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Frosty
2008-04-03, 12:26 PM
Ok, forget powerful. Yes, Ubercharger can kill things a lot of times. And we know there are plenty of builds that plain suck, like Board and Sword. Both are boring. Ubercharging because you only do one thing well and you kill things in one round. Sword and Board because you can't even do one thing well.

What I'm looking for it a Fighter build (can have a smattering of dips, but mainly fighter) that has multiple options and is fun to play! Fun and effective while working with the party is what we're aiming for. ECL 10. No templates. No LA more than +1. Most books allowed.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-03, 12:52 PM
I'll be the first to say Warblade 20

Draz74
2008-04-03, 12:53 PM
Dungeoncrasher.

Or its extreme expansion, Homer the Flaming Bowling Ball of Doom, if you want fun and cheesy overpowered-ness.

Ascension
2008-04-03, 01:00 PM
I knew someone was going to suggest Warblade, but I didn't expect it from the very first reply.

I personally think a lockdown-tripper build is good. Goliath for the race, at least one level of barbarian to pick up Mountain Rage... now you're large while raging. If you've got a spiked chain, that gives you a 20ft radius of carnage. Get in the middle of a crowd of mooks and let loose.

Now, that's my personal preference. Season to taste.

streakster
2008-04-03, 01:06 PM
I'll be the second to say Warblade 20.

Thrawn183
2008-04-03, 01:07 PM
Goliath Barbarian/Fighter
Dungeoncrasher with mountain rage, knockback and a reach weapon.

That's all you really need, everything else is just icing on the cake.

Player_Zero
2008-04-03, 01:10 PM
Ok, forget powerful...
What I'm looking for it a Fighter build (can have a smattering of dips, but mainly fighter)


I'll be the first to say Warblade 20

It's not quite a fighter, though, is it? Unless by "Fighter" he meant a melee character... In which case please disregard and continue with your lives. :smalltongue:

I, being the kind of roleplaying nerd, would dare say that you could make any fighter build pretty fun... I reckon the more outrageous it is then the most enjoyable the experience would be. For instance, a fight build built around throwing weaponry might be a bit more interesting that a build such as the sword and board because it is a little be different.

Person_Man
2008-04-03, 01:11 PM
My fall back Fighter build is Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22). Although he includes many other classes and feats, all you really need is Goliath or Half Giant, Fighter 6, Dungeoncrasher, Power Attack, Knockback, and Shock Trooper. Everything else is gravy.

Smiley_
2008-04-03, 01:12 PM
I think Frosty was hoping for a fighter build, not a warblade or crusader or whatnot.

I would think that a flail fighter with improved sunder, improved bull rush, weapon expertise, improved trip and disarm, power attack (dur), and shock trooper for the purposes of directed bullrush would be very fun to play. Given any situation, you should be able to incorporate some special attacks into your style. Throw combat reflexes in for good measure.

Add lightning reflexes and take prone attack(CW) just for the sole purposes of being able to trip people from the ground without penalty(if you get tripped on your own attempt), getting back up as a free action, and whacking them again.

SydneyLosstarot
2008-04-03, 01:12 PM
Pity you won't take LA +2,
I was going to suggest a Thri-Kreen Dervish with Improved Multiweapon Fighting and a level of Barbarian with the Lion Spirit Totem option, wielding four scimitars.
That would be General Grievous jumping around the battlefield, with, like, up to 10 attacks per turn )
may be fun rolling those d20's

FinalJustice
2008-04-03, 01:13 PM
I'll be the third to say Warblade 20.

Keld Denar
2008-04-03, 01:14 PM
Goliath Barbarian/Fighter
Dungeoncrasher with mountain rage, knockback and a reach weapon.

That's all you really need, everything else is just icing on the cake.

+1

Not the most effective thing you can do, but nothing says luvin like hitting your opponents so hard they fly back and bounce off of walls.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 01:17 PM
Warblade 10/Bloodstorm Blade X

Just because you can.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 01:18 PM
But can it do anything else except bullrushing people into walls?

AmberVael
2008-04-03, 01:18 PM
I think my favorite build has to be my epic one based off of this. (http://bunny-comic.com/?id=34)
It's one thing to be beaten by a normal fighter. You can just say "he rolled well and got crits."
But you never live down being beaten by an anthropomorphic bunny using a sword larger than you.

Smiley_
2008-04-03, 01:22 PM
and a level of Barbarian with the Lion Spirit Totem option...

Gah! What is it with the lion spirit totem barbarian for pounce? It's like it's in every meele build I see! I'm sick of it and most DMs probably won't allow it.

Pounce this! Pounce that!

Really, I don't see what drove WotC to give this to a character class. The only monsters that get pounce are things such as sphinxes, lions, and griffons and so on. Pounce on these creatures makes sense, at least, as they dig their claws into a target for rake damage and a bite attack as well.

Frankly, I'll continue to live my life and play my barbarians without a large helping of gouda, thank you very much!

I apologize if some people take offense at this. This was not directed at any person or meant to be flame-ish, just the tactic drives me up the wall!

Ascension
2008-04-03, 01:29 PM
Frankly, I'll continue to live my life and play my barbarians without a large helping of gouda, thank you very much!

Seconded. Didn't they declare that a typo or something anyway?

I don't mind a creative, effective melee build, but Lion Totem isn't creative in the slightest. It's just so darn easy to abuse it's criminal. You'd think there was some sort of factory up in the mountains cranking out Lion-worshipping barbarian fighters.

Now I admit I suggested the spiked chain, and it's overused as well, but can we have a little moderation?

Cheese =/= Fun.

Keld Denar
2008-04-03, 01:29 PM
But can it do anything else except bullrushing people into walls?

Who cares? What's better in life than knocking people into walls? Other than knocking people into more walls....

Seriously, even in an open plains, having a reach weapon as a knockback based dungeoncrasher is still a riot, since people who charge you (in the front of your party) still get knocked back 10-15 feet or more depending on how much damage you can put out. The shear comic gold of playing whack-a-mole with a charging group of goblins gives me an "Overwhelm"ing case of the giggles, and I believe I failed my will save.

Smiley_
2008-04-03, 01:35 PM
I believe that a spiked chain wielder can be subdued with a healthy application of sunder and/or destructive rage. It takes a DC 30 check to bust an iron chain through a quick sharp shock, and Destructive Rage gives a +8 bonus to STR checks when busting things, so a raging barbarian should have a decent chance of hitting the chain and busting it to pieces or attacking the weapon rather than the wielder.

Just conjecture mind you, but sunder does have it's uses.

Eldariel
2008-04-03, 01:37 PM
Fighters are not fun. They're by definition one-two trick ponies. If you want fun, you want Warblade. This is especially true if you define fun as something else but doing the same thing every battle, every level, every session, every game.

If you really want to make a Fighter with some options, get Dungeon Crasher, Charge-feats, Tripping-feats and some AoO-stuff along with maxed Intimidate, little Barbarian-dip and Intimidating Rage. That nets you the ability to bull rush people for damage, effective battlefield control in tripping, the ability to make weakling cower and the ability to make very painful charges. Note that it'll take a long while to pick all those abilities up, so your build will only be finished way into the midlevels. Don't forget Power Attack and maybe Combat Expertise; allocating your BAB gives you something to do other than hitting things. Hell, toss in something like a shield and get some maneuvers that allow protecting others with it, along with the Shield Ward-feat and you can also be blocking attacks (of course, this doesn't really go well with Power Attack without sneaky trickery); then use Shield Bash and get TWF feats and go nuts. Or get TWF feats for your Chain, allowing you to take that weird Chain-variant that can either be wielded ranged or as a TWF weapon without reach. Stuff like that gets your versatility and makes the character at least mildly amusing to play.

Oh, don't forget to use Cityscape to get some social skills and learn stuff like Intimidate, Gather Information and so on to actually have interaction options. That way you won't get bored to death when not hitting things. So all you need is tons of feats, tons of levels, incredibly high rolls (for tons of Int and Charisma to make your social skills work while having high Dex, Str and Con), creative imagination and a roomful of monkeys building your character sheet.

TempusCCK
2008-04-03, 01:45 PM
I came up with a figther build based completely on using fighting defensively as a tactic.

