Deity Dilemma

[Lupy]

Well, I was thinking about a cool idea for a kind of pre-campaign with the characters living afterwords and having to keep a new war from breaking out.

My idea was for the Gods of different Pantheons to have a massive war involving the entire multiverse, until finally, the high/over (gods) intervene to save the multiverse. But who should be the over gods. I'm including the Greek, Norse, Forgotten Realms (megapantheon) , Dragonlance pantheons. I'm thinking of the war reaching Sigil and the Lady of Pain stepping in. Then maybe after she kills enough gods Ao, Chaos, High God (DL), Banjo and Trogdor* step in and call a truce. Who should die, and who are the high gods? Is the Lady of Pain capable of defending the city from so many Gods? :smallconfused: Any ideas are helpful.
Thanks, --Lupy

*FTW!!

[Corsec1337]

God's shouldn't have stats(personal opinion). They are so BA that pun pun can't even copy them! By giving god's stats you give the way in which to defeat them. Therefore, without stats there is no reason why the Lady of Pain could not hold off the other gods. You just need to go nuts with it.

I notice that you are missing Banjo on your list... He missed be one of the high gods.

[skywalker]

I think this may be a deity dilemma. Yes, definitely "deity." I thought we were going to be talking about food... :smallfrown:

[Jastermereel]

I think this may be a deity dilemma. Yes, definitely "deity." I thought we were going to be talking about food... :smallfrown:

Unless of course the Lady of Pain is intending to consume the divine buffet that attacks her city.

[JBento]

The Lady of Pain CAN defend Sigil from any number of invading gods. So can a goblin with a pointy stick, since gods don't work near Sigil.
"Yeh, you know all those divine ranks and cool spells and spell-like abilities. You checked those at the perimeter."
"What?! No, we didn't"
"Oooooooh, nobody told ya? Pity." WHACK:smallbiggrin:

[Lupy]

I'm sure Tiamat could find a way around that... She is very cunning, and I bet she has a grudge with the Lady of Pain...

[FlyMolo]

So your idea is that the gods have a war, and then the overgods intervene?

The regular gods should be, you know, regular gods. Lightning, etc.

The overgods are gods of something fundamental, like gravity, heat, cold, death, and so on. Or even Power.

[Gralamin]

I'm sure Tiamat could find a way around that... She is very cunning, and I bet she has a grudge with the Lady of Pain...

I doubt Tiamat stands a chance. Vecna and Asmodeus probably are the only two who do.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, Vecna could probably pull off an invasion.

LoP "You aren't a God anymore, good luck. Hehehe"

6 seconds later

Vecna, looking at the pile of ashes "I am an epic-level Lich Sorcerer who has rewritten reality before in order to gain power. Godhood isn't really all that important."

[Prometheus]

It seems a little over the top to include all those pantheons. You won't get to use them all, and it will just lose its meaning. Any one of those pantheons have more than enough to stage a war of the gods, especially counting the minor ones.

What I would suggest, is to incorporate all those pantheons by expressing the Gods as having different aspects drawn from different pantheons. I.e. Hel = Hades = Nerull etc. Whenever there isn't a god/goddess that matches up, simply add it and make it a more minor God.

In any event, don't forget the Egyptians.

[Xefas]

I doubt Tiamat stands a chance. Vecna and Asmodeus probably are the only two who do.

Heh, considering that Asmodeus is powerful enough to have Tiamat guarding the doggy door into Hell, it stands to reason he would have a far greater chance of success.

"I am the Lady of Pain!"
"I am a third of what's holding the fabric of the multiverse together. Whoopee for you." *suckles the eyeballs from her shrieking skull and dabs his mouth with a napkin made of the sewn together skin of stillborn godlings*

[Ascension]

Sigil is specifically designed to be unassailable by gods. They can't enter it. Period. I suppose they could sacrifice their godhood to get in, but Her Serenity wouldn't be pleased by that, and those who displease her don't tend to last longer than six seconds.

It would be rather funny to see several pantheons worth of depowered gods get Mazed, though. I'm sure the average god could probably escape eventually, but when they did the Lady would just kill them on sight. She doesn't generally tolerate that.

[Zeful]

I tried writing a campaign setting in which an Illithid ascended to godhood and ate the brains of 93% of the pantheon, before the remainders breached their multiverse's final boundary snapping them into another set of existences entirely.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Sigil is specifically designed to be unassailable by gods. They can't enter it. Period. I suppose they could sacrifice their godhood to get in, but Her Serenity wouldn't be pleased by that, and those who displease her don't tend to last longer than six seconds.

It would be rather funny to see several pantheons worth of depowered gods get Mazed, though. I'm sure the average god could probably escape eventually, but when they did the Lady would just kill them on sight. She doesn't generally tolerate that.

True. The Lady of Pain is apparently the second most powerful entity in the entire multiverse (second to 'the world serpent', which apparently represents the planes themselves), but is unfortunately confined to Sigil.

Vecna is essentially the batman wizard given divine ranks; yes, he came fairly close, but never stood a chance in the long run.

Asmodeus would have a lot of trouble even getting to Sigil, though - remember the restrictions keeping the Nine in Baator? Even if Asmo somehow did create a portal there, he could only do that with the approval of said Lady.



*my theory is that the reason that she hates deities/being worshipped is that if she receives even a single divine rank, Sigil, her prison, becomes anathema to her and destroys her.

[Rutee]

I'm sure Tiamat could find a way around that... She is very cunning, and I bet she has a grudge with the Lady of Pain...

Just rewrite Sigil so that Deities still work near it. Problem solved.

[hamishspence]

temporary removal of divine ranks to get into sigil: Its been done in FR fiction. Once. By Finder wyvernspur, aka "God of Reckless Fools" And just before he was leaving he could feel annoyed gaze of a powerful entity locking in on him, suggesting he left in nick of time.

So, it can work, but not for long. And retconning it out is a bit of a contradiction of a long tradition. Sigil without the forces keeping deities out wouldn't really be sigil any more.

[Illiterate Scribe]

temporary removal of divine ranks to get into sigil: Its been done in FR fiction. Once. By Finder wyvernspur, aka "God of Reckless Fools" And just before he was leaving he could feel annoyed gaze of a powerful entity locking in on him, suggesting he left in nick of time.

The fact that he could leave suggests that he was being encouraged to do so. Also, note the emphasis.


So, it can work, but not for long. And retconning it out is a bit of a contradiction of a long tradition. Sigil without the forces keeping deities out wouldn't really be sigil any more.

Exactly; it becomes Slaughterhouse of Everything No.1, as everyone converges on the place that allows you to reach anywhere via portals. Sure, you can change it another way; you could also rule that you can plane shift in and out of Ravenloft, or that Cthulhu doesn't make people go mad. But that kinda misses the point.

[hamishspence]

actually, thats what his cleric called him at end of adventure. At that time Finder only had two clerics, which is not very impressive.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How the Gods kill the LoP:

1: Take Epic Leadership
2: Use Diplomacy+Disguise to make all of your followers Fanatics in favor of the LoP.
3: Watch as she is kicked out of Sigil
4: Gank the LoP from behind with a collective force of all of the gods you can convince to help out
5: ???
6: Profit

[Illiterate Scribe]

How the Gods kill the LoP:

1: Take Epic Leadership
2: Use Diplomacy+Disguise to make all of your followers Fanatics in favor of the LoP.
3: Watch as she is kicked out of Sigil
4: Gank the LoP from behind with a collective force of all of the gods you can convince to help out
5: ???
6: Profit

I was actually under the impression that the Lady would instantly die upon leaving the Cage; either because she's somehow tied to it (the razorvine seems tied to her essence), or because whatever shut her there would turn up and kill her.

There are two problems with this plan, though.

- The Lady of Pain is, well, one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse. She killed Aoskar, the DvR 15-20 deity of the planes, in an instant, without breaking much of a sweat. One would need a very good plan for taking her down, although it's still possible (I'd go with precipitate complete breach to the base of the spire, and then lay down the smack while grappling with the nastiest stuff you've got (probably either Kord, or multiple hecatoncheires. My batman sense also tingles at the idea of timestopping, then dumping a ton of quintessence on her.)).

- She controls all planar travel in or out of Sigil, and has before been known to quarantine the entire city by cutting it off thus. It is very likely that she would notice this plan, and lock the place down.

[Ascension]

When your primary plan to defeat someone is "make them a god" that tells you something about how powerful they were in the first place.

[bosssmiley]

Sigil is called "The Cage" for a reason you know. Or, to paraphrase Rorschach in "Watchmen": "You don't get it! I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me!" :smallwink:

The Lady should (IMO) be kept symbolic; not used as a primary actor. She is, in effect, a living icon representing the always-more-to-learn, 'there's an exception to every rule (including this one)' aspect of the planes.

As for the Godwars you suggest Lupy, I'd argue for keeping it offstage. The characters hear the echoes and feel the distant aftershocks, but never see the chaos of the war itself. Let your hints and their imaginations make it more impressive and downright epic than playing it through (with all the rule-checking, squabbling over calls and stopping for snacks) could ever be.

You could have the Godwar (always mentally capitalised) be something that even the greatest powers in your campaign proper refer to it with dread and horror. Maybe have someone allude to the time before Good and Evil, or to what the Plane of Limbo was before, or to The Day the Gearworks Stopped. Keep it as the ultimate "that time we don't talk about".

Imagine the sense of scope and scale you'll impart if only one or two battered and scarred gods from each pantheon even survived the Godwar. If done right it won't come across as a darker and edgier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier) cosmic vacuum cleaner (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClicheStorm), but as a pointer that this game is set After The End (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AfterTheEnd).

One example: Hextor & Heironeous. Always mentioned in the same breath; both gods of war. But it turn out that each was only an aspect of the other. When {your choice here} died in the climactic battle of the Godwar the other was left a burned-out husk. That (relatively) feeble wreck is now The Mourning God, a new patron power of madness, grief and despair. No fixed domain. No regular temples. No permanent worshippers. Wherever people weep, wail, claw their faces, dust their heads (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo) and rage against the gods (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RageAgainstTheHeavens), he is.

Another: "Ao? Ao who? High God? There ain't one!" The throne of the pantheon is empty. None of the gods feel themselves strong enough to challenge for it. Yet. That's where the players come in...

Have the movers and shakers in the current age are squabbling over the scraps and wreckage of what went before. A single unresolved repercussion from a minor aspect of the last war could be a world-shaking threat now. Think of the vertiginous feeling that the Silmarillion creates when you realise that Sauron was nothing but a lieutenant to an even BBE-er BBEG, and there were once legions of Balrogs... :smalleek:

Oh. Errrr. What was the question again? :smallredface: