraryOgre
2008-04-02, 09:58 PM
Yeah, none of the rules changes were really excused. Monks and sorcerers just popped out of nowhere, along with nonhuman paladins, dwarven wizards, etc. Go figure.

FWIW, Monks were present in 2e, just de-emphasized between Forgotten Realms Adventures (which suggested allowing Monk characters to continue as-is) and Faiths and Avatars (which introduced a new version of the class).

EvilElitest
2008-04-02, 10:09 PM
Awwwwww, i thought this thread was about lost fluff that was abandoned in 2E. Damn
from
EE

hamlet
2008-04-03, 07:16 AM
FWIW, Monks were present in 2e, just de-emphasized between Forgotten Realms Adventures (which suggested allowing Monk characters to continue as-is) and Faiths and Avatars (which introduced a new version of the class).

Actually, the Greyhawk products reintroduced both the Monk and the Assassin for 2nd edition in the Scarlet Brotherhood supplement. It was an EXCELLENT book and I recommend it for everyone.

The only problem was that they tacked on a lot of setting baggage to both classes that you had to strip away and fiddle with if you didn't want to use them exactly as packaged, but dang, it was a really good book for settings.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 07:18 AM
Wasn't the greyhawk 2E->3E change over from Vecna's escape from Ravenloft? It changed reality itself.

Ah yes...


At his empire's height, Vecna was betrayed and destroyed by his most trusted lieutenant, a vampire called Kas the Bloody-Handed, using a magical sword that Vecna himself had crafted for him, now known as the Sword of Kas. Only his left hand and his eye survived the battle, perhaps because of the previous events in Fleeth.

Vecna did not stay gone forever, and rose as a demigod of magic and secrets in the world of Greyhawk. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. He then broke free into the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. (Vecna's multiverse shattering campaign in Sigil is used as an in-universe way to explain the differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions of Dungeons & Dragons.). Ejected from Sigil, he returned to Oerth greatly reduced, though still a lesser god.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-03, 07:44 AM
Wasn't the greyhawk 2E->3E change over from Vecna's escape from Ravenloft? It changed reality itself.

Ah yes...

Yeah, I don't see why Vecna would have anything to do with FR.

Was Vecna's escape linked to the other upheavals in Ravenloft? Whatever it was that Azalin did - the Grand Conjunction or something?


Also, did the Dragonlance War of Souls story in the novels really coincide with the 2nd -> 3rd edition switch? Didn't the Dragonlance books take a while to come out? (In fact, didn't they come out 3.5 rather than 3.0 ?)

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 07:48 AM
The reason Vecna's tampering affected FR is because it was in Sigil... the "hub" of the multiverse.

As for the war of the souls... they were published in 2000, 2001 and 2002. What year did 3rd edition happen? (I fail at my geek test for having to ask that)

ZekeArgo
2008-04-03, 08:08 AM
The reason Vecna's tampering affected FR is because it was in Sigil... the "hub" of the multiverse.

As for the war of the souls... they were published in 2000, 2001 and 2002. What year did 3rd edition happen? (I fail at my geek test for having to ask that)

3.0 was back in '00 as I recall.

hamlet
2008-04-03, 08:33 AM
The reason Vecna's tampering affected FR is because it was in Sigil... the "hub" of the multiverse.

As for the war of the souls... they were published in 2000, 2001 and 2002. What year did 3rd edition happen? (I fail at my geek test for having to ask that)

The issue is that the entire Vecna fiasco ignored the major premise of Sigil and hacked off a lot of people: that gods do not get into Sigil. PERIOD.

It's not "gods can get in, but the Lady of Pain can kick them out," it's that they simply cannot enter. When Vecna allegedly entered Sigil, it was as a deity.

On top of that, the entire adventure was junk.


If you want a good Forgotten Realms setting, ignore everything except the first two boxed sets (i.e., the original grey box from 1st edition and the 2nd grey box that came out with 2nd edition). After that, it just got absurd.

jamroar
2008-04-03, 08:43 AM
3.0 was back in '00 as I recall.

Yes, but the Dragonlance Campaign Setting ?3.5E? by Sovereign Press didn't launch until 2003.



It's not "gods can get in, but the Lady of Pain can kick them out," it's that they simply cannot enter. When Vecna allegedly entered Sigil, it was as a deity.

I'm not familiar with Sigil, but didn't that Aoskar guy pull it off until the Lady wasted him?



On top of that, the entire adventure was junk.

That was "Die, Vecna, Die!" wasn't it? Heh, what a name.

LibraryOgre
2008-04-03, 09:44 AM
Actually, the Greyhawk products reintroduced both the Monk and the Assassin for 2nd edition in the Scarlet Brotherhood supplement. It was an EXCELLENT book and I recommend it for everyone.

The only problem was that they tacked on a lot of setting baggage to both classes that you had to strip away and fiddle with if you didn't want to use them exactly as packaged, but dang, it was a really good book for settings.

