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Benejeseret
2008-04-03, 12:14 PM
Hi forum lurkers,

I require some advice as to how to play a lvl3 Favored Soul summoner effectively right now (ie. not after levelling the character, no changing feats, skills, spells).

My wife is playing toward a Favoured Soul/Malconvoker summoner with the idea of using Favoured Soul casting progression to allow lots of summons and buffs, stacking CHA use, etc. In our party she is often relied on for basic healing as well. She is feeling really useless lately.

The character is Lvl 3 and geared toward casting (Str10, Dex14, Con11, Int13, Wis16, Cha18) and is a Hellbred (spirit) race and 3 levels of Favoured Soul. Lvl1 main spells are Summon monster1, Cure wounds, Sanctuary. Feats spell focus(conj), Augment Summoning.

The Problem: She planned to be big into combat control. Lots of summons, sanctuary if needed to avoid being targeted, relying on summons to do most of the fighting for her. Uses a whip to stand back and Aid Another her summons or disarm/trip (but low Str).

BUT, our DM seems to be very much against her using the summons to do anything effectively.

- in a rooms with a key on a pedestal surrounded by a deep pool of water with piranhas and water nasties she summoned a Dire Hawk and had it pick up the key.....the DM arbitrary made a reason for it not to work. (same with the 15' whip 'disarm' of the key BTW)

- On a mission to stop pirates on a ship 200' away in the water she summoned a Dire Hawk and Octopus and had them go from water and air to try and distract the enemy Spellcaster on board from concentrating on a big spell.....DM arbitrarily had all 50 archers on board stop attacking a heavily armed shoreline with catapults to shoot down the Hawk and then the Octopus in the water.

- Every time she summons anything it is immediately targeted by NPC/Monster and killed in one round (sometimes monsters that seem to magically appear just to kill that summon).

And no, the DM is not just being a jerk, he is new and likely not even aware of the bigger issues here (ie. her ideas kind of ruin his carefully planned scenario/event by creative summons and he does not have the experience to work with it yet).


So what does she do to feel effective?

The DM clearly needs us to ignore creative solutions and just be straight forward.

We have a bunch of money and can buy her new equipment.

What can she do/try to still play her character as she wants to (as a summoner) and still be effective in combat during the next few games?

Thanks

Bene

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 12:16 PM
I would say she's doing things right... your DM is doin' it wrong.

Draz74
2008-04-03, 12:24 PM
Agreed. Also, Level 3 is a low point for any delayed-one-level-full-caster. (Sorcerer, Beguiler, Wilder, Favored Soul, etc.)

Ponce
2008-04-03, 12:30 PM
So what I'm hearing is that she is being TOO effective.

So... in order to be more effective... she has to be... less effective... if you catch my logic. Maybe?

Try helping the DM. Show him how to make encounters and challenges that can't be utterly and totally destroyed by a single spell. The same spell, in fact.

I don't know. Next time you play with this DM, just play a fighter. Take monkey grip while you're at it.

Solo
2008-04-03, 12:37 PM
Tell the Dm he shouldn't force things to go his way. If the DM only wants certain things to happen, he should go write a gorram book instead of playing a role playing game with others.

Lucyfur
2008-04-03, 12:40 PM
No, never take monkey grip. (Okay, well unless you're huge already.)

Have the DM read this thread.

Or maybe this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474) thread. (On how to be a good DM.)

Artanis
2008-04-03, 12:42 PM
And no, the DM is not just being a jerk, he is new and likely not even aware of the bigger issues here (ie. her ideas kind of ruin his carefully planned scenario/event by creative summons and he does not have the experience to work with it yet).
Frankly, neither person is being very considerate of the other. The Favored Soul isn't being considerate of the DM's lack of experience (which leads to the inability to compensate for her actions on the fly). The DM, on the other hand IS being a jerk: no matter how much it ruins his carefully laid plans, pulling out "rocks fall, the summons die" is being a jackass, period.

The only solution is to get together with the DM and the Favored Soul player and try to work something out. Maybe get the Favored Soul to use more conventional tactics with her summons while the DM stops whipping out DM fiat and come up with some way to account for an extra critter coming around and/or just letting that player have her moment of glory if she comes up with something really, really clever.


If the two can't work something out, things won't work, period. Even if it's unintentional, the Favored Soul abusing the DM's inexperience will only lead to him getting frustrated, and the DM retaliating by effectively stripping her of half her spell list and most of her character identity will be just as bad. Everybody would end up dissatisfied and you may very well end up with a campaign disintegrating.