Need Combat Reflexes, High Dex, Improved Trip, Swift Riposte (can't for the love of me remember the souce), Improved Unarmed Strike, and Defensive Throw. Some Combat Expertise would be nice. Basically, you just generate high amounts of AoO's whenever someone attacks you. Every time you fight defensively and they miss an attack, you get an AoO against them with Swift Riposte, if they're making multiple attacks on you, get a few AoO's in there, and finish it with a trip attempt using Defensive Throw. Throw in Goad to keep them coming at you, and the best part is... it's not all the feat intensive, so you can combine it with other, non-feat intensive builds.

valadil
2008-04-03, 01:53 PM
Spiked chain gish. Lots of combat options and plenty of feats too. I like something along the lines of wizard 1 / fighter 1 / human paragon 3 / spellsword 3 / eldritch knight x. That's 4 lost caster levels, which fit practiced caster very nicely. It's a nice build for tripping/arcane striking with some buffs too. I like it because it's got plenty of options for what to do each turn beyond the basic full attack or move w/ a single attack.

FinalJustice
2008-04-03, 02:06 PM
Seriously, I really wanted to try Weapon Supremacy out someday, but 18 levels of fighter is way beyond my suckiness tolerance and spending almost all your Warblade feats in Weapon Focus Chain seems way too stupid.

Telonius
2008-04-03, 02:18 PM
ECL 10? A simple, yet enjoyable, build.

Dwarf Ranger3/Fighter5/DwarvenDefender2.
Favored Enemy: Orcs. (I think they cut off your beard if you don't choose that)
Feats:
1 - Power Attack
1 (Ranger) - Track
2 (Ranger) - Rapid Shot
3 - Dodge
3 (Ranger) - Endurance
4 (Fighter) - Imp Bull Rush
5 (Fighter) - Giantbane (CWar)
6 - Toughness (See if your DM will allow you to substitute Improved Toughness - many will)
7 (Fighter) - Shock Trooper (CWar)
9 - Combat Expertise
9 (DD) - Defensive Stance
9 (DD) - +1 AC
10 (DD) - Uncanny Dodge

At level 10, it'll have +10 BAB, +10 Fort/+4 Ref/ +5 Will, Average of 56 + Con HP (63 if Imp Toughness is used), 38 + Int skill points, and a good skill list. Take Fighter the rest of the way out, or flavor with Stonelord (CWar). You'll have the Fighter standards, as well as a very Dwarf-y feel. Giantbane improves his already-impressive bonuses versus larger foes. Rapid Shot gives him a little more versatility if (for whatever reason) you need to use a ranged weapon. (TWF is teh suck anyway).

Person_Man
2008-04-03, 02:27 PM
Seconded. Didn't they declare that a typo or something anyway?

That's the widespread rumor. Presumably, they were supposed to get it at 6th level instead. But that's not how its written, and there hasn't been an errata. Also, its pretty easy to get Pounce via other means. Lion Totem is just the most popular. And its not like melee builds are powerful compared to casters, so why not give it to them?

Frosty
2008-04-03, 02:34 PM
As a clarification, I don't mind if the build is powerful or even a bit cheesy. The main requirement is *fun* and not the same thing over and over again.

Oh, and it shouldn't overshadow/make it un-fun for the rest of the party. That should not be a huge problem given the class we're working with.

Eldariel
2008-04-03, 02:35 PM
I couldn't find a feat named 'Swift Riposte', but 'Agile Riposte', which allows you to make an attack with a weapon you'd got Weapon Finesse on, against a guy who misses you on an attack roll. It's in Dragon 305. But yea, IUS and Defensive Throw are good feats, easy to pick up with a Monk-level.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-03, 02:39 PM
As a clarification, I don't mind if the build is powerful or even a bit cheesy. The main requirement is *fun* and not the same thing over and over again.

Oh, and it shouldn't overshadow/make it un-fun for the rest of the party. That should not be a huge problem given the class we're working with.

Right, so just to clarify, when you said "fun fighter build" did you mean "a melee character" or "a fighter". Since the two are worlds apart and one can be fun and after 10th level, the other isn't.

Indon
2008-04-03, 02:51 PM
Wizard 20, duh.

But seriously, I had this awesome build once for a low-magic campaign - he was an orcish Fighter with the self-created combat style of "Daubezorn" (that's probably not the right spelling, it's been a while).

In-game, Daubezorn is a generalist quarterstaff combat style based around mastering every aspect of combat.

Out-of-character, Daubezorn is about taking Power Attack, Weapon Expertise, and the TWF feats, and whenever you attack, using all of them for the maximum effect. The objective, of course, is to force both you and your opponent to require a 20 to hit... and then attack more, and harder, than them. It was _ridiculously_ feat intensive and the character died to a party of barbarian orcs before he could master it.

If you can get a PA feat that allows you to increase your damage multiplier for light and one-handed weapons on a power attack, get it. Take improved weapon expertise when it matters. You might even want to take Whirlwind Attack, heck, you don't need to worry about your to-hit very much when you're intentionally tanking it.

Arbitrarity
2008-04-03, 02:51 PM
I believe that a spiked chain wielder can be subdued with a healthy application of sunder and/or destructive rage. It takes a DC 30 check to bust an iron chain through a quick sharp shock, and Destructive Rage gives a +8 bonus to STR checks when busting things, so a raging barbarian should have a decent chance of hitting the chain and busting it to pieces or attacking the weapon rather than the wielder.

Just conjecture mind you, but sunder does have it's uses.

Or, for breaking weapons OTHER PEOPLE are holding, you could, y'know, use the rules designed for that, I.e. sunder. The idea with sunder is that you pull the object apart or somesuch, and that's rather difficult when it's swirling around you and cutting you. That's like saying you can sunder my silk whip with a strength check.

And spiked chains aren't actually that easy to sunder, even if not adamantine. Two handed, and if your foe has flaming homer style size, it becomes more difficult. You also better be wielding a reach weapon, or you can't actually hit without 5 ft steps or being tripped/knocked around. Of course, you also have to take improved sunder. Admittedly, however, chain only has 5 hp. Enhancements add handy amounts to that, as well as to hardness.

Now, a raging golaith barbarian with their greathammer could do such a thing, but any weapon is vulnerable to an essentially equal extent. And it's still not a good idea for PC's, if only for the loot.

Also, I fourth warblade. Or spiked chain trip/elusive target/evasive reflexes/AOO/stand still builds, if only because it's funny to watch your opponent kill themselves trying to reach you and allies.

Also, a good way to get weapon supremacy is by using a combination of warblade and bloodstorm blade. 3 levels or so of bloodstorm blade, maybe 6, aren't too bad, and it's interesting to take 10 on a martial thrown strike of perfect clarity.

Oslecamo
2008-04-03, 02:53 PM
Right, so just to clarify, when you said "fun fighter build" did you mean "a melee character" or "a fighter". Since the two are worlds apart and one can be fun and after 10th level, the other isn't.

You know what? I'm preparing a gestalt campaign here in the forums. Almost every book under the sun allowed, including ToB and Eberron.

A campaign for fun, starting at level 8.

And from 5 sheets I received so far the class most used is fighter. Yeah, the unfun fighter. And one of the players took half of his level as, suprise suprise, feat rogue, wich is basically a fighter, only with more skill points, but since when are skills "funnier" than feats?

Just to show you your definition of "fun" doesn't apply to everybody.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 02:57 PM
It's a gestalt campaign; the fighter's Fun Weakness of limited tactics can be overcome by the second class.

I'll just go ahead and continue the ToB chiming. I sincerely doubt that the ToB is the only way to have fun meleer tactics, but it feels like the only way to do so without significant bookdiving.

streakster
2008-04-03, 02:58 PM
You know what? I'm preparing a gestalt campaign here in the forums. Almost every book under the sun allowed, including ToB and Eberron.

A campaign for fun, starting at level 8.

And from 5 sheets I received so far the class most used is fighter. Yeah, the unfun fighter. And one of the players took half of his level as, suprise suprise, feat rogue, wich is basically a fighter, only with more skill points, but since when are skills "funnier" than feats?

Just to show you your definition of "fun" doesn't apply to everybody.

Yup. Gestalt. So, you take the functional fighter, and combine it with something fun (like, skills - Bluff: I'm your long-lost brother! I don't have a brother. I rolled a 20, you do now.) Besides, you said that it was level 8 - fighter isn't fun after level 10.

Besides again, a sample population of 5 is hardly representative of anything. [/STAT NERD RANT]

Eldariel
2008-04-03, 03:01 PM
Wizard 20, duh.

But seriously, I had this awesome build once for a low-magic campaign - he was an orcish Fighter with the self-created combat style of "Daubezorn" (that's probably not the right spelling, it's been a while).

In-game, Daubezorn is a generalist quarterstaff combat style based around mastering every aspect of combat.

Out-of-character, Daubezorn is about taking Power Attack, Weapon Expertise, and the TWF feats, and whenever you attack, using all of them for the maximum effect. The objective, of course, is to force both you and your opponent to require a 20 to hit... and then attack more, and harder, than them. It was _ridiculously_ feat intensive and the character died to a party of barbarian orcs before he could master it.

If you can get a PA feat that allows you to increase your damage multiplier for light and one-handed weapons on a power attack, get it. Take improved weapon expertise when it matters. You might even want to take Whirlwind Attack, heck, you don't need to worry about your to-hit very much when you're intentionally tanking it.

I do that with my Dervish against tough opponents. Since we faced AC 50something Swiftblade on level 13-14 (our 2-person party), I realised that I can't hit him with under 20, so I used Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise to get +13 to AC (making it 50something too) so neither of us could hit except on 20 and I had way more attacks since he was wielding two-handed, so eventually Skirmish (DC 45 Tumble-checks FTW; who needs Dance), Deadly Defense and 20s overcame him. Stupid Divine Familiars-pumped Swiftblades with +20 to AC and all saves... My ally, the Wizard, was literally useless in the battle since he couldn't hit even with True Strike-rays and the Swiftblade easily made all saves.

One fun Fighter could be something Whip-focused. There're some tactical feats for that and it's a weapon with a lot of variety. Also, Battlecloak User Tactical from PHBII and such could make a good Scoundrel-type Fighter. That could be interesting.

Xefas
2008-04-03, 03:04 PM
Also, I fourth warblade.

Fourthed
EDIT: Fifthed

Seriously, Warblade is the official "Fighter, but fun" (also Barbarian), just like the Crusader is the fun uncle to the boring-as-drying-paint Paladin, and the Swordsage is the fun version of some kind of horrifying amalgamation of the Rogue, Monk, and Ninja.

They're "Non-Spellcasters version 2.0", "The Second Coming of the Meleessiah", and "The Power Gap 2: This Time, It's Personal".

Jayabalard
2008-04-03, 03:09 PM
I'll be the first to say Warblade 20
hmm... so what's the trick that you're using to get a level 20 character but still be ECL 10?


What's better in life than knocking people into walls? To Crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of thier women.

Telonius
2008-04-03, 03:13 PM
Folks, I know that the Fighter is suboptimal, but the OP specifically requested a Fighter build. If you can't deliver one, please move along. [/annoyed]

Deepblue706
2008-04-03, 03:17 PM
I like Fighters who are just plain badass. They're not flashy, swift, or trained-by-a-master. They don't use over-the-top maneuvers or have any sissy "artful" stances. :smallbiggrin:

They emulate badassery in the purest form - which is smashing things, while being unsmashable, yourself.

If I were starting at level 10, my ideal (fun) fighter would look something like this:

Dwarf, Fighter 10

Feats
1: Endurance
1F: Power Attack
2F: Improved Bull Rush
3: Steadfast Determination (PHB2 or Cadv? - I forget; substitute CON mod for Will saves)
4F: Improved Sunder
6: Shock Trooper (Cwar: Transfer Power Attack penalty to AC, and also some other abilities)
6F: Cleave
8F: Combat Brute (Cwar: Sundering Cleave, and some more hitter-guy things)
9: Iron Will
10F: Quick Draw

If you get Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and Combat Brute, you can theoretically smash through an enemy's weapon or shield, into them, and then hit the next guy too. If you have Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, you have a pretty darn-good chance of smashing a weapon in one hit on a charge, as well as really hurt some people in the process.

Endurance is a prereq of Steadfast Determination, which makes your CON take the place of WIS when considering Will-save modifiers. This and Iron Will help your defensive abilities, while Quick Draw allows you to swap weapons with no delay.

Quick Draw is a good feat for a Fighter. It is important if you want to begin your fight on a mount with a lance, and then leap off afterwards (fast dismount) to bring down your goddamn-glorious-flaming-greataxe upon whoever is left after the dust clears on your next turn with a full attack. Also, it allows you to throw more than a single Javelin in a turn - which is useful against NPC wizards who like to wind-wall your arrows away. But, I'd also want a bow for scenarios where I want range. And you should have weapons for all DR types that can be penetrated via mundane means by this point (adamantine, silver, cold iron, plus one slashing, piercing, and blungeoning, or any combination thereof). Hell, being a Dwarf, I could use the Urgosh, and have each end enchanted differently to be more versatile.

If you're doing something like a 30 point-buy, you could presumably set up like this:

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 18 -->20 (+2 for level 4 and level 8 boosts)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 6

Give yourself both Strength and Constitution boosting items (say, a +2 to each) and you've got yourself a fair-enough strength, and enough HP to be annoying to just about any monster.

Also, your saves will be as follows:

Fort +13 (+15 vs spells)
Ref +5 (+7 vs spells)
Will +11 (+13 vs spells)

Yeah, Dwarves get +2 to all saves vs spells and spell-like abilities. Pretty awesome, huh? Don't forget to grab a cloak of resistance to be even more annoying.

The Ref may be low, but who cares about that when your HP is amazing? As a Fighter, you need reliable Fort and Will, and you have both at a point where the idea of any one spell targetting you doesn't immediately make you think "I'm screwed, forever".

So, I guess that's the Fighter I'd play if I were starting up in an ECL 10 game. If it were a higher point-buy, I'd consider being a Human and use my extra points to beef up CON to a similar value, grabbing Improved Initiative for my bonus feat. Going first is fun.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 03:27 PM
I like Fighters who are just plain badass. They're not flashy, swift, or trained-by-a-master. They don't use over-the-top maneuvers or have any sissy "artful" stances. :smallbiggrin:

Nor does the Warblade. The Warblade, thematically, is the exact same thing as a Fighter. The only difference is in the mechanics.


Folks, I know that the Fighter is suboptimal, but the OP specifically requested a Fighter build. If you can't deliver one, please move along.
I simply must know why Frosty specifically desires a fighter. I never viewed class choice as significant; That is, I don't view class as defining in any character that's actually going to be played. I view it as a road one takes to get to their concept.


"The Second Coming of the Meleessiah",
Meleesiah.. amusing term XD

SurlySeraph
2008-04-03, 03:33 PM
A lot of people are suggesting battlefield control fighters with spiked chains, I can never really enjoy spiked chain builds. They just seem too silly and implausible.

That's why you should dual-wield bastard swords. Or, better yet, Fullblades. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-04-03, 03:37 PM
Right, so just to clarify, when you said "fun fighter build" did you mean "a melee character" or "a fighter". Since the two are worlds apart and one can be fun and after 10th level, the other isn't.

I mean a build with no more than 30% of its levels being non-Fighter. So, in this case, the build can have 3 levels that if not named "Fighter"

The generic Warrior class from UA is an acceptable alternative.

Deepblue706
2008-04-03, 03:38 PM
Nor does the Warblade. The Warblade, thematically, is the exact same thing as a Fighter. The only difference is in the mechanics.

Well, Warblade is just a dumb name. Hitter-Man or Killing-You-Guy would have fit better. And do they have heavy-armor proficiency? I heard not. I don't own ToB. If this is true, then I forever dismiss them as lame.



I simply must know why Frosty specifically desires a fighter. I never viewed class choice as significant; That is, I don't view class as defining in any character that's actually going to be played. I view it as a road one takes to get to their concept.

Well, the rulebooks associate some class mechanics based on some fluff. For instance, Barbarians, by default, lack literacy.

I believe D&D classes are, to some degree, meant to be played into cliches. I accept that, because if I wasn't playing into cliches, the system should be classless and entirely skill-based. Ignoring the fluff basis and cherry picking classes to find the closest match to what you envision is clunky, at best.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 03:40 PM
I simply must know why Frosty specifically desires a fighter. I never viewed class choice as significant; That is, I don't view class as defining in any character that's actually going to be played. I view it as a road one takes to get to their concept.

Meleesiah.. amusing term XD

Mostly because Tome of Battle is not allowed, and it's been a while since I've played a character with classes primarily consisting of the second suckiest class in the PHB. I wanted to do something different I guess than all the Gishes and Incantators I've been using.

Oslecamo
2008-04-03, 03:49 PM
I simply must know why Frosty specifically desires a fighter. I never viewed class choice as significant; That is, I don't view class as defining in any character that's actually going to be played. I view it as a road one takes to get to their concept.



So, why were you so picky about the fighter some weeks ago in the fighters vs mages discussion?

Anyway, it's not only my 5 players. In the wotc CO boards, you see more fighter class based character requests than anything else. People want to play the fighter class, not some fancy anime themed class or lunatic bersekers. There is even a fighter handbook created by the fans, but there is still to exist a warblade handbook. I wonder why...Ah, yes, almost nobody plays warblades.

Squash Monster
2008-04-03, 03:51 PM
Goliath Monk 1 / Fighter 6 / Crusader 2:
Monk takes Decisive Strike variant from PHII
Make sure your crusader maneuvers include Thicket of Blades
1 - Power Attack
1m - Improved Grapple
2f - Improved Bullrush
3f - Combat Reflexes
3 - Knockback (RoS)
5f - Weapon Focus: Longspear
6 - Stand Still (XPH)
7f - Shock Trooper (CWar)
9 - Serpent Strike (EbCS)

Be in Thicket of Blades stance, use a longspear. If you hit something with Decisive Strike, you do double damage on attacks of opportunity. Use that and Stand Still to make it hard for things to move. Alternately, power attack to send people flying. Alternately, do both at once.

Two-trick pony, but they're both really fun and good tricks.

Brauron
2008-04-03, 03:53 PM
A build I've been playing around with a bit lately is a gladiator-type character fighting with a trident, net, and once the net is deployed, short sword.

Human for bonus skill points and feat.

First level's rogue for skill points and Tumble, Balance, Climb, Jump, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate and Perform (Weapons Drill) (CWar)

After that it's straight fighter.

Feats for the current version (which is ECL 10) are:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Net)
Weapon Focus (Trident)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Deft Opportunist (PHBII, I think)
Net and Trident Style (CWar)

It's far from optimized, but I like it...the only issue I've seen with it is MAD; he's in light armor so a high dex is a must, while as a melee-ist STR and CON should both be high as well, INT is important for skill points and CHA should be high so he can "play the crowds"

Xefas
2008-04-03, 04:04 PM
In the wotc CO boards, you see more fighter class based character requests than anything else.

Because they need serious optimization more than anyone else to be played effectively?



People want to play the fighter class, not some fancy anime themed class or lunatic bersekers

Oh my god, I had no idea that Warblades were simultaneously like an entire form of media spanning every genre that exists.

If that's the case, I'd much rather have my class be anime-themed than nonanime-themed. Do you know all the crap non-Anime is out there? Battlefield Earth? Movies starring Lindsey Lohan? Spongebob Squarepants?

Yes, Fighter, the nonanime class. Perfectly replicates such great non-anime hits as the Land Before Time Seventeen, and Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter.



There is even a fighter handbook created by the fans, but there is still to exist a warblade handbook. I wonder why...Ah, yes, almost nobody plays warblades.

If it aint broke, don't fix it?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 04:12 PM
Well, Warblade is just a dumb name. Hitter-Man or Killing-You-Guy would have fit better. And do they have heavy-armor proficiency? I heard not. I don't own ToB. If this is true, then I forever dismiss them as lame.
Oh Gods, a name argument. Good Morning. If you haven't figured out that you can rename classes, spells, feats, and anything else, in-character, to anything sensible, I have nothing to say on this count.


So, why were you so picky about the fighter some weeks ago in the fighters vs mages discussion?

Because the only concept a Fighter can do is "Run up and hit things in an utterly mundane fashion", without serious book diving. A Warblade will have the same basic themes as the fighter (Most notably, kicking ass through sheer bad-assery), but will manage feats impossible to a normal human at the same time (Notably in mobility).



Well, the rulebooks associate some class mechanics based on some fluff. For instance, Barbarians, by default, lack literacy.
Yeah but you can buy it within the mechanics at the same time.


wasn't[/I] playing into cliches, the system should be classless and entirely skill-based. Ignoring the fluff basis and cherry picking classes to find the closest match to what you envision is clunky, at best.

It is clunky, really, and it's a large part of why I have trouble playing DnD in the first place, though an increase in straight out Magic Melee classes (The term 'gish' bugs me, but.. I guess I should just use it..) has helped immensely. This doesn't change that I don't identify characters by their classes.




Yes, Fighter, the nonanime class. Perfectly replicates such great non-anime hits as the Land Before Time Seventeen, and Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter.
I recognize that Oslecamo is trying to turn this into an anime fight because he's got some sort of weird complex about it, but please don't sink to his level. Just stick to the relevant things, not him trying to make anime look bad which turns this into a god damned culture war and nobody wins those (Except in Civ4. Go Ind/Phi!)


Mostly because Tome of Battle is not allowed, and it's been a while since I've played a character with classes primarily consisting of the second suckiest class in the PHB. I wanted to do something different I guess than all the Gishes and Incantators I've been using.
Is there anything intrinsic about Fighters that you prefer, or are you just looking for good front line melee, sans the magic? I'm not much of an optimizer, but I do have this whip. I mean, all these books I never use, and I could dig through to help you find something.

Deepblue706
2008-04-03, 04:25 PM
Oh Gods, a name argument. Good Morning. If you haven't figured out that you can rename classes, spells, feats, and anything else, in-character, to anything sensible, I have nothing to say on this count.

You could go "Ahaha! That was a good one!"

Or just tell me it wasn't-so-funny a joke. Because, it was a joke.



Yeah but you can buy it within the mechanics at the same time.


Yar, but, it costs skill points and actually has an effect on how you build you character (even if not very significant).



It is clunky, really, and it's a large part of why I have trouble playing DnD in the first place, though an increase in straight out Magic Melee classes (The term 'gish' bugs me, but.. I guess I should just use it..) has helped immensely. This doesn't change that I don't identify characters by their classes.

I try not to as well, actually. Having an identity should not require it to be listed among my classes on my character sheet. It's just plain silly. Nevertheless, the system is such that it will encourage you to go with the rather rigid flow, because all classes are "balanced" because all of their abilities are considered. You can't take a level of Barbarian and decide "Rage isn't for me" and expect to be a very good Barbarian.

For the record, GURPS is my preferred gaming system.

Xefas
2008-04-03, 04:28 PM
I recognize that Oslecamo is trying to turn this into an anime fight because he's got some sort of weird complex about it, but please don't sink to his level. Just stick to the relevant things, not him trying to make anime look bad which turns this into a god damned culture war and nobody wins those (Except in Civ4. Go Ind/Phi!)

Sorry, I guess I'm just baited easily. :smallfrown:
I'll try not to do it anymore.

On the plus side, Frosty said we could use the Warrior generic class, so maybe something can be had of that. Pick Hide and Move Silently as class skills, load up on the Sneak Attack abilities, grab Craven and Disemboweling Strike as feats, and try out a Marrowcrushing Weapon?

Constitution damage galore!

Frosty
2008-04-03, 04:40 PM
Is there anything intrinsic about Fighters that you prefer, or are you just looking for good front line melee, sans the magic? I'm not much of an optimizer, but I do have this whip. I mean, all these books I never use, and I could dig through to help you find something.

Mostly people claim fighters sucks this and fighters suck that and to a degree I agree. Therefore, I just want to be able to find a build where it *is* possible to have a lot of fun as a fighter and still be competent in more than one specific area.

Smiley_
2008-04-03, 04:46 PM
Try this for a fighter build.

Weapon : Stone warhammer or other whacky thing or even a wooden greatclub.

Armor: Leather or dragonhide or stone or bark or other non-metal armor

Skills: Handle animal and ride

Equipment: Large (or medium if you are a small character) rust monster mount (treat with love and care). Young Rust monsters are 1,000 gp apiece and the training cost is 1,200 gp.

Feats: Mounted combat and all those feats. Power attack and so on.

Result: A great conversation piece if it ends up a faliure.

Keld Denar
2008-04-03, 05:00 PM
Equipment: Large (or medium if you are a small character) rust monster mount (treat with love and care). Young Rust monsters are 1,000 gp apiece and the training cost is 1,200 gp.


Oh look, Fluffy likes you. He thinks you smell nice. Don't be afraid, Fluffy won't bite you...

Ascension
2008-04-03, 05:26 PM
That's the widespread rumor. Presumably, they were supposed to get it at 6th level instead. But that's not how its written, and there hasn't been an errata. Also, its pretty easy to get Pounce via other means. Lion Totem is just the most popular. And its not like melee builds are powerful compared to casters, so why not give it to them?

Let me clarify. My problem isn't really with pounce. My problem is with Lion Totem Barbarian. It's overused in CharOp to the point that any non-ToB meleer is expected to have a first level dip in it. How in the world do you justify that from an in-character perspective? Is there some Lion-based tribe up in the mountains from which every single effective fighter descends? What if I want a melee character who isn't a barbarian? Who doesn't even like lions?!? According to CharOp, my only other choice is ToB. I'd like for there to be at least one fun build that doesn't rely on either. Please. For my sanity's sake.

But as long as we're talking barbarian dips... here's something I've always wanted to try. A rapier-wielding, dex-based, weapon-finessing barbarian built using the Cityscape web enhancement Ferocity feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Sure, spiked chain would be more optimal and still finesseable, but just the thought of this big hulking barbarian elegantly wielding a rapier amuses me to no end.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 05:30 PM
You could just hand-wave the fluff/name away. For example, as DM, I could say that the satndard barbarian level 1 class features are: Rage, illteracy, and Pounce instead of Rage, illteracy and Rage.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 05:41 PM
Let me clarify. My problem isn't really with pounce. My problem is with Lion Totem Barbarian. It's overused in CharOp to the point that any non-ToB meleer is expected to have a first level dip in it. How in the world do you justify that from an in-character perspective? Is there some Lion-based tribe up in the mountains from which every single effective fighter descends? What if I want a melee character who isn't a barbarian? Who doesn't even like lions?!? According to CharOp, my only other choice is ToB. I'd like for there to be at least one fun build that doesn't rely on either. Please. For my sanity's sake.


Easily, when you look at a class not as a metaphysical identifier, but simply as abilities to be had. It has nothing to do with trying to break the game or play to win, and everything to do with "The only thing that matters about this class is that the abilities it grants help my concept go from my head to the mechanical paper."

streakster
2008-04-03, 05:42 PM
Ah, a challenge to use the fighter class, then? All right, take 3 levels of warlock, then the rest of fighter. Then ignore your fighter levels (except to use them for a few things that might help with being a warlock - Improved Initiative, Dodge, Blind-Fighting - I'm sure there are more helpful things in other books), and play as a 3rd level warlock. Alternatively, do the same with a DFA.

Have fun!

Ascension
2008-04-03, 05:56 PM
Easily, when you look at a class not as a metaphysical identifier, but simply as abilities to be had. It has nothing to do with trying to break the game or play to win, and everything to do with "The only thing that matters about this class is that the abilities it grants help my concept go from my head to the mechanical paper."

Look, Rutee, I'm not anti-ToB, but out of three DMs I've played with since it came out, only one of them has allowed it. Not all of us have access to the warblade. That's why I'd like for there to be some way to make core fighters actually fight.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 05:58 PM
Look, Rutee, I'm not anti-ToB, but out of three DMs I've played with since it came out, only one of them has allowed it. Not all of us have access to the warblade. That's why I'd like for there to be some way to make core fighters actually fight.

Core? Not gonna happen. I wouldn't play a non-magical Fighter-type without at least PHB 2 + All of the Completes. Dungeonscape is nice too but not required.

Ascension
2008-04-03, 06:01 PM
Core? Not gonna happen. I wouldn't play a non-magical Fighter-type without at least PHB 2 + All of the Completes. Dungeonscape is nice too but not required.

I meant the core fighter class, not all-core feats. All core feats is an impossibility, I recognize that.

Personally, I'd say forget the fighter and go swashbuckler/rogue, but I generally prefer smart fighters over strong fighters anyway.

Deepblue706
2008-04-03, 07:03 PM
On the plus side, Frosty said we could use the Warrior generic class, so maybe something can be had of that. Pick Hide and Move Silently as class skills, load up on the Sneak Attack abilities, grab Craven and Disemboweling Strike as feats, and try out a Marrowcrushing Weapon?

Constitution damage galore!

I find those generic classes are a lot more fun than the default ones - the freedom to make a more personalized version of your own kinds of heroes without excessive homebrewing is something I value very much. Though, I guess it does take some consideration to determine what kind of class abilities are appropriate enough to be transferred to feat form, and how to tweak them accordingly. I wonder, do you think if there were more guidelines for this kind of play, would more people use the generic classes?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 07:07 PM
Look, Rutee, I'm not anti-ToB, but out of three DMs I've played with since it came out, only one of them has allowed it. Not all of us have access to the warblade. That's why I'd like for there to be some way to make core fighters actually fight.

If you checked what I Was quoting, you were talking about how there could possibly be an IC justification to go Lion Totem Barbarian. I was speaking strictly on that. I don't know where you're getting all this other stuff from.

Xefas
2008-04-03, 07:22 PM
I wonder, do you think if there were more guidelines for this kind of play, would more people use the generic classes?

Well, it's why I like using the Tome of Battle classes the most. The Generic Classes start you out with some generic bonuses and stuff and then you mix and match abilities from there. That's exactly what the Tome of Battle does, only they decided to tack on questionable fluff with otherwise perfectly solid, dynamic, and intuitive mechanics.

For instance, instead of picking "Do I want my fighter to have Sneak Attack this level, or Smite Evil?" you pick "Do I want my swordsage to have Sneak Attack, Smashy Brute Force Attack, Dual-Wielding Attack, Kick People Through Windows Attack, or do I want to stray slightly into the supernatural and do the Swing-So-Fast-The-Friction-Catches-My-Opponent-On-Fire Attack?"

Just a lot more customization options...

TempusCCK
2008-04-03, 10:35 PM
Anyone have a copy of the Agile Risposte feat handy, I'd like to see the prerequisites.

HOO
2008-04-04, 05:58 AM
I just flew over most of these post, but has this one been mentioned?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911167

Intimidate to the max! Perhaps too much equipment-dependent and/or setting-specific, but I think it allows personal customization and has some useful effects in and out of combat (espc. Zhent Warrior variant).
If I get the chance to play a fighter/melee guy again, it will be something like this :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

Eldariel
2008-04-04, 07:00 AM
Anyone have a copy of the Agile Risposte feat handy, I'd like to see the prerequisites.

Dex 13, Dodge, Weapon Finesse. Oh yeah, and it only works against your Dodge-target.

Fitz
2008-04-04, 07:06 AM
ok might not be the best ever, might not be exactly what your looking for , but should be fun.
Human fighter7/rogue3:
feats : Wepaon prof: improvised, power attack, improved trip, improved bull rush. combat expertise. improved unamred strike
lots of skills (1st level should be rogue) and 2d6 sneak attack, with a table.

the whole point of this is the fun you have using the environment as a weapon. in a bar, use a table as a greatclub, in the wilderness a 10' pole makes a quaterstaff , basically any fight you pick up something and use it as a wepaon. it's not optimal but there should be a variety of options and the inventiveness of using a flowerpot/chair/scroll case as a weapon is a lot of fun.
Fitz

riddles
2008-04-04, 08:53 AM
a dwarf charger build (power attack, leap attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper)
+3 levels of the stonelord prestige class from complete warrior.

will lower your hitpoints somewhat but gives you stoneskin as a SLA.

play a manic, danger lovin dwarf. leap into combat, burn every single point of your AC into power attack in the knowledge that you have dr 10/adamantine then start swinging with a full round attack

Person_Man
2008-04-04, 09:50 AM
Let me clarify. My problem isn't really with pounce. My problem is with Lion Totem Barbarian. It's overused in CharOp to the point that any non-ToB meleer is expected to have a first level dip in it. How in the world do you justify that from an in-character perspective? Is there some Lion-based tribe up in the mountains from which every single effective fighter descends? What if I want a melee character who isn't a barbarian? Who doesn't even like lions?!? According to CharOp, my only other choice is ToB. I'd like for there to be at least one fun build that doesn't rely on either. Please. For my sanity's sake.

Well, I agree that Lion Totem is certainly overplayed on the boards. And I agree with you general sentiment. But really, its just posters being lazy.

Tome of Battle classes get it as a maneuver.
Rangers, Druids, and Archivists get it as a spell.
Druids (and Wildshape Rangers) can get it when they Wildshape.
Anyone with access to Polymorph can get it.
There are about a dozen different PrC that offer it as a class feature.
Psionic classes can get pounce or Hustle as a power, or you can get it out of psionic items.

And anyone can ride a chariot or a wagon driven by someone else (an intelligent mount, a hireling, a summoned creature, another party member, whatever) which allows someone else to Move for you, allowing you to make a full attack every round. I've always been a big proponent of mounted halfling builds, because its an easy way to get defense, mobility, high charge damage, and the ability to do all of that while in a dungeon (thanks to your small size). But a chariot drawn halfling would be even cooler.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-04, 10:04 AM
Mostly Fighter, non-Ubercharger/chain-tripper

Elf (Wood or Wild, most likely; Wild is better though to avoid multiclass penalties; though another Elf type could be used by replacing Sorc with Wiz)

Fighter1 Point Blank, Focus
Sorcerer1
Fighter2 Precise, (feat)
Fighter3 (+1 stat)
Fighter4 (feat)
Fighter5 (feat)
Fighter6 (feat)
ArcaneArcher1 (+1 stat)
ArcaneArcher2 (feat)
ArcaneArcher3

Really, the sky is the limit here with what you want to do. This isn't really a gishy build, the spellcasting is just required for AA. Essentially you will never cast a spell, just use the various (non-spell-failure) abilities of the class. I personally envision this as being an Armored Tank. Wear Full Plate, take Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery, along with other feats to enhance that theme. Leadership might be a good choice to get some awesome mount; or something out of Draconomicon or the like to get a Dragon Mount. Flying around on Dragon-back firing off a hail of arrows is pretty full of win.

Another really interesting possibility over long term progression, if you can swing it, would be get Ashworm Dragoon in there so you can dive in sand pop up and fire off arrows. That reduces Fighter levels though.

Sticking strictly core and following the guidelines as closely as I can with this, you end up with say, 10 levels of AA, 9 Fighter and 1 Sorcerer. I know that's not what you want, so you could shift those numbers around. But, might as well go the whole way to arrow of death in AA; and it is a "fighter" build, at least mostly and is a fighter in spirit.

Indon
2008-04-04, 10:58 AM
Oh Gods, a name argument. Good Morning. If you haven't figured out that you can rename classes, spells, feats, and anything else, in-character, to anything sensible, I have nothing to say on this count.

So true.

So if you need a Fighter, you might as well just use a Divine Metamagic - Persist specialized Cleric, take the War and Strength domains, and rename its' class and spells appropriately (and use appropriate spells, of course). Bam, interesting Fighter!

Edit: I can't really seriously recommend a Wizard for the Fighter, though - the Wizard is a better replacement for the Barbarian.

Frosty
2008-04-04, 11:12 AM
I can see re-flavoring the cleric and his spells into non-magical abilities to do some sort of melee-type. But that's totally different from the Fighter flavor it doesn't work for this exercise.

streakster
2008-04-04, 11:30 AM
I can see re-flavoring the cleric and his spells into non-magical abilities to do some sort of melee-type. But that's totally different from the Fighter flavor it doesn't work for this exercise.

Fighter has flavor now? I knew I should check the erratas...

Indon
2008-04-04, 11:35 AM
Fighter has flavor now? I knew I should check the erratas...

The Fighter has flavor by exclusion. He doesn't use fancy spells or stunts or powers - he's just a guy with a weapon that kills things to death.

Frosty
2008-04-04, 11:43 AM
he's just a guy with a weapon that kills things to death.

Or dies trying.

Hal
2008-04-04, 01:28 PM
Well, you could be a Gnome/Halfling Frenzied Berserker and then get a Cohort who can throw allies. Have him launch you into a group of enemies and just let you Frenzy 'till you turn blue.

A feat I like that I've been trying to come up with a good build for is Throw Anything. As a flavor thing, I would find it amusing to take a non-throwing weapon and just chuck it at the enemy. Spice it up with Hurling Charger (as your charge attack, throw a weapon, then quick draw and charge) and Power Throw (power attack with thrown weapons) and you could at least have an interesting character.

I think someone posted something similar a few weeks ago with a guy who threw bastard swords at his enemies, but you can flavor to taste.

Bob the Urgh
2008-04-04, 02:19 PM
Go with fighter only feats and steadfast determination and armor spec stuff, won't be complicated, if dwarf feel free to soak up damage

Draz74
2008-04-04, 05:36 PM
Human Fighter

Wields a Halberd at low levels, a Guisarme and Spiked Armor for levels 4-5, and a Glaive and Spiked Armor thereafter.

Level 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Dungeoncrasher
Level 3: Combat Expertise
Level 4: Improved Trip
Level 6: Shock Trooper, Combat Focus
Level 8: Martial Study (Mountain Hammer)
Level 9: Blind-Fight
Level 10: Combat Vigor
(Level 12: Robilar's Gambit, Combat Awareness)

Simple, not a one-trick pony, and IMHO fun to play. Not uber-powerful, but functional. Plenty of other things you can subsitute for Mountain Hammer if you aren't allowed to use Tome of Battle.

Favorite trick: bull rush someone. Push them into someone else. Both of them fall down. Get to attack both of them. Decent battlefield control. (If you don't add in Knockback and insane reach, a la Homer, it's not cheesy or overpowered; it's totally the way Shock Trooper was supposed to be used.)

You can also be an Ubercharger Lite when you want to, especially after Level 12. (No Leap Attack keeps it from being as super-cheesy as the real Ubercharger.) Or if there are walls around, your most effective tactic is often simple ol' Dungeoncrasher. And you're a Lockdown Lite build too. Basically, you're jack-of-many-fighting-styles, master of none.

I'm kind of sad I couldn't fit in Elusive Target too. Very fun feat. Unfortunately requires Dodge and Mobility. :smallfrown:

Edit: A mediocre-power (but not really weak), fun Fighter is really not that hard to make. Just throw out the 75% of Fighter Feats that really suck, and pick your feats from the leftover ones. That still gives you at least a hundred to choose from. Then just remember a few basic bases you have to cover: make sure there's a reason opponents would want to attack you rather than your allies, and use feats or items or buffs to cover your biggest two weaknesses (mobility/flight and your Will save) as best you can.

Also, if you can convince the DM to allow Tome of Battle maneuvers but not classes, I've always been interested in seeing how good you can make a Fighter when you take almost no feats (past Level 1) except Martial Study and Martial Stance. Not as good as a Warblade, of course, but sounds fun! And can dip into all 9 disciplines, unlike a Warblade!

Rutee
2008-04-04, 05:51 PM
But a chariot drawn halfling would be even cooler.

STOP COMING UP WITH AMUSINGLY HILARIOUS IDEAS :E :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-04-04, 06:18 PM
Human Fighter

Wields a Halberd at low levels, a Guisarme and Spiked Armor for levels 4-5, and a Glaive and Spiked Armor thereafter.

Level 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes
Level 2: Dungeoncrasher
Level 3: Combat Expertise
Level 4: Improved Trip
Level 6: Shock Trooper, Combat Focus
Level 8: Martial Study (Mountain Hammer)
Level 9: Blind-Fight
Level 10: Combat Vigor
(Level 12: Robilar's Gambit, Combat Awareness)

This is exactly the kind of build I love; tons of versatility and some power too. I'd probably fix up the apparent flaws by dropping the Combat Focus-chain for Resolute ACF (lose half your BAB as an immediate action to get that much Will-save bonus) and Dungeon Crasher 2 (it takes 2nd and 6th feats). I'd also consider replacing Blind-Fight with something like Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm; that'd give you more alternatives. Alternatively, you could drop Blind-Fight to repick the Combat Focus-chain, along with probably Mountain Hammer when talking about ToBless game; Combat Focus can be amusing if you have the Wisdom to take it, although not that effective. Still, healing and Will-save boosts never hurt a Fighter.

