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kentma57
2008-04-03, 05:43 PM
We all know that the monk could be a little better, what I want is a class designed for unarmed combat, it should lean away from meditation and towards physical training. What I think it should have is; full Base Attack, furry of blows, no alignment restriction, AC bonus (possibly only while unarmed).

Does anyone else have suggestions?

dman11235
2008-04-03, 05:46 PM
Sure, here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=903329) Built by Witch, the Martial Artist. Either that or the unarmed swordsage variant. Or just take the monk and PrC out ASAP. If you need help, I'm a monk expert.

kentma57
2008-04-03, 05:55 PM
Sure, here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=903329) Built by Witch, the Martial Artist. Either that or the unarmed swordsage variant. Or just take the monk and PrC out ASAP. If you need help, I'm a monk expert.

Wow that is really good, I might change a few things for use in my next game but, it is great...

EDIT: I would probably give it full base attack, change the AC bonus = 1/2 your class level, change the will save to be a bad stat, drop Slippery Mind, Spell Resistance and Transcendence from the Martial Technique list.

EDIT2: the monk does not recive Wis bonus to attack.

EDIT3: probably replace the Spell Resistance and Transcendence on the Technique list with some form of damage reduction...

dman11235
2008-04-03, 07:38 PM
Note how this variant allows you to still be the still mind mystic monk that the PHB has... That's the point of having those. So you can still do the mysticism thing. I think it's fine the way it is. It's got a nice design, it's balance is about 5 on a scale of 1-10 (0 being unplayably underpowered and 10 being unplayably overpowered), but there are a couple abilities that need to be fixed. You'll note what my suggestions were if you continued to read on to the second page.

kentma57
2008-04-03, 08:00 PM
You'll note what my suggestions were if you continued to read on to the second page.

Thanks, I will take a look.

Darkantra
2008-04-03, 09:49 PM
I like the Martial Artist class, I'm guessing that the martial techniques are ToB esque abilities which add a nice chunk of flavor to the class. (I'm going to have to read that one of these days...) I made my own rework a while ago and I always like getting feedback, so here it is. I've only included the changed or new adaptions for simplicity's sake.

Skills: (Reworked)
Monks have the same skill selection, but gain 6 points per level instead of 4.

Introspection (Ex): (Replaces AC Bonus)
Monks train not only their bodies to perfection, but also the minds control over the body. They may not be as lithe as a thief or as strong as a warrior but their superior level of control enables them to reach heights of skill unmatched by other classes

A monk applies their Wis bonus (if any) to their attack bonus and AC, and gains an additional +1 bonus to AC at 5th level and every five levels thereafter. The AC bonuses are applicable for touch attacks and even when the monk is caught flat-footed.

In addition the monk can apply their Wis bonus to the following combat maneuvers, Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun and Trip instead of the regular Str or Dex modifiers and gain a +1 bonus to those maneuvers every four levels. A monkís unarmed strike can be considered a light weapon, or a regular weapon.

This bonus does not apply if the monk is wearing any armor or shields or is carrying a medium or heavy load.

Wholeness of Body (Su): (Reworked)
At 7th level a monk can focus on their wounds and force broken bone and torn muscle back into place through sheer will. They can heal a number of points of damage equal to their monk level multiplied by their Wisdom bonus (minimum 1, therefore a 9th level Monk with 18 Wis would have 36 points of healing in their pool). In order to do this though they must take a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. If an opponent damages them with an attack of oportunity then the monk must succeed on a DC 10 + damage dealt concentration check or else fail their healing. A failed attempt does not use up points from their healing pool. They can only use this ability on themselves, and can spread the amount over several uses.

Panther's Strike (Ex): (New)
At 8th level monks can charge into melee with several opening strikes in a brief flurry. Whenever a monk takes the charge action, at the end when they would normally make a single attack against an opponent they can take a full attack instead.

This ability cannot be used in conjunction with the flurry of blows class ability, or if the monk wears medium or heavy armor, shields, or carries a medium or heavy load.

Extrospection (Ex): (New)
By 10th level the monk's awareness extends outwards from their body and they can detect even minute changes within this area. The monk gains Blindsense out to 30 ft. At 18th level the monk's awareness has reached perfection. A mental image of all that enter their Extrospection range forms in their mind, allowing them to strike at foes unseen or those who try to hide from their regular sight. The monk gains Blindsight out to 30 ft.