It did, but it came after Faiths and Avatars/Spells and Magic, and was, as you said, Greyhawk specific. The Monks of the Yellow Rose were retconned into being F&A-style monks, which makes a heck of a lot more sense for Ilmatari than 1e-style fighting-monks.

hamlet
2008-04-03, 11:19 AM
It did, but it came after Faiths and Avatars/Spells and Magic, and was, as you said, Greyhawk specific. The Monks of the Yellow Rose were retconned into being F&A-style monks, which makes a heck of a lot more sense for Ilmatari than 1e-style fighting-monks.

As I did say, yes, the Scarlet Brotherhood monks and assassins were fluffed to be organization and setting specific. But there was absolutely nothing in there that needed to be changed in order to fit them in any other setting anywhere in terms of rules.

For that matter, there was noting stopping you from using your 1e PHB monk and assasin. They worked just fine for my group for a long time.

DeathQuaker
2008-04-03, 02:28 PM
Yeah, none of the rules changes were really excused. Monks and sorcerers just popped out of nowhere, along with nonhuman paladins, dwarven wizards, etc. Go figure.

Or as it was put in Baldur's Gate II (whose plot relied on the Time of Troubles having happened in the past, but used 2ed rules):

Aerie: Mazzy? Do you think you'll ever be a true paladin for Arvoreen?

Mazzy: I am a Truesword for my god, Aerie. That is as close as I can expect to come. To hope for otherwise would be foolish and naive of me.

Aerie: Yes, but I was told that there was a time that halflings were rogues only - that you would never find one that was a cleric or even a warrior such as yourself anywhere.

Mazzy: That's true, if unfortunate. But that was a long time ago, Aerie...things have changed since then.

Aerie: But maybe things could change again? Maybe your people could become paladins and rangers and even mages one day, without limitation. Wouldn't that be exciting?

Mazzy: Yes, yes, and maybe my people will become skinny, wear shoes, and have big, long skulls. Really, Aerie, you needn't keep your head in the clouds ALL the time.

Aerie: Well, it was just a thought.

Mazzy: And it wasn't a bad one. But it's not likely that the gods are going to revamp the halflings and come out with a 'third edition', as it were, now, is it?

Aerie: Oh, you never know. The gods do strange things, sometimes.

LibraryOgre
2008-04-03, 10:06 PM
That annoys me because OD&D halflings weren't rogues. They were warriors.

DeathQuaker
2008-04-04, 01:33 PM
That annoys me because OD&D halflings weren't rogues. They were warriors.

At one point I think they were rogues, probably in some book or another. "OD&D" covers SO much... 1st Ed AD&D, D&D box sets of various colors and publication dates, etc.

Anyway, it's not an important detail. Looking at it from a whole, it's an amusing dialogue to some people. And it addresses the Forgotten Realms shift from 2nd to 3rd (from the perspective of people writing in 2nd Edition who knew what was upcoming for 3rd), which is why it was posted.

LibraryOgre
2008-04-04, 03:04 PM
At one point I think they were rogues, probably in some book or another. "OD&D" covers SO much... 1st Ed AD&D, D&D box sets of various colors and publication dates, etc.

As I use it, it does not. It covers the D&D game, in the editions written by Gygax & Arneson, Moldvay, Mentzer, and the Rules Cyclopedia. 1st edition is called 1st edition or, more commonly, 1e. 2nd edition is called 2nd edition, 2e, or 2.x (rarely, and only when I'm trying to talk about the wide variety of stuff that 2nd edition eventually encompassed). 3rd edition is usually called 3.x, since I tend to lump 3.0 and 3.5 together.


Anyway, it's not an important detail. Looking at it from a whole, it's an amusing dialogue to some people. And it addresses the Forgotten Realms shift from 2nd to 3rd (from the perspective of people writing in 2nd Edition who knew what was upcoming for 3rd), which is why it was posted.

It is an important detail when you're a pedant. Every detail is important when you're a pedant.

Sleet
2008-04-05, 04:02 PM
Also, did the Dragonlance War of Souls story in the novels really coincide with the 2nd -> 3rd edition switch? Didn't the Dragonlance books take a while to come out? (In fact, didn't they come out 3.5 rather than 3.0 ?)

Dragonlance was the first setting WoTC released for 3.5, in 2003 (edit: Other than the implied Greyhawk-light setting in the PHB). I think this was no more than a year after the release of the final volume of the War of Souls trilogy.

An interesting consequence of this is that 3.5 was not yet 100% complete when the Sov Press designers were coming up with Dragonlance for 3.5, and after the folks at Sovereign Press finished their stuff for the DLCS, WoTC tinkered with it before publishing it, so you'll find a few errors and other rulesey bits that aren't 100% 3.5 compatible. Hard to hit a moving target, and all that. :smallwink:

I love Dragonlance, and I love the later stuff Sov Press and Margaret Weis Productions released for it, but the early stuff is definitely a mixed bag. :smallsmile: