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Bosaxon
2008-04-03, 04:28 PM
I have in mind a concept for a grappler barbarian, including the Black Blood Cultist prc. I want to know if there is any feats that can improve my grapple modifier or give any benefit to my use of natural weapons or rage while grappling. I'd prefer to stick to a human if at all possible.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 04:45 PM
I suggest you look into the Bear totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) from UA. After that, Bear Warrior (CW) can be a nice grappler, or other PrCs (not reaping mauler! You can't be large or larger and take that class, so it's a liability for grapplers). Really there aren't very many feats that you need (and the one you do is granted by the variant). IUS is one you will need though, and Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) will net you a decent unarmed damage. A Necklace of Natural Attacks (SS) will make your US a magic weapon allowing it to be enhanced (and is much cheaper than the Amulet of Mighty Fists). Anything that increases str or grapple modifier is needed, and size increases are very welcome (if not necessary).

Gaiwecoor
2008-04-03, 04:49 PM
I actually don't know of too many, aside from Improved Grapple and the Weapon Focus tree for unarmed strikes. The Mutants and Masterminds system (another d20 system) has some decent ones (you may recognize some of them as monster abilities):

Chokehold - If you pin an opponent, you can apply a chokehold, causing your opponent to begin suffocating for as long as you maintain the pin.

Grappling Finesse - You can use your Dexterity bonus, rather than your Strength bonus, to make grapple checks. You retain your dodge bonus to defense [essentially Dex bonus to AC] against all opponents while grappling.

Improved Grab - When you hit with an unarmed attack you can immediately start a grapple against that opponent as a free action. The opponent must be no larger than your size. Your unarmed attack inflicts normal damage and counts as the initial attack roll required to start grappling.

Improved Grapple - You can make grappling attacks with only one hand, leaving the other free. If you pin your opponent, you can maintain the pin while still using your other hand to perform actions. [I know, this one is entirely different than the one in PHB. Perhaps we should call it One-handed Grapple?]

Improved Pin - Your grappling attacks are particularly difficult to escape. Opponents suffer a -4 penalty on grappling checks against you to escape a grapple or pin.

That system doesn't really have prerequisites for feats, but with DM approval, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they should be for these ones.

Anyhow, I've built some awesome grappling characters in that system with those feats. Those, plus the PHB's Improved Grapple give you six feats to choose from when making a grappling character; more if you count Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike).

Other than that, there might be something in Complete Warrior. I don't have that one, though - maybe somebody else can clear that up. It's my understanding that grappling is largely ignored in D&D.

Kudos, dman. I had totally forgotten about the barbarian totems. That'll be the way to do it.

I'm pretty sure all that is OGC. If anybody thinks otherwise, let me know and I'll redact appropriately.

Bosaxon
2008-04-03, 05:03 PM
Edit for quote

Bear totem

Completely missed this one. I really don't need the uncanny dodges, fast movement, or trap sense. Thanks

Annarrkkii
2008-04-03, 06:06 PM
Look at WotC revised grappling rules (Part One (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a
),
Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a), Part Three (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a
), Part Four (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a))—they are an improvement over the old. Not a HUGE one, but a step in the right direction as far as options in a grapple go. Still wildly complicated, though.

Extend Rage is probably a good call, since grappling isn't always the quickest way to take a foe down. Look into various methods of self-expansion, be it Psychic Warrior levels, friendlies' buffs, potions, or Bear Warrior. Or something else. Getting bigger is the best plan. The Martial Stance feat to get Crushing Weight of the Mountains can be a good call, though it requires burning a feat for Martial Study to get a lower-level Stone Dragon maneuver (I'd recommend a Vise maneuver or some similar attack that can keep foes in your area at all times). I few levels of Warblade is a good alternative, as well, and will greatly increase your versatility—because you can't always grapple.

Reaping Mauler is a disappointment, really, so don't be tempted into it. Justiciar is probably better, really, and it's nothing impressive, and doesn't fit your concept at all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-03, 06:19 PM
1 or 2 level dip into Warblade for Stone Dragon stances and Maneuvers is always a good idea for a grappler, who should both be on the ground and not move a lot.

Bosaxon
2008-04-03, 06:36 PM
Edit for Comment

because you can't always grapple.


True, especially things larger than yourself. I patched this with leap attack on top of a greatsword.

Also, I don't have ToB. Just doesn't sound interesting, at least to me. Melee classes are what they are in core, and I'm just fine with that.

Darrin
2008-04-04, 08:05 AM
Completely missed this one. I really don't need the uncanny dodges, fast movement, or trap sense. Thanks

You can also combine this with the City Brawler variant from Dragon #349. Lose martial weapons, medium armor, and heavy armor proficiency. Gain Improved Unarmed Strike, and TWF: Unarmed Strike only.

Unfortunately, you're stuck with 1d3 unarmed strike damage, unless you pick up Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) or a PrC/class that gives you something similar to a monk's unarmed strike. Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) or Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) works pretty well, and from there you can improve your damage with Improved Natural Attack. Magic of Incarnum also has some interesting buffs for unarmed strikes/natural attacks, if you can figure out the wonky soulmeld mechanics (including another way to get Pounce, via Sphinx Claws).

Pick up Scorpion's Grasp ASAP... essentially, a feat version of Improved Grab (ex).

Person_Man's got a combo that uses the Knifefighter feat (from Player's Guide to Faerun):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51865

This allows you to full-attack in a grapple with a light weapon (doesn't have to be a knife, can be an unarmed attack.)

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-04, 08:18 AM
Play a Mind Flayer.

Seriously- there's a useful combat style feat, can't remember the book unfortunately, that involves TWF with axe and dagger; it basically gives you the Improved Grab ability, if I remember correctly.

dman11235
2008-04-04, 08:58 AM
Uh, you can already full attack while grappling. That feat is useless.

Armads
2008-04-04, 09:18 AM
Shape Soulmeld (mauling gauntlets) gives you a massive bonus to grapple checks (from MoI)

Alternatively, you could take Shape Soulmeld and shape Claws of the Wyrm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4), which gives you more claws without the need of any binds. You do need to have the dragonblood subtype, though, so the Silverbrow Human subrace should be used.

Person_Man
2008-04-04, 09:24 AM
The advice and link that Darrin gave you are solid.

But allow me to ask, do you want an effective Grapple build, or do you want a Barbarian/Black Blood Cultist?

When optimized, using Grapple is a very effective way to deal a ton of damage.

But Barbarian/BBC isn't very good at it. Your unarmed damage barely goes up. And they can't qualify for Touch of Golden Ice (amazing at low levels, cruddy at high levels because the Save DC never goes up), which is an Exalted feat.

Darrin
2008-04-04, 10:18 AM
Uh, you can already full attack while grappling. That feat is useless.

Yes, but while the "Attack Your Opponent" option under the Grapple rules allows iterative attacks, it incurs a -4 penalty. Knifefighter wouldn't get the penalty. Also, since Knifefighter grants a full attack action, it would allow extra attacks from TWF, flurry, Speed weapons, etc. (At least, I think it might. There may be an argument that it doesn't.)

Bosaxon
2008-04-04, 11:25 AM
The advice and link that Darrin gave you are solid.

But allow me to ask, do you want an effective Grapple build, or do you want a Barbarian/Black Blood Cultist?

When optimized, using Grapple is a very effective way to deal a ton of damage.

But Barbarian/BBC isn't very good at it. Your unarmed damage barely goes up. And they can't qualify for Touch of Golden Ice (amazing at low levels, cruddy at high levels because the Save DC never goes up), which is an Exalted feat.


Exalted, and anything good aligned, is out of the question. I intend on playing a CE killer whose MO is something of a hunt and slaughter of his prey by his hands alone. Grappling is mostly for the strangehold and savage grapple class features. I'd admit it's a weaker than average build, but hey, who says we can't have a bit of fun with it?

Annarrkkii
2008-04-04, 05:54 PM
Person_Man, you have me intrigued. I have to admit, I've never done much reading on grappling CO, so I'm no expert, but I always thought that Barbarian / Psychic Warrior was one of the better basic grappling builds out there. Barbarian / BBC maybe not as much, but what are the really outstanding ones? Aside from anything shapechangey, and excepting that Knifefighter build, what beats out a Huge-sized, raging person with near-full BAB and pumped STR?

nargbop
2008-04-05, 05:02 PM
Make sure you have another method of dealing damage available while you're grappling, because Barbarian's unarmed damage does not increase. For instance, there's some masks in Magic Item Compendium that spew acid or fire or such.
There's a large number of items that grant damage on successful grapple. There's also a barbarian prestige class, the Frenzied Berserker?, that actually catches on fire when raging.