Abundant Step (Su): (Reworked)
At 12th level a monk can shunt their body through space by expending a portion of their mental focus into an extreme effort of will. This ability functions as if using the spell dimension door at a caster level equal to 1/2 their monk level but only once per meditation. By meditating for 10 minutes and succeeding on a DC 20 concentration check or by resting for 8 hours, the monk can regain their focus.

Quivering Palm (Su): (Reworked)
At 15th level a monk can implant a portion of his will into another creature's body. If the monk chooses to focus on that portion of their self then they can forcibly kill the creature through the supernatural connection between the two of them. Quivering Palm can be used once per day, and the monk must announce that they are using it before making the attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected by this technique.

Otherwise if a monk succesfully strikes and deals damage to a creature then the Quivering Palm is successful. The monk can then attempt to kill the creature within a number of days equal to their class level. The monks Quivering Palm can affect only one creature at any time. Once the monk wills the portion of their essence to kill the creature it must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wis modifier) or die. If the save is successful then nothing happens.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 10:27 PM
The Martial Artist I linked? It's nothing like ToB. ToB maneuvers are closer to spells than this. And they aren't like spells. I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but I didn't really like ToB. It's alright, but it doesn't appeal to me as much as it does to others.

Also, post your remake in a new thread. I can say that it is overpowered.

Stycotl
2008-04-03, 11:38 PM
I can say that it is overpowered.

ok. you can say that, sure. but that doesn't mean that it is. first of all, darkantra, write the whole thing out so that we can see what abilities this replaces, and so we can see exactly what we are getting, all in one nice package.

same goes for kentma. writing things like this out helps give you, the creator, an idea of what it is you are really trying to do, and gives us, the critics/playtesters, an idea of how it works.

dark, i am curious to see what the final package looks like.

kent, opinions vary. some say that the monk is already golden as is. some say that it needs a major overhaul. you seem to be one of the ones kinda in the middle, who thinks it needs only a little tinkering. that's fine. i've seen more monk remakes on this board than probably anything else in my short time here. so obviously people are divided on what it needs. your suggestions are in line with what a lot of other people want for the class as well.

i am one of the ones that thinks that the core monk is going in two different directions at once. a maneuverability master... that focuses on full attack. ?.?.? didn't make any sense to me. so i built my variant around spring attack. i know a lot of people dislike spring attack, because of its subpar performance compared to full-attacking the pants off of an enemy, but i think that it can stand toe to toe with, or at least dance around, many foes of equal level. check it out, he's in my homebrew sig.

ok, done with the blatant advertising. so far, good job. i think both of them would look good if fleshed out a bit more.

aaron out.

dman11235
2008-04-03, 11:42 PM
I say it's overpowered because it's getting wis to attack and combat maneuvers at level 1. In addition to strength (or dex on attack or wis on attack with wp fin or Intuitive Attack respectively).

And that is the biggest flaw in monk design, aside from the inability to keep players taking the class past level 6.

Stycotl
2008-04-04, 12:49 AM
i'd say let's let him put it together, see how it stacks up in an actual level progression, and then start tinkering with it. and wis mod to a few maneuvers doesn't strike me as overly powerful. certainly no more so than a warblade's maneuvers in my book, even at first level. and that bonus gets more and more unimportant as the levels increase, even when the wis mod grows.

Darkantra
2008-04-04, 12:49 AM
Sorry, I misread the first post to say that kentma57 was looking for other ideas for rebuilding the monk, rather than asking for concrete examples of a class that does what he wanted.

Mainly, my variant was keeping with the fluff of what wizards tried to advertise monks as. Being a combat specialist doesn't mean much when mook fighters and warriors can beat your grapple and trip attempts without breaking a sweat even when they aren't focused towards those special attacks.

Having the Wis modifier added to attack may be a bit much and with more review I may just take it out, but I think that the extra aid for special attacks fits right in with what they should be.

kentma57
2008-04-04, 08:32 AM
Having the Wis modifier added to attack may be a bit much.

I don't see where it says they get wisdom to atttack, but I would drop that, my Martial Artist leans away from the use of Wis as a key stat.(and it might be over powered)

kentma57
2008-04-05, 08:54 AM
Martial Artist(Revised Monk)
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The monkís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Table: The Martial Artist

Martial Artist
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Unarmed Damage*|AC Bonus|Unarmored Speed Bonus

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Unarmed Strike; Flurry of Blows; Martial Technique|
1d6|
+0|
+5ft

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Evasion; Slow Fall 10 ft.|
1d6|
+1|
+5ft

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Versatile Unarmed Strike|
1d6|
+1|
+10ft

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Martial Technique; Slow Fall 20 ft.|
1d8|
+2|
+15ft

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Heavy Blows (magic)|
1d8|
+2|
+15ft

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Stunning Fist, Slow Fall 30 ft.|
1d8|
+3|
+20ft

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat |
1d8|
+3|
+25ft

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Martial Technique; Slow Fall 40 ft.|
1d10|
+4|
+25ft

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Improved Evasion|
1d10|
+4|
+30ft

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Slow Fall 50 ft.|
1d10|
+5|
+35ft

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Greater Flurry|
1d10|
+5|
+35ft

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Martial Technique; Slow Fall 60 ft.|
2d6|
+6|
+40ft

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Bonus Feat|
2d6|
+6|
+45ft

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Slow Fall 70 ft. Bonus Feat|
2d6|
+7|
+45ft

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Heavy Blows (ad.)|
2d6|
+7|
+50ft

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Martial Technique; Slow Fall 100 ft.|
2d8|
+8|
+55ft

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Bonus Feat|
2d8|
+8|
+55ft

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Slow Fall 80 ft.|
2d8|
+9|
+60ft

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Bonus Feat|
2d8|
+9|
+65ft

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Martial Technique; Slow Fall 110 ft.|
2d10|
+10|
+65ft[/table]
*: the value shown is for Medium martial artists.


Spoilered for space reasons:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Martial artists are proficient with all simple weapons, but not with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a martial artist loses his AC bonus, as well as his evasion, fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.


AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the martial artist may adds 1/2 of his class level. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the martial artist is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.


Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a martial artist may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, he may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the martial artist might make before his next action. When a martial artist reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A martial artist must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.
When using flurry of blows, a martial artist may attack only with unarmed strikes.

Greater Flurry: When a martial artist reaches 11th level, his flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack he gets from flurry of blows, he gets a second extra attack at his full base attack bonus.


Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a martial artist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A martial artistís attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a martial artist may even make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a martial artist striking unarmed. A martial artist may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a martial artistís unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A martial artistís unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. (This does not apply to feats; hence, Improved Natural Attack cannot increase a martial artist's unarmed strike damage.)
A martial artist also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Martial Artist. The unarmed damage on Table: The Martial Artist is for Medium martial artists. A Small martial artist deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large martial artist deals more damage.


Martial Technique (Ex): At levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20, a martial artist learns a martial technique, which can be chosen from the following list. Each technique may only be chosen once.

Fists of Steel: the martial artist deals a damage die more damage than usual; if he normally deals 1d6, he now deals 1d8 (1d8 becomes 1d10, 1d10 becomes 2d6, etcetera).

Flexible: the martial artist is particularly flexible, taking even more advantage of speed and technique over raw power than usual. When making unarmed strikes, he may use his Dex modifier instead of his Str modifier on attack rolls, as though he had the Weapon Finesse feat. Additionally, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC, which increases by 1 for every three levels thereafter (max. +6).

Wrestler: the martial artist may add either his Dex or Str mod on grapple checks (whichever is better), and may add a competence bonus of 1/4 his martial artist level (max. 5; round up) to grapple checks.

Mighty Trip: the martial artist may add either his Dex mod or his Str mod on trip attacks (whichever is better), and may add a competence bonus of 1/4 his martial artist level (max. 5; round up) to trip attacks.

Sprint: A martial artist who chooses this technique adds +10 ft. to his base natural movement speeds (for example, fly speeds derived from wings would be boosted, while fly speeds derived from a spell that does not grant wings would not be boosted.) He also gains Run as a bonus feat.

Armored: A martial artist with this ability is used to dealing with the weight provided by light armor. He may wear such armor while retaining his AC bonus, increase to unarmored speed, evasion and his flurry of blows ability. He is still not considered proficient with this armor, unless he has acquired this proficiency by means of multiclassing or a feat. Requirements: 4th level.

Belly Punch: A martial artist may place a punch in such a place as to stagger those who catch it. As a standard action, he may strike a creature in the stomach (or the equivalent of it), staggering it for 1d4 rounds if it fails a Fortitude save DC 10 + Ĺ martial artist level + Ĺ martial artist's strength. Creatures who wear armor, or who have more than +2 natural armor, are immune to this ability. When the martial artist's unarmed strike deals 1d10 base damage, he may use this ability on creatures who wear light armor or possess at most +6 natural armor. When his unarmed strike deals 2d6 base damage, he may do so against creatures with medium armor or at most +10 natural armor. When it deals 2d8, he may do so against creatures with heavy armor or at most +14 natural armor. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this ability. Requirements: 4th level.

Strangle: The martial artist may prevent a pinned creature from breathing; reference the rules for holding one's breath. As a creature is generally not prepared for such a maneuver, it may only hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution score, rather than double that score, as normal for holding one's breath. Creatures that are prevented from breathing are automatically prevented from speaking. Requirements: 4th level, Wrestler.

Throw Down: When grappling a creature, the martial artist may throw that creature down by making a succesful opposed grapple check. He may throw the creature up to 5ft. far for every 5 points his check exceeds that of his opponent. For every 10ft. a creature falls, it takes 1d6 damage. Requirements: 4th level, either Mighty Trip or Wrestler.

Hamstring: if he makes a succesful trip attack, the martial artist damages a creature's legs, reducing its movement speed by half. Furthermore, the target requires a standard action to stand up from prone, rather than a move action. Creatures immune to critical hits, and creatures who would not be hampered by the loss of use of a single leg are not affected by this ability. Requirements: 8th level, Mighty Trip.

Reactive Strike: As an immediate action after dodging an attack, the martial artist may make a single unarmed strike at the opponent who missed him. Requirements: 8th level, Flexible.

Speedy Attack: A martial artist who possesses this ability may make two unarmed strikes as a standard action. Should the martial artist still possess a penalty on his flurry of blows ability, this penalty applies to this ability as well. Requirements: 8th level.

Break Joint: when grappling a creature, a martial artist may attempt to break one of that creature's joints, rendering it unusable. Doing so requires a grapple check in order to get a hold of the limb, and an opposed strength check in order to break it. If the martial artist is pinning the creature, he gets a +4 bonus on the opposed strength check. This ability does not function against creatures whose joints cannot be broken (for example, if they are tentacles). Requirements: 12th level, Wrestler.

Damage Reduction: You have learned to role with the blows, gain damage reduction equal to 1/2 of your class level, rounded down.

Break Neck: when pinning a creature, a martial artist may attempt to break a creature's neck, quite likely killing it. By making a grapple check, the martial artist may inflict triple normal unarmed damage. Creatures that have no neck, or creatures whose neck is less essential, have other parts targeted. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this ability. Requirements: 16th level, Wrestler.

Transcendence: The martial artist's physical perfection has been reached. His damage reduction rises to 12 + 1/2 your class level, and +2 to any one physical stats. He no longer takes aging penalties to his ability scores and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the martial artist still dies of old age when his time is up. Requirements: 16th level, Damage Reduction.


Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a martial artist makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a martial artist is wearing no armor. A helpless martial artist does not gain the benefit of evasion.


Slow Fall (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a martial artist within armís reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first using this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. The martial artist's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his martial artist level.


Versatile Unarmed Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial artist may deal either piercing, slashing or bludgeoning damage with his unarmed strikes.


Heavy Blows (Ex): At 5th level, the martial artist's unarmed strike overcomes damage reduction as a magic weapon. At 15th, it overcomes damage reduction as an adamantine weapon.


Bonus Feat: At 7th, 13th, 14th and 19th level, a martial artist gains a bonus feat, to be chosen from the list of fighter bonus feats.


Stunning Fist (Ex): At 6th level, a martial artist acquires Stunning Fist as a bonus feat.


Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a martial artist's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless martial artist does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

kentma57
2008-04-05, 11:26 AM
New Varient: 3/4 base attack, but you can enchant your body as a magic weapon.

dman11235
2008-04-05, 04:14 PM
No, you can already enchant your body like a weapon. All you need is the Necklace of Natural Attacks. Or Kensai (for those with VoPov).