FinalJustice
2008-04-03, 12:43 PM
Tell the Dm he shouldn't force things to go his way. If the DM only wants certain things to happen, he should go write a gorram book instead of playing a role playing game with others.

Amen.

She could use her summons like pokémons, namely, a bunch of critters with useful abilities that are mostly used to beat the crap out of each other, useful things are rare. But seriously, this sucks. A lot.

And I really don't think she's being jerkish. Read the post, the uses for the summons doesn't seem stretches at all. The second use, specially, seems the most logical thing for a her to do, giving the fact that there's an enemy spellcaster, a foe which she, as another spellcaster, seems the most apropriate member of the party to deal with.

Lucyfur
2008-04-03, 12:46 PM
While I agree that the DM is unexperienced and possibly being a jerk. I also would not allow your summoned hawk to pick up the key and bring it to you.

From the SRD, summon natures ally spell decription.

"This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

So you would have to be able to communicate with it first.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 01:22 PM
But on the upside... your wife has offered inspiration for me to try a Favored Soul/Malconvoker build. :)

Benejeseret
2008-04-03, 03:08 PM
Hey guys, I'll pass along the sympathy, but she could still likely use a few IC ideas to cope until she levels at least to 4 (lvl2 spells).

1) As for her taking advantage of the DM naivety...well, she has played for only a few sessions now and has even less experience than the DM. Some of her ideas come up from the fact it is logical and she does not even know how RAW interacts with logic.

2) As to the key/understanding thing. Maybe RAW disagrees with me, but it is a fiendish hawk/whatever. It has intelligence 3, meaning it can and, I believe, does understand the very basics of at least 1 language...she speaks infernal and abyssal among a few others. Since a PC can function (not well) at Int 3, I would think anything else at Int 3 would understand, "Fetch" or even "Fetch shiny thing," if not a whole lot more.


I might mention the overall, open up to roll with a few things, to the DM but overall we are trying to let him learn and grow into it without forcing our ideas or rule interpretations onto him (especially at the logic vs RAW boundaries).

Which leaves us back to the beginning, "what can she do to participate more in combat/game?"

Wands? Ranged weapons? Wondrous items? Thoughts to still keep in line with a summoner feel?

Solo
2008-04-03, 03:10 PM
Wands? Ranged weapons? Wondrous items? Thoughts to still keep in line with a summoner feel?

Pick up Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might.

That is all.

Shovah
2008-04-03, 03:11 PM
Lucyfur, can you point out where summon natures ally is being used? The player in question is a favoured soul using the summon monster spell.

senrath
2008-04-03, 03:21 PM
Lucyfur, can you point out where summon natures ally is being used? The player in question is a favoured soul using the summon monster spell.

It doesn't matter. Both spells have that particular line.

As for what she can do, in some cases she could summon multiple things out of the range of enemy fire, and then send them in en masse once there are enough of them. Think zerg rush from StarCraft. Sure, they may have big guns, but when said guns are forced to focus on lots of smaller targets, things usually slip through. Not to mention that it will take pressure off of the rest of the group.

Artanis
2008-04-03, 03:25 PM
Hey guys, I'll pass along the sympathy, but she could still likely use a few IC ideas to cope until she levels at least to 4 (lvl2 spells).

1) As for her taking advantage of the DM naivety...well, she has played for only a few sessions now and has even less experience than the DM. Some of her ideas come up from the fact it is logical and she does not even know how RAW interacts with logic.

2) As to the key/understanding thing. Maybe RAW disagrees with me, but it is a fiendish hawk/whatever. It has intelligence 3, meaning it can and, I believe, does understand the very basics of at least 1 language...she speaks infernal and abyssal among a few others. Since a PC can function (not well) at Int 3, I would think anything else at Int 3 would understand, "Fetch" or even "Fetch shiny thing," if not a whole lot more.


I might mention the overall, open up to roll with a few things, to the DM but overall we are trying to let him learn and grow into it without forcing our ideas or rule interpretations onto him (especially at the logic vs RAW boundaries).

Which leaves us back to the beginning, "what can she do to participate more in combat/game?"

Wands? Ranged weapons? Wondrous items? Thoughts to still keep in line with a summoner feel?
If I implied malice, it wasn't intended. I meant even if it's totally by accident, the Favored Soul is still gaining an advantage from the DM's inexperience. Lord knows I've managed to do so a couple of times :smallwink:

As to participating more in combat, I'm not very familiar with the Favored Soul as a class, but I'm sure there has to be something on the list of those Summon spells that she can send in just to chew on the enemy in most situations. ...well, not in the boat situation you described, but I mean in general.

de-trick
2008-04-03, 04:56 PM
Last time I used summon monsters spells i used it to save myself by casting a dire weasel infront of the monster so it would attack it not me, sorta lke a shield. Also i see no reason why complain if the animals take a hit instead of a pc, job done.

