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Skyserpent
2008-04-02, 03:47 PM
Try as I might I find that my batman wizard is heavily weakened when approached by an army of Vampiric Swordsages/Warblades.

Rays of horrible cripplings and other save or lose spells are far less effective and that mist form really gets in the way of a lot of really good battlefield control... What can I do when fighting this army of undead ninja-samurai!?

Solo
2008-04-02, 03:49 PM
Armies of things seldom bode well for any character.

That being said, I advise you to pick up Disintegrate (Undead have horrible fort saves) and Sunburst ASAP.

Human Paragon 3
2008-04-02, 03:50 PM
force cage yourself and spam evil-smiting cellestial summoned monsters?

Kyeudo
2008-04-02, 03:50 PM
Buff the party Crusader.

Cast more Disintigrates.

Cast Undeath to Death;

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-02, 04:10 PM
So it's not "Vampire beats batman" but "An army of ToB-using vampires beat batman", eh? Since they're in a large number, most ray spells are quite useless against them unless most of them are just minions. If you're not armed to the teeth with garlic and holy symbols, then why didn't you celerity-teleport away with your party members? Maybe you didn't prepare the right spell/caught unaware with some valuable spells expended etc. Try being prepared next time you meet 'em, hey?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 04:26 PM
Try as I might I find that my batman wizard is heavily weakened when approached by an army of Vampiric Swordsages/Warblades.

Rays of horrible cripplings and other save or lose spells are far less effective and that mist form really gets in the way of a lot of really good battlefield control... What can I do when fighting this army of undead ninja-samurai!?

Bear in mind that turning to mist is a standerd action, as is returning to corporeal which means two turns out of comision. If you really are LNG Batman then cutting the reaction time by two turns pretty much is what your job is, after that were's your Cleric?

In a team without a Cleric then yeah you are down a notch, Sunburst and Undeath to Death is probably about the best you can do, maybe getting gravestrike for your rogue.

Also the Ray of Enfeeblement is fully effective on them, as are some of the SpC rays notably rusting and antimagic (which has the bonus effect of knocking the misting shenanigans on the head)

Squash Monster
2008-04-02, 04:37 PM
Get them to turn into their mist forms using a small battlefield control spell like Web and follow up with Wind Wall to stop them dead in their tracks.

Also consider that battlefield control is only half your bag of tricks - buffing your fighter until he resembles a scythe going through wheat is still a valid strategy.

Chronos
2008-04-02, 04:40 PM
If you really are LNG Batman then cutting the reaction time by two turns pretty much is what your job is, after that were's your Cleric?It's funny how the wizards always just assume that undead are the cleric's job, while the clerics go and burn all of their turn uses for other things, since they're useless against undead.

Talic
2008-04-02, 04:51 PM
Turning isn't how clerics deal with undead. They have a better spell selection for dealing with them.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:09 PM
Shapechange into a dragon and abuse your breath weapon.

martyboy74
2008-04-02, 05:15 PM
Shapechange into a dragon and abuse your breath weapon.

Damnit Tippy, do you have any strategies that don't entail either turning into a dragon or mindraping one to do your work for you? :smalltongue:

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:24 PM
Damnit Tippy, do you have any strategies that don't entail either turning into a dragon or mindraping one to do your work for you? :smalltongue:

Sometimes he shapechanges into a Zodak and Mindrapes Angels.....

Zincorium
2008-04-02, 05:39 PM
Sometimes he shapechanges into a Zodak and Mindrapes Angels.....

Zodar. And I suggest we keep the entire 'mindraping angels' concept, even if it's useful in game, out of the hands and minds of the general public.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:39 PM
Damnit Tippy, do you have any strategies that don't entail either turning into a dragon or mindraping one to do your work for you? :smalltongue:

Yes, but for dealing with armies and using a minimum of resources your best bet really is shapechanging into a dragon.


Sometimes he shapechanges into a Zodak and Mindrapes Angels.....
It's a Zodar. And I don't mind rape solars any more, the gods complain. Instead I use Great Wyrm Prismatic dragons, their more powerful than the gods. :smallbiggrin:

------------
What's the situation? Are you trying to protect a city from these vampires? Do you have to destroy them all? How many are there? Whats the terrain like?

The answers could change my response

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:46 PM
La La La.. I listen to you not..

And mindrape can be copied for the most part with Programmed Amnesia in a controlled environment, for the purposes of Epic Casting you should really be in control of your environment anyway. Ok it takes a while but a high enough caster level scroll of Gate and they'll be around for a while, I'm sure Tippy will be happy to refresh us all on the specifics of the casting chain.

Programed Amnesia can be found in Complete Arcane, by the by.

Jerthanis
2008-04-02, 06:07 PM
Escape from the Vampires by teleporting across running water, then scry them at dawn as they retreat from the sun into their house/catacombs/warrens/whatever. Then during the day, burn their house down or Move Earth/Disintegrate the ground until the sun is shining on them. Watch them burn.

If you MUST fight them IMMEDIATELY with no recourse, Web+Wind Wall will help keep them from overrunning you, and then you can basically buff your team to help them take out the threat.

If you're alone against a lot of vampires and you must fight them immediately, you're pretty much hosed.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 06:11 PM
And of course, there's the classic. Solid Fog, or specially one of the souped up damaging versions. The mist doesn't mean the get off free of the fog.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 06:15 PM
La La La.. I listen to you not..

And mindrape can be copied for the most part with Programmed Amnesia in a controlled environment, for the purposes of Epic Casting you should really be in control of your environment anyway. Ok it takes a while but a high enough caster level scroll of Gate and they'll be around for a while, I'm sure Tippy will be happy to refresh us all on the specifics of the casting chain.

Programed Amnesia can be found in Complete Arcane, by the by.

Yes, you can use Programmed Amnesia instead but that requires a CL on the gate scroll of 100.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 06:18 PM
Yes, you can use Programmed Amnesia instead but that requires a CL on the gate scroll of 100.

How so? Recursive loops in DnD rules aren't my big thing so I don't see where the high CL comes in.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 06:21 PM
And of course, there's the classic. Solid Fog, or specially one of the souped up damaging versions. The mist doesn't mean the get off free of the fog.

It's funny because you suggest that for everything...

And it always works.

Stormthorn
2008-04-02, 06:22 PM
That being said, I advise you to pick up Disintegrate (Undead have horrible fort saves) and Sunburst ASAP.



Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

If your using DnD it doesnt matter what an undeads fort save is. They dont need to make them.

I suppose Disintegrate can hit undead since it can target objects, but it does it in a large cube, not a specific single object. It also isnt harmless

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-02, 06:25 PM
What level are you and what spells do you have access to?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 06:26 PM
How so? Recursive loops in DnD rules aren't my big thing so I don't see where the high CL comes in.

Programmed Amnesia has a 10 minute casting time. Until CL 100 the gated creature poofs back home before you can finish casting Programmed Amnesia.

TempusCCK
2008-04-02, 06:28 PM
That's why it uses the conjunction "or" to imply that you don't necessarily need both, isn't that nifty?

Honestly, if you need to, just prepare soem summons to summon the largest water elementals you can, I'm unfamiliar with any errata sayign that being submerged in a whirling water elemental doesn't count as being submerged in moving water, and then slaying the vampires after three rounds.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 06:29 PM
Programmed Amnesia has a 10 minute casting time. Until CL 100 the gated creature poofs back home before you can finish casting Programmed Amnesia.

Ah, ok. But how does that affect a gate spell you got as an item from you ZODAR (see, I can learn:smallbiggrin: ) wish. I thought you can get it at whatever level you want?

Eikre
2008-04-02, 06:54 PM
If your using DnD it doesnt matter what an undeads fort save is. They dont need to make them.

Yes they do. Like when they get hit by Disintegrate.



I suppose Disintegrate can hit undead since it can target objects, but it does it in a large cube, not a specific single object. It also isnt harmless

Let's run through the logic of the situation, okay?

Undead have, quote: Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

So, when we apply an effect that requires a fortitude save, we check: Does it work on objects, or is it harmless? If either of those, but not necessarily both, is correct, then the effect works.

The Disintegrate spell works on objects. This is evident from the line, "When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter." Thus, the Disintegrate spell will be effective against undead.

The fact that the Disintegrate spell affects creatures and objects differently does not matter. A vampire is a creature, and is affected by the Disintegrate spell as a creature. Because the Disintegrate spell affects objects, it bypasses the undead immunity; the effect that it actually has on objects is inconsequential, all that matters when you target undead is weather it works on objects in some way or not.

Thus: A Wizard uses Disintegrate. A Vampire has to make a Fortitude Save. If he makes it, he takes half damage from the spell, and if he doesn't, he takes full damage. Simple.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-04-02, 07:22 PM
Ah, ok. But how does that affect a gate spell you got as an item from you ZODAR (see, I can learn:smallbiggrin: ) wish. I thought you can get it at whatever level you want?I assume the hard part is using your CL 100 scroll.

Chronos
2008-04-02, 07:43 PM
It's funny because you suggest that for everything...

And it always works.While Solid Fog or one of its siblings probably will work here, it doesn't always work. It can be defeated with Freedom of Movement, a Necklace of Adaptation, or some means of extradimensional escape (teleportation, etherealness, etc.).

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:48 PM
I assume the hard part is using your CL 100 scroll.

No, thats easy. Shapechange into a Lilitu from Fiendish Codex 1. They have the Ex ability Item Use which allows them to use any magic item as if they had successfully used UMD.

The problem is that its inefficient. If you use a CL 160 scroll you can gate in 2 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons at a time and just Mind Rape them. Or to only get 1 use a CL 78 scroll.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 09:14 PM
While Solid Fog or one of its siblings probably will work here, it doesn't always work. It can be defeated with Freedom of Movement, a Necklace of Adaptation, or some means of extradimensional escape (teleportation, etherealness, etc.).

I am well aware of that, but I was referring to the fact that Azerion suggests Solid Fog in most situations, of course he only suggests it in ones where it works. I was just commenting on the fact that so many of them it is useful.