I personally like to splash two levels of Monk; while it costs a point of BAB, the extra skillpoints enhance the 'nimble fighter'-feeling, and more importantly, you get the ability to kick some ass in an actual fight - screw Flurry and Wis to AC (although it doesn't hurt when you're caught unarmored), the point is just getting to hit harder and few feats. I feel every Fighter needs to know how to hit hard so getting the free IUS is pretty sweet and the damage die increase doesn't hurt either. Heck, pick up Superior Unarmed Strike and you'll have an unarmed damage to speak of, especially later on (Great Sword-fists FTW). Also, first two levels of Monk give two feats, so they act as fine proxies of Fighter-levels.

But yea, Tactical Feats are good since they give tons of options in what to do. Those along with BAB-allocation feats give you tons of versatility already.


Also, if you can convince the DM to allow Tome of Battle maneuvers but not classes, I've always been interested in seeing how good you can make a Fighter when you take almost no feats (past Level 1) except Martial Study and Martial Stance. Not as good as a Warblade, of course, but sounds fun! And can dip into all 9 disciplines, unlike a Warblade!

This idea needs a houserule to allow Martial Study to be taken more than 3 times (for Fighter-feats? Seems logical; Fighters can study Martial Disciplines extensively), but could be amusing, if almost strictly worse than an Adept-class.

Frosty
2008-04-04, 08:45 PM
What feats would you add if you could have 2 flaws?

Eldariel
2008-04-04, 09:04 PM
What feats would you add if you could have 2 flaws?

That depends on your stats. Do you have 13 Dex for Combat Reflexes-chain? 13 Int for Combat Expertise-chain? 13 Wisdom for Combat Focus-chain? If all of those are available, I'd toss in something like Mage Slayer (preparing to take Pierce Magical Protection later on) and the third Combat Focus-feat to enable the improved abilities of the feats (Combat Awareness is good for locating invisibles, especially with some degree of movement).

Alternatively, Improved Sunder and Combat Brute.

You could also consider Mounted Combat > Ride-By Attack > Spirited Charge if you're interested in fighting on a mount on occasions.

Finally, Improved Grapple isn't a horrible option, especially if you have a decent unarmed damage. Close-Quarter Fighting is handy if you don't want to get into grapple. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Something Funny could also be amusing.

Blood-Spiked Charger Tactical Feat from PHBII and building a character around Armor Spikes and Spiked Shield (plus Shield Bashing) could be incredibly amusing too.

There're just billions of options to choose from. Shorter chains > longers and Tactical feats > Normals as far as having an enjoyable game experience goes though.

TempusCCK
2008-04-04, 11:50 PM
Alright, here's the idea for my build.

Human: Dodge
Flaw1: EWP (Spiked Chain) / EWP (Elven Courtblade)
Flaw2: Weapon Finesse
Fighter1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
Fighter 2: Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter3: Improved Trip
Fighter 4: Defensive Throw (CWar)
Fighter5: AH-NOTHING! (Strong Bad)
Fighter6: Agile Riposte (Dragon 305)
Fighter7: See Fighter 5
Fighter8: Melee Evasion (PHBII)
Fighter9: Power Attack
Fighter10: that Feat that lets you choose a new dodge target as an immediate or free action.

So, your goal in combat is to remain untouched, while generating as many AoO's from people swinging at you as possible. Even though Spiked Chain or the Courtblade cost you a feat, you can power attack and finesse with both, which synergizes well with this builds goal.

Basically, anyone who comes at you to swing while you fight defensively and misses generates and immediate AoO with Agile Riposte, or an immediate trip attempt, and an AoO for the trip from IMproved Trip. Not only that, but they're prone now too, and trying to get up provokes as well. Defending weapons are your friends. With the feat that lets you choose a new dodge target quickly, I believe you could use Agile Riposte on several different enemies in one round, assuming they attack you at different points in the initiative order. They do not need to be the target of your dodge for you to use Defensive Throw against them, nor is there anything in Defensive Throw that states you can't make said trip attempt with a weapon in your hand, though the prereqs might imply otherwise.

The way I see this in my head is a big guy in armor, standing on a battlefield as people come at him, and just knocking the crap out of them whenever they miss, and chucking them to the ground too. Effective against many lower level mooks and also against higher levels. Melee Evasion also lets you negate the attack of one enemy against you, so even if you can't get them all with your AoO's for the round, you can still avoid taking his damage and deal with him the next if need be.

As you can see, it's not very feat intensive, and the inclusion of Power Attack would let you continue further with Dungeon Crasher or Leap Attack-Shock Trooper later on, so you can get the big damage out of being offensive too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-04, 11:57 PM
You may want Evasive Reflexes, too. If you have the Spiked Chain, that alone should be enough to keep you safe and pouring out the damage.

TempusCCK
2008-04-05, 12:42 AM
Eh, and I don't think that it would work with Agile Riposte. Turn your Agile Riposte into Agile Step away?

Thrawn183
2008-04-05, 11:11 AM
Hmmm, I don't know how the rules on chariots work. Would you treat it the same way you would a normal mount? Anyway, that's a frickin' sweet idea.

Here's something I'm throwing out. I'm gonna see if I can combine two of my favorite fighter concepts into 1 build (if only I had a few more feats to work with!)

Goliath Fighter 9
1) Improved Bullrush, Point Blank Shot
2) Dungeon Crasher
3) Precise Shot
4) Rapid Shot
6) Dungeon Crasher Pt. 2, Ranged Pin
8) Power Attack
9) Knockback

Hmmm, didn't come out as pretty as I'd wanted :smallconfused: . You won't be able to put many points into con as they will have to go to dex instead, but you should be able to keep people away from you for the most part. (The order of most of the feats can be shifted a bit)

If I had more levels to work with, I'd take the barbarian sub level mountain rage to get a little bit of reach, but I think this is just about all the bare bone essentials you'd need to pull this off. If anyone is concerned I recommend 4 levels in barbarian so you get rage 2/day (I think it's at level 4?)

hamishspence
2008-04-05, 11:25 AM
lion totem barbarian:

Which sourcebook is it in? I only saw it in Unearthed arcana, and it did not have pounce. it had run feat, then +2 Hide, then +2 damge on charge.

Snow Tiger Lodge feat from Unapproachable East does have pounce, but you do need to be from Rashemen to take it.

KIDS
2008-04-05, 11:57 AM
I'll be the umpteenth to say Warblade. Sorry.

Ok, ok, let's say that we try to do a fighter who does many different things (hopefully with some competency) during a battle. By "FUN" I automatically dismiss chain tripper and goliath bullrush things because they rely on doing the same thing over and over and over since they have one option that's always the best. They might be fun from a "I pwn everything" point, but not from versatility.
In case of core only it would be a lost cause, but let's add some PHB2 and Completes. We get something like this:

(note: final stats assume lvl 20 wealth, roughly distributed to stat boosters and such. Also some numbers may be flawed but this is just a mental excercise)


ELF FIGHTER 1 -> 20

STR 14
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 13
CHA 8

1. Combat Expertise
1. Improved Disarm
2. Dodge
3. Karmic Strike
4. Power Attack
6. Improved Unarmed Strike
6. Mobility
8. Improved Bull Rush
9. Shock Trooper
10. Leap Attack
12. Combat Reflexes
12. Robilar's Gambit
14. Elusive Target
15. Close-Quarters Fighting
16. Improved Trip (from flaw, preferrably Vulnerable as it fits a feigned opening style)
16. Overpowering Attack (Substitution)
18. Combat Focus
18. Combat Vigor
----------------- further than this only if you're staying fighter but finishing off with 2 levels of swordsage is much more versatile----
20. Combat Defense
20. Improved Grapple (from flaw 2)

Over the course of levels, we end up with a warrior who has these things:

-disarm
-unarmed fighting
-trip
-fast healing 4
-immune to power attack
-chain-trip (Elusive Target)
-retaliation 1 (Karmic Strike)
-retaliation 2 (Robilar's)
-double damage AoOs
-immune to grapple or grappling to death, depending on opponent size
-triple damage charge
- strong will save
- all attacks are linkable together: example: charge someone with Shock Trooper, then run through a group of enemies to trip them all with Elusive Target, then stand ground and retaliate in a flurry of 2x dmg AoOs, grapple someone who remains, etc... all should be equally viable against similar CR targets.
----------------------- and possible Switchable Dodge

lvl 20 (FTR 18/SWSG 2):

STR 26 (+8)
DEX 22 (+6)
CON 22 (+6)
INT 14 (+2)
WIS 18 (+4)
CHA 14 (+2)

EQUIPMENT: stat boosters, cloak +5, amulet of natural attacks +4, tomes, possible custom things, true seeing item
SKILLS: Diplomacy (CC), Use Magic Device (CC), Tumble (CC), Jump/Swim/Climb
(note: sadly, fighter is a class that does not lend itself to versatility well, as we can see from above skills, even combat-related ones)
SAVES: Fortitude +22, Reflex +20, Will +18
HP: 10+102+10+120=242
AC: 10 base +8 mithril breastplate +5 wis (if Swordsage) +6 dex +2 dodge +2 natural +3 deflection = 36 (41 when fighting defensively)
GRAPPLE: +31 (avg. +45 when on defense)
BAB: 19 or 20
ATTACKS:
Unarmed Strike +31, 1d3+12, 20/x2, bludgeoning (single)
Unarmed Strike +31, 2d3+24, 20/x2, bludgeoning (full attacK or AoO)
Unarmed Strike +33, 1d3+52 (AC = 16), bludgeoning (charge)
+5 Ranseur +32 melee, 2d4+17, 20/x3, piercing, reach (single)
+5 Ranseur +34 melee, 2d4+57, 20/x3, piercing, reach (charge)
Trip check = +12 (+17 w. Enlarge)
Disarm check = +32 (+37 w. Enlarge)
MANEUVERS: Depends if Swordsage is allowed

Anyways, this is the closest to "many options" I can get to with fighter class. I don't count archery because even without any feats it's already effective and depends on splitting bows more than feats.

And sadly, even one or two levels of warblade would give much more viable options than this. Even I admit that one.

Eldariel
2008-04-05, 12:38 PM
Splitting Bow requires Precise Shot. Also, you need Rapid Shot to claim it to be efficient.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-05, 01:54 PM
But can it do anything else except bullrushing people into walls?

There's the floor as well.

Riffington
2008-04-05, 01:56 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74889

Draz74
2008-04-05, 03:13 PM
This is exactly the kind of build I love; tons of versatility and some power too. I'd probably fix up the apparent flaws by dropping the Combat Focus-chain for Resolute ACF (lose half your BAB as an immediate action to get that much Will-save bonus) and Dungeon Crasher 2 (it takes 2nd and 6th feats). I'd also consider replacing Blind-Fight with something like Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm; that'd give you more alternatives. Alternatively, you could drop Blind-Fight to repick the Combat Focus-chain, along with probably Mountain Hammer when talking about ToBless game; Combat Focus can be amusing if you have the Wisdom to take it, although not that effective. Still, healing and Will-save boosts never hurt a Fighter.

Actually I took Blind-Fight entirely because it's a prerequisite for Combat Awareness, so if I was to drop the Combat Focus feat tree from the build, Blind-Fight would definitely go too.

Where is Resolute from? That does make it seem like dropping the whole Combat Focus feat tree (which was already the weak point in my build) is more tempting.

And I forgot about needing another feat for upgraded Dungeoncrasher. That makes it an even better idea to drop Combat Focus & co.

I don't like Improved Sunder, because you're destroying valuable loot when you use it. Improved Disarm is great, but only in a campaign where you fight lots of NPCs rather than monsters.


I personally like to splash two levels of Monk; while it costs a point of BAB, the extra skillpoints enhance the 'nimble fighter'-feeling, and more importantly, you get the ability to kick some ass in an actual fight - screw Flurry and Wis to AC (although it doesn't hurt when you're caught unarmored), the point is just getting to hit harder and few feats. I feel every Fighter needs to know how to hit hard so getting the free IUS is pretty sweet and the damage die increase doesn't hurt either. Heck, pick up Superior Unarmed Strike and you'll have an unarmed damage to speak of, especially later on (Great Sword-fists FTW). Also, first two levels of Monk give two feats, so they act as fine proxies of Fighter-levels.

Add in Snap Kick, and I'll like this idea. It certainly helps the Will Save issue.

Hmmm. This doesn't quite fit the OP's specifications, since it's only 60% fighter and uses ToB feats; and it requires the Fractional BAB rule; and it needs at least 13 in almost every ability score; but how's this look for a fighter type?

Human
Level 1: Monk - Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 2: Psychic Warrior - Power Attack, Grip of Iron power
Level 3: Monk - Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush
Level 4: Psychic Warrior - Practiced Manifester, Expansion power
Level 5: Fighter - Superior Unarmed Strike
Level 6: Fighter - Dungeoncrasher, Shock Trooper
Level 7: Fighter
Level 8: Fighter - Snap Kick
Level 9: Fighter - Evasive Reflexes
Level 10: Fighter - Improved Dungeoncrasher
(Level 12: Fighter - Robilar's Gambit, Leap Attack)


This idea needs a houserule to allow Martial Study to be taken more than 3 times (for Fighter-feats? Seems logical; Fighters can study Martial Disciplines extensively), but could be amusing, if almost strictly worse than an Adept-class.

Yeah. Seems like it might be a good compromise between players who like ToB, and DMs who think ToB is overpowered.

Eldariel
2008-04-05, 03:27 PM
Resolute ACF is from Complete Champion, replaces any even level feat. Combat Focus-chain isn't horrible; some additional Will-saves, some self-healing and the ability to pinpoint nearby Invisibles can solve a number of problems. It's just boring since it does nothing but improve your basic combat ability instead of giving your extra options.

TempusCCK
2008-04-05, 04:35 PM
YOu can take a look at my Combat Focus feats in the homebrew, I'd consider them pretty fun, if lacking in refinement a bit.

Frosty
2008-04-05, 11:06 PM
Thanks guys, you gave me lots of great ideas. A lot of these buids require the spiked chain. It really *is* the best weapon I guess...

Deepblue706
2008-04-05, 11:14 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74889

A link to one of supreme fighter examples? I am honored!

Frosty
2008-04-05, 11:22 PM
I wonder if it would be fine to give Fighters the entire Weapon Focus chain all the way to Weapon Supremancy for free as they gain fighter levels. Maybe get Supremacy at level 16 or something.

Ninjalitude
2008-04-05, 11:30 PM
fighter 1/wizard 9? :smalltongue:

Draz74
2008-04-06, 12:06 AM
Thanks guys, you gave me lots of great ideas. A lot of these buids require the spiked chain. It really *is* the best weapon I guess...

Nah. Not really needed, and often cliche. A martial reach weapon (e.g. Glaive is a favorite) will do you fine, as long as you have a backup way to attack adjacent squares (spiked armor being the easiest).

Maybe a little sub-par at higher levels, because you have to spend money on two weapons instead of one. Then again, maybe that's not actually a bad thing. A +4 weapon and a +3 weapon, together, cost as much as a single +5 weapon, and that's a total of +5 worth of enhancements instead of +4. You just can't apply all of your weapon enhancements on the same attack, but you can pick and choose between the two depending on what opponent you're facing. (Demon? I'll get up-close and use my Holy Cold Iron Armor Spikes. Githzerai? Holy won't do much good. I'll just use my Keen Flaming Shock Glaive instead.)

TempusCCK
2008-04-06, 01:59 AM
The reason why the spiked chain is the "best" is because it lets you do alot of things that are going to be useful for many builds, it's finesseable, able to be used with Power Attack, good for Trips (which is essential for battlefield control), and offers reach. The balancing factor should be weapon speed, but that was removed from 3.x, so now you can swing your big old spiked chain just as quickly as your average dagger.

If you want the highest damage, your best bet is UberCharger with a Lance, if you want the most versatility, Spiked Chain if your option. If you wanted to make it more (gasp, will someone please think of the catgirls) realistic, you should only recieve the various bonuses with it after you attain a greater level of training with it, such can be reflected easily with the sub-par weapon focus and weapon specialization feats.

Really, any reach weapon is probably going to be your best bet, Spiked Chain just increases your options just a little bit more, giving you that damage and versatility option.