Starsinger
2008-04-03, 05:22 PM
Hey guys, I'll pass along the sympathy, but she could still likely use a few IC ideas to cope until she levels at least to 4 (lvl2 spells).

1) As for her taking advantage of the DM naivety...well, she has played for only a few sessions now and has even less experience than the DM. Some of her ideas come up from the fact it is logical and she does not even know how RAW interacts with logic.

2) As to the key/understanding thing. Maybe RAW disagrees with me, but it is a fiendish hawk/whatever. It has intelligence 3, meaning it can and, I believe, does understand the very basics of at least 1 language...she speaks infernal and abyssal among a few others. Since a PC can function (not well) at Int 3, I would think anything else at Int 3 would understand, "Fetch" or even "Fetch shiny thing," if not a whole lot more.

Which leaves us back to the beginning, "what can she do to participate more in combat/game?"[/U]

Wands? Ranged weapons? Wondrous items? Thoughts to still keep in line with a summoner feel?

2) 3 is the minimum intelligence for a creature capable of intelligent thought, which does not imply that it speaks a language, although given that regular animals can be trained to do all sorts of things, a handle animal check (which even without ranks with her charisma shouldn't be that bad) should be able to convey the message about the key.

1) I have to agree, the DM is being a bit childish. The first hard lesson of DMing is that the PCs will ruin whatever carefully laid plans you have and you have to learn to do things on the fly.

On that note, her plans seem very smart and I really hope she enjoys herself once this is resolved, if it's resolved.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-03, 05:33 PM
Bene, trying to let the DM grow is admirable, but it's a job of the players to let him know he's being an idiot. The first, and most prioritary thing to do is tell him verbatim: "Hey, man, can we talk to you for a minute? Remember the summons (Insert name of the favored soul here) is using? No offense to you, but you're botching them in a fiatty way. If it's not a problem, can you let her use them effectively? It doesn't matter if you have to make up rules, but let her get some usefulness out of her concept.

Oh, and 'nother thing. I was checking out a Forum named Giant In the Playground, and found this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474) (Show him to a PC with a page opened at AKA's guide). Since you're learning the ropes, I thought this could be useful. Maybe you could check it out."

Ascension
2008-04-03, 05:41 PM
Ranged weapons aren't optimal, but she does have the stats to contribute with them, with or without Zen archery. If her WIS was just a little higher, I'd definitely say to pick up Zen archery and the best bow she can wield, but I'm not so sure with the current stats.

I admire the goal of serving as a summoner, and Malconvoker is a nice prestige class, both flavorful and (if played correctly) powerful, but you've got to be five levels into it before your summons really start to get strong.

If your DM isn't willing to allow creative use of summons, then they'll only be useful in combat, and they won't really be useful in combat until you're a malconvoker. My suggestion is to keep the summoning an obvious aspect of her repertoire, but to consider diversifying a bit until she gets Fiendish Legion and gets to really pour on the powerful summons.

By the way, how is she summoning fiendish creatures already? Is she neutral? Because you have to be non-evil to become a malconvoker, but you don't get unrestricted conjuration (and the ability to summon evil creatures as a non-evil action) until you take the first level in the PrC, which should be a ways away.

Benejeseret
2008-04-03, 05:45 PM
Hellborn racial evil exemption. Gives a lot of leeway on the blurry boundary between neutral and evil. (and she is Lawful Neutral)

Ascension
2008-04-03, 06:06 PM
Oh, hellborn, forgot.

Lawful Neutral? Not a favored soul of St. Cuthbert, by any chance, is she? I think Malconvoker would fit nicely with Cuthbert. Justice by any means, even if it means enslaving the very evil we fight against. Nice.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-03, 06:08 PM
At 3rd level she has what... 4 spells known? One summon, one healing... what else does she have? If the DM is unreasonable regarding the summoning, ask if she can switch out one of her spells for an offensive spell or something.

Also, if she doesnt feel effective in melee, she could try doing the Aid action. It's not great, but +2 to attack at 3rd level can be huge.

As for roleplaying things to keep her interests... the requirements of Malconvoker are bluff and knowledge (planes) ... perhaps she goes around saying that everything is an extraplanar creature. Even if they arent. Her bluff will probably beat everyone else's sense motive... :smallwink: